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- Implement a system which first balances the team by banner, then looks which classes the players had who were balanced by banner, and then finally fills up the remaining slots with corresponding classes. It's not that difficult... :rolleyes:
The only people who are in denial of this are self interested cav players.
The GK are ruthlessly effective at ridiculing any weak thread they come across!
"lol cav is EZ mode, i had a alt once i did couch lance op bs bundle of sticksry"I love this reference to Thomeks post in your last thread.
The problem is that cav is OPThe problem is that NH players are naturally even less intelligent than Euretards.
EU_cRPG_1_New 56 Battle Yes
I don't mind class stacking. It's usually only for 1 map if it happens and then things get rebalanced. Clans changing things is a rare ocurrance so that can't really be taken into equation. I also have an alt of almost any class so if I see there are a high number of archers or cav or whatever on the server I'll switch to an alt rather than getting miserable over the fact I'm being shot to pieces by archers because I have no shield or frustrated with cav because my weapon is to short.
There are ways to combat any class stacking, though a lot of it can rely on team mates and I think that is where the problem lies.
But i would disagree on a certain point.stacking melee on one side wont cause to much trouble to the enemy team, they can get raped by archers cav and other melees. ranged is a problem but it can be overcome with cav and good shielders. On the other hand cav....
I disagree on arab horse, i find it fine. what makes me more twitchy on the other hand is the destrier who is far to effective for 5 riding skill giving any infantry a ride on a the best all around horse, making him as effective as any other dedicated cav. This is why, imo there are so much cav. For me Destrier>arab>courser
Maybe destrier 6 riding skill?
Only way to fix cav imbalance is to seriously think about removal of banner balance.
Question is, how many clans are active these days?
If their numbers are lower than numbers of pubbies, then banner balance should be temporarily disabled so that people who actually play the mod can enjoy it to the fullest.
I don't know now, if I just didn't understand what you mean, or perhaps you misunderstood me, but I did want to say that a team which consists of infantry is not as strong as a team which consists of archers or cavalry. All players tend to attack beneficial targets, which are unaware or distracted. But due to their limited mobility and attack range (3m at the most for a pikeman) infantry has the hardest time picking beneficial targets, while you can have 50 archers simultaneously and effectively attacking a single enemy. Additional Infantry increases the team strength linearly, but additional cav and archers increase it exponentially.
I don't think that the amount of kills alone decides. I think it is what I wrote above: the better flexibility. Cav and archers are much more flexible and not limited in the choice of targets. Infantry is slow and can only engage those who enter melee range. In a game which is about wiping the enemy off the map those are not the most attractive attributes. If we changed the gamemode to something conquest-like, you would need a hammer and an anvil, a battering ram, and infantry would have its justification. But trying to hunt down someone who is faster than you and can attack you while you can't attack him is pretty pointless. That's why the number of cavalry and archers is increasing, despite all the nerfs they had to take in the past patches. And any further stat nerf won't change anything, because even with only one HP and no bump damage horses will be faster, and with only 3 cutting damage bows will still be able to attack over range.
Only way to fix cav imbalance is to seriously think about removal of banner balance.
zlisch, a throwing lance is often enough to persuade them not to get close, i love watching them jump like a mountain goat to avoid a projectile 8-) But taking a head on cav charge is a high risk medium reward jobNot really, now a days 75% of all lancers got shields, and I don't ever aim for the horse due to lack of ammo, so, fix cav by giving me 3 throwing lances per stack!
give me full lance angle and free level 48 build and put all cav in the other team.As long as you can't use a shield I'd be fine with you have a level 60 build.
that would make things fair for sure : )
Not really, now a days 75% of all lancers got shields, and I don't ever aim for the horse due to lack of ammo, so, fix cav by giving me 3 throwing lances per stack!
The problem is that NH players are naturally even less intelligent than Euretards.
meh, throwing lances are useless, they are purely to show off you have 7 pd and to inflict fear in 2h berserkers....but we will discuss that in another threadMake the thread or I'll discuss it here.
You sound pretty butthurt cuz the only time I ever seen you in c-rpg was months ago when I reported you for shitting up NA2 by sitting around and non-contributing by building catapults.Turbo your random "Cav is OP" shit proves I'm right.
now now kids, let's not derail this thread please 8-)So, what throwing weapons do you prefer?
Turbo your random "Cav is OP" shit proves I'm right.
I am not some kind of anti-cav fanatic, we have some cav in our clan, good ones too who do well on charts and work closely with infantry setup a lot easy kills for footmen and screen against archers. I also have no personal fear of cav, I carry 2 stacks of throwing weps and bring a lot of them down, I especially love when they charge me, adds nicely to my point total. I dislike getting lanced in back as much as the next guy, but I tear more skin off cav than they get off me.
Doesn't mean the class isn't OP on the whole. The arguement is pretty simple, cav costs very little (5 skill points, no wpf has a special inventory slot), is a huge power enhancer, has no downside. Even when someone takes out your horse legs you fight on as a fully effective infantry without a scratch. Cav was supposed to be balanced out by cost, but now that you can sell loompoint easy, who cares if you lose some money during a gen, very easy to finance with loom sale.
