hoplite needs a serious nerf

[Zanze]

Losing to a single hoplite is your own fault for being impatient. Losing to a group of them is due to it being a support class that enjoys numbers, unless they are all hoplites. I am with Teeth on this one. We practice wiggling our spears to hit you at close range because that is the only tactic that the majority of players use against us. We adapted in order to counter it. As people are now facehugging while...holding a downblock? I am now forced to learn to kick stab in order to adapt.

Many times, I am forced to suck up my pride and actually switch to a sidearm. People kick-chambering me and patiently downblocking while whittling down my shield is becoming too common. There are people learning to counter hoplites, believe me, its not that hard.

The class is fine, you need to adapt. For the record, Long spears and pikes can also stab at facehug range. While I can't do it with the pike, Relit somehow manages to pull it off. Then again, I've never seen him not using a pike in the years he has played this game.

Also, Shemaforash, the ability to outreach? We have 1 stab attack, an attack that is designed both ingame and in real life to outreach the enemy. You have 3-4 different attacks, including a stab of your own with the correct weapon. Don't forget, due to us having a very slow stab attack, you can easily eliminate the range difference by either downblocking or holding up a shield while en route to us. If your complaint is about them outreaching you during group fights,  that is called teamwork. If you want to try and show something similar of your own, bring a long spear, pike, or greatmaul. Pikes/Longspears outreach the hoplites, and a greatmaul can crushthrough the shield if they overextend.

To Phew: 53 hp is nothing. You are getting hit by 6-8PS and a piercing weapon that is very slow and thus able to rack up a large speed bonus. If you don't invest in IF, you are not investing in staying alive.

[Pentecost]

I'm not, +3 ashwoods+shield probably one-shot me more than anything but Morningstars, and I have 56 body armor and 53 hp. I frequently notice them doing more damage than +3 steel picks too, largely owing to the ease of achieving full speed bonus on thrust attacks.

You have 56 body armor, but what's your leg armor? Unless you've changed them for something else since I last ran into you on siege, you use Rus Cavalry Boots, which means that any spearman with a brain will just stab you in the legs. I know that I, for one, usually opt to stab people in the legs over the body unless I see them wearing Schynbaulds or something, simply because so many people stack body armor but skimp on their leg armor. It's like they don't realize that just as you wear a good helmet mainly to protect you against 1h, you should wear decent boots to protect you against spears.

Also, if you're still glancing with the 1h thrust a lot, I would recommend just spending some time practicing it extensively. A lot of people, myself included, had gotten in the habit of using it only rarely after the turn speed change, with the obvious result that their skill with it declined. Once you get used to the range and timing on it again, you'll find it's actually very good now with the dynamic turn speeds. Why else do you think heirloomed Side Swords have suddenly become so sought after?

[Phew]

To Phew: 53 hp is nothing. You are getting hit by 6-8PS and a piercing weapon that is very slow and thus able to rack up a large speed bonus. If you don't invest in IF, you are not investing in staying alive.

I still get one-shot rarely enough that I remember what does it. And there is no way Hoplites would be one-shotting me if there was a damage penalty associated with 1h spear usage.

I never called for hoplite nerfs anyway, I just said people would bitch less about them if 1h short swords were more effective in facehug range than 1h spears.

[Konrax]

What still baffles me is the rate at which a polearm user can stab compared to 1h.

As I posted earlier in this thread a hoplite with say the exact same spec, and shield, just a warspear vs my broad short sword.

Spear user can stab faster than I can, despite having a higher speed weapon.

They get a reach and speed advantage on the stab DESPITE having a faster 1h weapon.

[Spa_geh_tea]

I still get one-shot rarely enough that I remember what does it. And there is no way Hoplites would be one-shotting me if there was a damage penalty associated with 1h spear usage.

I never called for hoplite nerfs anyway, I just said people would bitch less about them if 1h short swords were more effective in facehug range than 1h spears.

Only a speed penalty which indirectly generates a damage penalty.

Also, stop giving into the 2h ploy. You are so blind.....the 2h enemy is pitting hoplites against another. I am a hoplite, both skilled in 1h and pole. A true hoplite, who somehow learned to ride a pony....besides the point.

Spearshielders are not OP. It is the gimpiest class in the game unless coupled by other players with 2d or more weapons. 1h is also a gimpy class, not as bad as spearshields but almost.

We have a common enemy, let us stand together to fight off the glitchy, game abusing, easymode 2h scum of the earth.

Unite!

[no_rules_just_play]

Losing to a single hoplite is your own fault for being impatient.

manual blocking needs some more impatience than hiding behind a shield waiting for the correct moment.

[Berserkadin]

no_rules can't you just play instead of starting lame QQ-nerf threads? Obviously it's easier to bitch on the forums then adapting to the fighting style of different classes.

