No, just no. Strict specialization should be choice, not no-brainer.
Hybrids should be strong choices.
Problem lies in fact, that 2h and Polearms and Crossbows don't require many skills.
Hybrids are fine, nerf ranged, perhaps even reduce softcap to lvl 25 to make going hybrid less common (skills scale in this way that the difference between PS 4 and 5 are higher than from lvl 5 to lvl 6, due to the nature of the damage in this game).
No, just no. Strict specialization should be choice, not no-brainer.
Hybrids should be strong choices.
Problem lies in fact, that 2h and Polearms and Crossbows don't require many skills.
Hybrids are fine, nerf ranged, perhaps even reduce softcap to lvl 25 to make going hybrid less common (skills scale in this way that the difference between PS 4 and 5 are higher than from lvl 5 to lvl 6, due to the nature of the damage in this game).
Also, hybrid classes have fewer counters, whereas specialized classes each have a counter archers->shielder, shielder->cavalry, cavalry->throwers, etc. This makes the game far more balanced overall and forces more strategy and teamwork instead of having one-man wrecking crews throwing javelins and then meleeing with an elegant poleaxe with good wpf in each.
TLDR: If you change WPF we hybrid players will simply go back to making builds that require no WPF to hybrid (Archer + 2h/pole, 2h/pole + xbow, 1h/shield + xbow, Thrower with all WPF in melee weapon and simply rely on PT level for accuracy).
Or you could put more points in agility->weapon master so you actually have to sacrifice something to be a hybrid.
I like Hybrids. games that have set classes are lame.
Hybrids do sacrifice, the mechanics say you SHOULD win. If you're not beating that hybrid in melee with your melee specialized character you are failing your build, not the other way around.
The problem is currently the benefits of a hybrid build far outweight the cons. This won't remove hybrids, it would balance them, you will need more agility/weapon master skill to be a hybrid, like it should be.
The problem are throwing hybrids, not melee. You can now have a 24/12 2H/thrower that is incredibly efficient in both. But this is part of the fact that throwing can we efficient with low or no WPF.
Also, hybrid classes have fewer counters, whereas specialized classes each have a counter archers->shielder, shielder->cavalry, cavalry->throwers, etc. This makes the game far more balanced overall and forces more strategy and teamwork instead of having one-man wrecking crews throwing javelins and then meleeing with an elegant poleaxe with good wpf in each.
I do sacrifice something to be a hybrid. :rolleyes:
My 2her / thrower is @30
17/22
PS 5
PT 5
Ath 7
WM 7
2h 140
throwing 100
18/23
PS 6
Ath 7
WM 7
2h 187
That's not balance. Balance is when you have equal chances. If you have an automatic win for one guy, that's rock-paper-scissors balance. Which is a fun game for 10 seconds, but I'd hardly play that for hours: Oh look, an archer! Easy picking, no challange. Damn, now it's a horsie, why bother, I'm dead anyway.
Hybrids have versatility, you have a fair chance against anyone, but won't crush anyone by default.
p.s. gorath. your thing about a 2hander having 187 wpf is a lie.
my last build i put all my points into 1hander. with 8 weapon master i had 172 wpf at level 30.
People that hybridize might actually have to put a couple extra points into weaponmastery skill to master more than 1 weapon, which is not the case right now.
but need to rely on allies and teamworkThat's not balance, that's a cop out. True balance in a PvP game is based around 1v1. Anything else is admitting your failure and making excuses for it. "Oh, well we know that (Insert class here) sucks hardcore, but he's good in a group! Just don't ever be caught alone! Yeah, that's a fun thing to play".
why did you make the same thread in 2 sections?! I REFUSE TO SUPPORT YOUR MULTI-THREAD-EL TYRANNY! MY DIVINE WISDOM SHALL ONLY APPEAR IN THE OTHER THREAD FROM THIS POINT ON! GOOD DAY TO YOUR SIR!
I'm sorry if it nerfs the character you're currently playing, but as you said multiple times, success in this game should be based on player skill not on the power of your build.
