cRPG
cRPG => Events & Tournaments => Topic started by: Zotte on May 22, 2012, 07:24:17 pm
-
This thread is for discussing some rules concerning the tournament, we will handle the following topics in the OP.
1. STF characters
2. Class/Item restrictions
If you want to dispute any rules given in the main thread that can also be done here.
STF characters
There have been some discussions concerning if we should limit participation to skip the fun only, in our opinion we believe that characters and heirlooms are part of cRPG and thus we would like to keep them in the competition, in our previous experience with cRPG competition especially the Fallen tournament we noticed that it wasnt the most heirloomed teams to win but the teams that worked together most effectively, one could argue that heirlooms have a larger effect in public battles as those have less teamwork and more small 1v1 fights.
Furthermore we think that most if not all nations that participate can easily bring up a team with an adequate amount of heirlooms, while this might not have been possible a year ago, the game has become quite top heavy with many people being on a high generation.
However we would still like to give the option to discuss whether or not we should enforce STF.
Class/Item restrictions
currently in almost all events/clan battles done there is some form of class or item restrictions in place. Should we have the same for this Nations Cup? Below you can find some options that we recommend, discuss and vote on them.
Classes ranged/cav
1. No restrictions
2. No more than 2 ranged and 2 cavalry
3. No more than 5 ranged and cavalry combined
4. No more than 3 ranged and 3 cavalry
Ranged on horse takes both one ranged slot and one cavalry slot, throwing also takes a ranged slot.
Classes Melee
1. No restrictions
2. Limit pikes to X per team
3. Limit Crushthrough to X per team
Items
No restrictions
Limit amount of heavy horses to X
Limit amount of armour above price Z to Y
Disallow heirlooms (only possible with enforced Skip the Fun)
If there are any other class or item options that you want to discuss then do so here.
-
No restrictions
-
No restrictions
-
Actually it might be interesting to see no restrictions just to see how it shakes out.
The difficulty then though, that the choice of map becomes the main "restriction". A city map would favour heavy infantry while an open map would favour range & cavalry.
The best compromise map I can think of off the top of my head would that classic gladiator arena map. Not too big, cover in middle with the low walls, a few posts scattered around, but still room for cav to circle.
-
No restrictions
-
Actually it might be interesting to see no restrictions just to see how it shakes out.
The difficulty then though, that the choice of map becomes the main "restriction". A city map would favour heavy infantry while an open map would favour range & cavalry.
You are very true
-
No restrictions
Also please lets play with main chars, not with shitty STF.
-
Using STF is obvious choice for me and it's surprising that you're actually even considering anything else. "Cup" with 35+ heirloomed armor twinks fighting normal geared people can't be taken seriously.
-
Using STF is obvious choice for me and it's surprising that you're actually even considering anything else. "Cup" with 35+ heirloomed armor twinks fighting normal geared people can't be taken seriously.
Hey , we get it, you're from native.
This is , in our opinion, a different game though. And heirlooms/levels are part of it.
-
Hey , we get it, you're from native.
This is , in our opinion, a different game though. And heirlooms/levels are part of it.
Exactly, there's a reason why this mod is called M&B:Warband cRPG.
-
No restrictions? Ok, interresting
How about 10 guys full heirloomed plate with a great maul, how would you play this as a team?
:twisted:
-
No restrictions? Ok, interresting
How about 10 guys full heirloomed plate with a great maul, how would you play this as a team?
:twisted:
easy to win, with 10 fullyheirloomed op my old friendchers
-
Hmm. No restrictions could be funny. There is already restrictions that each nation should fight together and not each clan.
Else I'd say something along the lines of your old tournament restrictions rules.
-
Classes ranged/cav
1. No restrictions
2. No more than 2 ranged and 2 cavalry
3. No more than 5 ranged and cavalry combined
4. No more than 3 ranged and 3 cavalry
GK :|
-
easy to win, with 10 fullyheirloomed op friendly archers
Don't even have to be fullyheirloomed :mrgreen:
GK :|
This is not Clan Cup, this is Nations Cup.
-
GK :|
i always thought GK was a clan, not a country :|
-
i always thought GK was a clan, not a country :|
Actually GK is a sexual orientation.
-
I'd have each team nominate an armour for their team (like in Fallen Tournaments). That way teams are easy to spectate for refs/fans and armour is easily limited to Coat of Plates and below.
I'd then say maximums of 2 ranged and 2 Cav however melee chars may carry up to 1 stack of throwing weapons if they wish. So dedicated throwers = ranged, hybrid throwers using only 1 stack = melee
Finally unlimited Weapon Choice so long as class choice is observed
-
nominations of armor are bad for several reasons.
First off, if we go for main chars we migh have heirloomed different armors.
I say no restrictions and if any only in regards to cav/archery.
-
No restrictions
-
First off, if we go for main chars we might have heirloomed different armors.
Given that matches are going to be played over time with plenty of notice i think there won't be much trouble getting armours. At any rate it is a standard and accepted rule for past Clan Tournaments so I think people will deal with it ok.
An interesting but potentially awful looking alternative would be for all teams to use the Heraldic Mail with Tabard on STFs so that each team can use its own flag as a banner :D
-
No restrictions??
So one team will just have cavs or archers.
And without armorrestriction, people can just walk in tincan armor.
Armor is OP so armor should get a restriction, also cav/range.
I would say armorrestriction should be up to Coat of Plates ,
3 cav per team and 3 range per team.
-
WTf people whining about tincans?
do you really think everyone owns set of plates?
-
Hmm.. Are you guys gonna use native or crpg maps ?
