Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization

[Punisher]

I like Hybrids.  games that have set classes are lame.

The problem is currently the benefits of a hybrid build far outweight the cons. This won't remove hybrids, it would balance them, you will need more agility/weapon master skill to be a hybrid, like it should be.

Hybrids do sacrifice, the mechanics say you SHOULD win.  If you're not beating that hybrid in melee with your melee specialized character you are failing your build, not the other way around.

The problem are throwing hybrids, not melee. You can now have a 24/12 2H/thrower that is incredibly efficient in both. But this is part of the fact that throwing can we efficient with low or no WPF.

[Gorath]

The problem is currently the benefits of a hybrid build far outweight the cons. This won't remove hybrids, it would balance them, you will need more agility/weapon master skill to be a hybrid, like it should be.

Like it already is you mean.   
Any more requirement puts the agility/wm requirement into unreachable levels period (at least for throwers) and thus we will forgo any WPF in the 2nd skill (like pre-patch) and just kick it throwing things in the general direction of your mob of enemies and wait for a lucky hit with high PT skill.  Or use 1wpf in xbow instead of 100.  Or 1 wpf in 2h/pole on our archers rather than 50-100.

If anything what you guys suggest would simply force us back into streamlining like we did pre-patch and nothing would change.  As long as there's a way to build a ranged/melee hybrid it will be made by those of us that want to do it.  Currently we make sacrifices to do so, with the proposed changes I will still make ranged/melee hybrids but do it in such a way that I sacrifice nothing.

The problem are throwing hybrids, not melee. You can now have a 24/12 2H/thrower that is incredibly efficient in both. But this is part of the fact that throwing can we efficient with low or no WPF.

Right, like I said.  I'm willing to bet that 24/12 2h/thrower build doesn't have much wpf in throwing at all, if any.  I wouldn't put any wpf into throwing and would still lob shit in the air in your general direction as you advance.  Other than fucking up most people's builds and forcing a retire/re-roll to reallocate stats how does this suggestion solve the problem?  Just leave throwing at 1 wpf and put all wpf into 2her and still just throw a bunch of shit in the direction of enemies, see if you get a kill, pick up the misses.  Not much different than now.

[Matey]

heres a couple o suggestions i have.

i dont agree with 5 cost per wpf across the board as it would further handicap lower level chars.
instead, you could reduce the amount of points it costs at higher profs... but i dont think that is necessary either.

the real problem right now is that wpf doesnt mean enough for some weapon sets. possible solutions could be, wpf requirments for some weapons; eg. you could need 100 throwing wpf to use higher end throw weps. or you could need 100wpf in 2hander to use a flamberge... but this isnt my favourite solution either...

the solution i would like to see is to make wpf actually mean more... instead of power throw being the only thing necessary for a thrower... change power throw so that it is ups damage only, and accuracy not at all. make it so wpf was necessary for accuracy. i tried archer out this time around and i found that until i hit 130 wpf in archery... i was mostly useless... this is despite having 7 power draw and a khergit bow.

gorath is correct in saying that you dont NEED any wpf with a wep to use it somewhat effectively... but i dont care if people with 1wpf pick up a bec and swing it around... because somewhat effectively isnt enough to let them beat good players regularily. i tried using 2h and polearm weps with my archer build who is archery/1hander... i could beat down some players with them, but better players had an overwhelming speed advantage on me and just blocked my attack and then spammed me into the ground (and im not complaining that they spammed me... it was the right play on their part). if we are worried though, we could perhaps make wpf mean more... whether speed or damage.

as far as hybrids go though, it is only the thrower hybrids that really seem to be offending everyone.

archer hybrids might be annoying, but generally speaking a melee specialist will shit kick a archer/melee hybrid if he gets close enough.

crossbow hybrids are rare to begin with, and though they dont need much xbow wpf to use an xbow... the xbow is so slow and expensive that most people dont bother with them anymore.

throwers hybrids are the problem because they dont even NEED wpf in throwing. archers will wear lighter armour because their bow is their main wep and they need the mobility... throwers can tin can it up without worry, they dont care if people get close to them... because they are (arbitrary number alert!) 95% as melee specialized as any other melee char... the only thing they dont have that a melee specialsit does... is 4-8 skill points to spend on soething other than power throw.

messing around with wpf might help but overall the only thing that really has to be done... is to make throwing wpf actually mean something... and while fixing that... perhaps making xbow prof actually mean soething would be nice too. maybe then we would see throwers instead of melees who can throw... and crossbowers instead of melees who sometimes shoot people with an xbow.


p.s. gorath. your thing about a 2hander having 187 wpf is a lie.
my last build i put all my points into 1hander. with 8 weapon master i had 172 wpf at level 30.