Im a balanced hybrid of shield sword and throwing build. And I deffinitely don't need to be nerfed I do relatively well as it is. And im not a overpowered guy. Im not a super hero but ill lead the round ocasionally the things that need to be nerfed are all strength hammer spanning builds. Leave us balanced hybrids alone and go pick on people who use great mauls.i lol'd, great maul is slow as hell... nerf bar mace that craps fast and can crush through block in the hands of a thrower(also so known as pure str in most cases)
Join Lost Legion today.
Send me a message or add me on steam at Kolyskoa
but as you said multiple times, success in this game should be based on player skill not on the power of your build.
We already do. There's no way I can put more than 7 points into WM to achieve 140/100 wpf in 1h/xbow without going down to like 12 or less strength. With the system you propose I would just dump everything into 1her and leave xbow at 1 wpf and call it a day, I'd still put just as many projectiles in the air as before.
Really?Is this using the proposed wpf system or the current system?
ok. with a little help of your friends...
Shield: 5
Or even better, if you choose 2H\xbow
Athletics: 6
Really?
ok. with a little help of your friends...
Is this using the proposed wpf system or the current system?
however 2h+xbow is pretty retarded vs throwing imo
Not maxing out primary skills of the build seems rather icky to me, especially shields since everything but the huscarl needs as many shield points as possible in order to not break in 1 hit (which is a huge tradeoff in ability to melee in order to use the craptastic xbow). The 2h build seems good except not maxing out athletics, but overall much more doable however 2h+xbow is pretty retarded vs throwing imo.
A role-playing game player who forgoes making a well-rounded character to make an uber-powerful combat monster. Frequently a player with low self-esteem who is intent on making their character 'better' than the others.
It really is a bit silly when I can use nearly every weapon the the field to a competent degree.
Hybrids are fun, so called pure classes are boring to play. Whole point of .200 patch was to reduce those and force them to play for fun like everyone else does.
On minmaxing:
Just don't forget that before the big patch, person who started this thread played the god given archer class (there was never anything more broken than archery before 0.2 patch) and after patch farmed XP and gold for hours on EU servers :wink:
Ehem.
Boosting pure builds leads to returning many of the imbalances of the pre-patch CRPG.
Its not boosting pure builds as they still would end up amxing out at 140-150 wpf like now. But it would be rebalancing hyrbids so that real tradeoffs would have to be made to be a hybrid rather than just an easy no-brainer choice as you get 120 wpf in separate class for the price of 20 wpf in your main class. Not apure class bonus, but a removal of a game imbalance favoring melee/ranged hybrids.
People are complaining because their 20-30 extra WPF for specializing in one weapon is not an "I Win" button. Sorry, but Warband is based on skill, not character stats. 50 WPF and an awlpike used with skill can obliterate anything in melee. Having higher stats doesn't give you a right to win against a better player and that's how it should be It gives you a minor edge in damage and speed. That's all. If you think that you deserve to win even though you suck, go play EVE or WoW or Aion or something and grind until you've got three Titans and all the purples.
The legitimate complaints here are not related to melee combat. If you're losing in melee it is because you are bad at melee and you should feel bad and you need to go practice more melee combat in melee duels on the duel server. MELEE MELEE MELEE until you STOP SUCKING at MELEE. My archer gets tons of melee kills with exactly the setup I described above not because I'm great at the game or because the game is imbalanced, but because most people still fail to understand the basic mechanics of the game that got drilled into my head the hard way back in Native, back before you could blame your personal failings on some stats imbalance or on Goretooth's obnoxious black armor.
There are issues with ranged combat, but please don't punish hybrid builds or this mod will go back down the tubes. You only lose if you fail to block.
Player skill has nothing to do with game balance. Always assume the hybrid and the specialized character you compare are of equal player skill, or you're not talking about balance at all but about the possibility that a hybrid can kill a specialized melee character in melee, if the player is better. Of course that's possible, that's not the topic being discussed.
It seems ever since the patch hit with its rapidly increasing cost of wpf after 100 wpf, there has been a massive influx of hybrid builds, which means in most cases ranged/melee hybrid. Specialists in one field receive very little increased benefit (20-30 in main class more wpf = 100 in hybrid class) and so even more then pre-patch almost every person playing has some ranged weaponry (mostly throwing nowadays until its nerfed).
