cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Gorath on November 07, 2011, 08:03:19 am

Title: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gorath on November 07, 2011, 08:03:19 am
Dear Devs:
Going through the duel server for the last 45 minutes, granted vs a skilled player (even if he is a bundle of sticks :P), and having my 1her (no shield, those are for my old friends) pretty much negated by facehugging hiltslash/derpstab bullshit from light saber two handers has given me recourse to plead this singular case with you as best I can.

FIX TEH RETARTED DERPHANDERS (2H) LIGHTSABER HILTSLASHING AND 1HANDERS UBER GLANCING AT CLOSE RANGE.  PLEASE.  THE ILLOGICAL IDEA OF THE SHORTER WEAPON BEING WORSE AT CLOSE RANGE THAN THE ZOMG ANIME 2H PEW PEW DERP FUCK SWORDS, WHICH GET BETTER PRACTICALLY, MAKES BABY RAPTOR JESUS WEEP TEARS OF ANGUISH.  AND YES I ABUSED THE HOLY BEJEEZUSHIT OUT OF THIS FACT MYSELF EVERY TIME I'VE GONE DERPHANDER FOR A GEN, WHICH WAS ALL OF THIS LAST GEN BEFORE RESPECC'ING THIS MORNING.  I KNOW I'M A HYPOCRITE FOR ABUSING SOMETHING I COMPLAIN ABOUT BUT FUCK MAN, WHY WOULDN'T YOU ABUSE IT IF IT'S THERE?

That is all.  Thank you for your time.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on November 07, 2011, 08:14:30 am
Hiltslashes and spinthrusts don't negate 1h at all. The real advantage of 2h is that they can get in three hits against your one easily, so more chance for mistakes. (Slash->Stunned->Slash again->Backpedal, thrust). The combo's pretty predictable though and thus easier to block.

The real disadvantage of 1h in dueling is kicks. Against a good kicker, you're forced to stay at max distance and can't pull off the hard-to-follow feints at facehug distance. Certainly doesn't make dueling impossible, just slows the pace down by a great deal.. and 2h has the advantage when fighting at max distance, naturally (as it should be).

tl;dr it's fine.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gorath on November 07, 2011, 08:26:40 am
Hiltslashes and spinthrusts don't negate 1h at all.

What I am blatantly rageposting about is that 1her (me) gets facehugged by 2her (him) and LOGICALLY I should have the advantage.  Instead the majority of my swings from the shorter weapon (1her) glance, while the longer weapon (2her) deals full damage to me without glancing.  This left me with 3 options:
Facehug:  He had advantage
Mid range him:  We were even, though his damage is higher per swing (along with weapon stun as you noted)
Long range:  Advatage to him obviously.

I don't know what it is, but even when I'm a 2her my first instinct against a 1her is to facehug the shit out of him to force glances while I hiltslash for full (and even deal damage to him with my backswings when we're circlestrafing at close range).  It just doesn't make sense to me.  I understand it's just how the game works, but allow me the chance to ragepost about the illogical nature of this situation (IE: 1her glances, 2her lightsabers at facehug range).

Again though, yes this is just a rage post as I have come to learn this facet of combat will probably never change.  :P  Just venting really.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 07, 2011, 08:29:52 am
I agree that hiltslashing is a gay thing.. that being said I love to use it :3
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: indigocylinder on November 07, 2011, 08:33:56 am
With 1h at close range use overhead or turn into a backhand. If those bounce you've messed up your footwork.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Digglez on November 07, 2011, 08:35:00 am
fix the models so the first 1/3 of 2h'er/polearms weapon length dont do ANY damage....ya know...like in the real world
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Snoozer on November 07, 2011, 09:13:55 am
i would think that the 1h would be THE LAST THING to glance in close quarters

my beef is lulstabs and spin stabs

so yes it should be fixed i hate glancing its derp i have to footwork nonstop to counter it whenever i go 1h,matter of fact its borderline mandatory for each attaack
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Wookimonsta on November 07, 2011, 10:16:13 am
FIX TEH RETARTED DERPHANDERS (2H) LIGHTSABER HILTSLASHING AND 1HANDERS UBER GLANCING AT CLOSE RANGE.  PLEASE.  THE ILLOGICAL IDEA OF THE SHORTER WEAPON BEING WORSE AT CLOSE RANGE THAN THE ZOMG ANIME 2H PEW PEW DERP FUCK SWORDS, WHICH GET BETTER PRACTICALLY, MAKES BABY RAPTOR JESUS WEEP TEARS OF ANGUISH.  AND YES I ABUSED THE HOLY BEJEEZUSHIT OUT OF THIS FACT MYSELF EVERY TIME I'VE GONE DERPHANDER FOR A GEN, WHICH WAS ALL OF THIS LAST GEN BEFORE RESPECC'ING THIS MORNING.  I KNOW I'M A HYPOCRITE FOR ABUSING SOMETHING I COMPLAIN ABOUT BUT FUCK MAN, WHY WOULDN'T YOU ABUSE IT IF IT'S THERE?

this is funny to me, so i vote no
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on November 07, 2011, 11:37:01 am
Well, if you stay at distance and use your reach many duelists will refuse to duel you calling you names such as noob, s-key hero, coward... cause it's obvious that long greatswords are meant to be used for face hugging and trying to get into enemy's model where he can't block in most cases :rolleyes:

Yeah I agree, 2H is lame because strongest points of that style of fighting are:

- mindless spam or making an invisible barrier instead of learning how to block
- hiltslash or glorified spam technique
- other game mechanics exploits such as mentioned going through the meshes...

Making precise cuts and stabs in the head will grant you whooping 1.2 damage multiplier so why bother... you can become a str spammer which means you can take up to eight normal hits and each one of yours can potentially be lethal for your enemy...

Also forgot to mention famous 180 degree swings which means just keep spamming even if your enemy is behind you're still gonna hit him with full force of your spam...
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Moncho on November 07, 2011, 11:54:56 am
When duelling as a 1her, I have realised actually the best course of action (against not very good players) is just to run into and out of their reach and have high agility. This way you have a chance to hit them, even though it will not damage much and you will just end up being 1hit (2 if youre lucky) after having hit the bundle of sticks 5-6 times (depends on your skill). This is an unviable option, however, against some better 2hers, who will just lolstab you.
But it is the only decent tactic I have been able to develop. That said, I agree with you, fix the hitslashing!
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Okkam on November 07, 2011, 12:15:00 pm
fix the models so the first 1/3 of 2h'er/polearms weapon length dont do ANY damage....ya know...like in the real world

ANY damage - it's little extreme, but something like 5-15 blunt would be honest
But even with this 2H or Pole still can slash your legs
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on November 07, 2011, 12:49:23 pm
I think it's fine. It shouldn't really be really balanced around dueling and on battle a 1hander usually brings a shield that has battle-related advantages.

The only thing I'd do is adding a more direct weapon unrelated counter to kicks. I noticed that punishing kicks as a 2hander is really easy thanks to the reach. So whenever I expected a kick I could often just rotate around the kicker from a rather safe distance and land an overhead from behind. It's not that easy with a 1hander, especially not with a short one. Earlier in Warband an anticipational thrust could punish a kick. But it doesn't really seem to work anymore that well.

I'd probably increase the offensive abilites of kick a bit with allowing a small time window where turning is allowed and in return let a well timed down parry counter the kick. Holding down block won't work, it would only trigger if the down parry is in a correct animation stage when the kick connects. Maybe then a reflected kick stagger or even a knockdown would be nice.