-
Exactly, there's a reason why this mod is called M&B:Warband cRPG.
That's why you should be able to make your custom STF character to participate in it. Only in your mind cRPG means that the one who can grind the most should have any sort of advantage.
we migh have heirloomed different armors.
Allowing heirlooms in this is even worse idea, especially armor. There still are situations where a proper hit with reasonable amount of PS glances off heirloomed heavy armor, which shouldn't be happening.
-
Hmm.. Are you guys gonna use native or crpg maps ?
Well I hope they would use ENL Map Pack because they have been chosen and made for balance and to be bug-free:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
link: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=196663.0
-
STF characters please
-
I would also prefer STF chars and a skillbased tournament but knowing the cRPG community that probably isn't going to happen.
-
I'd say no restrictions. But if people agree on STFs, I don't mind since that might be fun as well :)
-
Arguments for using mains
First of all, this was never a problem before, why now?
cRPG's main attraction is its persistency for me. You have a character with a certain build, playstyle and gear set. A huge part of the enjoyability is having so many unique players which are recognizable by their style and gear. I can see that others feel the same, as every nostalgia thread is filled with 'do you remember x, who was using y and was awesome with it?' If we were to have skip the funs there would be different names, probably different builds, armors and weapons, we will lose the cRPG feel. STF's would throw this awesomeness out of the window for the tiny difference in performance.
Which is actually really tiny because the captains are going to pick players that they know and can count on. Every single one of those players has played this mod for a considerable amount of time and has a loomed main weapon and maybe a loomed piece of armor or can be lvl 33. The difference the looms and levels bring is very minor compared to the differences in ping, mouses, mousepads and computers.
Then there is something Zotte pointed out but hasn't posted here. Playing without looms will make the class balance very different. Playing melee without looms just means a little less protection and damage output, however for ranged, there is a considerably bigger difference for playing without looms compared to looms. To me this is just a flaw in current class design as classes should get an equal advantage from looming, but that is not the case right now. Ranged classes, most notably archery, will be a lot less viable without looms then melee without looms. Distancing the tournament even more from the regular cRPG experience.
Also you saying this is a skillbased tournament (people with large e-peens, surprisingly). Skill is a very relative concept. To me skill is what you can do with your body and everything belonging to your body. To have a real skillbased tournament the only variable between contestants should be their body. If you only take a look at professional sports you can see that its not even the case. Equipment and preparation play a really big role, still people say professional sports are true tests of skill. Which is just not really true. I think in cRPG the looms and levels are very comparable to what happens in professional sports, so I'd say its easily acceptable.
Sorry if I nicked any other arguments from the discussion in our TS, it was just time to get a real discussion going here and I wanted to present a strong case for using mains.
Restrictions
There should be equipment restrictions as in the balance of items, price is a factor. For one tournament, probably without upkeep anyway, people can go all out price wise, which is not accounted for in the balance. Therefore there should be price restrictions to compensate for the lack of upkeep which could potentially unbalance the class balance.
Class restrictions should be there aswell, but only to prevent like all cav teams or all archer teams, I think they should be somewhat loose, so there is actually strategy in picking the right classes for a battle. As the teams will probably have substitutes with different classes, they might be able to adapt to other teams. So for example having 4 cav should be allowed, having 4 ranged should be allowed. Not both at the same time though, maybe a minimum amount of infantry would be cool.
I think there should be no limit for crushthrough and pikes, there are no limits for them either in regular battle and they have their counters. Although maybe with the more skilled environment and more teamplay that this tournament has compared to battle people will be more able to unleash the terrifying maximum potential of these weapons, there should be a limit. Not sure yet.
-
Seems like there are lots and lots of boring and complicated restrictions. x cav, x melee, x armor, ranged... the list goes on as I see. This is something that cripple diversity badly. If one nation want to follow a mass cavalry tactic, it should be their decision. My suggestion is simple:
-Since STF characters is a necessity, we should set a limit of gold to each player. Let's say, no better equipment than equipment worth 30k gold. We can increase this limit as the tourney goes on as well, so that teams can enhance their tactics further with the usage of heavy cavalry and such.
This way, we would be setting a limit to prevent heavy armor based teams but not limit the diversity and the creativity. Being able to use tactics such as mass cavalry should have it's place if one side wishes. Considering horses cost a lot, the other team would have a better equipment most probably; which also states out that balanced teams would have a better chance to gain the victory much likely. Yet, the mass cavalry still has it's chance to win if used properly. It would be the team captain's responsibility to decide, which tactics are useful and what risk comes within them.
Edit: ah it seems I am just a bit late. Someone posted something similiar already.
2nd Edit: After reading the sgtTeeh's post mroe carefully, I changed my mind. What we say are quite different.
-
The difference the looms and levels bring is very minor compared to the differences in ping, mouses, mousepads and computers.
So because we can't make it dead-fair we should forego making it fair in any respect at all?
Rest of your post is your opinions about what you think cRPG is, so not much to discuss.
-
At least we will find out what country is producing the largest quantity of rage inducing builds and then we can create some kind of filter and force them all to make there own server and drive each other up the wall.
-
At least we will find out what country is producing the largest quantity of rage inducing builds and then we can create some kind of filter and force them all to make there own server and drive each other up the wall.
Bad idea
-
if i wanted restrictions, i would play nativ cup..
-
first we should see what teams we got in the end and then think bout class restrictions.
But Im defo for a rough limit for Range,Cav and Chrushthrough...
-
well STF is a must, otherwise i doubt this could be taken seriously.