But the main purpose is to rebalance between specializing skills and hybridizing skills
People are complaining because their 20-30 extra WPF for specializing in one weapon is not an "I Win" button. Sorry, but Warband is based on skill, not character stats. 50 WPF and an awlpike used with skill can obliterate anything in melee. Having higher stats doesn't give you a right to win against a better player and that's how it should be It gives you a minor edge in damage and speed. That's all. If you think that you deserve to win even though you suck, go play EVE or WoW or Aion or something and grind until you've got three Titans and all the purples.
The legitimate complaints here are not related to melee combat. If you're losing in melee it is because you are bad at melee and you should feel bad and you need to go practice more melee combat in melee duels on the duel server. MELEE MELEE MELEE until you STOP SUCKING at MELEE. My archer gets tons of melee kills with exactly the setup I described above not because I'm great at the game or because the game is imbalanced, but because most people still fail to understand the basic mechanics of the game that got drilled into my head the hard way back in Native, back before you could blame your personal failings on some stats imbalance or on Goretooth's obnoxious black armor.
There are issues with ranged combat, but please don't punish hybrid builds or this mod will go back down the tubes. You only lose if you fail to block.
I think they should just put WPF costs back to what they were before the patch. The main problem prior to the patch wasn't with people who got high WM and invested a lot of points in WPF. The problem before was generation 15 people at level 42, with 6+ powerstrike and 250 wpf from retirement wpf bonus.
Since they took the retirement wpf exploit away, and created a softcap/hardcap for levels, I think making wpf more expensive was unnecessary overkill, and only serves to make specializing much less attractive. When the difference is only 20-30 additional wpf for being a specialist, it doesn't make sense to NOT be a hybrid.
I apologize if I repeated anything in this thread already. I could only be bothered to read the first page of replies.
ADHD Version: I think simply reverting wpf costs back to pre-patch levels would assist in cutting down on the hybrid builds, and make specialists worth considering again.
I think they should just put WPF costs back to what they were before the patch. The main problem prior to the patch wasn't with people who got high WM and invested a lot of points in WPF. The problem before was generation 15 people at level 42, with 6+ powerstrike and 250 wpf from retirement wpf bonus.
Since they took the retirement wpf exploit away, and created a softcap/hardcap for levels, I think making wpf more expensive was unnecessary overkill, and only serves to make specializing much less attractive. When the difference is only 20-30 additional wpf for being a specialist, it doesn't make sense to NOT be a hybrid.
I apologize if I repeated anything in this thread already. I could only be bothered to read the first page of replies.
ADHD Version: I think simply reverting wpf costs back to pre-patch levels would assist in cutting down on the hybrid builds, and make specialists worth considering again.
The easiest solution would be:
Add to every ranged weapon added as secondary weapon: -1 powerstrike
Add to every 2h/polearm added as secondary weapon: -1 athletics
Add to every shield not used with 1h as primary: -1 athletics
You got 4 slots to equip:
1 Primary slots
2-4 Slot: Secondary slots
=> If you only cary few things you stay as you are, if you carry a lot (and different things) you will get penaltys.
You only get nerfed if you equip it.
Perhaps its hard to understand but i tried my best to explain my idea ;)
I don't support this. I don't support penalizing hybrids. Going hybrid should be a valid option with no penalties, only tradeoffs. Currently, there is no tradeoff at all. 20 wpf is laughable, and not even noticeable in combat.
I think they should just put WPF costs back to what they were before the patch. The main problem prior to the patch wasn't with people who got high WM and invested a lot of points in WPF. The problem before was generation 15 people at level 42, with 6+ powerstrike and 250 wpf from retirement wpf bonus.
Since they took the retirement wpf exploit away, and created a softcap/hardcap for levels, I think making wpf more expensive was unnecessary overkill, and only serves to make specializing much less attractive. When the difference is only 20-30 additional wpf for being a specialist, it doesn't make sense to NOT be a hybrid.
I apologize if I repeated anything in this thread already. I could only be bothered to read the first page of replies.