I'd make it harder to reaction-counter a kick than chamberblocking is now though, making it a mostly anticipation based thingy. Dunno what to do with shields though. Guess they are fucked. Maybe shield bash as counter. But cmp too lazy anyway.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on November 07, 2011, 12:53:42 pm
That sounds really nice, Paul...

but cmp lazy
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Dezilagel on November 07, 2011, 04:18:54 pm
I've played both and from what I've experienced 1h are more powerful in close range due to animations/headhits/pure speed.

Sure, a shorter weapon means it's harder to hit/not glance on your opponent, but then this can be offset with proper turning. Random glances are much rarer now, if you glance it's probably your own fault.

I do too facehug noob 1h to force glances, but then any 1h with a little skill will just punish you hard for trying that.

One problem that I see though is armor and 1h. You do deal a crapton of damage with those headhits, but against heavier armor, they kind of become your main source of damage as bodyhits do very little. Although this is a problem for all classes, 1h got it worst. (obv)

Also; what Xant's been saying.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Spawny on November 07, 2011, 05:18:16 pm
This has been my biggest frustration in the 2 weeks I spent on the duel server to polish up my manual blocking.

Wearing a brigandine, with a 21/15 build it was HARD AS FUCK to keep up with for instance GTX with his 21/18 build (iirc). The number of 2h's I had to block up to 3-4 times in a row to get myself in such a position I could actually hit back without being hiltslashed was rediculous.
It was really hard just to get my timing and footwork right, only to prevent getting hit by the second attack right after blocking the first and trying to counter.

I would get killed by sideswings while nearly standing behind my opponent.

The only reason I could sometimes win, was because left-right hits often hit the head and I learned how to facestab and hit heads with the right-left swing too.

Using a shield would actually decrease my chance of winning, as it would make me slower and apparently it's rather common to get hit through your shield (using knightly heater).

Funny fact though, when picking up a 2h without any prof in it, I had a much easier time to block and counter attack. It is just so slow, it's rather easy to chamber.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 07, 2011, 05:26:04 pm
That sounds really nice, Paul...

but cmp lazy

This is signature worthy.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Zisa on November 07, 2011, 05:45:45 pm
Glance is a silly mechanic.

It is OP when glances to my pilgrim disguise cause me to laugh.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Diomedes on November 07, 2011, 06:23:47 pm
Hiltslashing is a pain.  It gives 2handers an enormous effective range while 1h have a considerable chance of bouncing with half (2/4) their attack animations.  :(
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on November 07, 2011, 06:25:22 pm
My suggestion which will improve 1h position in the food chain is still the same, 2x multi for head hits.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Kansuke on November 07, 2011, 06:59:44 pm
Fix the glancing stab thingy and increase the sweespot of 1h weapon and I'll be happy. For now going agi build with a straight sword is really frustrating because of glance and wiff.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Siiem on November 07, 2011, 07:06:50 pm
My suggestion which will improve 1h position in the food chain is still the same, 2x multi for head hits.

trolls trolling, faileshmatroll, trolls but the troll is fail.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gorath on November 07, 2011, 10:14:21 pm
Funny fact though, when picking up a 2h without any prof in it, I had a much easier time to block and counter attack. It is just so slow, it's rather easy to chamber.

I have done the same thing many times.  Often getting frustrated by, skilled granted, 2hers that I just sheath my 1her and pick up a 2her with 1 wpf and have so much of an easier time fighting people.  Maybe I've just played a 2her for so long that it's just more comfortable for me as it never glances so I don't have to worry about much in terms of positioning or distance.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Zisa on November 07, 2011, 10:29:37 pm
I have done the same thing many times.  Often getting frustrated by, skilled granted, 2hers that I just sheath my 1her and pick up a 2her with 1 wpf and have so much of an easier time fighting people.  Maybe I've just played a 2her for so long that it's just more comfortable for me as it never glances so I don't have to worry about much in terms of positioning or distance.
I do not get it though.. pretty sure you use langes and that tends to not glance for me.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gurnisson on November 07, 2011, 11:48:15 pm
Buff 1H stabs? No way! They're so fucking easy to use and give massive damage (easy to put in the head) Also, I find one-handers to be very good at face hugging range unless I fight some filthy kicker, like I am. :(
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: rustyspoon on November 08, 2011, 06:14:34 am
Hilt slashing is the only melee mechanic that really bothers me. I doubt it will ever get fixed though.

I've noticed more and more 2-handers try to facehug me nowadays, so I just use footwork to keep them at the extreme length of my 1-hander. It at least solves the hiltslash problem.

Also 1-handers don't glance that often. Most of the times I've observed it have just been bad positioning. That being said, it's a rare position that's bad for a 2-hander.

All-in-all I find the 3 weapon "classes" to be pretty well balanced. Just a few weapons need to be adjusted here and there, but overall it's pretty good.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Tor! on November 08, 2011, 10:05:34 am
If you remove it what will there be left? What would two hander have, other than more fluent animations? Its not that hard to counter, just watch out for the signs, and block twice. Dont take anything away from 2handers; if you do, it would be more boring to fight against them than fighting a scytched peasant who can manual block like Urist.

About kicks; whoever has the longer weapon always has the advantage, and as more and more people start to use successful kicks, the more it sucks to have the shorter weapon. Sure, you can pull of the stab or walk around, but for now that wont be as successful at the same rate as the other guys kicks.  8-)
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on November 08, 2011, 10:09:48 am
That's why I want to have a direct, weapon (reach) unrelated although mainly anticipational counter. A counter that can be pulled off fully via reaction like blocking or even chamberblocking would be too powerful I think.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thomek on November 08, 2011, 01:07:24 pm
Oh really, the longer weapon have a huge advantage...  :rolleyes:

Suddenly people see it's a problem that a weapon both has huge range AND great damage. I know it makes sense that a long weapon does a shitton of damage because of leverage, weight, momentum etc.. But charging a weapon with energy takes Time, and they should thus be slower than they are.

Tor, the EU hiltslash pioneer/first aboozer, able to wield a long ass axe like it was made of pure bamboo is afraid this might influence his playstyle..

I've said this countless times: (in my neverending efforts to find reasons to buff the katana mind you)

Length + Damage is a combo that becomes stronger very quickly as you increase the values. I do not think this represented well in the current weapons formula, as these weapons could take a bigger downside. (Mainly speed) If you would want speed, you should take a shorter, lighter weapon. This way you won't have uber weapons that are the best on the battlefield AND the best in duels.
(I'm not talking about slowing down the game, if you want speed, grab a longsword or a bastard sword, grab a light outfit)

The Damage+Length part of the forumula should to be a little like this: (Damage*Length)^X
(Yes I agree the game is very well  balanced at the moment, it's just that I still see a relatively low variety of weapons being used. 90% of used 2h weapons fall in the category long and with great damage)

Also agree to urists idea about buffing kicks slightly and working on shield bash..
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Dalhi on November 08, 2011, 01:18:36 pm

Also agree to urists idea about buffing kicks slightly and working on shield bash..

No they are fine, if you played Native over a year ago then you'd know what a fuckin' nightmare kicks were, 75% of duels ends up after kickslash  :rolleyes:, small buff in its hitbox could make them overused and overpowered like they were in Native.
To be honest and didn't play in any module that has shield bash implemented, so I'd like to see how it's working.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Cup1d on November 08, 2011, 01:56:40 pm
trolls trolling, faileshmatroll, trolls but the troll is fail.