-
well STF is a must, otherwise i doubt this could be taken seriously.
by the Olympic Comitee ?
-
Ujin is mad :D
I think both possibilities have their good sides. I'd prefer Main chars though
-
how would you enforce every 1 to use stf's? how would you know if it is infact somes 1 stf and not an alt that they have loads of gens on ?
-
well STF is a must, otherwise i doubt this could be taken seriously.
Where did this attitude come from all of a sudden? What about all the Fallen tournaments and Shogunate clan battle tournament? I recall people taking that pretty seriously and I also recall that teamwork and skill were the deciding factor.
-
Well I hope they would use ENL Map Pack because they have been chosen and made for balance and to be bug-free:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
link: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=196663.0
on this topic
I know the maps and they are perfectly fine ,but on the other hand using them might give some advantage to the teams that will have more hardcore native players who played on these maps.
What do you think ?
-
I favour using the STF route now, simply because of the options it allows. To make it work you could do the following
1) Instead of Class Restrictions within a round go for class restriction within a squad. Each team is being asked to register 16 players so make them register no more than 4 ranged and 4 Cav. Within an actual round they can use which ever players they want.
2) When a team Registers they must assign each of their players a squad number and that player must then create a STF Char using that squad number. For instance if I was registered with squad number 9 I would have to use the STF name of UK_Tomas_9 and I would be registered as ranged
3) Each team then gets to design its own banner which will be put in a special Nations Cup Banner Pack
4) Within the tournament all players must use one of the Heraldic Armours (but not transitional). Archers are the only exception and they can simply choose something that matches as best as possible
5) Before each match, the referees can quickly check that each STF Char has the correct name as registered and that they are the correct class. A quick glance will ensure that the armour is all correct.
6) Finally, to ensure that all chars are in fact STF I am hoping the Meow will do us a favour and validate all the chars at the start and then at the end. I am assuming that a simple query on the database will be able to bring up all players with the UK_ tag and that you can see if they are STF and when they were created. If so then this validation should be extremely easy.
The system above prevents looms, keeps armour at a level where unloomed bows will still be viable, is easy to enforce and still allows plenty of tactics within a team.
Edit: I'm still not against mains though - i'm just pointing out options :D
-
im definatly against any rule that say u must use heraldic mailes
-
If it's not already done I could make a bannerpack with all the nations for people to use during the event.
-
A tournament is intended to showcase skill on an even playing field, correct? Why on earth wouldn't you limit to STF characters? Everyone starts from the same level playing field with the same amount of skillpoints and can buy the same base gear. No one has any sort of loom advantage or disadvantage.
Is this intended to be a sportsmanlike competition or an exhibition to show off shiny toys and grind time?
-
No restrictions
-
Tbh, I'm not afraid of a full plated guy with heirlooms and shit. If he's shit, it doesn't matter, I'll kill him.
-
Tbh, I'm not afraid of a full plated guy with heirlooms and shit. If he's shit, it doesn't matter, I'll kill him.
This is a nations cup, where the teams will consist of a selection of players from the same country, there will barely be any shit players.
-
I favour using the STF route now, simply because of the options it allows. To make it work you could do the following
1) Instead of Class Restrictions within a round go for class restriction within a squad. Each team is being asked to register 16 players so make them register no more than 4 ranged and 4 Cav. Within an actual round they can use which ever players they want.
2) When a team Registers they must assign each of their players a squad number and that player must then create a STF Char using that squad number. For instance if I was registered with squad number 9 I would have to use the STF name of UK_Tomas_9 and I would be registered as ranged
3) Each team then gets to design its own banner which will be put in a special Nations Cup Banner Pack
4) Within the tournament all players must use one of the Heraldic Armours (but not transitional). Archers are the only exception and they can simply choose something that matches as best as possible
5) Before each match, the referees can quickly check that each STF Char has the correct name as registered and that they are the correct class. A quick glance will ensure that the armour is all correct.
6) Finally, to ensure that all chars are in fact STF I am hoping the Meow will do us a favour and validate all the chars at the start and then at the end. I am assuming that a simple query on the database will be able to bring up all players with the UK_ tag and that you can see if they are STF and when they were created. If so then this validation should be extremely easy.
The system above prevents looms, keeps armour at a level where unloomed bows will still be viable, is easy to enforce and still allows plenty of tactics within a team.
Edit: I'm still not against mains though - i'm just pointing out options :D
Seems that everything except 4 makes sense.
-
Almost all normal clanbattles are fought with the normal maincharacters and looms. There were class-restrictions though (only 3 cavs, only 2 tincans etc).
I say lets do it the same here... And why not? If its okay for battles, its okay for the Cup. Where is the cRPG (consistent role playing game) else? This is after all not native.
-
Almost all normal clanbattles are fought with the normal maincharacters and looms. There were class-restrictions though (only 3 cavs, only 2 tincans etc).
I say lets do it the same here... And why not? If its okay for battles, its okay for the Cup. Where is the cRPG (consistent role playing game) else? This is after all not native.
If one can't fight without looms and extra levels one isn't worthy of being in a competition at all. If one can, then what is the problem with the STF restriction?
-
Well it just doesn't feel like your playing with your Roleplay char.
-
If one can't fight without looms and extra levels one isn't worthy of being in a competition at all. If one can, then what is the problem with the STF restriction?
Do you REALLY think it's about that ?
-
when i came with this idea, i imagined countries beeing represented by the player we see everyday on the battlefield, that we are all impressed by.
and the armor thing is bad, you seem to take in account only archers and infantry. i would like to recall their are also hybrid thrower's that have armor wpf restrictions a bit more tricky then that
-
Do you REALLY think it's about that ?
