The decrease of diversity of units on the battlefield.

[Armpit_Sweat]

No need to argue with that? Ever played a HA? Lets say 4 in 5 aimed headshots while riding on average is to "master" it. But in the current situation.. I have yet to meet somebody to get 4 out of 5 aimed shots (nonheadshots) as hits on average, dont get me started on headshots... yet in melee I have met quite some people that are close mastering it, and at very least 25-40% of the 2h/polearmers in EU can block/feint advanced moves reliably.

Well, HA is a very "niche" class, you can just as well take a mounted javeliner as example, and "master" it by landing consecutive headshots with war darts... As a HA, one can circle around a 2h user and shoot as much as needed, landing 4/5 shots on target would be hardly "balanced" But yes, i agree, it IS hard to hit an erratically moving target with a ranged weapon. Though, in my personal opinion, it is more a question of luck then skill. Two naked men dueling with Long Swords - there is no luck there

[Overdriven]

2h user can dart around all over the place. Makes landing a shot on them luck based. Not really skill based. HA arrows are easy to avoid once you are aware of them. But headshots are near impossible to pull off at any speed.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

worry about 1-4 different attack directions

you trollin right?

yea if people just held to basic attacks 1 click at the time. last time i checked people were doing feints, hold attacks, spinthrust, hiltslash etc

find it far more easier and safer to lead my xbow to one shot a horse!

[Overdriven]

find it far more easier and safer to lead my xbow to one shot a horse!

Good luck doing that now.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

I'v been doing it fine

[Dezilagel]

I strongly disagree with this. 

I do agree melee is very rewarding as far as combat in the game goes.  I love melee.

But... the hardest class to master?  The most challenging?  Eh...define "master".

Maybe a better way to say it is 2h & Poles have the highest learning curve because the mouse attack/block form of combat is pretty unique.  It's not hard to "learn" how to shoot a bow other than adjusting to arc and missile speed.

But once you get the basics down blocking and attacking isn't too bad.  I would dare to say that it actually is much harder to master a ranged weapon in this game, because your aim will always need to be changed to depend on the enemy's position to you, what direction they are going, what your height is in relation to their height, if it's raining, if friendlies are in the way or may become in the way before the arrow arrives, etc.  With melee you need to keep yourself in range and worry about 1-4 different attack directions, but that becomes second nature/muscle reflex.  Ranged still has muscle reflex but the scenarios where you need to adjust your attack location are infinite.

There. I said it.  And I stand by it.

Well, I don't agree with you since imho, melee has an almost infinite skill ceiling.

As a ranged player you shoot stuff. You can get damn good at shooting stuff, but that's still what you do.

In a melee you play against someone. And as people learn new tricks and skills people adapt to that and develop their own which people adapt to and... It never really stops (although it has slowed down quite a lot lately since combat is so slow).

[Maximus101]

Although i hate horse archers, i have to admit the nerf was uncalled for, and the same for throwing nd xbows if its apparently got the nerf. Now, the way to go around this is NOT to nerf everything else. Lancer cav can't be nerfed more imo, as a couch should obviously kill people, and manul lance has been nerfed too i thinkz.

Interesing view from a lancer you think? Well, i can't stand other people droppng their xbow and taking up the lance. Horsies are miine.

[MrShine]

you trollin right?

yea if people just held to basic attacks 1 click at the time. last time i checked people were doing feints, hold attacks, spinthrust, hiltslash etc

find it far more easier and safer to lead my xbow to one shot a horse!

I'm not trolling, you only ever have to worry about blocking 4 different directions (and avoid kicks I suppose, close range '5th').  Of course there are different tricks to it, but it comes down to holding your block in one of 4 possible options to defend an attack.

Also all this talk about "melee always put themselves in danger when they fight"... that's not always true.  Pikes, long spears, bigass swords, are all designed to put you in a position where you can hit the enemy but they can't hit you.  High athletics & footwork is all about getting a swing in and baiting the enemy to swing into thin air.  If players get honest with themselves about playstyle they'll realize melee is always trying to take the safe hits... just like ranged users only on a much smaller less-forgiving scale. 

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, in fact it's the smart thing to do.  But it's hypocritical for a pikeman or danish greatswordsman to talk about how ranged lacks skill because they get to attack melee when melee can't attack them back.

Well, I don't agree with you since imho, melee has an almost infinite skill ceiling.

As a ranged player you shoot stuff. You can get damn good at shooting stuff, but that's still what you do.

In a melee you play against someone. And as people learn new tricks and skills people adapt to that and develop their own which people adapt to and... It never really stops (although it has slowed down quite a lot lately since combat is so slow).

Don't they both?  I feel like the infinite skill ceiling for a melee unit = you always chamber/block anything that comes, and are able to feint/hold/kick to ensure that every swing you have connects with the enemy's head using good speed bonus. 

