It's mostly a thing with "curving" stabs, really.i know, but if you have a weapon of 2.5 m long you shouldnt be stabbing someone who is hugging you. especially not when you also have such insane reach.
btw all polearm pierce is a bit imba. mostly for long weapons - hit 2-3 times faster then animationi cant see what you mean here. never saw something like this.
i know, but if you have a weapon of 2.5 m long you shouldnt be stabbing someone who is hugging you. especially not when you also have such insane reach.
Hoplites are good in crowd fights, but shit at fighting alone vs >= 1 enemy.they are surely good enough at 1v1, maybe not untouchable, but still extremely effective.
Seems pretty balanced overall, I see no reason to nerf them. Stab got buffed indeed, but it also applies for pikes etc, even 1h stab is usable now.
Just "un-fix" the stabs. I don't remember those facehug stabs being possible prior to the turn rate nerf. Sure you could wiggle them instead, but that was slower to hit.ah yes, the turn rate nerf that applies to the lenght of the weapon instead of the actual reach
Also chambers.
hoplite stabs were buffed by letting them connect earlier in the animation.Once again you are ascribing qualities to hoplites exclusively that go for other weapons as well, including your precious long awlpike. Pretty much all stabs can connect early in the animation, or the so called instastab. I can do it with a pike, a longspear, an ashwood with shield, an ashwood without shield, a long awlpike and a Danish. Same technique applies to all. In fact it is harder the longer a weapon gets, instastabbing is easier with a long awlpike than an ashwood pike with shield, fact. It's just that you don't need it as much. Sure some good players can do instastabs quite consistently, but 80% of the scrubs who also play hoplite now don't even dare to try. Hell, I've played long stab polearm for like a 1000 hours now and I still fail like 30% of my kickstabs.
a ashwood pike can litterally hit on facehug distance if you curve your stab enoughWanna see me do it with a longspear or a long awlpike, this is not unique. The only weapon which cannot possibly stab at facehug distance is the pike, because it simply has no hitbox for the first meter in front of the user. Yet with correct movement you can kickstab with a pike, it's a challenge but so rewarding when you pull it off.
Just "un-fix" the stabs. I don't remember those facehug stabs being possible prior to the turn rate nerf. Sure you could wiggle them instead, but that was slower to hit.Indeed, the stab change after the turn rate nerf broke stabbing for all weapons, not just hoplites. There was a minimum time animations required before they hit, which was always the same. You could chamber based on timing, because you knew how long it would take for the stab to hit. While we are at it, remove the turn rate, in these times of perfect blocking faster turn rates spice the dumbed down combat up a little.
im happy we somewhat agree, however i would like to repeat that i am aware that also normal polearms can stab from this close. However, they dont benefit the same reach.(click to show/hide)
I don't think the problem is Hoplite is too strong, its more like people fell out of favour with other poles and hoplites are fotm atm. You get the omni block of 1 handers and anti ranged, and 2 d poles don't really bring as much to the table
Its also a case of whatever Byzantium is using is suddenly OP. If chase goes 1 hander + shield you will say 1 handers are OP
Hoplites are good in crowd fights, but shit at fighting alone vs >= 1 enemy.This is not true,and that is what is the problem.
Seems pretty balanced overall, I see no reason to nerf them. Stab got buffed indeed, but it also applies for pikes etc, even 1h stab is usable now.
if there is hardly a counter to a class, it is considered too strong. Very low skill players can still use hoplite and be effective enough, not as strong as teeth, knitler and others but still too effective for their skill level. Nobody likes to be killed by some stupid game mechanic that obviously gives the edge to a certain class. You cant stab from a distance because they have the lenght bonus and if you stab from very close they have that shitty intsastab.
the problem is not that they have insta stab or very big reach or no need for manual blocking. Its the combination of ALL these things, that combination beats every other class.
I'm not a hoplite so change it.
Ughh....i have a hoplite alt wich is quite low lvl, i can get valour by sitting back in my chair and doing some half assed stabs without actually having to be sharp all the time. If i play my main, i am locked on the screen and i am focussed all the time, because otherwise i just die.
I can agree somewhat with the 1v1 stuff. (Especially the armor crutch + regular spear hoplite) Although it really isn't as bad as you make it sound.
i have a hoplite alt wich is quite low lvl, i can get valour by sitting back in my chair and doing some half assed stabs without actually having to be sharp all the time. If i play my main, i am locked on the screen and i am focussed all the time, because otherwise i just die.