As i've said before, a competition is only worthwhile if the playing field is equal. I'm not sure why looms would even be considered remotely valid in a tournament setting.
-
Because they were the norm in every battle until now. Every clanbattle and (as far as i know) in every tournaments till now too...
They are a large part of what makes people and their chars individual...
-
If we were to all use STF chars, then why not just play in native and called the Native Cup V2.0?
CRPG Nations Cup should be about CRPG players using their CRPG main chars.
Yes, some people will have more looms or higher levels than others, but I doubt there would be any 1 nation that had such an advantage in this regard that it changed the outcome of the tournament at all.
-
Well, STF chars does not limit the diversity we can have in the game. It just limits players levels. That's where it is difference than a native cup.
-Well either what will be the rule, I suggest deciding it a bit quickly. In either case, people will show their respect and will be eager to play. Decide it quickly so that people can choose their teams more effectively at the moment, including their captains and the preperation stage will be lasting shorter. We should know, so we all can be prepared. If it's STF, the teams would be made of good players; if it's main chars, the teams would be made of high leveled-good players with a captain preferably as a cavalry class. Also, class restrictions; if any; will be taken into account as well in the latter.
-
The spirit of cRPG at its core is that people choose how they play. Some wear plate, some have looms, some have levels, some have awesome hairstyles. The spirit of cRPG should be intact in the tournament.
-
Totally agree with the "play the character you want, may it be a main, an alt or even a skip-the-fun character". Hell, cRPG tournament it is.
I'd like to see some equipement restrictions though, based on money. Just don't forget to triple the price of the arrows, like how they tripled the breaking chance to "balance" it pricewise.
Of course, you can let's say set a fix amount for each team of 10 (1 000 000 gold for example), and a team can decide to be all naked with swords. Their choice.
-
The identity of my character doesn't lie in its levels/looms.
If I name a STF SWE_Dezi_Polestagger_lol and dress it up like a clown people will still know who it is.
Use STF's, for the sake of fairness and viability of all.
-
One stack of bodkins is 5k. Is it too much? Remember this will be an organized battle, where shielder classes are supposed to protect the non-shielder classes; not just some ordinary battle in eu1.
-
That doesn't mean it's a battle where archers are "supposed" to use bodkins.
-
Ok, let's make it tatars. Triple it's price and one stack is 7.500.
-
If armour is restricted I would push for STF chars. I build my char based on the fact i will wear gothic plate mostly.
Why would i go 18/21 in a str-loving mod if i wasnt using plate?
-
If armour is restricted I would push for STF chars. I build my char based on the fact i will wear gothic plate mostly.
Why would i go 18/21 in a str-loving mod if i wasnt using plate?
18/21 is viable with medium armor as well, but I understand what is your point.
-
armour restrictions usually mean that more then X(usually 2-3) people cannot use higher then a specific armour, so while there will be tincans there wont be entire teams of them.
-
18/21 is viable with medium armor as well, but I understand what is your point.
I would have more str/IF with medium armour, definately.
24/15 worked best for me with haubergeon iirc.
Sure I can move around fairly fast with 18/21 and haubergeon but i dont expect to be soloing groups in this event.
-
CBA to read the whole thread so I'm asking if one country is allowed to form more than one team? Let's say that maximum of 2 teams per country for example.
-
why? is finland planning to conquer rest of the world?
-
CBA to read the whole thread so I'm asking if one country is allowed to form more than one team? Let's say that maximum of 2 teams per country for example.
So a nation has 2 chances to win..? And smaller nations 1?
-
allow ppl to use their main characters, loomed items and shit. and for gods sake let the whole team be riders/archers if they want to, dont restrict that.
making players use skip the fun chars is just stupid and as mentioned before we can then name it native nation cup and play there
-
I don't think most of you need to worry about having 2 teams, i doubt more then very few are going to have more then 16 players and probably most of the countries won't even get 16.
-
It is not Native!!!!
Your crpg skill is only 1 thing,
Looms lvl are 1 of the things why we are plaing that game, If you remowe that it you can make that event in native.
-
Look, i get that people love their loomed items and that they're fun to play with in battle/siege/strat whatever but let's be realistic here- any imbalance in loom levels is a clear advantage for one team. If this is intended to be a true competition amongst nations then it should start with an even playing field.
So far the arguments for using looms are:
1. It's always been done before.
2. Without looms CRPG is just native
Which, in my opinion are pretty weak as far as justifications go. The first argument is easily shot down in that "that's just how we do it" isn't, and hasn't ever been a valid justification for anything. Just because something has been done one way in the past does not make that method any better than a possible new suggestion, it just makes the method familiar.
The second argument, "it'd be just like native" holds absolutely no water if one has been playing CRPG over the years at all. Pick up a bow in CRPG and shoot for a minute. Now hop on a native server and pick up a bow. Notice the difference in accuracy and flight time? There are weapons, armor, strategies, and mechanics in CRPG that will not be seen on native servers because CRPG is a mod that has been developed for years as a divergence from the base game. To insinuate that the only difference between CRPG and native is loom points is to have a sincere lack of understanding about the base mechanics of CRPG, native, or both.
