Author Topic: Cav stacking  (Read 6847 times)

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Offline Lactose_the_intolerant

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2012, 07:51:19 pm »
+1
now now kids, let's not derail this thread please  8-)

Offline IR_Kuoin

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2012, 07:53:44 pm »
0
Panos was rigth, if you would only have listened to him when he talked about the GK's, look what you have done!
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2012, 08:02:07 pm »
0
now now kids, let's not derail this thread please  8-)
So, what throwing weapons do you prefer?
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2012, 08:18:50 pm »
0
I would be very careful when buffing throwing. Actually I would leave it as it is, for now. You can screw up things way too easily.

Throwing is a very VERY complicated matter.

Reality gives a few prerequisites, and putting them into a balanced class is really difficult. The biggest problem of all is, that throwing was always only a support weapon. You never had pure throwers in armies, like you had pure archers or the like. On one hand it should be a "full", viable class, on the other hand we don't want to encourage more ranged spam or even turn melee into the duel of the last few survivors of the short range throwing massacre we would have if throwing was buffed too much.

The problem is: if you make throwing too accurate, it becomes OP as it is too easy to shoot people on close distance. If you make throwing less accurate, it becomes more of a luck based class, and if you give throwing more ammo to make up for the lower accuracy, you encourage ranged spam. On one hand throwing should deal the biggest damage of all ranged classes, as it suffers the biggest restrictions, on the other hand it is really annoying to be oneshot by a lucky hit on close distance.

Buffing throwers means annoying almost all other classes. And this is no lobbyism, because throwing is not really the peak of skill requirement. Just think about 2hd and polearm infantry, they would suffer a lot from this. Not that they were already suffering a lot, but you will never know to what a decrease in 2hd and halberd infantry will lead... and don't forget that pikes, an important anti-cav-element, would suffer from buffed throwing, too.

Seriously, I wouldn't touch throwing, and I don't really see it as solution against cav. I already gave a good solution, but people don't mind to answer. Buffing throwing to deal with cav (or buffing any class to deal with another class) will always end like those stories where people imported a certain animal from the other side of the world into their country to deal with a certain other animal...
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 08:22:01 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Turboflex

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2012, 08:23:43 pm »
0
Turbo your random "Cav is OP" shit proves I'm right.

I am not some kind of anti-cav fanatic, we have some cav in our clan, good ones too who do well on charts and work closely with infantry setup a lot easy kills for footmen and screen against archers. I also have no personal fear of cav, I carry 2 stacks of throwing weps and bring a lot of them down, I especially love when they charge me, adds nicely to my point total. I dislike getting lanced in back as much as the next guy, but I tear more skin off cav than they get off me.

Doesn't mean the class isn't OP on the whole. The arguement is pretty simple, cav costs very little (5 skill points, no wpf has a special inventory slot), is a huge power enhancer, has no downside. Even when someone takes out your horse legs you fight on as a fully effective infantry without a scratch. Cav was supposed to be balanced out by cost, but now that you can sell loompoint easy, who cares if you lose some money during a gen, very easy to finance with loom sale.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2012, 08:29:09 pm »
-3
Here's how you fix throwing.  Make throwing weapons much more accurate (most likely by reducing the WPF you lose on every PT to something like 6), and then make the max throwing weapons you can carry 2 or 3 (not two or three stacks of 3, 2 or 3 total).  There really shouldn't be pure thrower builds, and if there are, they shouldn't be able to carry 12 throwing axes, where are they pulling them from?

Throwing should remain a hybrid class, but you should bump up the accuracy, and reduce the amount you can carry.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2012, 08:41:18 pm »
0
I am not some kind of anti-cav fanatic, we have some cav in our clan, good ones too who do well on charts and work closely with infantry setup a lot easy kills for footmen and screen against archers. I also have no personal fear of cav, I carry 2 stacks of throwing weps and bring a lot of them down, I especially love when they charge me, adds nicely to my point total. I dislike getting lanced in back as much as the next guy, but I tear more skin off cav than they get off me.

Doesn't mean the class isn't OP on the whole. The arguement is pretty simple, cav costs very little (5 skill points, no wpf has a special inventory slot), is a huge power enhancer, has no downside. Even when someone takes out your horse legs you fight on as a fully effective infantry without a scratch. Cav was supposed to be balanced out by cost, but now that you can sell loompoint easy, who cares if you lose some money during a gen, very easy to finance with loom sale.

That's right.

Some time ago I made a suggestion concerning a change of the upkeep system, but I got flamed to the ground.

Here's how you fix throwing.  Make throwing weapons much more accurate (most likely by reducing the WPF you lose on every PT to something like 6), and then make the max throwing weapons you can carry 2 or 3 (not two or three stacks of 3, 2 or 3 total).  There really shouldn't be pure thrower builds, and if there are, they shouldn't be able to carry 12 throwing axes, where are they pulling them from?

Throwing should remain a hybrid class, but you should bump up the accuracy, and reduce the amount you can carry.

I wouldn't support that. That would mean you would have some guaranteed kills every round, as an accurate throwing weapon on short distance is a sure kill. Especially if the thrower is skilled.

You would still have pure throwers, which rely on scavenging, and it would work, because the popularity would raise rapidly. That would lead to a development, where you first have the long range fighting with archers and crossbowmen, and then, when the two infantry clusters spproach, the short range fighting starts, and once it is over, the few survivors would finally engage in melee.