ADHD Version: I think simply reverting wpf costs back to pre-patch levels would assist in cutting down on the hybrid builds, and make specialists worth considering again.
Currently, there is no tradeoff at all. 20 wpf is laughable, and not even noticeable in combat.
Well I suppose everyone is entitled to their feelings. 20 wpf is fucking huge man. That's another 2 ranks in WM just to get those 20 points. Specialists shouldn't recieve overwhelming advantages to specializing, sorry. I don't agree with that. I feel it's fine now. Specialists have an advantage in their chosen field (cheaper gear loadout, more WPF, greater speed/damage, more available skill and stat points). That's quite a bit and asking for more is just a case of wanting your build to carry you. Sorry that you made a poor tactical error by limiting your options in combat. Ideally the smartest player would have melee, ranged AND cav capability. You can pick up an xbow without any cost investment and be a hybrid too. Specialists have always been a poor tactical decision for the battlefield, except that pre-patch they were capable of breaking mechanics/animations and utilizing a 1-shot kill sniper x-bow with 0 investment. Now the sniper might take 2 hits. Wah, poor specialists...
Seriously if less gear, higher attainable wpf for less investment, greater speed/damage potential from build, and more available skill and stat points aren't enough of a benefit to specialists then something is seriously wrong with specialists players. Sorry that it isn't an I-win button I guess.
But thats exactly the point, hybrids have become an I-win buttonHow is it an I-win button? They have to be good at melee and ranged, and they're sub-par to both of those respective "pure" builds when fighting in those specific roles.
we are asking for more game balance through having real tradeoffs like before to be a hyrbid.What tradeoffs were there before? I was a 4 weapon hybrid before, all of them over 100 wpf. Pre-patch it was MUCH easier to be a hybrid. The only thing that's changed from before is that a "pure" character can't achieve game-breaking levels of wpf/agi combinations. Hell, before the game was a matter of 40% archers with rediculous sniper-like accuracy, machine gun rates of fire, railgun deadly arrows with a cookies sword, 40% tin-can wearing lolsword user with animation breaking attack speed and a 1 wpf sniper x-bow or two that one shot everyone, and 10% other people.
As it is now you just put 120 points into throwing or archery or xbow and you have accuracy almost as good as a pure ranged at the cost of only 20 wpf in your main class so you still have almost the exact same speed and damage as a pure meleeist as well.Almost as good, and almost the same. That's the tradeoff. You have to compensate through better gameplay. The benefit is versatility on the field. Which makes more logical sense than someone specializing in only one field. Look at the melee classes in Native for example. Equip 2her/polearm in slot 1, equip 3x whatever thrown weapon was available in slots 2-4. Hybrid, with no drawbacks at all compared to someone that only equipped the 2her but not the throwing weapons. That's how I played in Native as well; 2h + 3x thrown weapons. It's silly to limit yourself to only one type of combat and isn't realistic at all (yes I know everyone hates realism arguments)
How is that not an overwhelming advantage without tradeoffs.There are tradeoffs, you mentioned them you're just ignoring them or writing them off as insignificant. Which I disagree with. The ability to get 150 wpf in my weapon while using less points in WM (why put more points in there beyond 150 when I can spend them elsewhere) have a cheaper loadout, have 3-6 MORE stat points is fucking huge and I definately notice it when fighting pure builders. They're faster, hit harder and typically have better armor than I do.
The proof is in the pudding, 80-90% of people on servers now are hybrids with a crapload of melee/ranged hybrids. Why? Because the system has become imbalanced toward a particular character setup and to remain competitive most people have to emulate or lose to the people who took the I-win class.All I notice are more throwers instead of archers. Otherwise I see it exactly the same as before. I'm sorry but every archer pre-patch who was supposedly "pure" had either a 2her or polearm with the benefit of high str and high agility. They were hybrids. Every "pure" melee had a sniper x-bow with 1 wpf which was highly accurate and 1-shot everyone. They were hybrids with no drawback. The current system is much better in that you actually see a benefit for being a "real" hybrid instead of a supposed "pure" build which was really just a hybrid that exploited crappy mechanics because they could break the system in some manner.