I get it, people love their looms, and to be honest they're fun to play around with when one is goofing off- but let's be real here. The reason people love their looms is because they provide a tangible benefit for playing this game over a long period of time. I hate to burst anyone's bubble but no one in CRPG has done anything to "earn" a loom point, to begin with. Even at a x1 the worst leecher over time will eventually acquire one or more loom points. Looms are simply a veterans perk, a way of the CRPG dev team to say "thanks for playing our game over a long period of time" and nothing more really. They provide great benefits, sure, but having a series of great benefits that are not standardized in a tournament is like having a race where some cars have nitro and others are the stock model, it's just not even a facade of fair play.
Let's do a simple example, shall we? Take this wonderful tool here...
http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/
...and calculate the difference between an archer with 0 loom points and an archer with a full loomed horn bow + bodkins against an enemy with 50 armor and 60 health. Both archers should have 163 WPF, 18STR, and 6PD
For the lazy:
Base archer 13.9 damage per shot with a headshot of 26.7.
3 to 5 body shots or 2 to 3 headshots to kill the target
Full Loomed archer 20.0 damage per shot with a headshot of 34.8
2 to 3 body shots or or 1 to 2 headshots to kill the target
And that's just the difference in damage, i won't go into accuracy differences or pull up a huge chart of all the melee weapon or cav changes with loom points.
So, the minimum amount of shots to kill with base gear is the same as the maximum amount of shots to kill the same targets with loomed gear. What about this seems remotely sportsmanlike? Sure you can make the argument that the market is open and that people can just buy looms but a team should have to spend hundreds of thousands of gold simply to compete at an equal level with another team. The differences looms make are noticeable and very powerful, else people wouldn't be buying them or look forward to looming their gear. Such imbalance in power has absolutely no place in an event that seeks to be a tournament showcase the most skillful players from each nation.
I'd really like to see an argument for looms that takes this simple fact into account. The data is pretty clear, STF's should be used in this tournament (and any other event that claims to be a tournament) and looms should be explicitly disallowed in order to create a playing field that highlights skill, not veteran's perks.
-
If looms aren't allowed, what about levels? They provide a big difference as well.
STF characters only?
-
just add a poll for it
-
No restrictions imo.
cRPG has individuality with builds and gear choices.
If someone wants to go full milanese with great mauls then it reflects on them, whatever. If the whole team wants to do that then they reflect on their country etc.
-
just add a poll for it
Polls are fucked up, everyone, even people not concerned will vote, so it's preffered to have people not be lazy and post their opinion in the thread.
-
Well we could always just push chadz to fix the Battlegroups mode.
Then people can use whatever char they want, be it their main, an alt or STF. However the equipment for the whole team will be set by the organisers and will be the same for every team. The teams just pick what ever they want from the set.
Regarding setting this up, the organisers will set up the teams, set the equipment and keep control of them. Then when a battle is organised they will give the correct passwords out to the team Captains who go from there.
This way there are no class restirctions to worry about, there are no looms and all teams have access to the same equipment.
-
Summer? Really? Summer is a vacation and holidays with a computer is bad vacation. STF? For testing skills the best is native. This is cRPG, so from my point of view restrictions is a bad idea. Don't take this too seriously, it should be fun :wink:
-
I second a poll...
-
If we were to all use STF chars, then why not just play in native and called the Native Cup V2.0?
CRPG Nations Cup should be about CRPG players using their CRPG main chars.
Yes, some people will have more looms or higher levels than others, but I doubt there would be any 1 nation that had such an advantage in this regard that it changed the outcome of the tournament at all.
This is my opinion as well...
-
cRPG still has many differences to native even without your main chars. Dumbed down combat system, with STF characters you can still customize your gear, your build, there are no specific classes. Imo Ylca your arguments make perfect sense however cRPG community has never really wanted to have tournaments on equal grounds and if there was a vote, no restrictions would probably win. That's why the competitive play takes place in native :P
-
Cyber mad cause' bad... Harr-harr etc.
"Dumbed down combat system", I dunno, I've been a pure c-rpg player (and basically pure polearm at that) and I'm doing pretty darn well in the ongoing Native duel tourney. Sure it's slower, but it's the same thing.
And I'd argue that c-rpg is way more fun for competitive since more playstyles are actually viable. Call me a casual or a nub or whatever, but I find Native battles to just be tedious and boring. Shield, cheapest sword and 2 stacks of the best throwing I can get, hi-ho here we go "infantry".
Still, as said earlier I truly believe stf's are the way to go for this kind of thing, just for the sake of fairness.
I also vouch for a poll; many people seem to think the same thing.
-
Let me make a correction about a misunderstood concept:
STF=Native
this is incorrect
Figure out why.
-
theres obvisously 2 groups in here now...
the competive ones and the more competive ones
make a poll?
-
Let me make a correction about a misunderstood concept:
STF=Native
this is incorrect
Figure out why.
you are right, in fact it's even worse then in native. because in native you get to be all melee classes in one, you can also be a good archer, bcarry a decent shield if you take a 2hander. and you can randomly switch class. With STF you are purely stuck in one role with absolutly no variation whatsoever!
looms, levels, all part of the game. why do you play this mod then? This is C-RPG(and i would like to stress on the fact this is called crpg!!!) cup, like the cup in native but adapted to the mod. It's not STF Nations cup.
Having a STF cup is having like native cup but even worse (see first paragraphe), the only thing that is different is some mechanics (and some are pretty f***** up :lol: )
In my nation, in all the players willing to join, none of them would have this idea of STF, they assume it's their Main! Stop Being elitist douchebags(and that group is always the loudest) and start having some FUN!
we all know that if you lose, it's always because the other player has looms or better level. but it woulmd never come to your mind that your opponent was maybe better then you!
-
we all know that if you lose, it's always because the other player has looms or better level. but it woulmd never come to your mind that your opponent was maybe better then you!