Now, perhaps a slight change in weapon speed when using a spear with a shield would help?
(Something very minor like a -1 or -2 to speed when using with a shield.) I know weight of the shield already slows you a bit but its just an idea.
The reach for most hoplite weapons isn't really that incredibly long. All of them except for Bamboo Spear are less than Long Spear (5 more with +50 reach from hoplite mode on base 200).
The stab on a German is (AFAIK 2h stab adds +80 length to listed stat) 204 compared to shield + Ashwood Pikes 206, so pretty close and cut damage side-swings to boot.
@ Necrowave Using an item in hoplite mode already provides a malus to speed IIRC. Maybe damage too? Not sure on that.
Hoplites are beatable, especielly if the hoplite ain't a pro. Just try to use that big fat thing between your ears. 2d polearm's could need some sort of buff tough, since they got all weird after turn-rate changes.The funny thing is that the 2d polearms are probably the best to use against hoplites (and pikes). Especially the halberd is a beast against hoplites.
the only thing that annoys me when im hopliting is this tendancy to hit everyting on the right of my lance eventhough i don't even touch them! :evil:
It's funny how hoplites with a giant spear have no problem stabbing someone in facehug range, but try that with a short sword, and it'll just glance.
Why can't spears/2h sword be for stabbing people far away, and 1h swords for stabbing up close?
+1
It's funny how hoplites with a giant spear have no problem stabbing someone in facehug range, but try that with a short sword, and it'll just glance.You know why they have no problem doing it? Because they practiced it, extensively. If they can't do it they are quite fucked. It is not half as easy as it looks, it requires you to look up and then stab down, greatly reducing your vision and aim. It is hardly like all the hoplites can do it consistently, I see loads of them that do not even try.
Hoplites do not have that luxury, so they spent time refining their stabbing technique. If you could be arsed to do the same with your 1h I think you'll be quite surprised.
Stabbing someone in facehug range requires silly theatrics for both classes, but my point is that stabbing someone that's close to you with a short stabby thing shouldn't require you to do anything other than 1. point stabby thing at enemy 2. stab them. With the current implementation, doing that is the worst strategy and will always glance.It is irrelevant to the case then. You can open a new topic about one handed thrusts if you think it is Underpowered.
Stabbing a facehugger with a spear is rightfully difficult, but wrongfully difficult for a short sword.
You know why they have no problem doing it? Because they practiced it, extensively. If they can't do it they are quite fucked. It is not half as easy as it looks, it requires you to look up and then stab down, greatly reducing your vision and aim. It is hardly like all the hoplites can do it consistently, I see loads of them that do not even try.
Now I tell you that 1h stab works fine up close, if you glance, try harder. The age old technique of starting it next to the target and turning it inwards works fine, even for 1h. In fact it is possible to do it sideways due to way higher turnrates, instead of the quirky up down method, which makes it way more usable. The only reason you think it glances, is because it is not a necessity for you to learn it, because you can fall back on leftswings. Hoplites do not have that luxury, so they spent time refining their stabbing technique. If you could be arsed to do the same with your 1h I think you'll be quite surprised.
It is irrelevant to the case then. You can open a new topic about one handed thrusts if you think it is Underpowered.
You are right, but the most critical difference between 1h and pole stabs remains 5 damage points.Yeah well, I don't think the stabs of a stab only weapon should really carry over one to one to a 4 directional weapon. Besides, I am quite sure there is still some damage malus to using a polearm with a shield.
Besides, I am quite sure there is still some damage malus to using a polearm with a shield.
You are right, but the most critical difference between 1h and pole stabs remains 5 damage points.
What about the abilty to spam the other 3 attack directions 1H have? The speed difference between 1H and Pole? And a lot of top tier 1Hs have the same damage as the War Spear and Red Tassel Spear.
I'm not, +3 ashwoods+shield probably one-shot me more than anything but Morningstars, and I have 56 body armor and 53 hp. I frequently notice them doing more damage than +3 steel picks too, largely owing to the ease of achieving full speed bonus on thrust attacks.
To Phew: 53 hp is nothing. You are getting hit by 6-8PS and a piercing weapon that is very slow and thus able to rack up a large speed bonus. If you don't invest in IF, you are not investing in staying alive.
I still get one-shot rarely enough that I remember what does it. And there is no way Hoplites would be one-shotting me if there was a damage penalty associated with 1h spear usage.