Leshma want only 1handers with double damage\headhit ability? In this case it's interesting suggestion. This way oneshot left swing of Steel pick will became «Oneshot» left  swing of all 1H weapons. Great, balance wise suggestion. You win Leshma.

My 2c about hiltslashing. I think it must be possible for weapon with curved, sharp edge, like katana or chinese blades. But not for ridiculous long straight swords like German\Danish family.

Also I wonder, where someone find info about swords with such lenght?
This is source of our German GS http://www.myarmoury.com/bill_swor_alb_munich.html
Good sword with 107cm lenght of blade. Not 123cm like we have in game.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 08, 2011, 02:05:57 pm
My 2c about hiltslashing. I think it must be possible for weapon with curved, sharp edge, like katana or chinese blades. But not for ridiculous long straight swords like German\Danish family.

Yes, lets give more power to the bugged ass ghost model curved blades.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Mala on November 08, 2011, 02:19:41 pm
Buff 1H stabs? No way! They're so fucking easy to use and give massive damage (easy to put in the head) Also, I find one-handers to be very good at face hugging range unless I fight some filthy kicker, like I am. :(

They are slow as hell and wiff at a reasonable range.
Mainly i use short swords, so why i can not simply stab them in the face (well i could, but then i have the same stab exploite like 2h and polearms)?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 08, 2011, 02:24:42 pm
They are slow as hell and wiff at a reasonable range.

Agree, 1h stab should glance less.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Spawny on November 08, 2011, 02:55:17 pm
My 2c about hiltslashing. I think it must be possible for weapon with curved, sharp edge, like katana or chinese blades. But not for ridiculous long straight swords like German\Danish family.

Also I wonder, where someone find info about swords with such lenght?
This is source of our German GS http://www.myarmoury.com/bill_swor_alb_munich.html
Good sword with 107cm lenght of blade. Not 123cm like we have in game.

1. Curved swords are better at cutting, I agree on that, but realism has no place in this discussion. Because then we would have to make mail armour and up completely impervious to slashing attacks from light weapons, with bigger/heavier cutting weapons dealing blunt damage instead of cut damage on the attack.
You can't slice through mail armour with a cut from a sword.

2. Not really, the link you posted gives some information about a german sword. There are quite a lot of different ones, most being shorter than the german great sword in cRPG.
However, it could also just be a form of zweihänder. The shorter ones being the german great sword and the large ones being a flameberge.

Again, realism has no place in a balance discussion or rage thread :)
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: BlackMilk on November 08, 2011, 02:58:54 pm
wth? You complain about w- key action?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 08, 2011, 03:14:05 pm
I have seen onehanders do some crazy hiltslashing aswell, and they are painful! Hiltslashing needs to be fixed.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on November 08, 2011, 03:31:41 pm
I have seen onehanders do some crazy hiltslashing aswell, and they are painful! Hiltslashing needs to be fixed.

what, maces? 1h swords can't hiltslash
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Spawny on November 08, 2011, 04:03:36 pm
what, maces? 1h swords can't hiltslash

Maybe when you hit the head with a left-right swing against someone with very low headarmour?
Dunno... Mine usually glance and when I try to hiltslash, I often get hit by their hiltslash before mine connects.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on November 08, 2011, 04:27:29 pm
Maybe when you hit the head with a left-right swing against someone with very low headarmour?

yes but 1h swords are basically all blade, they have a very very tiny hilt
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Spawny on November 08, 2011, 04:30:50 pm
yes but 1h swords are basically all blade, they have a very very tiny hilt

Yeah, guess I was more referring to hitting with the lower part of the blade.

I haven't been able to pull of a proper hiltslash with a 1h sword yet. They glance. Even against a pilgrim outfit or something similar.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: RandomDude on November 08, 2011, 04:40:34 pm
my instinct used to be to facehug 1h also but on EU most of them turn with you a lot better than they used to so no chance to hit around their side.

vs good 1hs i prefer to keep my distance
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Tor! on November 08, 2011, 06:14:06 pm
Tor, the EU hiltslash pioneer/first aboozer, able to wield a long ass axe like it was made of pure bamboo is afraid this might influence his playstyle..

Your wrong. I'm defending the two handers here, polearms dont even belong in this discussion.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Dezilagel on November 08, 2011, 07:06:48 pm
I just don't get the QQ.

Hiltslash CAN be countered; with proper footwork it's nothing more than something that gives you an opportunity for a free hit.

If you're not comfortable with the techniques for countering it properly, then just blocking twice often throws off the 2h.

Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on November 08, 2011, 07:26:53 pm
Leshma want only 1handers with double damage\headhit ability? In this case it's interesting suggestion. This way oneshot left swing of Steel pick will became «Oneshot» left  swing of all 1H weapons. Great, balance wise suggestion. You win Leshma.

My 2c about hiltslashing. I think it must be possible for weapon with curved, sharp edge, like katana or chinese blades. But not for ridiculous long straight swords like German\Danish family.

Also I wonder, where someone find info about swords with such lenght?
This is source of our German GS http://www.myarmoury.com/bill_swor_alb_munich.html
Good sword with 107cm lenght of blade. Not 123cm like we have in game.

No, I want all melee weapons to deal double damage on head hits. Right now I can survive up to four head hits from a loomed 1h (knightly arming) sword and 7 ps. My head armour rating is 59 and HP is the same value. I just want people to die faster if they encounter someone who actually aim where he strikes instead of spam, hiltslash, stunlock blah blah blah...

And yeah if that ever get's implemented I'm perfectly fine with polestun and can stay because it's generally harder to hit head with poleaxes.

I strongly believe that giving us higher multiplier for head hits will perfectly balance 3 melee classes: 2h, shielders and polearms.

Also will lead to people dying when hit from the back (buff for sneaky and smart people).

Pick on the other hand is a different issue, actually it's pierce damage in general not just pick.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Kafein on November 08, 2011, 07:32:39 pm
Too much agility. Decrease the damage to force more str and/or increase the weight. Maybe that way 2h won't be like soap anymore. I'm fine with the swing speed but the ability to accelerate and change direction that fast is retarded. Humans aren't flies. 2h are humans. 2h aren't flies. Yet they are in the game.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Teeth on November 08, 2011, 07:59:11 pm
I just don't get the QQ.

Hiltslash CAN be countered; with proper footwork it's nothing more than something that gives you an opportunity for a free hit.

If you're not comfortable with the techniques for countering it properly, then just blocking twice often throws off the 2h.
Is this a copypasta from some other thread. I could swear I've read this post earlier.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Jarlek on November 08, 2011, 08:06:29 pm
Dear Devs:
Going through the duel server for the last 45 minutes, granted vs a skilled player (even if he is a bundle of sticks :P), and having my 1her (no shield, those are for my old friends) pretty much negated by facehugging hiltslash/derpstab bullshit from light saber two handers has given me recourse to plead this singular case with you as best I can.