[Ronin]

no_rules can't you just play instead of starting lame QQ-nerf threads? Obviously it's easier to bitch on the forums then adapting to the fighting style of different classes.

or choosing a different name in that sense.

[Gurnisson]

snip

Hoplites and shielders gimped? The fuck man, they're the most powerful infantry classes

[Shemaforash]

Also, Shemaforash, the ability to outreach? We have 1 stab attack, an attack that is designed both ingame and in real life to outreach the enemy. You have 3-4 different attacks, including a stab of your own with the correct weapon. Don't forget, due to us having a very slow stab attack, you can easily eliminate the range difference by either downblocking or holding up a shield while en route to us. If your complaint is about them outreaching you during group fights,  that is called teamwork. If you want to try and show something similar of your own, bring a long spear, pike, or greatmaul. Pikes/Longspears outreach the hoplites, and a greatmaul can crushthrough the shield if they overextend.

What I wrote wasn't meant to be taken that seriously, it was more of a horrible response to a horrible argument by Korgoth.

[Kafein]

What about the abilty to spam the other 3 attack directions 1H have?

Spam the overhead ? Spam the right swing ? Yeah sure.

The speed difference between 1H and Pole?

Which in terms of actual combat gives the advantage to polearms. 1h may have shiny speed stats, but it doesn't matter at all against weapons that inflict full damage on the first active animation frame.

And a lot of top tier 1Hs have the same damage as the War Spear and Red Tassel Spear.

Usually "a lot" doesn't mean three, even more so when all other 4D 1h have glancefest stabs (~22p, yay). Also those few 1h that are not completely horrible at stabbing get peasant tier damage on swings, unlike spears which get 20ish blunt. That's not great but at least it doesn't bounce on 40 armor.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Fighting against a hoplite in one on one is piss easy, and in a group fight unless it is a really good hoplite (oh wait, there is no skill in being a hoplite, all hoplites suck, I'm the best player, hoplites must be op) or there are large amounts of them and normal infantry focusing on you.
Also, how many of the crybabies here have actually done a hoplite?
And to the argument of hoplites being able to hit early on, no, they can't hit that freaking early on, I can spam even the best hoplites to death with my espada without even turning into my swings as long as I don't let him create distance between us.

[Canary]

For the record, there is still a penalty to both speed and damage:

it's * 0.85 guaranteed penalty if you use a 2h/polearm on a horse or together with a shield...
 another * 0.85 if it's a polearm...
 and another * 0.9 if it's a 2h that can't be wielded in 1 hand on horseback

^that's for damage.

The following is how it works for speed:

The penalty with shield modifier is for damage, and a 30% reduction in damage seems to be accurate. All polearms are slower when used with a shield compared to when used two handed, even those without the penalty with shield modifier. The difference in time per attack depends on the weapon speed. The equations for time per attack verses weapon speed with 1 proficiency are:

Time per attack for polearms used with two hands = -0.0124 seconds * (weapon speed) + 2.3368 seconds
Time per attack for polearms used with a shield     = -0.0195 seconds * (weapon speed) + 3.257 seconds

Where those equations are coming from can be found in this thread if you are interested. The percent increase in time per attack for a polearm used with a shield compared to used two handed is:

Speed 104 Staff: 17%
Speed 98 Spear: 20%
Speed 95 War Spear: 21%
Speed 92 Awlpike: 22%
Speed 90 Bamboo Spear: 23%
Speed 75 Heavy Lance: 28%

The percentages remain constant regardless of user proficiency as the reduction in time per attack with increasing proficiency is proportional to the time per attack at 1 proficiency and the reduction in time per attack appears to be constant at ~6.5% per 100 proficiency for all weapon animations.

To my knowledge these penalties have never been changed.

[Teeth]

So a 15% penalty when you use a 2h or polearm on a horse or together with a shield and another 15% when it is a polearm. I think that says polearm once too many, but it comes down to a 30% damage penalty as a hoplite, right? If so, this seems incorrect to me, I don't know when these penalties are applied but if it is before anything else a MW Ashwood would do 23 pierce. I am quite sure that a MW Longspear with 29 pierce does more damage than my Ashwood with shield and I am quite sure the Ashwood also does a lot more damage without a shield, but this penalty seems too severe compared to my experiences.

From my experience with a 32p awlpike in another mod, which does have native penalties for hopliting, the difference between no shield or with shield was a lot bigger. The damage with shield was rather low, more in line with my expectations of a 30% penalty. I remember once reading something about a change to this damage modifier for cRPG and from my own impressions I am inclined to believe there has in fact been a change.

[DUKE DICKBUTT]

You guys are bad at math.  .85*.85 is not .7, it's .7225.  Stop saying 30% penalty, because its not.

Also nerf hoplites, buff heavy lances, etc etc