Author Topic: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions  (Read 18512 times)

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Offline Ylca

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2012, 11:59:20 am »
+3
Look, i get that people love their loomed items and that they're fun to play with in battle/siege/strat whatever but let's be realistic here- any imbalance in loom levels is a clear advantage for one team. If this is intended to be a true competition amongst nations then it should start with an even playing field.

So far the arguments for using looms are:

1. It's always been done before.

2. Without looms CRPG is just native

Which, in my opinion are pretty weak as far as justifications go. The first argument is easily shot down in that "that's just how we do it" isn't, and hasn't ever been a valid justification for anything. Just because something has been done one way in the past does not make that method any better than a possible new suggestion, it just makes the method familiar.

The second argument, "it'd be just like native" holds absolutely no water if one has been playing CRPG over the years at all. Pick up a bow in CRPG and shoot for a minute. Now hop on a native server and pick up a bow. Notice the difference in accuracy and flight time? There are weapons, armor, strategies, and mechanics in CRPG that will not be seen on native servers because CRPG is a mod that has been developed for years as a divergence from the base game. To insinuate that the only difference between CRPG and native is loom points is to have a sincere lack of understanding about the base mechanics of CRPG, native, or both.

I get it, people love their looms, and to be honest they're fun to play around with when one is goofing off- but let's be real here. The reason people love their looms is because they provide a tangible benefit for playing this game over a long period of time. I hate to burst anyone's bubble but no one in CRPG has done anything to "earn" a loom point, to begin with. Even at a x1 the worst leecher over time will eventually acquire one or more loom points. Looms are simply a veterans perk, a way of the CRPG dev team to say "thanks for playing our game over a long period of time" and nothing more really. They provide great benefits, sure, but having a series of great benefits that are not standardized in a tournament is like having a race where some cars have nitro and others are the stock model, it's just not even a facade of fair play.

Let's do a simple example, shall we? Take this wonderful tool here...

http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/

...and calculate the difference between an archer with 0 loom points and an archer with a full loomed horn bow + bodkins against an enemy with 50 armor and 60 health. Both archers should have 163 WPF, 18STR, and 6PD

For the lazy:

Base archer 13.9 damage per shot with a headshot of 26.7.   
3 to 5 body shots or 2 to 3 headshots to kill the target

Full Loomed archer 20.0 damage per shot with a headshot of 34.8
2 to 3 body shots or or 1 to 2 headshots to kill the target

And that's just the difference in damage, i won't go into accuracy differences or pull up a huge chart of all the melee weapon or cav changes with loom points.


So, the minimum amount of shots to kill with base gear is the same as the maximum amount of shots to kill the same targets with loomed gear. What about this seems remotely sportsmanlike? Sure you can make the argument that the market is open and that people can just buy looms but a team should have to spend hundreds of thousands of gold simply to compete at an equal level with another team. The differences looms make are noticeable and very powerful, else people wouldn't be buying them or look forward to looming their gear. Such imbalance in power has absolutely no place in an event that seeks to be a tournament showcase the most skillful players from each nation.

I'd really like to see an argument for looms that takes this simple fact into account. The data is pretty clear, STF's should be used in this tournament (and any other event that claims to be a tournament) and looms should be explicitly disallowed in order to create a playing field that highlights skill, not veteran's perks.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2012, 12:22:01 pm »
0
If looms aren't allowed, what about levels? They provide a big difference as well.

STF characters only?

Offline Chasey

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2012, 12:26:25 pm »
0
just add a poll for it
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Offline Tomas_of_Miles

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2012, 12:32:40 pm »
0
No restrictions imo.
cRPG has individuality with builds and gear choices.

If someone wants to go full milanese with great mauls then it reflects on them, whatever. If the whole team wants to do that then they reflect on their country etc.
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Offline MrExxc

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2012, 01:19:01 pm »
0
just add a poll for it

Polls are fucked up, everyone, even people not concerned will vote, so it's preffered to have people not be lazy and post their opinion in the thread.

Offline Tomas

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2012, 01:19:18 pm »
+1
Well we could always just push chadz to fix the Battlegroups mode.