It's silly to limit yourself to only one type of combat and isn't realistic at all (yes I know everyone hates realism arguments)
For example: Pre patch my 2her had
150/120 2h/throwing wpf respectively.
I would fight against "pures" who had 200+ wpf, higher agi because of a lessened point cost than I had and could break animations in melee or pull out their sniper x-bow and 1-shot me if they felt like it.
Now he has
140/100 2h/throwing wpf respectively. He actually got WORSE because of the patch. However those "pures" can no longer break animations in melee and have stopped carrying 1-shot sniper xbows with 1 wpf (by their own choice, you can still carry a sniper x-bow with 1 wpf and 2 shot people, or 1-shot an injured person). Now I can actually have a fight with them purely because they aren't capable of breaking parts of the game. They still have higher wpf and stats than I do, but it's in the realm of sanity instead of being flat out broken. Perhaps "pure" builds just need to adapt and re-learn how to build their character within the realm of reason rather than pigning for the days of having an "I-win cause I broke the game" character stats to back up their play.
Wait how are hybrids more realistic? Yes an archer or crossbow man would carry a melee weapon, but they weren't trained in them.
Back in the middle ages the only specialty classes were archers. All infantry were expected to use shield spear and 1h. And it wasn't hard to chuck random weapons at eachother in battle stop being retards
Back in the middle ages the only specialty classes were archers.
Well I suppose everyone is entitled to their feelings. 20 wpf is fucking huge man.
That's completely false. Do you really believe that soldiers, military personel didn't train in every weapon they were expected to use on the field? While they may not have had some direct tutelage from some grand master sword diety shang fung or other silliness but every professional soldier throughout history worth his salt has trained in any weaponry he could expect to use on a regular basis. Do modern day soldiers only train to shoot OR engage in hand to hand/close quarters combat? No, they train in both and in a diversity of weaponry. Soldiers in history would have trained (be it with wooden swords or live weapon training) constantly. In some cultures this was even required (England during a period of time expected every able man to practice with the bow regularly). In fact your perception of such specialized "fodder"; for any professional soldier, or any man expecting to engage in martial combat for that matter, who would train in a single weapon to the exlusion of all others could be considered fodder on the battlefield; leads me to believe that you've played far too many bad RPG's.
In this particular case, with fairly high WM, the difference between the xbow/2h build and a pure 2h build is only 24 wpf. To me, that is very little tradeoff at all.
20 WPF = 3% More speed/dmg.That's pretty significant. Equivalent to an extra 6 agility. Not to mention the extra 3 stat points you can have for not putting skill points into PD or PT.
And about it taking 2 more ranks of WM to get that? That is my point. Paying for WPF over 130 or so is somewhat redundant. You're just losing points and wasting skills/wpf. You're much better off now saving 2-3 skill points in WM, using those on PT, and getting some throwing prof.Indeed, versatility does seem to be a better investment from a logical standpoint. This makes sense and I see no issue with it. The other option as a pure build is to stop at 130 wpf (and only as much WM as needed) and take those extra skill points you were going to use trying to break the speed barrier and instead put some into shield (so the ranged weapon whine will stop), riding, or convert to even more stats and get an even higher str/agi setup. Benefits all around.
Or alternatively, you could be an xbowman with PS:5, ATH:8, WM:8, and have 150 2h proficiency, with 115 xbow proficiency.
In this particular case, with fairly high WM, the difference between the xbow/2h build and a pure 2h build is only 24 wpf. To me, that is very little tradeoff at all.
Under your proposed changes any smart hybrid will simply forgo any WPF in throwing or x-bow and still use them with 1wpf while putting all of their wpf into melee so that pures gain nothing except a few stat points and the hybrid can still put ranged spam into the air around the pure at will.
Xbow with 1wpf isn't a problem, it's not accurate at all and doesn't really make someone a hybrid. The problem with xbows is that even after putting alof of wpf they're still not accurate enough, so the xbowman currently is the only build that requires specialization to do reasonably well. That explains also why there so few xbowman.
That's pretty significant. Equivalent to an extra 6 agility. Not to mention the extra 3 stat points you can have for not putting skill points into PD or PT.