[Matey]

why did you make the same thread in 2 sections?! I REFUSE TO SUPPORT YOUR MULTI-THREAD-EL TYRANNY! MY DIVINE WISDOM SHALL ONLY APPEAR IN THE OTHER THREAD FROM THIS POINT ON! GOOD DAY TO YOUR SIR!

[Ishar]

Also,  hybrid classes have fewer counters, whereas specialized classes each have a counter archers->shielder, shielder->cavalry, cavalry->throwers, etc.  This makes the game far more balanced overall and forces more strategy and teamwork instead of having one-man wrecking crews throwing javelins and then meleeing with an elegant poleaxe with good wpf in each.

That's not balance. Balance is when you have equal chances. If you have an automatic win for one guy, that's rock-paper-scissors balance. Which is a fun game for 10 seconds, but I'd hardly play that for hours: Oh look, an archer! Easy picking, no challange. Damn, now it's a horsie, why bother, I'm dead anyway.
Hybrids have versatility, you have a fair chance against anyone, but won't crush anyone by default.

[Keshian]

I do sacrifice something to be a hybrid.    
My 2her / thrower is @30
17/22

PS 5
PT 5
Ath 7
WM 7

2h 140
throwing 100

18/23
PS 6
Ath 7
WM 7

2h 187

Matey is right about the wpf calculation, with the character planner (which is up to date with the patch):
level 30 7 weaponmaster would give 140 2h, 110 throwing OR 164 2h.  A WHOPPING 24 more wpf in your main class vs. 110 wpf ina  secondary class.  The question isnt about making hybrids viable or that it will solve all the game imbalances and excessive ranged, but we need to rebalance between people that specialize and people that hybridize.  As it is now, overwhelming advantage to hybridizers (why almost everyone is hybrid now) with little disadvantage.  This is entirely due to chadz's rapidly escalating wpf cost after 100 wpf.  By switching it to a flat rate it balances between hyrbidizing and specializing because its an equal 1:1 tradeoff to put wpf into another class.  You can have 160 in one class OR 100 in one with 60 in another OR 80 in each, which is a far more balanced way to do it and fair.  People that hybridize might actually have to put a couple extra points into weaponmastery skill to master more than 1 weapon, which is not the case right now.
 
Why should people that hybridize their characters get a huge wpf discount?

[Keshian]

That's not balance. Balance is when you have equal chances. If you have an automatic win for one guy, that's rock-paper-scissors balance. Which is a fun game for 10 seconds, but I'd hardly play that for hours: Oh look, an archer! Easy picking, no challange. Damn, now it's a horsie, why bother, I'm dead anyway.
Hybrids have versatility, you have a fair chance against anyone, but won't crush anyone by default.

Thats where strategy and teamwork is involved, you dont get to have your cake and eat it too, but need to rely on allies and teamwork and not just charging like a one-man wrecking crew with a high strength build that still has good wpf in both a  melee and ranged weapon skill.  The balance is that you have to do equal tradeoffs instead of getting huge wpf discounts when hybridizing now comapred to specialists.

[Gorath]

p.s. gorath. your thing about a 2hander having 187 wpf is a lie.
my last build i put all my points into 1hander. with 8 weapon master i had 172 wpf at level 30.

You're right I fucked up my math.  At 9 WM you will have 181 wpf, 8= 172, 7=163.

Either way the problem people have is with throwing.  You could try to make wpf mean more for throwers (I currently have 100 on my 2h/thrower and it sure feels like a waste) but that really doesn't fix the number of ranged weapons in the air at any point.  Even with 1 wpf 0 PT accuracy on every throwing weapon, if I can lob 12 javelins in your direction, random chance will take care of the rest.  Still a worthwhile investment.  Like xbows with 1 wpf.