If our opponents can win because they're better players, then there is no harm by using STF characters? Since better players will be even better with both sides not using looms.
-
what is this stf = native crap :P Crpg didnt have looms for a long time it was about being able to pick different combinatations :P
main will be fine ofc but there should be a minimum of 2 weeks or so to allow people to respec so that a team isnt 100% 2h etc :P
-
cRPG still has many differences to native even without your main chars. Dumbed down combat system, with STF characters you can still customize your gear, your build, there are no specific classes. Imo Ylca your arguments make perfect sense however cRPG community has never really wanted to have tournaments on equal grounds and if there was a vote, no restrictions would probably win. That's why the competitive play takes place in native :P
well, they spent their time grinding instead of playing to one day being able to play with what they grinded :s
-
Not interested in the cup tbh or anything but...
Tbh, if you're gonna match the skill/and whatever against eachother i'd say it's better to allow their main non-STF's that they're accustomed to and know how to perform with.
-
It seems pretty split on whether to go with STF chars or mains....
Id agree to stay with the mains because honestly this is a tournament for the best of the best and the best tend to be grizzled war veterans of Crpg and thus all will have looms/gens and higher levels. I honestly dont remember Crpg ever being very fair at all, everybody started this game as a peasant and was brutally murdered for about a gen or 2. The only people who may be "disadvantaged" are the players who are at gen 1-4 and lets be honest they probably wont be in this fight because they dont have as much experience as the rest of us entering this competition. I dont see the harm in pitting looms against looms and its not like one individual player will be able to defeat an entire team because he has fully loomed plate armor.
The most effective team is going to be the most experienced and cohesive fighting unit and looms are insignificant in comparison to that. Looms to me only enhance a persons fighting style making it more unique so why dumb that down by forcing everyone to be on STF. The best part of Crpg is that people have a set fighting style depending on their build and looms and that shouldnt be taken away from them.
The only real benefit i see about STF is that i can change my build to anything i want depending on what my team would need instead of being picked for what my main is known for.
-
This tournament won't be as full of the "top" players as you think. In reality most teams will probably have to scrape together any players they can get.
-
No restrictions
-
stf only
-
Not as top heavy for you guys but I have all of NA to pick from honestly so getting high level players with high gens will be easier than you guys since you have to stay inside your lil countries. But hey you will still have ping advantage so be happy about that.
I vote no restrictions. Who cares if you fight a team of all cav bring a couple pikes and arrows or even some xbows to counter, even maps can counter cav. The point is a balanced team will probably be better suited to fight the other nations in any case. The worst thing would be a team of 2h plate armor crutchers but that can even be countered by good cav and heavy hitting archers who could even kite them. So why restrict things at all it should be fought and won by any team using any means.
-
stf only
Fuck STF, Main chars only!(If someone has STF as main char, it's ok) 8-)
-
Fuck STF, Main chars only!(If someone has STF as main char, it's ok) 8-)
What if someone want to use a STF alt?
-
Well i meant that every char is allowed not just shitty stf :D
-
Any info about approximate starting date(June, July, August...)?
-
Well we could always just push chadz to fix the Battlegroups mode.
Then people can use whatever char they want, be it their main, an alt or STF. However the equipment for the whole team will be set by the organisers and will be the same for every team. The teams just pick what ever they want from the set.
Regarding setting this up, the organisers will set up the teams, set the equipment and keep control of them. Then when a battle is organised they will give the correct passwords out to the team Captains who go from there.
This way there are no class restirctions to worry about, there are no looms and all teams have access to the same equipment.
Clean and easy.
-
But it requires a battlegroup mode fix. Which is less easy.
Would be nice to have it fixed though.
-
Early July is the current goal for a starting date.
We might host some test-matches in June, to test out different rulesets, will most likely be done using clans instead of nations teams though.
-
New suggested Rule, instead of allowing only 4 players out of the same clan in the 16 man team, we wanted to change it so that no more then 4 or 5 (not yet decided) members of the same clan can be active on the 10 man team at the same time. This should allow for easier teamformation for certain if not most nations.
-
I very much support that, considering it's summertime and scraping people together is already hard.
-
No restrictions? Ok, interresting
How about 10 guys full heirloomed plate with a great maul, how would you play this as a team?
:twisted:
one lancer is all it takes
-
I read through most of the topic, and I got the main arguments, so I'll try to change some minds about it ( even though it seems impossible :p)
Main vs STF
Arguments for main:
-It is c-rpg.We play it to be able to have our own characters with their own looms. Otherwise it would be Native !
-We wouldn't have our own names !
-Overall, it wouldn't reflect what happens on the battlefield!
My arguments:
-crpg is not about looms, it is about the infinite possibilities of classes that native does not offer.Looms are but merely a bonus for
veterans.Having loomed items against someone who doesn't is however a decisive advantage, which makes the competition..well..uncompetitive.
-As Dezilagel said, it would still be fairly easy to recognise someone if they were to use a similar name. My current name is Skono_The_Slow, I would simply change it to FR_Skono_The_Slow.With the tags, it won't make a difference.Even without tags, it won't be difficult.
-We are about to fight a tournament, which means it has NOTHING to do with the day-to-day battlefields.It is completely different.
Item/class restriction vs No restriction
Arguments against restrictions:
-It wouldn't be a c-rpg tournament, but a native ! We need to be able to use the weapons we usually use !
-Diversity is what it is all about! Let people be what they wanna be ! Peace and love man ! *love sign*
-There is always a counterpart to classes, so it's ok to let teams specialise as they wish.
