You dont need to do that with everything you balance. Ranged needed to get off roofs and their damage was stupid for the effort required, roof or no roof. I wouldn't mind seeing some accuracy increase if thats necessary, but you still do decent damage for what you actually have to do, considering what you have to do for any other class. Being encouraged to aim for the head makes it a bit more in line with other classes, but its still very 1 sided skill wise.
The idea is that ranged have to work for their kills and damage, especially if you're on a freaking horse. Maybe they should slow all the projectiles down so you have to judge distance more, that with higher accuracy might be good
You dont need to do that with everything you balance. Ranged needed to get off roofs and their damage was stupid for the effort required, roof or no roof. I wouldn't mind seeing some accuracy increase if thats necessary, but you still do decent damage for what you actually have to do, considering what you have to do for any other class. Being encouraged to aim for the head makes it a bit more in line with other classes, but its still very 1 sided skill wise.
I predict stones will become the new top dog by 2014!
Leave time for it to balance out. Good ranged players will fill the shoes of people who just wanted to sit on a roof and shoot.
.... considering what you have to do for any other class.....
The idea is that ranged have to work for their kills and damage, especially if you're on a freaking horse.
Rather than reduce the diversity, it is better to increase it. Add new units, such as camels or elephants. Relax - at the cost of upkeep one elephant should work half the clan.I'm sure you Greys would really like that
Rather than reduce the diversity, it is better to increase it. Add new units, such as camels or elephants. Relax - at the cost of upkeep one elephant should work half the clan. Look at this: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23133.0.html This is a joke, but it shows the desire of people for diversify.
- Don't nerf pikes, they have been nerfed a lot already. Only a valid weapon because of the amount of cav.
I'm sure you Greys would really like thatI said it was a joke. Glaring example. I asked also to refrain from personal trips. That is not what's going on. Incidentally, for our clan Strategus is the most important . Our faction is mostly melee players, and our specialty is taking spawns. Therefore, for us new balnas is great. Personally, I hate horse archers, because I don't know how to kill them. Foot archers I don't like, because I can't catch them also. The question is whether personal dislike is a good reason to nerf them? I believe not, because it reduces the diversity of units and spoils teamwork in cRPG. I know ... A true warriors uses only 2 h, the rest is lame, who has the audacity disturb them in work :wink:
2h/Polearm users are the only class that is exposed to all types of damage, and has a limited means of protection. They have to have some advantages, right? It is THE hardest class to master ( no need to argue with that ), so it is only fair to keep them on top of melee "food chain".
2h/Polearm users are the only class that is exposed to all types of damage, and has a limited means of protection. They have to have some advantages, right? It is THE hardest class to master ( no need to argue with that ), so it is only fair to keep them on top of melee "food chain".
As for diversity, it is natural for players to move towards 2h swords - the most challenging and rewarding type of combat in Mount and Blade.
No need to argue with that? Ever played a HA? Lets say 4 in 5 aimed headshots while riding on average is to "master" it. But in the current situation.. I have yet to meet somebody to get 4 out of 5 aimed shots (nonheadshots) as hits on average, dont get me started on headshots... yet in melee I have met quite some people that are close mastering it, and at very least 25-40% of the 2h/polearmers in EU can block/feint advanced moves reliably.
worry about 1-4 different attack directions
find it far more easier and safer to lead my xbow to one shot a horse!
I strongly disagree with this.
I do agree melee is very rewarding as far as combat in the game goes. I love melee.
But... the hardest class to master? The most challenging? Eh...define "master".
Maybe a better way to say it is 2h & Poles have the highest learning curve because the mouse attack/block form of combat is pretty unique. It's not hard to "learn" how to shoot a bow other than adjusting to arc and missile speed.
But once you get the basics down blocking and attacking isn't too bad. I would dare to say that it actually is much harder to master a ranged weapon in this game, because your aim will always need to be changed to depend on the enemy's position to you, what direction they are going, what your height is in relation to their height, if it's raining, if friendlies are in the way or may become in the way before the arrow arrives, etc. With melee you need to keep yourself in range and worry about 1-4 different attack directions, but that becomes second nature/muscle reflex. Ranged still has muscle reflex but the scenarios where you need to adjust your attack location are infinite.
There. I said it. And I stand by it.
you trollin right?
yea if people just held to basic attacks 1 click at the time. last time i checked people were doing feints, hold attacks, spinthrust, hiltslash etc
find it far more easier and safer to lead my xbow to one shot a horse!
Well, I don't agree with you since imho, melee has an almost infinite skill ceiling.
As a ranged player you shoot stuff. You can get damn good at shooting stuff, but that's still what you do.
In a melee you play against someone. And as people learn new tricks and skills people adapt to that and develop their own which people adapt to and... It never really stops (although it has slowed down quite a lot lately since combat is so slow).
Well, I don't agree with you since imho, melee has an almost infinite skill ceiling.
As a ranged player you shoot stuff. You can get damn good at shooting stuff, but that's still what you do.