FIX TEH RETARTED DERPHANDERS (2H) LIGHTSABER HILTSLASHING AND 1HANDERS UBER GLANCING AT CLOSE RANGE.  PLEASE.  THE ILLOGICAL IDEA OF THE SHORTER WEAPON BEING WORSE AT CLOSE RANGE THAN THE ZOMG ANIME 2H PEW PEW DERP FUCK SWORDS, WHICH GET BETTER PRACTICALLY, MAKES BABY RAPTOR JESUS WEEP TEARS OF ANGUISH.  AND YES I ABUSED THE HOLY BEJEEZUSHIT OUT OF THIS FACT MYSELF EVERY TIME I'VE GONE DERPHANDER FOR A GEN, WHICH WAS ALL OF THIS LAST GEN BEFORE RESPECC'ING THIS MORNING.  I KNOW I'M A HYPOCRITE FOR ABUSING SOMETHING I COMPLAIN ABOUT BUT FUCK MAN, WHY WOULDN'T YOU ABUSE IT IF IT'S THERE?

That is all.  Thank you for your time.
Thank you for bringing this up. Let's hope they do something with it.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: BlackMilk on November 08, 2011, 08:15:45 pm
Too much agility. Decrease the damage to force more str and/or increase the weight. Maybe that way 2h won't be like soap anymore. I'm fine with the swing speed but the ability to accelerate and change direction that fast is retarded. Humans aren't flies. 2h are humans. 2h aren't flies. Yet they are in the game.
Have you ever seen Greifenherz or Tor playing at all? They hiltslash twice as much and fast as.. GTX for instance does. Polearms actually are great for hiltslashing.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: CaptainQuantum on November 08, 2011, 09:08:49 pm
Poles can hiltslash as easily as 2h's now, I have seen a lot of polearm users utilising this technique now. My problem with hiltslashing is thats it's now overused, and is not as easy to counter if you have someone holding their s-key. In my opinion the problem is a persons ability to hold their s-key and spam to beat a player much better than themselves, that is what causes such a large gap between 2h and 1h. There needs to be a mechanic which punishes people who backpedal at all times, but not backpedalling for range control.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gurnisson on November 08, 2011, 09:13:32 pm
They are slow as hell and wiff at a reasonable range.
Mainly i use short swords, so why i can not simply stab them in the face (well i could, but then i have the same stab exploite like 2h and polearms)?

Heh. I play with one-handers once in a blue moon, and I still have no problem with the stab. It's fast and damaging and easy to guide. Also, I've got no problem with bouncing. I just don't see the problem with 1H stabs. :|
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: CaptainQuantum on November 08, 2011, 09:20:07 pm
I did play 1h + shield recently, it got boring and I respecced to 2h. But even at level 26 I did not have too much of a problem dueling without a shield, of course one thing many 1-handers fail to remember is they have a shield! In duels it may not be worth much but 1h+shield is a team oriented style, it has multiple team roles as opposed to the 2handers who are there for killing only.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vodner on November 08, 2011, 11:22:13 pm
Removing the hiltslash would make combat even more of a dull 'block, attack, block, attack' affair.

Combat should be made faster, harder, and less predictable. This change would make it slower, easier, and even more predictable than it already is.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Digglez on November 08, 2011, 11:25:30 pm
Removing the hiltslash would make combat even more of a dull 'block, attack, block, attack' affair.

Combat should be made faster, harder, and less predictable. This change would make it slower, easier, and even more predictable than it already is.

Its called teamwork, we know your autoblocking self isnt used to the concept.  Cant block well-timed multiple attacks from different vectors.

Its obvious devs play 2h and dont want to fix a rather large and obvious problem with the game.  Just another reason why new players dont want to join.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vodner on November 08, 2011, 11:33:19 pm
Quote
Its called teamwork, we know your autoblocking self isnt used to the concept.  Cant block well-timed multiple attacks from different vectors.
Killing a single opponent shouldn't require two people. Besides that, teamwork between competent players is already an almost guaranteed win against a single opponent.

Any changes to the game should be focused on making player skill more important, not less.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Zisa on November 08, 2011, 11:35:35 pm
Its called teamwork, we know your autoblocking self isnt used to the concept.  Cant block well-timed multiple attacks from different vectors.

Its obvious devs play 2h and dont want to fix a rather large and obvious problem with the game.  Just another reason why new players dont want to join.
You should dismount your armoured 1h horse and show us how 2h is done.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on November 09, 2011, 12:03:35 am
Its called teamwork, we know your autoblocking self isnt used to the concept.  Cant block well-timed multiple attacks from different vectors.

Its obvious devs play 2h and dont want to fix a rather large and obvious problem with the game.  Just another reason why new players dont want to join.

cmpx - str polearm spammer and pikeman
paul - spamitar plus shield
meow - str polearm spammer
fasader - xbow
leiknir - 1h cav

only chadz has been seen using morningstar...
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on November 09, 2011, 12:14:30 am
i've been playing 2h only for some time now apart from strategus.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on November 09, 2011, 12:40:59 am
Do you have a secret nick? Cause last time I saw 22nd_Paul he was using spamitar...
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on November 09, 2011, 12:44:33 am
22
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on November 09, 2011, 12:48:01 am
God I'm so dumb, I have no idea what you just wrote there.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Jarlek on November 09, 2011, 12:50:32 am
God I'm so dumb, I have no idea what you just wrote there.
22
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on November 09, 2011, 12:51:38 am
22

Now I feel smart like you guys :D
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Jarlek on November 09, 2011, 01:08:38 am
22

Now I feel smart like you guys :D
:D
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on November 09, 2011, 01:22:00 am
22 alt chars
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on November 09, 2011, 02:14:05 am
And each one of them pwned me big time :(

Are u that silver swordsman by any chance?

Also did I offend any of your alts? :D
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thomek on November 09, 2011, 02:58:16 am
Each one of them has a name that begins with "P"
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Lezard on November 09, 2011, 03:13:11 am
Each one of them has a name that begins with "P"

Lies.

Also,
tl;dr it's fine.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on November 09, 2011, 05:05:42 am
Each one of them has a name that begins with "P"

no, but each one of them is easy to spot due to paul being a my old friend
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gorath on November 09, 2011, 07:15:43 am
Xant:  I do get the whole tl:dr "it's fine" response for the most part... except I would like someone to explain to me their logic for 2hers being less glancing and deadlier at facehug range than the shorter 1hers are?

THAT'S the whole thing I just can't wrap my head around which makes this topic remain in the front of my bitch-list.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: PieParadox on November 09, 2011, 07:46:12 am
Hmmm... what advantages does a shielder have against a good 2her?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 09, 2011, 07:48:03 am
16 ping
blocks till you get bored
=
Paul

Hmmm... what advantages does a shielder have against a good 2her?

Left to right swing almost a guaranteed headshot. Faster weapon speed. Autoblock.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: PieParadox on November 09, 2011, 07:57:25 am
Well, I mean in a 1v1 duel. I feel like shields only lasts for so long, and it slows you down... (I hate putting my shield like huscarl on my back to duel, it obscures my vision... anyone else have that problem?) The faster weapon speed is balanced by the lower damage and the 2h's ability to hiltslash... I do like the left to right swing, though a good 2h should already aim for the head instinctively... To me, it just seems 1h does not have an outright advantage, though, I guess that's how it should be? 2h being dominant melee?

Dunno, as 2h, I always thought shielders were the easiest melee class to fight. Haven't been 2h for a while though.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 09, 2011, 08:06:28 am
Well, I mean in a 1v1 duel. I feel like shields only lasts for so long, and it slows you down... (I hate putting my shield like huscarl on my back to duel, it obscures my vision... anyone else have that problem?) The faster weapon speed is balanced by the lower damage and the 2h's ability to hiltslash... I do like the left to right swing, though a good 2h should already aim for the head instinctively... To me, it just seems 1h does not have an outright advantage, though, I guess that's how it should be? 2h being dominant melee?