My arguments :
-Agreed. We should be able to use the weapons we use generally.
-Sure.
The problem with no restrictions is the following: If a team goes full plate and plated charger because of no restrictions, it will probably go to the final rounds, even if they re not as skilled as other teams. So what do we need?
We need a way to allow full diversity but also limit abuses within it.
Methods:
1-Set a fixed amount of classes within the team
ie: of 10 players, 4 infantry,4 ranged, 2 cavalry.
This allows full control and balance of classes.
However, it does limit the diversity.
2- As one poster suggested pertinently: Set a limited amount of gold per TEAM.
Im my opinion, this is the fairest of all. Every team receives the same amount of gold to buy armor and weapons.
They take the class they want, the equipment they want. Their choice. Full freedom of class and item.
Moreover,this will disallow abuses, such as a full plated-cav-lancer team.
This will allow team cooperation and tactics to come foward ( "Ok, so you take the plate, I take the light armor: you are cav, right, mr.V? Ok, we have a credit of 30k left...you will be light armored then".)
Of course, this will limit the item choice, but in my opinion, it is the best mix of freedom and fairness.
Now that we have got the arguments sorted it, it comes to the organizers to decide what they would like.
Anyway, thank you for reading, and most of all thanks for this great tournament and have fun ! :D
-
why not let the Teams decide just before they have a Fight instead of makeing fix Rules of Gear/Class Restrictions.
probably the Tourny will take a while so each Fight could be organised like some Clan scrims.
another Job for the Captains then....
-
why not let the Teams decide just before they have a Fight instead of makeing fix Rules of Gear/Class Restrictions.
probably the Tourny will take a while so each Fight could be organised like some Clan scrims.
another Job for the Captains then....
Because you need an official set of rules to fall back on if the Captains disagree. However you could do what you say be giving each clan full control over the equipment/class rules when fighting on their home map. But that is a lot of messing about imo and i'd rather just have a set of rules set out before hand.
-
sure
and i see no problem too set Rules but at the same time keep being flexibel too the different Situations of each Team
Also it would be more interesting if the different Teams can somehow evolve/use there own Tactics due the Classes they field ,instead of giving each Team strict Standards.
and so the cRPG factor of the tourny would stand out even more
I just wrote in another Thread that if u know that GK(for exampel) is on the Server u know whats the Deal and should see it as a Challenge....instead of change the Game too cut down
some dedicated Teamplay.
So if the Nations with a smaller player pool have lots of good 2h/Cav or Range they induvidual Str. shouldnt be decreased by unflexibel Restrictions as it will also decrease the Quality of the Tourny-battels overall.
-
sure
and i see no problem too set Rules but at the same time keep being flexibel too the different Situations of each Team
Also it would be more interesting if the different Teams can somehow evolve/use there own Tactics due the Classes they field ,instead of giving each Team strict Standards.
and so the cRPG factor of the tourny would stand out even more
I just wrote in another Thread that if u know that GK(for exampel) is on the Server u know whats the Deal and should see it as a Challenge....instead of change the Game too cut down
some dedicated Teamplay.
So if the Nations with a smaller player pool have lots of good 2h/Cav or Range they induvidual Str. shouldnt be decreased by unflexibel Restrictions as it will also decrease the Quality of the Tourny-battels overall.
If Battlegroups worked i'd suggest that each team just be given a whole range of gear and they can use whatever gear they want from it. Pity it is broken - hint hint chadz ;)
-
So is their any general sense or idea of what the rules may be? The most obvious on being STF vs mains because thats a definite factor I will be considering when choosing my team. I know you that you dont but mainly on when you will be deciding what the basic rules will be.
-
If you want restrictions you should send a message to chadz about it so he can implement it into crpg (since you think current crpg is so flawed that it needs to be changed to achieve balance).
No restrictions please. Lets play crpg.
-
restrictions would be good only if we would play one round and thats it
if there will be more than one round i see no reason for teams to have restrictions as they can pick proper gear to face their enemy in future rounds
-
New suggested Rule, instead of allowing only 4 players out of the same clan in the 16 man team, we wanted to change it so that no more then 4 or 5 (not yet decided) members of the same clan can be active on the 10 man team at the same time. This should allow for easier teamformation for certain if not most nations.
That needs to be at least 5 without captain.
Otherwise its bullshit =)
Also i suggest some limits :
1 Crushthrough
1 Heavy armour
2 Cav
2 Ranged ( HA counts as cav+range )
-
New suggested Rule, instead of allowing only 4 players out of the same clan in the 16 man team, we wanted to change it so that no more then 4 or 5 (not yet decided) members of the same clan can be active on the 10 man team at the same time. This should allow for easier teamformation for certain if not most nations.
So clans which include most if not all valuable cRPG players from a nation will actually be forced to remove some of the members from the clan for the duration of this cup? This rule is idiotic, to say the least.
-
I don't understand why there should be any restrictions on anything especially classes. If I want my team to be a bunch of 2h plate crutchers what's wrong with that!? We may get brutally destroyed against a team that has good cav and archers to cut us down. Even a team full of cav would be fairly easy to stop if you had plenty of pikes and good archers and of course patience. The only problem I see if it's like 6 archers that just try and kite the entire time then that would suck but heavy cav can beat that.
-
Omg, some guys don't really understand why there are restrictions in some tournaments...
Scenario :
1) A topskilled team with full loomed set being only cav ( lancers/1h/archers ) can own every team who is on ground ( few exceptions )
There should be exceptions because the tournament wouldn't be the same if there are teams winning just because they are all cav/range/maulers.