In a melee you play against someone. And as people learn new tricks and skills people adapt to that and develop their own which people adapt to and... It never really stops (although it has slowed down quite a lot lately since combat is so slow).
Ranged play against each other. Example:
I just killed Mtemtko 3 times and he killed me once. Ranged fighting against each other is quite a skill. You try a full speed HA fight in open plains and land 4 out of 4 arrows or just head shot me like Mtemtko did.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, in fact it's the smart thing to do. But it's hypocritical for a pikeman or danish greatswordsman to talk about how ranged lacks skill because they get to attack melee when melee can't attack them back.
Don't they both? I feel like the infinite skill ceiling for a melee unit = you always chamber/block anything that comes, and are able to feint/hold/kick to ensure that every swing you have connects with the enemy's head using good speed bonus.
As an archer wouldn't that same infinite skill ceiling = a headshot with every arrow fired? Both are impossible to reach, yet both can be continuously pursued.
Also you play against someone as an archer... what else could you be shooting at? :P
It's you verse them; you are trying to hit them/anticipate their jukes, while they will do whatever they can to close the gap and dodge arrows. I see no difference in the PvP aspect of archer & melee outside of the context of the fight.
Yes, but that is mostly just thanks to your aim. You are not as all dependent on your opponent and what he's doing.
Face it, the melee system has much, much more depth to it. Ranged is like a 2003 shooter. Like playing Worms with a wide crosshair. Or something like that.
Ranged play against each other. Example:
I just killed Mtemtko 3 times and he killed me once. Ranged fighting against each other is quite a skill. You try a full speed HA fight in open plains and land 4 out of 4 arrows or just head shot me like Mtemtko did.
Screw you man im L25 and I havent been an HA for more than a year back (came back last friday and rerolled HA) and you have been playing for atleast half a year, dont compare me with you
Retards...
It took me 9 arrow hits to kill oldknight in his heraldic mail with tabard. Sure on an open map I can shoot him off his horse and circle him till kingdom come. But the likelihood is that a team mate will come to help, or several. It also took me 18 arrow hits to kill 2 guys in red tunic over mail. One of them I headshotted in a great helm. Fact is that switching targets isn't all that helpful because the damage output is low. They aren't mobile snipers. They should either have decent damage, but poor accuracy, or good accuracy but lower damage. Right now they have neither and are pretty crap with both.
When cav get an HA on their tail and you shoot arrow after arrow into their body (not horses) and they don't bother to swerve, change direction and get away, you know there's a problem.
Ranged have always been key in taking down horses. When it took 3-4 arrows from a hornbow to down a courser, they were very important as even one arrow had a good effect. Now there's no point in aiming for horses especially with the very buggy head hitboxes. Even worse for HA who used to concentrate on cav but now should just hunt very light inf instead.
What does this have to do with the original topic?
Retards...
Unit diversity, efficency of a class, how many people playing that class.
I hope its not too hard for you to notice anything related to the original topic.
It is hard to see how one class requires more skill then another is relevant though, especially considering that arguement has been proven fruitless since the start of warband, and neither changes minds nor goes anywhere.
It is hard to see how one class requires more skill then another is relevant though, especially considering that arguement has been proven fruitless since the start of warband, and neither changes minds nor goes anywhere.¸
Well, I don't agree with you since imho, melee has an almost infinite skill ceiling.
As a ranged player you shoot stuff. You can get damn good at shooting stuff, but that's still what you do.
In a melee you play against someone. And as people learn new tricks and skills people adapt to that and develop their own which people adapt to and... It never really stops (although it has slowed down quite a lot lately since combat is so slow).
Melee is by far the easiest class by my experience, thats why I chose to play a more specialized class as an archer, since I have to be good both in range and melee. But then the nerfs started kicking in and I keep getting killed by people with a lot less skill than me in melee, because my archer can't even wound them eficiently before they close in. This makes ranged useless and turns crpg into a melee centred mod. Just like 80%+ of the players want it. And sadly native remains as a winner when it comes to class ballance.becasue those guys were payed to make a good game, and they'd be doing it all day, with probably(and i hope so) a degree of some sort which shows they can really be good gamemakers, and i think your not giving our dev team enoguh credits for what they're doing for this community, so STFU and GTFO, if you want to have a rangefest go buy wFaS, i know i'll stay here with my cavfest.
becasue those guys were payed to make a good game, and they'd be doing it all day, with probably(and i hope so) a degree of some sort which shows they can really be good gamemakers, and i think your not giving our dev team enoguh credits for what they're doing for this community, so STFU and GTFO, if you want to have a rangefest go buy wFaS, i know i'll stay here with my cavfest.
I do give credit to the dev team, especialy when it comes to adding unnecessary patches that end up gimping all ranged classes. And I shouldn't have to GTFO just because my longbow sucks now. What if CRPG sudenly had a feature that gimped your class? Would you GTFO?
