Author Topic: Cav stacking  (Read 7068 times)

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Offline BattalGazi

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2012, 11:52:42 pm »
0
I really don't think HA is easy mode. All the upkeep you pay ( horse + arrow stacks ) and sacrifice in means of skill points ( no IF, no PS, no ATH )  and ridiculous low body armor, low enough for 1 shot/cut/thrust to kill you, very rare valor chances, and if you are still able to survive and kill people,that is not an easy mode my friend. Show some respect damn it you whiners.

Offline Ptolemy

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2012, 12:42:50 am »
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I guess as infantry you find it fast...

As I've said in another thread, I have alts for every class, including Cavalry, HA, HX. I don't find the fall times all that long, and about 70% of the time I survive the immediate after-math of the fall (but die shortly after because I never have any Athletics or Iron Flesh).

I really don't think HA is easy mode.

It's not easy mode to get kills, but playing on my HA a couple of days ago I couldn't help feeling very cheap as I could rack up score very easily by just shooting targets of opportunity. Even though you're not "directly" helping, you're still lowering the hp of those you hit, so in the long run each of those minor injuries add up. Especially since a HA can quite effectively run from any other cav type and dodge arrows if you're not going at full speed - actually varying speed and direction like you should do.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2012, 02:59:51 am »
+2

[...]


Thanks for that nice post, it's motivating to see people around who are well capable of discussing a matter properly.

Allowing people to switch between alts would accomplish the same thing, but in a different way. It would put the burden of proper team composition on the players and add another level of planning and strategy to the game. I for one would prefer choosing how I can best help my team, to having an algorithm take the best shot it can and sticking me with the result for four to seven rounds.

Teams don't need to be symmetrical to be fair. Does each team having exactly X infantry, Y cavalry, Z archers (and of course equal numbers of all the sub-classes you defined within) have a pleasing symmetry to it? I can see the appeal, but it seems boringly predictable.

Let people figure it out for themselves and you can have tactics that are always different, and teams that adapt to interesting maps which are fair without being depressingly symmetrical.

I see where your idea is coming from, but there is one factor which will prevent your idea of working like intended: the average cRPG-player.

There is little good to say about him. He is egocentric, narcissistic, careless, mentally lazy, arrogant, stubborn, and, most of all, kill hungry and has always complexes about the size of his e-peen.

That's why he will not, like you, choose the class which will help his team a lot, he will choose the class which is the most effective on a certain map.

Let's assume for example, that the map changes from Swadian Riot (it's that city streets map with the gallows at the market place, I think  :?  :?: ) to some random plains map. On those narrow and short streets archers and especially cavalry couldn't develop their their full potential. But now the map changes to the open random plains, and things change. A caring player could think "Ouch, open plains, I guess the enemy will bring a lot of horses, so I will go pikeman to protect my team" or "I could use my thrower build and bring an extra siege shield to protect our archers.", but the average cRPG player will think "Oh! Open plains! I will go horseman and rack up a lot of easy kills!". And suddenly half of the server will be cavalry, if not, more. We already have this behaviour with cavalry hybrids, but if you don't even need to hybridize any more with the character-switching-feature, this phenomenon will even increase.

On a hilly map with many ruins or a well defendable village for example you will have half or more of the server switching to archers.

And with the fast switch feature most battles would become incredibly symmetric by default. Because if on a good, but not perfect (still has hills and obstacles and more) cavalry map one team decides for some reason to rather go the archer way (I want to say that many players incidentally make the same decision - not like cRPG players would arrange with each other  :rolleyes: ), they will shoot the enemy, cav-heavy team to bits. You can be sure as hell next round the cav team will be an archer team as well. Not because they planned on countering them or the like, no, just because of the fact that they saw the archers doing well last round, and that's what they want, too, to rack up more kills.

cRPG players don't think within the boundaries of their team, they only think about themselves. In some way you always need to design the game like you would be designing it for a bunch of players who are playing multiplayer, but think they are in single player. Because you are.


Edit: sorry Thomek for that long post again, but I am confident PhigNewtenz will read it, and it's mostly directed to him.  :wink:

« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 03:06:52 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
î saved for eternety (without context  :mrgreen:)

Offline Tovi

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2012, 08:13:05 am »
0
You loose too much and your multiplier stand at 1 ? So you want to change class by switching to your alt ?