Then people can use whatever char they want, be it their main, an alt or STF.  However the equipment for the whole team will be set by the organisers and will be the same for every team.  The teams just pick what ever they want from the set.

Regarding setting this up, the organisers will set up the teams, set the equipment and keep control of them.  Then when a battle is organised they will give the correct passwords out to the team Captains who go from there.

This way there are no class restirctions to worry about, there are no looms and all teams have access to the same equipment.

Offline Harpag

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2012, 02:39:51 pm »
+1
Summer? Really? Summer is a vacation and holidays with a computer is bad vacation. STF? For testing skills the best is native. This is cRPG, so from my point of view restrictions is a bad idea. Don't take this too seriously, it should be fun  :wink:
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Offline BlameMeForTheNoise

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2012, 04:03:07 pm »
0
I second a poll...

Offline Tristan

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2012, 06:58:34 pm »
0
If we were to all use STF chars, then why not just play in native and called the Native Cup V2.0?

CRPG Nations Cup should be about CRPG players using their CRPG main chars.

Yes, some people will have more looms or higher levels than others, but I doubt there would be any 1 nation that had such an advantage in this regard that it changed the outcome of the tournament at all.

This is my opinion as well...
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Offline Cyber

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2012, 07:05:42 pm »
0
cRPG still has many differences to native even without your main chars. Dumbed down combat system, with STF characters you can still customize your gear, your build, there are no specific classes. Imo Ylca your arguments make perfect sense however cRPG community has never really wanted to have tournaments on equal grounds and if there was a vote, no restrictions would probably win. That's why the competitive play takes place in native :P
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 07:08:44 pm by Cyber »

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2012, 07:36:12 pm »
0
Cyber mad cause' bad... Harr-harr etc.

"Dumbed down combat system", I dunno, I've been a pure c-rpg player (and basically pure polearm at that) and I'm doing pretty darn well in the ongoing Native duel tourney. Sure it's slower, but it's the same thing.

And I'd argue that c-rpg is way more fun for competitive since more playstyles are actually viable. Call me a casual or a nub or whatever, but I find Native battles to just be tedious and boring. Shield, cheapest sword and 2 stacks of the best throwing I can get, hi-ho here we go "infantry".

Still, as said earlier I truly believe stf's are the way to go for this kind of thing, just for the sake of fairness.

I also vouch for a poll; many people seem to think the same thing.
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Offline Ronin

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2012, 07:52:35 pm »
0
Let me make a correction about a misunderstood concept:

STF=Native
this is incorrect

Figure out why.
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Offline SoA_Sir_ODHarry

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2012, 09:20:09 pm »
+1
theres obvisously 2 groups in here now...
the competive ones and the more competive ones

make a poll?
 
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Offline Lactose_the_intolerant

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2012, 07:02:12 pm »
0
Let me make a correction about a misunderstood concept:

STF=Native
this is incorrect

Figure out why.

you are right, in fact it's even worse then in native. because in native you get to be all melee classes in one, you can also be a good archer, bcarry a decent shield if you take a 2hander. and you can randomly switch class. With STF you are purely stuck in one role with absolutly no variation whatsoever!

looms, levels, all part of the game. why do you play this mod then? This is C-RPG(and i would like to stress on the fact this is called crpg!!!) cup, like the cup in native but adapted to the mod. It's not STF Nations cup.
Having a STF cup is having like native cup but even worse (see first paragraphe), the only thing that is different is some mechanics (and some are pretty f***** up  :lol: )

In my nation, in all the players willing to join, none of them would have this idea of STF, they assume it's their Main! Stop Being elitist douchebags(and that group is always the loudest) and start having some FUN!

we all know that if you lose, it's always because the other player has looms or better level. but it woulmd never come to your mind that your opponent was maybe better then you!

Offline Miralay

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Re: cRPG Nations Cup Rule discussions
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2012, 08:10:24 pm »
0
we all know that if you lose, it's always because the other player has looms or better level. but it woulmd never come to your mind that your opponent was maybe better then you!

If our opponents can win because they're better players, then there is no harm by using STF characters? Since better players will be even better with both sides not using looms.