One thing I liked about Native (where no class had more than 16 strength) was the diversity that each class held. Infantry and most cavalry had the option of using shields, throwing, 1hand, 2hand, polearms. Archers and crossbowman alike were still able to compete in melee while being effective at ranged. Some of the infantry classes even had a few riding thrown in. In cRPG you see more crazy builds, 13 shield, 13 athletics, 10 PS tanks, but less balanced builds with an eye for utility, unfortunately, because the way the mod is set up, utility builds do not pay. It makes more sense to just stack in one direction, go full archer, full 2hand, full throwing, etc. Though at least some of the issue is just player choice. Archers choosing to not invest in any power strike, infantry choosing not to bother with 3-4 power throw.
RIP Crossbowman.
Twas about time to get rid of that easy-mod-always-staying-last-on-hardly-reachable-places stuff + zillions of WhineUKR and CampioSandro clones. Hope it stays dead for good.
I just want to state that in my eyes balance needs to take both into consideration: the average player, who uses his possibilities in by his average level. If the average player of a certain class uses less teamwork than the players of other classes, you have to balance accordingly, or the gameplay on the servers will suffer from it.
But you also have to take into consideration the maximum possible performance of other players. You must not allow some "nerds" to become absolutely dominant and unkillable, and you also have to take care that all classes have about the same skill ceiling and efficiency. Otherwise all good player who want to maximize their performance would change to that one particular class.
You are probably right that most infantry players play less intelligently (?) than they should. But you can't just accept it, shrug and see how only cavalry and archers decide the outcome of a battle and the infantry being downgraded to the "lemming grunts" and "cannonfodder".
That's why I think that the argument "if the class would use more teamplay they wouldn't have that problem" is not valid. And thus there needs to be done something about. In my eyes nerfing/buffing the effectivity of a certain class does not work well, because it also affect the skill ceiling. I rather prefer solutions that change the behaviour of players. For example some kind of command system with rewards, that would make infantry stick together more, allowing them to deal better with archers and cavalry.
And sadly native remains as a winner when it comes to class ballance.Balanced only to someone who wants to play Medieval Counter-Strike. Most Native matches are played with about 80%+ ranged and class limits even have to be imposed in tournaments (like '5vs5') to have other classes represented.
I think the basic problem is that players get simply thrown into this game and not be taken by the hand. A good community can make up for this, but what we have is the cRPG community, so forget about this solution.
I understand the "melee part of the community" and I respect their opinion, but this is not a reason to impose their point of view for everyone else. Do you think that "only melee servers" is an acceptable solution?
blabity bla, bla, bla
Na never had range spam roof camping?
As someone who plays regularly on both servers (including prime time for both), it felt the same, just you had more bows and less crossbows, slightly lower armour, less heavy cav and more light cav, and equal amounts of roof-camping scumbags.
Instantly reminded of this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGW3ydlZvrg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGW3ydlZvrg)
Watch and cringe at every common mistake these guys make.
And yet again a Yank comes down here to argue with Euro trash bringing his typical non-valid comparisons with him.
He's part Turk if I remember right.
Apart from roofcamping, and just before the silly right swing delay patch, wasn't everything just fine? Or did I miss some epic whine about something or other? nerfrpg, sigh
well
since patch we got massive melee battels only disturbed by massive Cav plague
Ranged shouldnt be that useless but also WHY THE FUK
should s1 whos STANDING and SHOOTING have easy kills while any meele gotta putt doubel effort (actually gotta move) for 1 kill or even damage the opponet
through cav and only through cav ranged is so importend in normal battel
and this issue never will be fixed if not through improved teamplay
If u play range u play STF
(click to show/hide)
PS. You totally deserved that -1 for writing that huge wall of text. Not your style, not at all.
One guy, who is done here :wink: says that at least half (70%?) of the people shooting something. He says that only now, after the patch is better.
Nonsense.
I don't know what you're talking about but i was speaking of battle servers before the patch. That percentage has naturally decreased now but they still whine & cry as loud as ever. :wink:
Which is understandable, since "they" had twice as much trouble as you did to get kills even before the patch.
You mean they needed to point and click?
Actually you have to point first, then aim, while the crossair is closing in and then try to calculate the area in which the arrow will fall within a big, unsteady crossair, while taking into consideration the speed of the arrow, the slow release of said arrow, the movement/evasiveness of the target, the fact that even if you magage to hit that target you're not inflicting any significant damage, plus how many arrows you can release before that target is close enought to sword rape you, and the fact that you're only ranged as long as you have arrows + everything else going on around you, so you dont get backstabed/lanced from behind... or make sure you dont hit one of the many allies who persist on getting in front of you while you have to focus on a target if you manage to find a decent one, and every other enemy archer who is looking for light targets like other archers, since their arrows can't kill anything else anyway. On top of that you must have leet melee skill if you hope to survive a close encounter with your average medium armoured 2handed spammer, which has always been the dominant force on the battlefield, because their supposed counter class(ranged) is far from having the hability to put them in their place(behind couver, shields).
Not to mention fog and other details.
Why the hell are you ranged?