I never called for hoplite nerfs anyway, I just said people would bitch less about them if 1h short swords were more effective in facehug range than 1h spears.
Losing to a single hoplite is your own fault for being impatient.manual blocking needs some more impatience than hiding behind a shield waiting for the correct moment.
no_rules can't you just play instead of starting lame QQ-nerf threads? Obviously it's easier to bitch on the forums then adapting to the fighting style of different classes.or choosing a different name in that sense.
snip
Also, Shemaforash, the ability to outreach? We have 1 stab attack, an attack that is designed both ingame and in real life to outreach the enemy. You have 3-4 different attacks, including a stab of your own with the correct weapon. Don't forget, due to us having a very slow stab attack, you can easily eliminate the range difference by either downblocking or holding up a shield while en route to us. If your complaint is about them outreaching you during group fights, that is called teamwork. If you want to try and show something similar of your own, bring a long spear, pike, or greatmaul. Pikes/Longspears outreach the hoplites, and a greatmaul can crushthrough the shield if they overextend.
What about the abilty to spam the other 3 attack directions 1H have?
The speed difference between 1H and Pole?
And a lot of top tier 1Hs have the same damage as the War Spear and Red Tassel Spear.
it's * 0.85 guaranteed penalty if you use a 2h/polearm on a horse or together with a shield...
another * 0.85 if it's a polearm...
and another * 0.9 if it's a 2h that can't be wielded in 1 hand on horseback
The penalty with shield modifier is for damage, and a 30% reduction in damage seems to be accurate. All polearms are slower when used with a shield compared to when used two handed, even those without the penalty with shield modifier. The difference in time per attack depends on the weapon speed. The equations for time per attack verses weapon speed with 1 proficiency are:
Time per attack for polearms used with two hands = -0.0124 seconds * (weapon speed) + 2.3368 seconds
Time per attack for polearms used with a shield = -0.0195 seconds * (weapon speed) + 3.257 seconds
Where those equations are coming from can be found in this thread (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.0.html) if you are interested. The percent increase in time per attack for a polearm used with a shield compared to used two handed is:
Speed 104 Staff: 17%
Speed 98 Spear: 20%
Speed 95 War Spear: 21%
Speed 92 Awlpike: 22%
Speed 90 Bamboo Spear: 23%
Speed 75 Heavy Lance: 28%
The percentages remain constant regardless of user proficiency as the reduction in time per attack with increasing proficiency is proportional to the time per attack at 1 proficiency and the reduction in time per attack appears to be constant at ~6.5% per 100 proficiency for all weapon animations.
Also nerf hoplites, buff heavy lances, etc etc
manual blocking needs some more impatience than hiding behind a shield waiting for the correct moment.
Heavy Lance hoplite is the most underrated hoplite, so hell yeah, buff Heavy Lances.
Great Lance hoplite is the most OP hoplite...Just need a buddy with two coconuts walking behind him to activate unmounted couch attacks.
You know why they have no problem doing it? Because they practiced it, extensively. If they can't do it they are quite fucked. It is not half as easy as it looks, it requires you to look up and then stab down, greatly reducing your vision and aim. It is hardly like all the hoplites can do it consistently, I see loads of them that do not even try.1h stab glances at higher ranges though.
Now I tell you that 1h stab works fine up close, if you glance, try harder. The age old technique of starting it next to the target and turning it inwards works fine, even for 1h. In fact it is possible to do it sideways due to way higher turnrates, instead of the quirky up down method, which makes it way more usable. The only reason you think it glances, is because it is not a necessity for you to learn it, because you can fall back on leftswings. Hoplites do not have that luxury, so they spent time refining their stabbing technique. If you could be arsed to do the same with your 1h I think you'll be quite surprised.
1h stab glances at higher ranges though.
So do spears.
So do spears.Not nearly as badly, and the weapons I'm using 90% of the time are throwing lances, espadas, and boar spears.
Easily the most boring infantry class to fight against, i used to hate fighting against elite scimitar leftswings and huscarlshield users, but hoplites are way way way more boring to fight.
Cant hoplites get an overhead or anything? Instastab over and over and over, atm i tend to just run away and find someone else to pester :/
Er, maybe just buff stabs? :)38p German Greatsword? Why yes, don't mind if I do.
38p German Greatsword? Why yes, don't mind if I do.I was talking about 1h specifically and to a lesser extent, a few polearms but polearm stab is probably balanced.