Mmmh, let's see...

Disconnect then reconnect, 15 seconds max.
You were stuck at x1 anyway, what's the problem ?
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Offline Cepeshi

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2012, 09:59:15 am »
0
You loose too much and your multiplier stand at 1 ? So you want to change class by switching to your alt ?

Mmmh, let's see...

Disconnect then reconnect, 15 seconds max.
You were stuck at x1 anyway, what's the problem ?

You should not force people to play alts in order for them to have fun. I have created my main char to play with him, not to catch dust on him while i am forced to play shielder in order to survive more than first 2 minutes.

Guys, i really do think that the problem these days is: low populated servers. When there will be more people than 60-80 online, the cav stacking is not that big deal. Actually i saw few times when there was around 100 guys, that the cav stacked team got raped pretty hard for few rounds. All archers/cav couldnt do shit against 2hers and like LOADS of hoplites.

Give it few more weeks till people get back from GW2 (if they do), and it should get fixed  :mrgreen:

Offline Mr_Oujamaflip

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2012, 10:49:13 am »
+1
I don't mind Cav. HA are bitches because I can't catch them and they don't have to get close so it makes me sad.

I think the issue with cav is that they control the engagement. They choose when to attack and when to pull out and it means all anyone else can do is react to them, this then allows for easy ninjaing. You can say be more aware all you want, sometimes it's just not possible to look around you enough.

One thing I'll never understand is how people can struggle against them in a 1v1 situation. I use a Katana and beat a lot of lance cavalry, you danish using armoured dudes should have no problem.

Offline PhigNewtenz

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2012, 02:08:20 pm »
+1
there is one factor which will prevent your idea of working like intended: the average cRPG-player

Damn that villain! He causes most of our problems.

I for one don't really see the downside of people all going one class if that's what (they think) the map calls for. I would love to rack up points on my thrower with 8 Throwing Spears and one Bamboo Spear while a bunch of foolish peasants charge around a random plains map on Rounceys. I would also love it if this would finally get rid of the random plains maps  :?

Thanks for the responses; you've made some great points and I'll need to do some thinking. Perhaps I'll pick this debate up next time there's a reasonably well intentioned auto-balance topic. Until then, I'll continue running around on my bastardized lancer/1H/shielder/polearm main and helping my team out where I can.

You loose too much and your multiplier stand at 1 ? So you want to change class by switching to your alt ?

Mmmh, let's see...

Disconnect then reconnect, 15 seconds max.
You were stuck at x1 anyway, what's the problem ?

What's the problem? For one, you could likely be placed on the other team when you come back and potentially (if admins recognize you and your alts) face warnings and bans for attempting to circumvent the auto-balance. For two, if the whole (or a large portion of the) team where doing this, it would amount to the team that just lost 'spawning' 15-30 seconds late which could cause imbalance (either an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on the map) in many cases.

Give it few more weeks till people get back from GW2 (if they do), and it should get fixed  :mrgreen:

God I hope so!

Offline Malaclypse

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2012, 02:37:33 pm »
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I really don't think HA is easy mode.

I agree with this statement, to a point. Yes, you have to pay more gold, though that's not really related to difficulty in terms of combat effectiveness. Hitting stuff as a horse archer, especially while moving, can be very hard (not including extremely close drive-by action). Killing stuff can be even more difficult. But like all cav, horse archers have the uber-W-button-into-enemy-to-score-a-knockdown attack, which is fairly easy mode. If it looks like the person is aware of you, press CTRL+J or otherwise stop pressing W, waiting until someone isn't aware of your presence/is tied up in melee, repeat.

tldr; the shooting part is pretty hard, the cav-as-weapon part is pretty easy.
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Offline BattalGazi

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2012, 03:47:55 pm »
-2
.. But like all cav, horse archers have the uber-W-button-into-enemy-to-score-a-knockdown attack, which is fairly easy mode. If it looks like the person is aware of you, press CTRL+J or otherwise stop pressing W, waiting until someone isn't aware of your presence/is tied up in melee, repeat.

tldr; the shooting part is pretty hard, the cav-as-weapon part is pretty easy.

