Horse x-bow

[Jarlek]

The speed bonus from a moving horse only has a minor impact on the damage you deal. The varying speed of a horse is simply not that significant compared to the speed of a bolt or arrow. From the looks of it, this is true ingame as well as reality. Different case with throwing, which probably moves at like half or a third of the speed of a bolt and arrow, and therefore the varying speed of a horse is a lot more significant.

tl;dr:
You are not going to do twice the damage because you ride towards a person, a quarter or a third increase is about the best you could hope for.

FYI, we are talking about damage done to the horse moving towards where the projectile is coming from.

The damage bonus from speed bonus is applied before armour is counted, making it matter more than it appears. My warhorse can easily survive 4 throwing lances I'm riding away from, while dying to an arrow/bolt I charge straight at. Speed bonus matters a lot for cavalry.

Gurni saying a warhorse dies almost immedialty and Kulin saying they can take thousands of hits are both correct because of speed bonus. That's one of the worse things with HC since they can stay accurate at much longer ranges than HA they can safely get that speed bonus. On my HA I charge people up close when I want to deal massive damage because of the low accuracy, with HC I can charge towards them further away and still hit+get the speed bonus.

[Teeth]

FYI, we are talking about damage done to the horse moving towards where the projectile is coming from.

Exactly the same thing lol

(click to show/hide)

FYI, we are talking about damage done to the horse moving towards where the projectile is coming from.

The damage bonus from speed bonus is applied before armour is counted, making it matter more than it appears. My warhorse can easily survive 4 throwing lances I'm riding away from, while dying to an arrow/bolt I charge straight at. Speed bonus matters a lot for cavalry.

Gurni saying a warhorse dies almost immedialty and Kulin saying they can take thousands of hits are both correct because of speed bonus. That's one of the worse things with HC since they can stay accurate at much longer ranges than HA they can safely get that speed bonus. On my HA I charge people up close when I want to deal massive damage because of the low accuracy, with HC I can charge towards them further away and still hit+get the speed bonus.

I only stated the difference in missile speed because I don't know how that carries over to damage. It is possible that 20% more missile speed means 25% more damage, but the differences you imply here, I call bullshit on that. If speed bonus really had such an effect then horse throwing would be fucking amazing. What you are seeing is a difference in builds and the random damage fudge factor I guess, no way you can attribute such differences to speed bonus for bolts and arrows.

[Joker86]

There is not a single buff or nerf which could fix the problems classes like HX or HA are causing, at least not without nerfing those classes down to unplayability. Which is no solution as well. Devs need to find something which does not have to do something with raising or lowering stats.

[Lt_Anders]

Or you guys could make HA's more of a counter to HX?

Why the fuk is it always NERF NERF NERF. Can't people actually come up with something more useful than just nerfing them?
(The reload speeds actually might be pretty nice? Or even a WPF setup better for HA's than HX or...)

[Joker86]

Well, something like a "hotfix" I could suggest here is the following thing. Keep in mind that I am not happy with that solution at all, as it poses a nerf, but until something else is done by the developers (e.g. implementing conquest mode) it's the easiest way to fix things.

Step one: make all crossbows unable to use on horseback.

Step two: create two (or how many you like) new crossbows with the same models of the hunting crossbow, the light crossbow, etc.

Step three: keep their stats (including upkeep) the same like for their old counterpart, but remove the "can't use on horseback"-tag again

Step four: lower reloading speed, accuracy, damage or whatever you like. If you want, lower upkeep a bit, but take care the new upkeep is not low enough to justify the use of those crossbows for infantry.

Step five: call them "cavalry crossbows" or something like that.

Step six: grant all horse crossbowmen a free respec and all owners of heirloomed light and hunting crossbows a free heirloom point reset for their weapons, as we want to stay fair, don't we?

[JackieChan]

Well, something like a "hotfix" I could suggest here is the following thing. Keep in mind that I am not happy with that solution at all, as it poses a nerf, but until something else is done by the developers (e.g. implementing conquest mode) it's the easiest way to fix things.