Here's how you fix throwing. Make throwing weapons much more accurate (most likely by reducing the WPF you lose on every PT to something like 6), and then make the max throwing weapons you can carry 2 or 3 (not two or three stacks of 3, 2 or 3 total). There really shouldn't be pure thrower builds, and if there are, they shouldn't be able to carry 12 throwing axes, where are they pulling them from?
Throwing should remain a hybrid class, but you should bump up the accuracy, and reduce the amount you can carry.
And, by the way, even experienced and dedicated infantry players who concentrate on fending off cavalry can't survive three or four lancers swarming him. All awareness has its limits.
May also add that you can't be aware to all sides at any given moment, that's completely impossible.
Of course. But many players doesn't seem to be looking around at all.
It's not hard to hear and react to the sound of an approaching horse.
If everyone were as aware as you being cavalry would be quite... different :wink:
If they all carried pikes as well? :P
It's exactly what happened in real life as well. Forward facing armies were dominant for quite a long time as a military tactic, but were weak from the flank. This led to cavalry charges (when possible) on the enemies flanks, and destroyed them because they couldn't turn to face the incoming threat (it was slow to turn and face them, and then it left them vulnerable to the spearhead of your own infantry).
Cavalry was very powerful for a while until armies started using pikes in their formations (lots and lots and lots of pikes). Not to mention crossbows being able to be picked up by anyone with little training and being useful (en masse) on the battlefield.
I wish for two things in c-rpg:
1) Infantry that was able to fight in formations (even loose, semi-formations) - this would require better communication in game, and game play mechanics to support it (i.e. being able to have people march at the same speed).
2) Braceable pikes/spears/lances that if you run into them, you get hurt. If you're riding a horse and run into them, you get skewered. To expand on this, any weapon could be run into by anyone and cause damage (the weapon has an ability to inflict damage even if not being swung). Also, horses should be able to get "stuck" on pikes, and basically stop their forward movement immediately (instead of the corpse turning into a ghost and flying through the pike). Also, then I would like to see the bodies of horses be able to cause damage after they die. Same with people, if someone jumps off a roof and lands on you, it's probably going to hurt them, but it should hurt you too if they fall on you.
As this concerns game balance, I am opening a thread here hoping we can seriously discuss the matter
Odin got moderator so he could post a gif. on every single thread withouth any punishment :mrgreen:I did it even before I got these fine blue blocks over my avatar :mrgreen:
The phrase "Cavalry is over-powered" is not much different than "Sun is hot", i.e. it does not introduce any ground breaking news. This game is about medieval, and cavalry should actually be overpowered. If you try to alter this truth with idiotic nerfs, then you are basically screwing up the reality mechanics. Every class is superior to any other, also it has weaknesses the same way.That simple. It's rock-paper-scissors balance here. Instead of trying to nerf the cavalry, I suggest to introduce a class based balance on top of banner balance. Or just stick with a class player who is superior to the one you are afraid of.
- You cannot whine about how cavalry kills you easily if you are not carrying a pike or you are just walking alone.
- You cannot whine about archers if you are slow or you don't carry a shield.
- You cannot whine about pikemen or archers if you are a cavalry.
Fuck the ninja players, let them whine, they're trying to ruin the game for everyone else.
Bring on the -1's, anti-cav lobby. Your rage-tears fuel me.
IMaybe riding should be more expensive like HA to force cav players specc deeper into agi making them/us weaker once on foot.
I predict your global moderator status won't last very long Odin.No one predicted your admin status last this long, Thomek :wink:
Anyway, what can cav players do when they are downed is of little relevance. It only very rarely does not lead to an immediate death.
All classes have strengths and weaknesses. So in theory a team with high concentration of one class should be easier to counter than an evenly mixed one.
This is just not true. Previously, yes, you could easily kill a fallen rider before they got up and started fighting back, but since the horse's corpse has started taking damage while it's dead the rider often has that crucial couple of seconds they need to get on their feet and start attacking/blocking.
Another way to stop this would be to not allow fallen cavalry to instant-switch from their lance to a secondary weapon, like for example (sorry Wolf), the poleaxe. This would mean that the downed player would have to stand up before they can switch their weapon, putting them at a greater disadvantage after being de-horsed. I don't believe this idea has been discussed yet?
And what if the GKs use tactics themselves, wait, until your infantry cluster meets their infantry cluster, and then start picking people who are engaged in fights? How much can tactics, sticking together and awareness help them?
I wouldn't sign that. Often you need a certain class to counter another class. But if the team has stacked a lot of one class, there won't be enough counters, and thus the stacked class will easily hunt down their "prey class" first and there will be an imbalance between the teams which will almost always lead to the victory of one team.
And the problem cRPG has is, that of the three "meta classes" it has, ranged, cav and infantry, cav and ranged represent the counter to each other, while infantry doesn't really counter anything. Shields stop arrows, but they don't kill archers. Pikes fend off horsemen, but they don't kill them. Cavalry kills archers who are standing in tunnel vision and shooting, and archers shoot horses and their riders.