Of course, this does not represent cRPG as it is in real, because crpg is mostly unbalanced because one team has always more cav/range that can decide a battle's result.
Last but not least, I agree with Cicero and ToT with the player restriction. I think Byzantium will anyway delete this rule.
Cicero's suggestion would be nice, but I also would prefer 1 more cav or archer :
1 Crushthrough
1 Heavy Armor ( better armor than the restriction )
2 Cavs ( if you have 3 range ) / 3 Cavs ( 2 range )
2 or 3 Range
-
Omg, some guys don't really understand why there are restrictions in some tournaments...
Scenario :
1) A Topskilledteam with full loomed set being only cav ( lancers/1h/archers ) can own every team who is on ground ( few exceptions )
You said topskilled team which is what a tournament exactly is. It's an opportunity for the best to prove themselves and you think a team full of cav using lances/1h/bows really are that OP. First off maps decide how effective cav are and if you are all infantry it should be easy. Couple siege shields to protect pikes with ranged in the middle and bam wait for the cav to make a mistake and get murdered.
Restrictions are lame and shouldn't have to be here for a tournament between nations. Even if the other team has all loomed gear well I wouldnt give a shit because I know they must have worked hard for that and deserve to be bestest nation of swords and horses because they play hard.
This tournament isn't clan based its about each nation and I know for me at least that I will be playing with a lot of players, I would normally never play with. That's what will make this tourney the best and I'm going to have fun with and these restrictions take that away as they force us to play in a way we normally wouldnt.
-
Actually it might be interesting to see no restrictions just to see how it shakes out.
The difficulty then though, that the choice of map becomes the main "restriction". A city map would favour heavy infantry while an open map would favour range & cavalry.
The best compromise map I can think of off the top of my head would that classic gladiator arena map. Not too big, cover in middle with the low walls, a few posts scattered around, but still room for cav to circle.
pretty fuckin great idea :D
-
Don't allow too heavy horses. We played a friendly game and the enemy team had 2 Mamluke-horses with heaviest possible armors and huscarls and was just bumping with shields up the whole time...
Seems kinda retarded (if quite effective) if you ask me. And it does not in the least resemble a normal playstyle.
No restrictions would mean that just the whole team can go tincan with huscarls on Plated Charger.
That would be a serious unbalance and is the reason why clanbattles have restrictions to prevent that from happening.
-
I think the rule of 4 players from same clan at the same time should be removed if it's going to be an obstacle for Polands participation. They might get a little advantage if lots of players are from Greys, but I don't think this is so serious comptetition that it really matters?
-
Don't allow too heavy horses. We played a friendly game and the enemy team had 2 Mamluke-horses with heaviest possible armors and huscarls and was just bumping with shields up the whole time...
Seems kinda retarded (if quite effective) if you ask me. And it does not in the least resemble a normal playstyle.
No restrictions would mean that just the whole team can go tincan with huscarls on Plated Charger.
That would be a serious unbalance and is the reason why clanbattles have restrictions to prevent that from happening.
Agreed.
Should have a sort of "cost efficient" balance :
Max 1 heavy horse.
Max 1 tincan.
Max 4 bodkin arrows or 4 steel bolts, or any combination for a total of 4.
Max 2 longspear/pikes.
Max 1 Great maul. (or 2 mallet)
Max 1 steel shield.
No restriction for all the other stuff.
For example, of course.
-
New suggested Rule, instead of allowing only 4 players out of the same clan in the 16 man team, we wanted to change it so that no more then 4 or 5 (not yet decided) members of the same clan can be active on the 10 man team at the same time. This should allow for easier teamformation for certain if not most nations.
In this way you exclude polish team from the tournament :rolleyes: This or what Tot said.
So clans which include most if not all valuable cRPG players from a nation will actually be forced to remove some of the members from the clan for the duration of this cup? This rule is idiotic, to say the least.
-
bulzur your range rule suggestion sucks :)
1) You didnt mind about thrower, so infinity throwing weapons
2) 4 Bodkins Arrows or 4 Steel Bolts, 4 in total = means in a real battle realistically 4 xbowman and just 2 archers :P or 4 archers who are running out of ammo really fast.
Rest seems to be ok but maybe the restriction in pikes/longspears is a bit ridiciolous, just a normal blockable weapon and with a horse restrictions, there wont be many pikers.
-
bulzur your range rule suggestion sucks :)
1) You didnt mind about thrower, so infinity throwing weapons
2) 4 Bodkins Arrows or 4 Steel Bolts, 4 in total = means in a real battle realistically 4 xbowman and just 2 archers :P or 4 archers who are running out of ammo really fast.
Rest seems to be ok but maybe the restriction in pikes/longspears is a bit ridiciolous, just a normal blockable weapon and with a horse restrictions, there wont be many pikers.
Running out of ammo ? I believe there's normal bolts and normal arrows to, no ?
But since we restrict tincan, plate armor, we should restrict good pierce for range too, so that it's more strategic : will you waste a bodkin arrow on a horse, or keep it for the tincan, etc...
For throwers, yep, totally my bad. How could i forgot them...
Max 1 slot of throwing lances. Else... take what you want.
Pikes/longspears are not ridiculous, especially if used with a plated charger guy, and that they're high agi. Plated chargers = easy bumps = easy kill for longspear/pikeman.
2 seems enough for 10 players, don't you think ? Having 30% of longspear/pike seems a bit... too many.
-
Looting allowed, y/n?
-
Is deciding on a set of rules allowed?