And this is good, because it is a choice. You're taking a logical limitation in order to gain as you said 3% extra speed and damage (which in any RPG is pretty significant).
You're completely ignoring the skill factor. Those minor increases aren't going to help you much in a fight against someone that outskills you. And if you outskill your opponent, you won't need those stat points anyway. Throwing or a crossbow for instance are far more useful than 3% extra speed and damage. You talk about choice, but currently the choice is between a minor stat bonus that is only usefull against someone of equal skill as you VS a secondary weapon that is useful in every situation. Not much of a choice.
Bruce and heroin have the right idea. Oh and do something about 1 wpf throwing.
You're completely ignoring the skill factor.
change power throw to affect damage only and not accuracy and everything will be wonderful.If people have to build a proper hybrid, IE: Putting 100+ wpf into the secondary weapon, then you will see far less of these 11PT 1-shot throwers who poop out a bar-mace and crush you when you get too close. Or some other melee weapon because they were able to put all of their wpf into their melee weapon without requiring a hefty agi investment for extra wpf.
I would argue that if you wanted to further differentiate hybrids from pures you could start raising wpf prices earlier but make the price somewhat lower in the 120-140 region, so the total for a built char is more or less the same but the hybrid is, well, penalized more.
What I really don't want to see again are 200 wpf archers, etc.
Edit: yes throwing is a problem, but its got nothing to do with wpf. you can use it just fine with 0 wpf if you want.
I take it your hybrid ;). Its not punishing hybrids, but recognizing they got the biggest bonus of any class with the patch and it was a bit excessive. Balancing the game more will not make it go down the tubes but require more skill. As of now those hybrids get the benfit of first hitting you with a throwing axe (bolt, arrow, etc.) and then having nearly the same wpf for damage and speed when they move in to duel. There is no tradeoff for hybridizing and so you win not because you are more skilled but because you have better stats, which is exactly what you are complaining about.
If sliding 50 wpf into polearms with 4PS makes my archer a hybrid, whatever. If you can't win at 150 wpf vs 50 wpf then you need more practice. It sounds to me like people want 200 melee wpf specialists vs 1 melee wpf archers/throwers so they can just spam spam like n00bs without having to block.
My other character is a 1h/shield character with only about 70 wpf into polearms for cav stopping. None of my characters use throwing weapons or crossbows, and I don't have any particular difficulty with people who use ranged weapons against me.
Like I pointed out originally, your real problem is with ranged weapons, so get a shield.
Just because youa re not taking advantage of the hybrid bonus to make a decent hybrid doeant mean most other people are not. You could easily have 120 not 50 and it would only have cost you 10-15 more wpf from your main class archery. So you can shoot people to death and then go melee with almost exacts ame speed/damagea s a pure meleeist. Or duel pure archers witha lmost exact same damage/draw speed, maybe slower if they use a bow even one power draw level higher then yours. you get the best of both worlds with no tradeoff.
Um, no. The difference between an archer with 150+ wpf and 120 wpf is HUGE. Rediculously huge. Almost 150% as fast as the guy with 120. The big issue here, that you and other nerf-mongers conveniently keep avoiding, is the fact that it's THROWING you have the problem with, not hybrids. Seriously, you're saying a 1h/2h hybrid (120/130 wpf respectively) is OP? Really?
No, it's not OP. And I haven't been fighting to eliminate the ability to go hybrid. I'm arguing for a return of the old wpf costs to make specialists worth doing. You've pointed out several times that I am a specialist, when that isn't the case. Pretty much all of my characters are hybrids, and mostly because being a specialist doesn't really carry any/enough advantage.
With the old wpf costs, hybrids will still be able to have 120/130 wpf. The only difference will be, that instead of 150 wpf, a specialist will have 180. Which is a significant advantage in their chosen field, yes, but it is far from an "I win" button, as people have stated previously.
In this case, they are "buying" a significant advantage at the cost of versatility. As opposed to the current system, where a specialist also gives up versatility, but in exchange gets a relatively insignificant advantage.
No, it's not OP. And I haven't been fighting to eliminate the ability to go hybrid. I'm arguing for a return of the old wpf costs to make specialists worth doing. You've pointed out several times that I am a specialist, when that isn't the case. Pretty much all of my characters are hybrids, and mostly because being a specialist doesn't really carry any/enough advantage.