As an archer wouldn't that same infinite skill ceiling = a headshot with every arrow fired?  Both are impossible to reach, yet both can be continuously pursued.

Also you play against someone as an archer... what else could you be shooting at?  
It's you verse them; you are trying to hit them/anticipate their jukes, while they will do whatever they can to close the gap and dodge arrows.  I see no difference in the PvP aspect of archer & melee outside of the context of the fight.

[Overdriven]

Well, I don't agree with you since imho, melee has an almost infinite skill ceiling.

As a ranged player you shoot stuff. You can get damn good at shooting stuff, but that's still what you do.

In a melee you play against someone. And as people learn new tricks and skills people adapt to that and develop their own which people adapt to and... It never really stops (although it has slowed down quite a lot lately since combat is so slow).

Ranged play against each other. Example:

I just killed Mtemtko 3 times and he killed me once. Ranged fighting against each other is quite a skill. You try a full speed HA fight in open plains and land 4 out of 4 arrows or just head shot me like Mtemtko did.

[Dezilagel]

Ranged play against each other. Example:

I just killed Mtemtko 3 times and he killed me once. Ranged fighting against each other is quite a skill. You try a full speed HA fight in open plains and land 4 out of 4 arrows or just head shot me like Mtemtko did.

Yes, but that is mostly just thanks to your aim. You are not as all dependent on your opponent and what he's doing.

Face it, the melee system has much, much more depth to it. Ranged is like a 2003 shooter. Like playing Worms with a wide crosshair. Or something like that.

[rustyspoon]

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, in fact it's the smart thing to do.  But it's hypocritical for a pikeman or danish greatswordsman to talk about how ranged lacks skill because they get to attack melee when melee can't attack them back.

Don't they both?  I feel like the infinite skill ceiling for a melee unit = you always chamber/block anything that comes, and are able to feint/hold/kick to ensure that every swing you have connects with the enemy's head using good speed bonus. 

As an archer wouldn't that same infinite skill ceiling = a headshot with every arrow fired?  Both are impossible to reach, yet both can be continuously pursued.

Also you play against someone as an archer... what else could you be shooting at?  
It's you verse them; you are trying to hit them/anticipate their jukes, while they will do whatever they can to close the gap and dodge arrows.  I see no difference in the PvP aspect of archer & melee outside of the context of the fight.

Mr. Shine is right, but the 2h lobby will never admit to it. That's always been a big problem in this community how a lot of people feel that 2h is the only REAL way to play this game and is the only challenging way to play it. They always make arguments that only talk about the drawbacks of 2handers and never talk about the benefits.

All play styles take skill. Just because it takes a different skill than the one you use doesn't make it less-skilled.

[Overdriven]

Yes, but that is mostly just thanks to your aim. You are not as all dependent on your opponent and what he's doing.

Face it, the melee system has much, much more depth to it. Ranged is like a 2003 shooter. Like playing Worms with a wide crosshair. Or something like that.

Yes I am. If he shot me, it would stop me firing again with the stun. Against a good HA, once you've been shot, you will struggle because he can keep you stunned. There's the judging of horsemovements, trajectories and a whole host of factors. Manourvreing plays a bigger part than your aim, and that all depends on what the other person is doing. You evidently haven't been in an HA vs HA situation much.

Melee does not have more depth by any standards.

[Mtemtko]

Ranged play against each other. Example:

I just killed Mtemtko 3 times and he killed me once. Ranged fighting against each other is quite a skill. You try a full speed HA fight in open plains and land 4 out of 4 arrows or just head shot me like Mtemtko did.

Screw you man im L25 and I havent been an HA for more than a year (came back last friday and rerolled HA) and you have been playing for atleast half a year, dont compare me with you

[Overdriven]

Screw you man im L25 and I havent been an HA for more than a year  back (came back last friday and rerolled HA) and you have been playing for atleast half a year, dont compare me with you

Actually I haven't played my HA regularly since about August. I've played it about 1h a week or so...if that because I stopped playing crpg entirely for 3 months due to internet issues. Even now I play mostly with my hoplite. Besides, you got a decent headshot on me, mine were all body shots

The point still stands anyway. The GK HA can testify to the difficulties of fighting other HA.

[Kafein]

Throwing was fine.
HA were fine, except for the bump & shoot / shoot & bump locking of melee thing that always was a problem but they generally did not need any nerf.
Xbow were mostly fine, yet a little too easy to use.

Especially for xbows, we should not mix up the effects of ladder removal and the damage nerf. I do think most of the reduction in xbowers is due to the absence of safe spots created by ladders.

The same for the increase in cav. Now that people don't have the opportunity to be 100% immune to that class, we actually see those that have the awareness it takes to be on the ground, and those that don't. The body shot nerf has little to do with that IMO.