This would make "real" melee (backstabbing cav is no melee) even more unattractive, more infantry players would change their class, and you would increase the problems we have, instead of lowering them.

Leave throwing as it is, implement conquest mode.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Riddaren

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2012, 08:51:34 pm »
+3
1. Awareness

This is the main reason why cavalry has such an advantage. The mobility and speed of the horses combined with the low awareness among players.
If everyone would just be aware cavalry would become a lot harder and fewer people would play it as a result. Because most kills are made up of unware enemies.


2. Egocentricity & laziness

Players don't bother looking out for each other, instead they are greedy for kills and care only for their own score.
It doesn't have to be like this. YOU can make a difference. Someone has to start.

Personaly I think it's quite rewarding helping teamates out when I can. I suggest you try it more often if your not doing it much already.
It might not give you a good score but it may help the team even more. Furthermore people do appreciate when others help them and you will get their trust in return.
Players will look up to you more and who knows, you might be able to give out orders to masses of players if many players respect and trust you.

Sadly, we cannot make a score system where players are rewarded for saving teamates.
But the thing is, the loss of a teamate is just as much of a loss that a kill is a loss for the enemy. More or less.


3. Teamplay

Don't leave teamates behind. Wait for them and stick together.
It's quite stupid imo blaming cavalry for spawn raping when it could be prevented simply by waiting for everyone to spawn. Really.

Don't walk out in the open if the enemy team have lots of cavalry.
Stay close together somwhere safe, like against a wall, on a roof, on a hill or a slope.

When advancing in a group try to stick closer together and watch your back.
The thing is, that people tend to feel safe when walking in big groups but ironically you can often just couch lance through all of them.

If you have lots of ranged and the enemy have lots of cavalry, don't charge their infantry at start of round.
Wait in spawn and deal with their incoming cavalry to begin with.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2012, 08:56:58 pm »
+5
A good post, but I fear it won't help much, as most of the autowalking-lemming-Rambo-retards are not even willing to read any post above the length of three... letters!

I tried several times to change the behaviour of the players on the servers - no chance! They see it as limitations, outliving your inferiority complexes, or simply boring. Many of them LOVE to fight in unadvantageous situations.

And, by the way, even experienced and dedicated infantry players who concentrate on fending off cavalry can't survive three or four lancers swarming him. All awareness has its limits.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2012, 09:05:20 pm »
+3
And, by the way, even experienced and dedicated infantry players who concentrate on fending off cavalry can't survive three or four lancers swarming him. All awareness has its limits.

May also add that you can't be aware to all sides at any given moment, that's completely impossible.
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Cepeshi

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2012, 09:07:43 pm »
+3
To Riddaren and all those using awareness as a possible solution: HAHAHAHAHAHHA!

How on earth will help me to know all about whereabouts of all them 25 horses trying to rape 3 infantrymen? All awareness in the world will not help you here. Same with a opposing team stacked with cav/archers, you would just have to run around like retard with ocassional downblock and not do anything else. Not to talk if you reach an enemy infantrymen, that is just harvesting season for them whorsemen.

And yeah, i played horse for like 5 gens or so, quite some time.

Egocentricity and laziness, again, you expect people to cooperate in score based system? B*tch, please...Only time i get to do some teamwork is when some of my clannies are on, other than that i pick a target which i protect from any possible harm, that is quite challenging minigame, but still, on larger scale impossible to achieve.

Any class stacking is retarded, you can say whatever you want, but if one team has all the ranged and horses, its pretty much game over for them (saw several times that almost purely horse/shooter teams got owned by mostly infantry), but that depends on the map quite a lot.

I would like to see this problem of class-stacking fixed, but sadly i have no idea how it could be done. Breaking banner balance for some sort of skillpoint balance is a no-go for me, i want to play with them few clannies i still have, not against them.

I say create a cav only server...you cannot enter without riding skill, just as is the low lvl one. Let them have their "cav vs. cav" fights they are so eager about and rest of us can go have fun on other servers.

Offline Riddaren

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2012, 09:48:10 pm »
-2
(click to show/hide)

That's funny. Thank you for making my point even more clear.

Offline Ptolemy

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2012, 09:50:23 pm »
0
What's that? Blanket ban cav?

Sure why not. It worked on Star Trek.

Offline Riddaren

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2012, 10:10:16 pm »
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May also add that you can't be aware to all sides at any given moment, that's completely impossible.

Of course. But many players doesn't seem to be looking around at all.
It's not hard to hear and react to the sound of an approaching horse.

Sure, some are playing with music so loud they can't hear horses but there are just too many players that can be backstabbed with ease even though there are no other horses nearby.

ps
If everyone were as aware as you being cavalry would be quite... different  :wink:

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2012, 10:33:57 pm »
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Of course. But many players doesn't seem to be looking around at all.

Yes, and they deserve to die. Walking without thinking is fine if you walk next to a hoplite or a pikeman but wandering alone without any form for support and whining about getting raped by cav would just be a joke.

It's not hard to hear and react to the sound of an approaching horse.

True, it's easy to react to the sound, however it's really hard to know where it's coming from. You can't really tell it from the sound from which direction the horse's coming.

If everyone were as aware as you being cavalry would be quite... different  :wink:

If they all carried pikes as well? :P
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.