Dunno, as 2h, I always thought shielders were the easiest melee class to fight. Haven't been 2h for a while though.

In duels I believe 2h dominates. But this game isn't balanced on duel game mode.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on November 09, 2011, 08:56:05 am
The greate than 180 degree active arc is a fucking JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fix it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So far the funniest moments have been:

1) being killed by a over head from my own team mate... while I was standing behind him.
2) Killing my own team mate with an over head while he was standing behind me.
3) Being killed by an over head while I was sneaking up on some one to kick them in the back. They also then killed the guy they were trying to over head... Pretty much 2 kills one shot.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 09, 2011, 08:57:52 am
3) Being killed by an over head while I was sneaking up on some one to kick them in the back. They also then killed the guy they were trying to over head... Pretty much 2 kills one shot.

Not possible. Attack always ends when it connects to first enemy/friendly.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on November 09, 2011, 09:25:48 am
I know that. He killed me and then fired it up again and hit the noob he was aiming for.

I did say, "pretty much", not "he one shoted 10 people and a horse. It was like Rambo OMG OMG"

:{p
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: San on November 11, 2011, 08:45:45 am
I said it before and I'll say it again: Fix the 1h swing animation collision detection. It's easier to out-footwork 1h swings than 2h/pole anyways.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: MouthnHoof on November 11, 2011, 11:49:03 am
It is not the collision detection. The mechanics are the same for all weapons. The difference is in the animation and the absolute length of the weapon.

Regarding the animation: the game considers the weapon and a straight line coming out of the right fist with length equal to the "reach" stat. Depending on the animation, you can have your fist inside the target before the rest of the blade hits. This is bound to happen if in the animation the wrist rotates, so effectively in the early stages the hilt is traveling before the tip, which catches up later. The system will register a "0" distance hit (from your fist).

With 2H animations, the orientation of the blade during the swing is such that it rotates less than the 1H blade. The 1H animation chamber position really pulls it behind you back. Compare for example  the right swing -  in 1H you start with the blade tip pointing nearly backward and the hilt travels in front of the blade. Not so much with 2H. Also the overhead - in 1H you start with the blade so far behind your shoulder that a short range hit is like hammering the opponent with your fist which the blade is in the opposite direction.

Regarding the absolute length: the game modifies the damage depending on the relative values of the "reach" parameter and the distance of the hit detection from the fist. With short weapons, every cm makes a much bigger difference. Since there is also some discretization in the hit detection it is very likely that with short weapons it will produce extreme readings, meaning many hits will register as 0 range hits (hand inside the opponent mesh), but fluctuations to the other side do not truncate to full range hits, they just become misses. short weapons become increasingly sensitive to this and daggers in particular are terrible because of this.

TL;DR
Not much can be done, unless the modders can mess with how damage is modified according to the hit detection distance. If they can, the variation in damage as a function of the relative distance along the blade (0--100%) should scale less as the weapon is shorter (i.e. smaller difference in damage between 0 and 100% of the reach). Dagger length weapons should not be affected by this mechanism at all.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 11, 2011, 11:59:24 am
Not much can be done, unless the modders can mess with how damage is modified according to the hit detection distance. If they can, the variation in damage as a function of the relative distance along the blade (0--100%) should scale less as the weapon is shorter (i.e. smaller difference in damage between 0 and 100% of the reach). Dagger length weapons should not be affected by this mechanism at all.

Don't worry, just PM cmp and he will get it done in a day or two.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on November 11, 2011, 01:03:19 pm
Well, by default the 1h, 2h and pole share the same sweetspot bounds.

(click to show/hide)

Could be split so 1h gets a less bitchy stab but that would need some work to get it done correctly. But cmp lazy and me too.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 11, 2011, 01:16:42 pm
This is me not knowning the whole code but

couldn't you just make a duplicate function with different sweetspot values and use it only for 1h? Or is it a bit more complicated than that?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on November 11, 2011, 01:22:54 pm
What language is that? Python?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 11, 2011, 01:25:33 pm
What language is that? Python?

Yes, that is Python.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on November 11, 2011, 01:49:39 pm
It's easy to do coding wise. It's just difficult to balance it correctly and once 1h gets softer bounds, 2h and polearm will cry rivers.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 11, 2011, 01:51:19 pm
It's easy to do coding wise. It's just difficult to balance it correctly and once 1h gets softer bounds, 2h and polearm will cry rivers.

I'm a 2h and I won't cry rivers. 1h deservers a better stab.

I promise
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on November 11, 2011, 02:14:08 pm
It's easy to do coding wise. It's just difficult to balance it correctly and once 1h gets softer bounds, 2h and polearm will cry rivers.

Have tears stopped you before?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: MouthnHoof on November 11, 2011, 03:52:06 pm
Well, by default the 1h, 2h and pole share the same sweetspot bounds.

(click to show/hide)

Could be split so 1h gets a less bitchy stab but that would need some work to get it done correctly. But cmp lazy and me too.
Isn't this determining the factor due to the stage of the animation during which the hit was detected (using anim_progress)? I was talking about the modification due to the distance to the hit relative to the length of the weapon (hilt vs. tip).
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on November 11, 2011, 05:32:25 pm
Well, that is basicly how the illusion of length dependency is done. A facehug stab hits early, thus at the beginning of the animation and receives the penalty for being at the lower bound. There is no special length check.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Zisa on November 11, 2011, 06:27:41 pm
fuck that shit...
Fix the waggly stab nonsense if you are going to play with the stabs. please.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: ThePoopy on November 11, 2011, 07:29:18 pm
1h have allready been buffed enough just cus majority of 1handers sux, theres nothing wrong with the stab, if u actually hit the target...
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on November 11, 2011, 07:45:20 pm
When has 1h been buffed? I only remember a major nerf, the shield forcefield one.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on November 11, 2011, 08:48:17 pm
Not directly but long weapons nerf (early active attacks) is buff to short weapons aka one handed weapons.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Kansuke on November 11, 2011, 09:13:29 pm
1h have allready been buffed enough just cus majority of 1handers sux, theres nothing wrong with the stab, if u actually hit the target...

There is no reason why stabbing with a pole or a 2h should be easier than with a 1h sword, so buff 1h stab or nerf 2h and pole stab.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Jarlek on November 11, 2011, 09:54:22 pm
There is no reason why stabbing with a pole or a 2h should be easier than with a 1h sword, so buff 1h stab or nerf 2h and pole stab.
I'd like to come with a counter-argument to this: Spears. That's it. But all the other 2h and poles, yeah. You got my support.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: BlackMilk on November 11, 2011, 10:03:52 pm
1h stab is fine. Dont know what you guys are doing wrong but the only time I fail at making a successfull stab is when I screw up pretty much everything.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: WaltF4 on November 11, 2011, 10:56:30 pm
Well, by default the 1h, 2h and pole share the same sweetspot bounds.

Could be split so 1h gets a less bitchy stab but that would need some work to get it done correctly. But cmp lazy and me too.

If they share the same sweetspot bounds, how is the one-handed thrust more or less bitchy than the other thrusts? Is it that correctly delaying the stab by spinning is more difficult when the leading end of the weapon collider starts farther from the attacker than many other animations and/or when the animation typically progresses more quickly due to higher weapon speeds?