Step one: make all crossbows unable to use on horseback.

Step two: create two (or how many you like) new crossbows with the same models of the hunting crossbow, the light crossbow, etc.

Step three: keep their stats (including upkeep) the same like for their old counterpart, but remove the "can't use on horseback"-tag again

Step four: lower reloading speed, accuracy, damage or whatever you like. If you want, lower upkeep a bit, but take care the new upkeep is not low enough to justify the use of those crossbows for infantry.

Step five: call them "cavalry crossbows" or something like that.

Step six: grant all horse crossbowmen a free respec and all owners of heirloomed light and hunting crossbows a free heirloom point reset for their weapons, as we want to stay fair, don't we?

As this is ever going to happen. 

Imo either reduce speed bonus for HX, dmg or accuracy, but not all at once like you did with HA (which made the class utterly useless)

With good speed bonus on my HA I can 1shot STR tincans too. Worse accuracy, though.

I am really surpised you can do that, most times i try shooting people with armor above a certain weight, arrows bounces 50% of the time or do no dmg (fully loomed gear btw).

[Michael]

Just two short questions:

Why footmen-rangers dont shoot mounted crossbowmen? At least the (unarmored) horse should be easy to hit.

Why melee horsemen dont hunt down crossbowmen on a plated horse? 

[Joker86]

As this is ever going to happen. 

Imo either reduce speed bonus for HX, dmg or accuracy, but not all at once like you did with HA (which made the class utterly useless)

Why shouldn't that happen? It's the easiest way and requires the least programming work, in difference to all the other, more "dynamic" ideas (like seperate speed bonus calculation for HXs and whatnot). Keep in mind the devs are occupied with M:BG, and cRPG will most likely never see any major update again.

And the things I listed up above were not meant to represent the changes I would make. I just wanted to point out some things which could be changed, which means you can change one, two or more of those values. But not neccessarily all.

Just two short questions:

Why footmen-rangers dont shoot mounted crossbowmen? At least the (unarmored) horse should be easy to hit.

Any HX with a brain stays away from enemy ranged or tries to catch them unaware. And there are easier targets than those rather fast moving HXs.

Why melee horsemen dont hunt down crossbowmen on a plated horse?

The same reason why archers don't hunt down shielders or cavalry don't hunt down pikemen. The HX is moving faster than the plated horse, but dishing out piercing damage. It would be one of the most stupid ways to get your steed killed.

[JackieChan]

Why shouldn't that happen? It's the easiest way and requires the least programming work, in difference to all the other, more "dynamic" ideas (like seperate speed bonus calculation for HXs and whatnot). Keep in mind the devs are occupied with M:BG, and cRPG will most likely never see any major update again.

It woulnt happen because this is crpg, every thing done to fix a class was to nerfs its stats. After thinking about it, even asking for a change in speed bonus for HX would be to much. I dont think the fact that devs are busy with M:BG would change anything of this. Crpg has been about nerfing and buffing class in the most simple ways , i dont think this will change anytime soon.

According to the devs there is going to be a "major" update in the future ( WM recalculation and new XP system). Maybe they were just empty promises.

[Jarlek]

Exactly the same thing lol
I only stated the difference in missile speed because I don't know how that carries over to damage. It is possible that 20% more missile speed means 25% more damage, but the differences you imply here, I call bullshit on that. If speed bonus really had such an effect then horse throwing would be fucking amazing. What you are seeing is a difference in builds and the random damage fudge factor I guess, no way you can attribute such differences to speed bonus for bolts and arrows.

Horse throwing can do amazing amount of damage. Ask zlisch how many survives a charge+lance in the chest. The reason you don't see many of them is that both HA and HC is much more accurate while carrying a lot more ammo.

Teeth, the speed bonus does affect it a lot. If you don't believe me, just head over to EU3, find an archer or crossbowman and compare the damage done to your horse while charging him at full speed and when riding away from him. Similarly: when I shoot a horse that rides away from me with my longbow I get 1 point. When I shoot a horse riding towards me I get 3-4.