Currently my xbow/1her hybrid (Vyrus) uses melee far more than the xbow because lets face it, xbows are crap.  They're only really good in siege where you get to pop off multiple shots if you're a defender.  Otherwise the really slow reload time, along with needing more than 1 shot unless it's a headshot just doesn't cut it as a primary weapon.  Xbows pretty much HAVE to hybrid with more of a focus in melee.  He's still fun sure, but overall the xbow is just meh.  Great reticule with 100 wpf (wpf does indeed affect xbows quite a bit as far as reticule accuracy) but the weapon itself is just lackluster.

People that hybridize might actually have to put a couple extra points into weaponmastery skill to master more than 1 weapon, which is not the case right now.

We already do.  There's no way I can put more than 7 points into WM to achieve 140/100 wpf in 1h/xbow without going down to like 12 or less strength.  With the system you propose I would just dump everything into 1her and leave xbow at 1 wpf and call it a day, I'd still put just as many projectiles in the air as before.

With my thrower I'd just dump everything into 2her and leave throwing at 1 and still spam just as many war darts at you as before.

Archers wouldn't change.

Really all this proposal would do is force a re-roll to adjust, the issue people have with the number of hybrids and ranged projectiles in the air wouldn't really change.

but need to rely on allies and teamwork

That's not balance, that's a cop out.  True balance in a PvP game is based around 1v1.  Anything else is admitting your failure and making excuses for it.  "Oh, well we know that (Insert class here) sucks hardcore, but he's good in a group!  Just don't ever be caught alone!  Yeah, that's a fun thing to play".

[Keshian]

why did you make the same thread in 2 sections?! I REFUSE TO SUPPORT YOUR MULTI-THREAD-EL TYRANNY! MY DIVINE WISDOM SHALL ONLY APPEAR IN THE OTHER THREAD FROM THIS POINT ON! GOOD DAY TO YOUR SIR!

Sorry, matey. lol.  Too many forums now, gets confusing on which one chadz might actually potentially read and make use of a suggestion.

[Keshian]

Gorath, it would solve the favoritism toward hyrbids where they get a huge relative wpf discount on their secondary skill because chadz made wpf cost escalate so rapidly after 100 wpf.  Also, that would still reduce number of projectiles in the air somewhat as xbows slow to reload (wpf reduces reload speed), archer hyrbids would shoot slower (wpf affects draw speed), and throwers would be less accurate and their ability to thow accurately while running also require wpf commitment (and hopefully fewer of them once chadz nerfs the damage soon after his exams).  But the main purpose is to rebalance between specializing skills and hybridizing skills.  Not everyone wants to be a hybrid, but post-patch it just make overwhelming sense to do it because of the huge relative wpf discoutn on a secondary skill.

Another idea is to make it 3 wpf from 1-100 wpf and 7 wpf from 101-200 wpf.  With the current exponential system a great number of imbalances were created, maybe going back to the steady increasing wpf cost pre-patch could work, but a flat system is blatantly fair -> nobody gets favored as every wpf you commit costs the same whatever class you put it in.

[balbaroth]

i already said my comment about the way wpf's get scaled , and i think they went overboard with it , to counter the specialized builds
, i was talking to allers and he has a 30 str 3 agi build and he still has 122 in 2h , as you can see who need 50 more in a specific weapon , its barely faster , but with lots of str you 1 shot people , the balance is whack ,

[EponiCo]

Honestly, "pure" builds are a joke anyway. Archer with a few points in melee who fights at a disadvantage (which is very much still there) is way better than archer who can only ever hide on inaccessible roofs. Advantage of making a melee hybrid - well, if I meet a specialised backpeddle polearm spammer who is all reliant on me having a onehander I have polearm skill as well, and that's about it. I could just make a pure polearmer or 1h the versatility in each category is good enough, and I'd be more effective in 90% of all situations. As it is now, you build a character that focuses one on thing and is ok at another, pure specialist will still have an advantage in their field, but not a big one.
Only throwing is problematic, that's just because throwing is too strong (only class that wasn't nerfed in patch, and was already strong before) - and you can just throw them into the crowd randomly without wpf. In EU balance seems to be now ~ 25% archers/xbowers, rest melee ... and loads of thrower hybrids.