Also, there was some serious rage about getting stabbed by two-handed thrusts at close range, and there is currently some serious rage about getting stabbed by pike thrusts at close range. Are people actually asking for more effective stabs by even faster weapon thrusts at close range? How is everyone's pattern recognition?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on November 11, 2011, 11:38:16 pm
Well, a polearm thrust is actually "hiding" behind the body of the attacking agent before it reaches the "good" animation stage and so it prevents premature contact :). The 1h animation on the other hand usually makes contact too early if executed conventionally. The animation itself doesn't really fit with the bounds. "Turning the stab in" just means timing the contact so it happens during the "good" animation stage.

I do think 1h stab bounds should be seperated from polearm and 2h. The question is if cmp can be arsed.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 11, 2011, 11:52:32 pm
The question is if cmp can be arsed.

Awww, itsy witsy bitsy Paul thinks it is a question!  :lol: :lol: :lol:

He is so innocent and precious, can we keep him?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: WaltF4 on November 12, 2011, 12:32:49 am
Well, a polearm thrust is actually "hiding" behind the body of the attacking agent before it reaches the "good" animation stage and so it prevents premature contact :). The 1h animation on the other hand usually makes contact too early if executed conventionally. The animation itself doesn't really fit with the bounds. "Turning the stab in" just means timing the contact so it happens during the "good" animation stage.

I do think 1h stab bounds should be seperated from polearm and 2h. The question is if cmp can be arsed.

I do not think the distinction should be made by where the collider starts. The leading edge of the collider for many two-handed weapon thrusts, most (maybe all) one-handed polearm thrusts, and the longer two-handed polearm thrusts all start farther in front of the attacking agent than even the longest one-handed weapon thrusts do.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: kongxinga on November 12, 2011, 01:23:36 am
What I am blatantly rageposting about is that 1her (me) gets facehugged by 2her (him) and LOGICALLY I should have the advantage.  Instead the majority of my swings from the shorter weapon (1her) glance, while the longer weapon (2her) deals full damage to me without glancing.  This left me with 3 options:
Facehug:  He had advantage
Mid range him:  We were even, though his damage is higher per swing (along with weapon stun as you noted)
Long range:  Advatage to him obviously.

I don't know what it is, but even when I'm a 2her my first instinct against a 1her is to facehug the shit out of him to force glances while I hiltslash for full (and even deal damage to him with my backswings when we're circlestrafing at close range).  It just doesn't make sense to me.  I understand it's just how the game works, but allow me the chance to ragepost about the illogical nature of this situation (IE: 1her glances, 2her lightsabers at facehug range).

Again though, yes this is just a rage post as I have come to learn this facet of combat will probably never change.  :P  Just venting really.

Probably a symptom of plate armour being way too cheap. One never saw that much plate in native, but apparently for many in CRPG too many horses = not ok, while plate everywhere= all fine and dandy. In native where repurchases were frequent and plate to horse prices were logical (plate being more expensive than most horses) one never saw that much glancing. With plate everywhere the raw damage stats on 2 handers matter a lot more than the range malus to damage.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thucydides on November 12, 2011, 10:54:37 am
Probably a symptom of plate armour being way too cheap. One never saw that much plate in native, but apparently for many in CRPG too many horses = not ok, while plate everywhere= all fine and dandy. In native where repurchases were frequent and plate to horse prices were logical (plate being more expensive than most horses) one never saw that much glancing. With plate everywhere the raw damage stats on 2 handers matter a lot more than the range malus to damage.

whats more expensive; Plate armor or a warhorse??
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: kongxinga on November 12, 2011, 08:43:45 pm
Plate being more expensive than most horses, such as the ones people use (coursers, sarranids, stable, desert, steppe). In fact, some large weapons like the greatsword were more expensive by themselves than most horses.  In crpg couple dozen k of gold gets you one nerfed lame animal while the same amount could outfit yourself in very effective armour. This armour previously let people pretty much ignore arrows till the bodkins fixed that.
 
The other solution will be balance closer to WFAS where one handers were very fast and 2 handers were slow but damaging.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Cup1d on November 13, 2011, 12:27:01 am
Quote
In fact, some large weapons like the greatsword were more expensive by themselves than most horses.

http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thucydides on November 13, 2011, 12:30:36 am
no one would ride a pack horse to war, that would be stupid. They would flee once the fighting starts, because they were not trained to deal with such intense amounts of violence. Warhorses needed to be trained, by professionals, regardless of the breed or quality.

furthermore, CRPG is CRPG, cheap horses were necessary in native because they needed an immediate way to counter archery. In CRPG, you need to deal with it based on your build and your team's capabilities. Expensive horses prevent the retarded elephant mashing of Pre-january patch. Were you here for Gaga?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Camaris on November 13, 2011, 05:08:28 pm
The other solution will be balance closer to WFAS where one handers were very fast and 2 handers were slow but damaging.

Aren´t most 1hs fast and all long 2hs slow but damaging?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gurnisson on November 13, 2011, 05:08:54 pm
I wouldn't call the greatswords slow :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Camaris on November 13, 2011, 05:10:59 pm
If you make them even slower noone will use them anymore.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gurnisson on November 13, 2011, 05:16:05 pm
If you make them even slower noone will use them anymore.

I don't say they should, but if it happened people would've adapted. Those swords are only relatively slow on heavy armoured strength builds anyway. That said, they're fine as it is. If it had become like WFaS, players like kinngrim wouldn't have needed their shield vs. 2H, since they could've just spammed the left swing all the time.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: kongxinga on November 13, 2011, 07:19:20 pm
http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm

Thank you for the link. I love these historical item pricings. I was however talking about Native M+B prices.

However that price list unfortunately shows exactly the mindset that runs in crpg. IE the western european catholic state of affairs, or worse, the "london" state of affairs.

We all know horses were horrendously expensive in england, being an island and all that, but move somewhere else in europe where you have horses coming out of the wazoo, and there you would find them to be relatively inexpensive while swords or armour would need a king's ransom. These are the places where an all mounted army was the norm. CRPG seems to conform to this stereotypical medieval image based in london.

I wish this "london" crpg one size fit all prices could change, say by having a location variable for chars. Those who enjoy the oversized 2 hand and plate nonsense can choose the german states, while people wishing to play sensibly could choose the regions of modern turkey for reasonable horse prices. These locations could also affect item availability.

Was here for gaga, did not find her too bad. Anti cav cav could take her out fast. I did not play as a crunchy, so perhaps I had it easier.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Zisa on November 13, 2011, 07:20:23 pm
Let's be honest here...
If this is really a problem, you should try a different class.

I get glanced in my pilgrim disguise more by 2handers and poles then 1 handers, and there are far too many decent 1handers (even with shield) for me to take any suggestion to buff them seriously.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thucydides on November 13, 2011, 09:37:52 pm

We all know horses were horrendously expensive in england, being an island and all that, but move somewhere else in europe where you have horses coming out of the wazoo, and there you would find them to be relatively inexpensive while swords or armour would need a king's ransom. These are the places where an all mounted army was the norm. CRPG seems to conform to this stereotypical medieval image based in london.