It is not much different from a 2H or pole guy attacking to another infantry from behind, perform a head slash and kill in 1-2 swings. It is all about the enemy not noticing you. We use horses, infantry use their swords. Having a horse does not bring advantage to unskilled players. Also I have to remind you that HA has no blocking possibility during a bump charge, so if your enemy notices you and you are still going for it, then you have to be really careful with the timing or you can die really fast.

And like those who manage to perform this kick during fight, only skilled cav players can go direct on to a facing enemy. Others just die on top of their horses, or bump their teammates.

Edit:
Believe it or not, bumping can be very hard in many cases:
  • If the enemy is alone, you can bump with more ease, that is for certain. Unless he is a pikeman (noob or veteran), a 1H/2H (veteran), these guys have nasty tricks
  • If they are in a group, then either they should not have noticed you or you are riding an elephant
  • If they are involved in a fight, then you really have to be a skilled cav not to bump your teammates
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 01:28:14 pm by BattalGazi »

Offline Siiem

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2012, 06:25:24 pm »
+5
Having a horse does not bring advantage to unskilled players.

What game have you been playing?

Offline fdaslan

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2012, 11:45:59 pm »
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Just left a 15 cav vs 1 cav game and to be honest, situations like that just makes the game annoying and boring. A little differance between cav numbers on each team is OK but when it is more than 4 or 5, it makes the game unplayable.

Offline San

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2012, 12:49:04 am »
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No need to ruin it for everyone with direct nerfs to ability points and stuff. That will just screw up people's builds. In addition to more class-oriented balance, punish bad cav more. I feel like it should still feel balanced even if there is a majority cav on the other team.

Cav aren't punished enough, and sometimes even REWARDED for making mistakes on the battlefield.

I think a few simple changes would help:

-Horse receives speed-based damage if it crashes into walls. (crashing into other horses probably shouldn't be added in unless devs know what they're doing)

-Speed-based bonus damage when dehorsed (with a possible max damage maybe, like 30-40%) and/or remove dead horse body when dehorsed since it can get in the way outside of where it appears on your screen.

-Cav rider briefly stunned when horse is stopped (prevents getting off horse right when stopped, or attacking someone who just stopped you)

-Higher horse speed requirement for bumps and knockdown. Barely moving cav shouldn't stun people.

-Horse bump radius properly matches the horse's body. No ghost stuns/bumps.

-Couching more heavily reliant on speed bonus, slow horses shouldn't have insane power on couches, maybe medium-good power. It would also be neat to trade some power for bonus against shield so even slow couches break those.

Optional things to bring diversity to cav would help too for more anti-cav options:
-Increase lance radius on spears a decent degree.
-Possibly make the shorter lances sheathable


I don't think horses need a speed or maneuver nerf with some of these changes, even though stab U-turns are pretty annoying from an anti-cav's perspective.

Offline marco1391

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2012, 06:18:14 pm »
+2
just for the record I played lancer cav from january 2011(when we had the upkeep patch and I had to change my char, the 4 months before I was an archer)
I almost don't play crpg anymore(respecced my char for fun to a 2handers since I think they have a retarded stab a month ago and still I've probably played 10 hours from that moment)

I can clearly say from an experience of over a year and a half that cav is simply op atm(and 2h heroes come close second).
back in january 2011 it was balanced since everyone had access to the "lol poket 1 slot 265 reach pike, don't you dare come next to me even if I look like an easy kill"
after the patch that introduced the slot limitation cav has always been op, back after the slot patch it was just redicolous(and any competent cav was able to outreach a dgs stab abusing the retarded "full right" lance angle from native)

after the lance turn radious cav was decently nerfed but it was still op, even me(and I was an average/mediocre player) could be on top of the scoreboard almost always using my champion courser and masterwork heavy lance.