And balbaroth, agi build has higher speed especially in movement from agility. Can engage and disengage at will, can use footwork to spam, can dodge arrows, with these stats you don't really need extra wpf to fight efficiently, sometimes I take just shirt and katana at 1 wpf and still kill people with it.

[Gorath]

Well I had a long answer typed up but the thread was moved so I lost it.  The TLDR version:

Throwing is the issue everyone is having.  Fix the problem, don't create a new problem while doing nothing to solve the previous problem.
Building an artificial system where pure builds are given advantages to the point where they trump anything in their chosen field would mean needing to rebalance the entire game as otherwise it's simply imbalanced in the favor of 2h/pole characters while everyone else eats shit.  A pure xbower/thrower is shit, and a game where there's only "pures" leaves 1hers at the bottom of the melee food chain as well (since every 2her/pole can use a shield to advance as well).  Archers would be meh, but still better than every other ranged option by so much it's silly.

*Incoming RL comparison, feel free to ignore*
Pure builds are illogical anyways:  Soldiers don't train to shoot and neglect everything else.  They train in hand to hand/melee combat as well.  It's always been this way. /RL comparison

You (collective, not any single person) say that there's more/too much ranged shit flying through the air.  I say that I notice no difference in the amount, only the type.  Pre-patch is was a million arrows of death + a thousand xbow bolts of death and a few throwing things here and there.  When the patch hit and the sniper xbow (which almost EVERY so called "pure build" carried) was nerfed, most went throwing.  When archery was changed/nerfed alot of them went throwing rather than adapt.  It's simply the type of ranged spam that changed, not the amount.

In native as a 2her even I always grabbed 3 stacks of throwing weapons to spam the air, and people complained there too.  That was with set skills/stats.  I could melee as well as the 2her that chose not to and it was balanced.  It was also easier pre-patch to hybrid compared to now (Gorath was 100+ in 4 different weapons, and my current 2h/thrower was 150-130 rather than 140-100 like currently).

So nerf throwing, or rebalance the entire game.  Don't say rock/paper/scissors bullshit balance either, that's what made WoW and most MMO PVP craptastic.  This is a FPS combat system at heart, and FPS's require 1v1 balance to be taken seriously.

[Ganon]

Gorath we don't need a pure class system to make it more balanced, we just need to limit the efficiency of hybrids which is imba currently. So i agree with the OP, that's a good idea to start with. I would also suggest to up the requirement of most weapons, which still doesn't make it class based but will force some high agi hybrid to go with balanced stats, same for high str hybrids. Just some small changes to improve game balance, not a complete overhaul. I'm sorry if it nerfs the character you're currently playing, but as you said multiple times, success in this game should be based on player skill not on the power of your build.

[Gorath]

I'm sorry if it nerfs the character you're currently playing, but as you said multiple times, success in this game should be based on player skill not on the power of your build.

It's not that, I have multiple characters and have no problem rerolling to re-allocate stats/skills.  I'll find another build I can do to achieve the same effective hybrid level in some way (there's always some mechanic exploit if need be I'm sure).  But what you just said about "which still doesn't make it class based but will force some high agi hybrid to go with balanced stats, same for high str hybrids." doesn't make sense to me... So it's not about throwing it's about people not playing balanced stat builds?  What?

I mean, whatever I'll adapt as always, but now it sounds like a bunch of homogenization which takes away from the main point of cRPG - character customization.  If the mechanics are made so that only balanced builds are really feasible, with only pure builds then that gets aweful close to just using native pre-built characters with gear customization.  If that's what we're going for then ok, but I'm surprised that's what you want.

*And to be honest, what you're suggesting doesn't make me change my builds much at all as I'm almost always balanced builds anyways 15/21 or 18/18.  If I can't do 140 in my melee and 100 in throwing under this wpf system with my balanced build, I'll just go with 1 wpf and spam them at people anyways, not much changes there either as I only use them as harrassment/forcing archers to move instead of stand still and shoot.*

While you say it wouldn't require a complete overhaul I can almost guarantee you that an artificial limiting system which gives pure builds overwhelming advantages vs hybrids would require a complete overhaul to retain any semblance of internal balance.