I wish this "london" crpg one size fit all prices could change, say by having a location variable for chars. Those who enjoy the oversized 2 hand and plate nonsense can choose the german states, while people wishing to play sensibly could choose the regions of modern turkey for reasonable horse prices. These locations could also affect item availability.

no european nation has ever had an "all cavalry" army. Even during the 100 year war you see the french using "men at arms" that ride into battle on horses but dismount to fight. European nations that have a large cavalry contingent tended to be in large aristocratic nations that have a large peasant class to support the upper class. This allows the nobility to hire more retainers and household guards, who tend to also be mounted to keep up with the lord. England, with it's citizen militia and yeoman longbowmen, did not have the same degree of feudalism, and thus cannot support a large cavalry army as other nations. However, at crecy the english managed to field 4000 knights and men at arms, out of a total of 21000 troops, which is more than enough for it's role as exploiters of broken lines.
Fact is, the majority of a medieval army consisted of coursers and rouncies, which is the standard for crpg. A rouncy costs less than all the "heavy" armor, while a courser costs as much as a transistional. A plated charger cost twice as much as a milanese plate, which makes sense considering its a horse armored in plate.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: kongxinga on November 13, 2011, 09:49:10 pm
No european army had an all cavalry army if and only if your europe ended at the Rhine. And even on the side of the Rhine you are talking about, we had chevauchees, which were pretty much 100% mounted detachments, although not everyone fought on horseback.

But what I am trying to get across is that there is nothing wrong with a 100% mounted army. It does not look wrong, contrary to the declarations of some. The amount of plate in crpg should however raise eyebrows.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thucydides on November 13, 2011, 09:54:09 pm
No european army had an all cavalry army if and only if your europe ended at the Rhine. And even on the side of the Rhine you are talking about, we had chevauchees, which were pretty much 100% mounted detachments, although not everyone fought on horseback.

But what I am trying to get across is that there is nothing wrong with a 100% mounted army. It does not look wrong, contrary to the declarations of some. The amount of plate in crpg should however raise eyebrows.

Turkey is not part of europe, no matter how much you cry about it. Even the arab states, the majority of their armed forces were infantry by the crusades. The turks was an "all cavalry" force but they used ponies and light horses, not plated chargers and destiers. No all cav army used any horses heavier than a courser, so i don't see your point here. Those horses are cheaper than plate mail, and especially the courser is extremely good in the hands of a skilled huey..
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: kongxinga on November 13, 2011, 10:07:21 pm
Yes but should not steppes and arabians be a lot cheaper given the all cav armies in Turkey? Was going to take our interesting discussion to the PMs, but then I get a "Turkey is not Europe" jaw dropper. How about the formerly non Christendom Eastern European parts?

Do you get angry when faction rotation in native breaks up non stop swads versus nords to include Khergits and Sarranids?
 
 
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thucydides on November 13, 2011, 10:17:03 pm
Yes but should not steppes and arabians be a lot cheaper given the all cav armies in Turkey? Was going to take our interesting discussion to the PMs, but then I get a "Turkey is not Europe" jaw dropper. How about the formerly non Christendom Eastern European parts?

Do you get angry when faction rotation in native breaks up non stop swads versus nords to include Khergits and Sarranids?

not arabians, steppe horses maybe. But steppe horse are already pretty cheap, equal to upper teir medium armor. Outfitted as a typical mongol, you shouldnt even come close to breaking the bank. before i retired i would use first a desert horse then a steppe horse after riding nerf with 66k worth of equip on top of the horse, i did not break the bank at all, i lost maybe 10-15k but i earned it all back after my retirement.

turkey is not europe because europe cuts off at the hellespont/dardanelles. Asia minor has always been considered a near eastern territory. The russians and eastern europe extends as far as the uraj mountains, which beyond that point we have steppe people who are pastoralist and not agriculturalists like their european counterparts.

btw this isn't to put down the turks or anyone, you guys just aren't european. Its ok to acknowledge your role as foreign subjegators of anatolia, no one will think less of you.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 13, 2011, 10:23:56 pm
There... are... several.. sub-cultures... of Turkey... Like Seljuks... Or Ottomans... who reside in... different parts... must resist... urge... failing...
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thucydides on November 13, 2011, 10:27:19 pm
There... are... several.. sub-cultures... of Turkey... Like Seljuks... Or Ottomans... who reside in... different parts... must resist... urge... failing...

hur dur?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 13, 2011, 10:57:18 pm
hur dur?

Some parts of Turkey including whole sub-cultures are in Europe... You can't just say "Does not count as European."
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Camaris on November 13, 2011, 11:40:57 pm
It does not count!!!
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thucydides on November 14, 2011, 07:46:00 am
Some parts of Turkey including whole sub-cultures are in Europe... You can't just say "Does not count as European."

i suppose so, but  the majority of the population of turks live in asia minor. For example, It would be fair to refer to russia as european up to the uraj mountains, but any farther they would be considered asian. Likewise, you can refer to a "european turkey" but is turkey european? not really. To be european a majority of your population must reside in the european subconinent.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on November 14, 2011, 08:06:05 am
I was away from this thread 2 days just to find out it is now about Turkey? lol
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Thomek on November 14, 2011, 02:32:45 pm
Aha! So turks are asians and must therefore have small penises.

Like one would presume ninjas have. Luckily the size of the penis is inversely proportional to the sword being carried hence:

Ninjas have average penises
Europeans with big swords have average penises
Turks with big swords have sub-dimensional penises.

Capish?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Lech on November 14, 2011, 03:45:41 pm
Some parts of Turkey including whole sub-cultures are in Europe... You can't just say "Does not count as European."

So what ? Did they inhabited Europe in year 1257 ? Until 1453 they didn't even controlled Rome of East.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: zagibu on December 04, 2011, 08:55:13 pm
Something needs to be done to remove the hiltslashing, it's currently the dumbest thing in cRPG.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: BlackMilk on December 04, 2011, 09:00:38 pm
ehm..NO
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Jarlek on December 04, 2011, 09:25:24 pm
ehm..NO
ehm...YES
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on December 04, 2011, 10:05:37 pm
Something needs to be done to remove the hiltslashing, it's currently the dumbest thing in cRPG.

It's really very simple. If you know how to turn into your swings properly and your footwork is good, it's pretty much impossible to hiltslash you. If not? Just block twice in a row, solved.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: zagibu on December 04, 2011, 11:52:06 pm
It's really very simple. If you know how to turn into your swings properly and your footwork is good, it's pretty much impossible to hiltslash you. If not? Just block twice in a row, solved.

You are right, what you said was indeed very simple to understand, but it was also wrong. I understand that you don't want your special attack to be taken away, but don't you feel kind of dirty abusing an obviously broken game mechanic? It's almost worse than using a crossbow.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on December 05, 2011, 07:56:25 am
You are right, what you said was indeed very simple to understand, but it was also wrong. I understand that you don't want your special attack to be taken away, but don't you feel kind of dirty abusing an obviously broken game mechanic? It's almost worse than using a crossbow.

Work on your footwork and reflexes more and you won't get hiltslashed.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 05, 2011, 01:15:12 pm
Ofcourse it is easy to avoid hiltslashing but sooner or later you will still get hit by one and it is bullshit. It is a broken gamemechanic and needs to be fixed. I like to be able to stop enemy swings by moving into them before they have started swinging, but it is impossible now with hiltslashing being all messed up.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: zagibu on December 06, 2011, 09:05:24 pm
OMG, get better, noob.

Yes, of course, this is the proper answer, balance broken game mechanics with player skill. I am glad we have such wisdom in our ranks.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: MrShine on December 06, 2011, 09:12:51 pm
TL;DR for those who CBA to read this thread: turks have small penises.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on December 06, 2011, 09:39:21 pm
Yes, of course, this is the proper answer, balance broken game mechanics with player skill. I am glad we have such wisdom in our ranks.