I'd quote you, but there a few posts you make me laugh on Shaksie.I'm glad I provide you with humour!
To start, you downvoted me on polearms glancing at long ranges. Yes, they do, and when it happens it brings very nasty stun. I also like how you even mention in a post what happens when polearm stabs glance or are blocked.
Second, your post on the turn nerf? All I read is "In my Opinion" "-I- am bad at this" "-I- am bad at that." To you I say what I have told everyone else, once you get use to the turn nerf and begin to compensate you will be fine.
Third,he is talking about the German Greatsword and he is correct on the damage because we are talking about polearms(this is a thread about polearms, not 1h or 2h). Most two handed swords have a polearm mode, the German Greatsword variation has a 34-35 pierce stab attack. (So if it is 34, he may be off 1p)Tydeus is bad
I was actually referring to the old days when it really had 34p base and was 38 loomed, with a 2h stab animation. First weapon I heirloomed in crpg. As much as I look back on those days with rose tinted goggles, I'm still fully capable of realizing that shit was op as fuck.While that is pretty disgusting, it's not relevant good broseph.
If a hoplite can kick well and his spear isn't too slow, he can very easily S key, kick you then stab you in the face which does hurt quite a lot.
If they still know how to wiggle their spear, they can hit you when you facehug them as well.
If you fall for such an obvious ploy, you deserve to be hit. Don't walk right into someone who is visibly positioning themselves for a kick.
Try downblocking, it works wonders. Better yet, if you are a 2h, use your crazy stab animation.
If you fall for such an obvious ploy, you deserve to be hit. Don't walk right into someone who is visibly positioning themselves for a kick.So, should I treat every single S key press as being a ploy for kick? Hoplites simply must S key so kicking is not an obvious ploy and if they are good then it is significantly harder.
Try downblocking, it works wonders. Better yet, if you are a 2h, use your crazy stab animation.
Have you seen how easy it is to land a kick now?This!
I'm glad I can educate the children.
Strong mathematics my friend, 38-34 is not 1.
Shaksie, I'm curious, what class do you play yourself?Recently retired to archery.
I'm going to ignore the rest of the post because I've now learned that you are as smart as a broken stove. But since education is important for little kids, I feel it is my duty to help you not fail mathematics. Given the base of 34p to the greatsword stab in polearm mode, the fact we are talking about a loomed greatsword, and Tydeus mentioning 38p as the final result. My response to him being possibly off 1p is actually correct. Here is why: When you loom something 3 times, you get +3 damage as a final result. However, oddities have existed such as the great maul receiving +4 damage in the past. I did not know if it worked that way for polearm mode 2hs.Actually no, Great Sword does not get +3 to stab damage, only items with near balanced swing/stab get +3 to both.
Now then, I never was good at word problems so I'll assume you are just as bad. So here are numbers. X being whether or not the sword gets the 1 extra damage or not. So x = 0, 1
34+3 +x= 38
37+(1)=38
37+(0)=37
38-37=1
The more you know.
Also, for the topic's sake. Yes, a Hoplite's usage of the S key is akin to a magician reaching into his bag of tricks. You never know what may come out, but you know it is most likely bad for you so you shouldn't peak your head in.
Typical. Now that hoplite is a viable class, people want to nerf it to the ground.the battle server looks like 30% hoplite and 40% 2H. I hate both classes. not because they are 'viable'. but because of the fact that they dont have any class counters. they counter every single class. (except 2H maybe)
About hoplite population increasing, the medieval footman was most commonly armed with a spear and a shield of some kind. The "Hoplite" class, or to a few people, the "What a guy in the middle ages would most likely be using" class is finally getting a little bit of love.
On that note, I find it extremely ironic that the people who have problems with seeing more Spearmen around don't see anything wrong with 70% of the team consisting of Skyrim fantasy characters wielding Greatswords, which is still how the battle server looks today.
Have you seen how easy it is to land a kick now?
the battle server looks like 30% hoplite and 40% 2H. I hate both classes. not because they are 'viable'. but because of the fact that they dont have any class counters. they counter every single class. (except 2H maybe)
2h are countered by ranged, and hoplites are countered by people able to perform this sequence: downblock, attack, downblock, attack...Shows how much you know about this game. Skirmisher anyone?
I'd say the classes without counters are HA/HX, moreso now that crossbow sidearms are no longer an option for 2h heroes. But "stand behind a tree and wait for master of field" is a counter of sorts.