and to all of you who says "it's cus u no aware idiot"to people who die by cav it's simply not like that.
a good cav can take 1 on 1 almost every class, and a good cav will be able to beat most of 2h aware players on 1 on 1 if they try to outstab you(only few skilled ggs and dgs user can outreach a skilled cav player)and if they block it simply turns out to be an endless lolbump(and some cav player can still bumplance).
and that's just retarded since cav main strenght is oneshoting and getting kills on unaware people or players occupied with melee close combat, and it's not supposed at all to be able to openly fight 1vs1 and win.
also now with an heirloomed destried you get so many kills off bumps that you feel silly for those melee players(I used a +3 destrier from when the courser was nerfed)
also the heavy lance gets redicolously good when heirloomed(it's a 12%base damage increase, as opposed to other swords, for example the flamberge get a 6.5%increase fully loomed)and the speed bonus makes the damage increase even more relevant, and horses are also one of the most worthy thing to loom.

to sum up I think those could be some fixes to some problems of the class:
nerf heavy lance lenght by 5 points(bringing hl to 185, l to 180 and ll to 175)
nerf heavy lance damage by 1
nerf lance damage by 1 to prevent lance getting too popular and bringing decent variety to cav
nerf bump damage slightly
give a moderate damage to horses that have to rear against objectives

other kinds of cav(1h cav)are balanced and shouldn't be touched imo
also imo the lance animation shouldn't be changed, cav duels are all about timing your lance to hit on the last moment of the lance animation and that was a skill implying factor that I always liked

ah and horse internal balance should be revised(every horse is simply sub par to the destrier atm)

Offline Tovi

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2012, 07:00:36 pm »
0
Charging with a lance was a revolution in the medieval art of war.
It need "étriers" ( I don't know the english word) and a dedicated cavalry with a sort of guard blocked under the shoulder to support the shock.
Before that, cav lances were used, more or less, for close combat. The speed factor was low because the rider could be dehorsed or release his weapon due to the shock.

Heavy Lance ( as it look) is not realistic.
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Offline PhigNewtenz

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Re: Cav stacking
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2012, 07:20:47 pm »
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a good cav can take 1 on 1 almost every class, and a good cav will be able to beat most of 2h aware players on 1 on 1 if they try to outstab you

Where to even start.

First of all, the 'good beats most' bias in this argument is huge. 'Good' isn't very specific, but I think it's fair to say for the sake of argument that it represents the top 20% of players. 'Most' is fairly clear. It's at least 50%, and because we are talking about the portion of players that lose, it's specifically the bottom 50%.

Saying that a class is OP because the top 20% of it routinely beats the bottom 50% of another class is irrelevant, unless you're arguing that things are properly balanced. Better players should beat worse players unless there is a hard counter (i.e. pikemen in this case) involved. The top 20% of two-handers also routinely beat the bottom 50% of cav players, and no one (reasonable) is suggesting buffing cav. The top 20% of two-handers routinely beat the bottom 50% of two-handers, and no one is suggesting flattening the learning curve to remove skill from the game.

I think that an average skilled cav player would be at best evenly matched against an equivalently skilled player of most classes as long as that player is aware. To emphasize, equivalently skilled is the most important part of that last sentence. They'd be in serious trouble against a polearm user, most ranged builds, or any variant of horse archer. Say nothing of the fact that it's an infantry player's own fault if they're standing in the middle of a field with no cover when their only enemy is a lancer. A tree, wall, roof, hill, or  some water would be enough to ruin the lancer.

to sum up I think those could be some fixes to some problems of the class:
nerf heavy lance lenght by 5 points(bringing hl to 185, l to 180 and ll to 175)
nerf heavy lance damage by 1
nerf lance damage by 1 to prevent lance getting too popular and bringing decent variety to cav
nerf bump damage slightly
give a moderate damage to horses that have to rear against objectives

other kinds of cav(1h cav)are balanced and shouldn't be touched imo
If other kinds of cav are already balanced, then wouldn't decreasing bump damage and adding collision damage (I think that's what your last point is suggesting) make them unnecessarily weak? I think that nerfing bump damage would be a serious nerf to one-handed cav when their primary tactic is bump-slashing...

ah and horse internal balance should be revised
This, I agree with.

(every horse is simply sub par to the destrier atm)
This, I don't. That's an absurd statement. Coursers, Arabians, and the more heavily armored horses are superior for different maps and play styles.