With the old wpf costs, hybrids will still be able to have 120/130 wpf. The only difference will be, that instead of 150 wpf, a specialist will have 180. Which is a significant advantage in their chosen field, yes, but it is far from an "I win" button, as people have stated previously.
In this case, they are "buying" a significant advantage at the cost of versatility. As opposed to the current system, where a specialist also gives up versatility, but in exchange gets a relatively insignificant advantage.
1 - the super-wpf got nerfed for (good) reason.
2 -And anyway it'd do NOTHING to combat hybrids
Dont work with high tier bows.
Yes, you can do char with 3 athletic, but it hopeless in any archer duel
Using the pre-patch system I'm fine with this idea, as long as 200+wpf isn't obtainable as that is where a good many issues started to occur.
wut?
That wasn't an archer build, and archers are hybrids anyways by nature. Until you remove the ability for them to pick up and swing a melee weapon they are, and always will be, hybrids. Regardless of build design.
You can use all weapon with str requirement without investing wpf. 2h, 1h, pole, xbows. Does it mean you are hybrid in all this proficiences?
It's all about "Fucking hell, he can use a ranged attack AND fight in melee? NERF!".
No. it's all about "Fucking hell, he can ONESHOT me with ranged attack AND fight in melee.
IMHO oneshot ranged weapon must be property of dedicated build.
Actually the point of the thread is hybrids have skills committed to more then 1 class, being able to use soemthing at 1 wpf does not make you an effective hybrid. Buta s it is currently the only real choice is hybrids because wpf is so cheap at low levels compared to high levels.Well currently it's a viable choice. With changes, it would be a retarded choice to ever hybrid instead of simply using the ranged weapon at 1wpf (other than bows). Hell even currently the payoff for investing 100wpf into throwing or x-bow is negligable compared to just using it at 1 wpf. Throwing for instance feels like using the force no matter what and willing it to hit the target. If my 100 wpf in throwing worked like with bows then my war darts would go in the middle of my reticule every shot and the reticule itself would be ALOT tighter (since war darts is = to lower tier bow by comparison). However this isn't the case.
The only ranged weapons which have ever one-shot me, and I don't use IF at all in any build, are throwing lances. Everything else takes at least 2-shots to bring me from 100%-0%.
And still you haven't talked about a double melee hybrid at all. Everyone keeps skimming over this fact. Where's the outcries that 1h+polearm hybrids are OP. Or 1h+2h hybrids. Or 2h+polearms? They're still making use of the ability to hybrid, but it keeps getting glossed over. Or is it people don't care if those guys get fucked as long as ranged hybrids get the shaft? *punny*
People are complaining because their 20-30 extra WPF for specializing in one weapon is not an "I Win" button. Sorry, but Warband is based on skill,
not character stats.
50 WPF and an awlpike used with skill can obliterate anything in melee. Having higher stats doesn't give you a right to win against a better player and that's how it should be
It gives you a minor edge in damage and speed. That's all. If you think that you deserve to win even though you suck, go play EVE or WoW or Aion or something and grind until you've got three Titans and all the purples.
The legitimate complaints here are not related to melee combat. If you're losing in melee it is because you are bad at melee and you should feel bad and you need to go practice more melee combat in melee duels on the duel server. MELEE MELEE MELEE until you STOP SUCKING at MELEE.
My archer gets tons of melee kills with exactly the setup I described above not because I'm great at the game or because the game is imbalanced,
but because most people still fail to understand the basic mechanics of the game that got drilled into my head
the hard way back in Native, back before you could blame your personal failings on some stats imbalance or on Goretooth's obnoxious black armor.
There are issues with ranged combat, but please don't punish hybrid builds
or this mod will go back down the tubes. You only lose if you fail to block.
When a dedicated melee loses against a ranger in melee, there are only two options: The ranger is extremly skilled, or the game is not balanced very well. One cant be it, cos if the ranger had some skill in melee, he wouldnt have to play a melee combat game as ranged my old friend, he would play as a melee warrior. So it has to be two.