Yes, I think I have seen it happen a staggering total of about two times in battle since it was implemented, of which one was done by me just for the sake of it. Truly worth being noted in a balance argument.
Have you seen how easy it is to chamber-kick now?
Have you seen how easy it is to land a kick now?l2jump
Have you seen how easy it is to chamber-kick now?
the battle server looks like 30% hoplite and 40% 2H. I hate both classes. not because they are 'viable'. but because of the fact that they dont have any class counters. they counter every single class. (except 2H maybe)
2h are countered by ranged, and hoplites are countered by people able to perform this sequence: downblock, attack, downblock, attack...
Well apparently people finally realised that teamwork is effective, and hoplites are the class which benefits the most from fighting in group. This could be a reason why we see more and more of them. The only problem I see when fighting hoplites in 1 v 1 is that it takes a long time to take one down.Unless they're purely holding S and blocking it really doesn't, it's fairly easy to get behind shields or chamber their stabs if they're playing the least bit notjustholdingblock.
I assume this to be a shallow troll post.
Yup. I actually wrote a proper response, just the forum ate it so I typed that bit instead.
Rather than hoplite being nerfed, i wouldn't mind some more love for the 1D and 2D polearms.
If you consider an hoplite being hopeless in 1v1, then what is your choice of word when it's a longspear in 1v1 ? Kick/stab with a longspear is pretty hard (well, the stab is).
They also need to manual block, compared to shielders, and most of their thrusts will end up with them getting staggered when blocked, you don't have the time to correctly block, except sideways.
You also have the same strange "i hit someone 10 cm to the right of my aim, who was obviously a teammate, wtf". Wich could get a little fix, since it's silly.
So yes, hoplites are stronger than 1d and 2d polearms. But OP ? No. No. No no no.
I recall some polearms had a "penalty with shield" tag on the website, but not all. I don't know if it's gone for all of them, or there for all of them. Or maybe only some polearms still get the penalty.Nope
Nope
Nope to which? I'm pretty sure the tag was there back in the days of the white website.You're probably thinking of usable with shield, pretty sure you can't set some poles to get penalties and some to not.
"Penalty with shield" has not done anything since the beta. It was left over code, and the cRPG team recently removed the flag from the item file as it does nothing. Holding a polearm in one hand causes it to do 30% less damage and reduces the attack speed significantly. The speed penalty makes the faster spear weapons used with one hand as slow as the slowest one handed weapons, and the slower spear weapons used with one hand are as slow as the slowest two handed weapons. I have posted exact numbers for the speed penalty elsewhere (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2624.msg46112.html#msg46112).
Native and very old crpg did have a "penalty with shield" tag on some polearms, however I believe cmp once mentioned that the tag is actually broken and doesn't do anything, which is presumably why it got removed in crpg.
Correction, waltf4 said it:
If this is indeed true, I find it difficult to believe because of my experience using a broad short sword (one of the fastest 1h weapons) being slower than some spears used by hoplites.Are you serious?.. Hoplite's spear isn't faster. How did you come to such conclusion? Tried to spam a hoplite and failed at it?
So even with a speed decrease, they can still stab faster then 1h users.1h swords can stab very quickly, it just requires some odd wiggling. I was partial to stabbing just slightly over peoples' heads, and bringing the sword down after a split second. This works far better with a higher FoV setting, since with the default FoV you will be effectively blind while looking up.
Are you serious?.. Hoplite's spear isn't faster. How did you come to such conclusion? Tried to spam a hoplite and failed at it?
If this is indeed true, I find it difficult to believe because of my experience using a broad short sword (one of the fastest 1h weapons) being slower than some spears used by hoplites.That is just you being shit
1h: 0.35+0.62+0.3
pole: 0.35+0.6+0.3
(ready+release+continue in seconds, before being affected by wpf)
It's him being shit, I probably use the 1h stab a lot more than 99% of the other players.
Maybe it's not him being shit?
No idea how the speed penalty affects these numbers. From my personal experience, it seems the ready time can be pretty slow for the polearm, but upon release it's always fast.
It's him being shit, I probably use the 1h stab a lot more than 99% of the other players.
I guess me playing 18 generations using primarily 1h stab weapons means I have no authority in this field.That means you've probably used the 1h stab more than me, but it is still just you being shit.
We are both within stab range, then prepare to stab at the same time, then I die because their stab fired first. (Not a failed chamber attempt)