This is just not true. Previously, yes, you could easily kill a fallen rider before they got up and started fighting back, but since the horse's corpse has started taking damage while it's dead the rider often has that crucial couple of seconds they need to get on their feet and start attacking/blocking.
This discussion SHOULD BE about a better team balance system, but since people want to discuss class balance let's go there.
Click me gently, I'm a link (http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/autobalance-is-awful/msg431813/#msg431813)
Wouldn't that work? No need to prevent people of playing with their clanmates. :wink:
I think such a thing would not help much. In fact it can even increase the problems on maps which favour a certain class, which will be either archers or cavalry.
And the restriction to changing to an alt which is of the same level is no way near precise enough. Generation, equipment, your K/D and W/L and a lot of other things would need to be calculated, and I don't think it would help the already complicated issue of establishing a working autobalancer.
The idea is tempting, don't get me wrong, and it would be nice to switch from one character to another without logging off, but it would bring a lot of problems. That's my opinion, at least. :?
And the restriction to changing to an alt which is of the same level is no way near precise enough. Generation, equipment, your K/D and W/L and a lot of other things would need to be calculated, and I don't think it would help the already complicated issue of establishing a working autobalancer.
Clean out all maps that are not perfectly even.
Check out if there are "natural fortifications" (turning battles into "soft" sieges), if the distances to choke points are equal (the team spawning closer to the central bridge will lose in the majority of all cases), and if both teams spawn on the same height level (so one team doesn't need to fight uphill).
I guess as infantry you find it fast...
I really don't think HA is easy mode.
[...]
Allowing people to switch between alts would accomplish the same thing, but in a different way. It would put the burden of proper team composition on the players and add another level of planning and strategy to the game. I for one would prefer choosing how I can best help my team, to having an algorithm take the best shot it can and sticking me with the result for four to seven rounds.
Teams don't need to be symmetrical to be fair. Does each team having exactly X infantry, Y cavalry, Z archers (and of course equal numbers of all the sub-classes you defined within) have a pleasing symmetry to it? I can see the appeal, but it seems boringly predictable.
Let people figure it out for themselves and you can have tactics that are always different, and teams that adapt to interesting maps which are fair without being depressingly symmetrical.
You loose too much and your multiplier stand at 1 ? So you want to change class by switching to your alt ?
Mmmh, let's see...
Disconnect then reconnect, 15 seconds max.
You were stuck at x1 anyway, what's the problem ?
there is one factor which will prevent your idea of working like intended: the average cRPG-player
You loose too much and your multiplier stand at 1 ? So you want to change class by switching to your alt ?
Mmmh, let's see...
Disconnect then reconnect, 15 seconds max.
You were stuck at x1 anyway, what's the problem ?
Give it few more weeks till people get back from GW2 (if they do), and it should get fixed :mrgreen:
I really don't think HA is easy mode.
.. But like all cav, horse archers have the uber-W-button-into-enemy-to-score-a-knockdown attack, which is fairly easy mode. If it looks like the person is aware of you, press CTRL+J or otherwise stop pressing W, waiting until someone isn't aware of your presence/is tied up in melee, repeat.
tldr; the shooting part is pretty hard, the cav-as-weapon part is pretty easy.
Having a horse does not bring advantage to unskilled players.
a good cav can take 1 on 1 almost every class, and a good cav will be able to beat most of 2h aware players on 1 on 1 if they try to outstab you
to sum up I think those could be some fixes to some problems of the class:If other kinds of cav are already balanced, then wouldn't decreasing bump damage and adding collision damage (I think that's what your last point is suggesting) make them unnecessarily weak? I think that nerfing bump damage would be a serious nerf to one-handed cav when their primary tactic is bump-slashing...
nerf heavy lance lenght by 5 points(bringing hl to 185, l to 180 and ll to 175)
nerf heavy lance damage by 1
nerf lance damage by 1 to prevent lance getting too popular and bringing decent variety to cav
nerf bump damage slightly
give a moderate damage to horses that have to rear against objectives
other kinds of cav(1h cav)are balanced and shouldn't be touched imo
ah and horse internal balance should be revisedThis, I agree with.
(every horse is simply sub par to the destrier atm)This, I don't. That's an absurd statement. Coursers, Arabians, and the more heavily armored horses are superior for different maps and play styles.
Charging with a lance was a revolution in the medieval art of war.
It need "étriers" ( I don't know the english word) and a dedicated cavalry with a sort of guard blocked under the shoulder to support the shock.
Before that, cav lances were used, more or less, for close combat. The speed factor was low because the rider could be dehorsed or release his weapon due to the shock.
Heavy Lance ( as it look) is not realistic.
besides all this i think a cav withFixed.outa shield is plain lame. there, i said it.
Only thing worse then cav stacking is ranged stacking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VkGa9StKBd8#t=78s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VkGa9StKBd8#t=78s)
They have got the trick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VkGa9StKBd8#t=78s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VkGa9StKBd8#t=78s)
They have got the trick.
The game would be so muchJust buff speed of heavy lance that way you lower brutal speed bonus of it and lance + lightlance become more viable.bettermore interesting if the regular or light lance was most used instead.