Broken how?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: zagibu on December 07, 2011, 02:46:57 am
Broken how?

Oh god, forget I mentioned it. I have a headache from trying to figure out your reasoning. It's either too elaborate for me to understand, or it's simply a shameless stunt of a hiltslasher, trying to protect his best source of kills.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vodner on December 07, 2011, 03:36:37 am
Oh god, forget I mentioned it. I have a headache from trying to figure out your reasoning. It's either too elaborate for me to understand, or it's simply a shameless stunt of a hiltslasher, trying to protect his best source of kills.
Unless I'm mistaken, Xant is a 1h.

There is nothing broken about castor swings. They are not difficult to counter (even with 1 wpf) if you are paying attention. They serve to break up the dull 'block, attack, block, attack' rhythm of fights.

When I play 1h, I'm far more afraid of opponents who can consistently land kicks than I am of opponents who can castor.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2011, 03:40:09 am
Oh god, forget I mentioned it. I have a headache from trying to figure out your reasoning. It's either too elaborate for me to understand, or it's simply a shameless stunt of a hiltslasher, trying to protect his best source of kills.

Yes, hiltslash accounts for 90% of my 1h kills. I think you are suffering from a severe case of "l2p". Anyone dares to question you, it's them clearly wanting to protect their cheaty way of getting kills!!1

It's exactly as SaulCanner says. Kicks are FAR more dangerous than those mythical hiltslashes. Main reason why I use Arabian Cav Sword, too.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Mala on December 07, 2011, 03:57:47 am
Unless I'm mistaken, Xant is a 1h.

There is nothing broken about castor swings. They are not difficult to counter (even with 1 wpf) if you are paying attention. They serve to break up the dull 'block, attack, block, attack' rhythm of fights.

When I play 1h, I'm far more afraid of opponents who can consistently land kicks than I am of opponents who can castor.

Because no one tells it, how do i counter this and for what i have to looking for?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vodner on December 07, 2011, 04:07:34 am
Because no one tells it, how do i counter this and for what i have to looking for?
It usually goes like this:

1) Enemy facehugs you.
2) Enemy starts a sideswing, and strafes in the same direction as the swing.
3) After getting blocked, the enemy immediately starts a swing in the opposite direction, and switches strafe directions.

You can tell somebody is probably going to castor from steps 1 and 2.

As a 1h, you can counter it by strafing in the same direction of the second swing (away from the weapon), and either left swinging or overheading. If you left swing, start the swing as close as you can to his head without risking a glance.

Alternatively, if you're good at kicking (I am not), you can kick him.

As a side note, this actually creates a pretty interesting mind game. The counter to the castor is pretty easy to chamber (being an immediate swing), so the castor footwork can be imitated to trick your opponent into an easy chamber. Cyranule is the only person I've ever really seen do this.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2011, 04:17:33 am
As a side note, this actually creates a pretty interesting mind game. The counter to the castor is pretty easy to chamber (being an immediate swing), so the castor footwork can be imitated to trick your opponent into an easy chamber. Cyranule is the only person I've ever really seen do this.

The interesting part about the chamber in that position is that sometimes it's so fast it's practically unblockable - it's a hiltslash too, if you move correctly, and hits almost instantly.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: awesomeasaurus on December 07, 2011, 04:21:25 am
I agree with the first post. by Gorath. on November 7th.

How the fuck do the 2hers facehug me and hit me but I glance at close range?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2011, 08:13:58 am
I believe I've done chamber hiltslashes before, pretty much unblockable :D
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Paul on December 07, 2011, 08:28:24 am
STR_Decky_Smile (or maybe I confuse him with some other STRange meat) tries to chamber follow-ups (hiltslash in child speak). He's usually pretty fucked when holding the second swing for a few milliseconds.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 07, 2011, 08:46:02 am
Sry that iam such a noob, but wth is hiltslashing?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2011, 08:49:41 am
Sry that iam such a noob, but wth is hiltslashing?

3 posts up

It usually goes like this:

1) Enemy facehugs you.
2) Enemy starts a sideswing, and strafes in the same direction as the swing.
3) After getting blocked, the enemy immediately starts a swing in the opposite direction, and switches strafe directions.

You can tell somebody is probably going to castor from steps 1 and 2.

As a 1h, you can counter it by strafing in the same direction of the second swing (away from the weapon), and either left swinging or overheading. If you left swing, start the swing as close as you can to his head without risking a glance.

Alternatively, if you're good at kicking (I am not), you can kick him.

As a side note, this actually creates a pretty interesting mind game. The counter to the castor is pretty easy to chamber (being an immediate swing), so the castor footwork can be imitated to trick your opponent into an easy chamber. Cyranule is the only person I've ever really seen do this.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 07, 2011, 08:52:40 am
ähh So Hiltslashing is what you described in 1-3?or the thing after that?

Iam confused.Either this was never used against me or I didnt notice it at all.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2011, 08:57:17 am
ähh So Hiltslashing is what you described in 1-3?or the thing after that?

Iam confused.Either this was never used against me or I didnt notice it at all.

Hiltslashing is what is described in 1-3. The point of hiltslash is that it gives you a second attack (which hits early in the animation). For this to work you practically have to have your hands/hilt inside your oponents body - thus "hiltslashing" or americanized "castor swing".
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 07, 2011, 09:26:08 am
ähh
:D

I just try keep to distance/use good footwork, works for me with high ath.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 07, 2011, 09:27:31 am
Okay lol I never encountered that yet.Might be my 7 Athletics with light armor keeping me away from beeing facehugged.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2011, 02:11:36 pm
STR_Decky_Smile (or maybe I confuse him with some other STRange meat) tries to chamber follow-ups (hiltslash in child speak). He's usually pretty fucked when holding the second swing for a few milliseconds.

Right. It's risky because you don't really have room for error. Perfectly balanced and fine.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Phyrex on December 07, 2011, 02:36:38 pm
STR_Decky_Smile (or maybe I confuse him with some other STRange meat) tries to chamber follow-ups (hiltslash in child speak). He's usually pretty fucked when holding the second swing for a few milliseconds.

Sorry lol. When Szymzack(WV/the_Grey) started using it on Ndition duel server we needed a name. Since he was facehugging and strafing while doing those it looked like he was attacking with the hilt of his Greatsword, hence I coined it "hiltslash". :P
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2011, 03:07:57 pm
Sorry lol. When Szymzack(WV/the_Grey) started using it on Ndition duel server we needed a name. Since he was facehugging and strafing while doing those it looked like he was attacking with the hilt of his Greatsword, hence I coined it "hiltslash". :P

Oh so it's a term you made up?
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on December 07, 2011, 03:17:35 pm
I believe I've done chamber hiltslashes before, pretty much unblockable :D

Jormglorm does that a lot.
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Leshma on December 07, 2011, 03:19:48 pm
:D

I just try keep to distance/use good footwork, works for me with high ath.

Me too, but do you know what happens then? Hiltslashers qq and call you s-key hero...
Title: Re: Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power
Post by: Mala on December 07, 2011, 03:51:27 pm
...
As a 1h, you can counter it by strafing in the same direction of the second swing (away from the weapon), and either left swinging or overheading. If you left swing, start the swing as close as you can to his head without risking a glance.

...

Depends a bit on the attack option. I use inverted mouse controlls, what makes this quite risky.

I can counter this, but if they try something different, then my swing does not connect and i am fucked.