EDIT:

I am really surpised you can do that, most times i try shooting people with armor above a certain weight, arrows bounces 50% of the time or do no dmg (fully loomed gear btw).

On headshots, 6 pd and bodkins, yes. Doesn't happen all the time but on a straight charge I can get great damage. Using a +3 Bow, btw, since the lower missile speed gives you a better speed bonus. The extra damage from the speed bonus + the 2.1x damage from headshots all buffing the damage BEFORE armour counts = shitloads of damage.

[Rumblood]

Exactly the same thing lol
I only stated the difference in missile speed because I don't know how that carries over to damage. It is possible that 20% more missile speed means 25% more damage, but the differences you imply here, I call bullshit on that. If speed bonus really had such an effect then horse throwing would be fucking amazing. What you are seeing is a difference in builds and the random damage fudge factor I guess, no way you can attribute such differences to speed bonus for bolts and arrows.

Horse throwing is amazing. The reason is isn't fucking amazing is lack of accuracy, lack of range, and lack of ammo.

Just two short questions:

Why footmen-rangers dont shoot mounted crossbowmen? At least the (unarmored) horse should be easy to hit.

Why melee horsemen dont hunt down crossbowmen on a plated horse?

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[CrazyCracka420]

This one time, a guy killed me when he normally wouldn't, please nerf him.  Also "x" class took away 50% of my health, and "y" class only ever takes away 25%.  Nerf "x" please.

Signed,

c-rpg community

[Lt_Anders]

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I present to you the wonderful world of HX:

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EDIT: Added +3 Light Crossbow full accuracy

Is this some kind of a joke or a bug?

The accuracy on this build is INCREDIBLE. And it is only level 30 STF. I could probably go 15/24 or 12/27 on level 32.

Riding 8 and horse speed 43 means I can't be caught by almost anybody while I cruise around with  with my total of 56 pierce damage (not counting speed bonus).

Even if I did not use loomed items it would be riding 8 on horse speed 41 with 43 pierce damage (again, not counting speed bonus).

p.s. excuse my typos on the image

Please Note: Dedicated Horse Crossbow. I don't think anyone's arguing a dedicated HC. Dedicated ANYTHING is good at it's class.
Put up a Compairson picture of a HA and lets see.
(You'll have less accuracy, faster rate of fire, and lower damage at normal shooting range)

[Torost]

On or off horseback ..

Crossbowing in crpg have always been way too viable compared to other forms of fighting.
(upkeep,looming,accuracy,restrictions on armor,dmg,skillpoints,playstyle,slots)

All the small things sum up to a big advantage.

It has been blatantly obvious to anyone willing to look for the past years.
Unfortunatly some of the unbalancers had a crossbowfetish.

The pope did not ban them for nothing, they were OP in real life too back then.
So it is realism , but this is a game....

I am pretty sure, that if crossbows were REMOVED from crpg.
EVERYONE would have a better time.

I gave up the anticrossbowcrusade long time ago, maybe someone more naive than me can take over?

[Jarold]

On or off horseback ..

Crossbowing in crpg have always been way too viable compared to other forms of fighting.
(upkeep,looming,accuracy,restrictions on armor,dmg,skillpoints,playstyle,slots)

All the small things sum up to a big advantage.

It has been blatantly obvious to anyone willing to look for the past years.
Unfortunatly some of the unbalancers had a crossbowfetish.

The pope did not ban them for nothing, they were OP in real life too back then.
So it is realism , but this is a game....

I am pretty sure, that if crossbows were REMOVED from crpg.
EVERYONE would have a better time.

I gave up the anticrossbowcrusade long time ago, maybe someone more naive than me can take over?

Crossbows should not be removed, they're an integral part of the game. Should their damage be nerfed? Now I don't have anything to say on that but we're talking about HX not all crossbow classes.....or are we!