Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization

[tankmen]

Im a balanced hybrid of shield sword and throwing build. And I deffinitely don't need to be nerfed I do relatively well as it is.  And im not a overpowered guy. Im not a super hero but ill lead the round ocasionally the things that need to be nerfed are all strength hammer spanning builds. Leave us balanced hybrids alone and go pick on people who use great mauls.

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i lol'd, great maul is slow as hell... nerf bar mace that craps fast and can crush through block in the hands of a thrower(also so known as pure str in most cases)

[Gorath]

but as you said multiple times, success in this game should be based on player skill not on the power of your build.

I believe that whole-heartedly.  What I wonder though is do you?  This entire thread is about "My build isn't giving me an auto-win vs this other build, buff me, nerf him".  If you're a pure 2her, I'm a 2h/throwing hybrid with 5-6 skill points spent in throwing and 100 wpf in throwing, then in melee you have a clear mathematical and mechanical advantage over me.  This is undeniable.  So if I win, it's cause my build carried me?  But if you win, you're skilled?  Wouldn't your build have carried you if you win because it's got the numerical advantage over me in melee going by stats/skills?  And if I won, I'm clearly more skilled?  How does it work exactly?

Or is it the fact that we engage in melee, and I maneuver out of range and swap weapons to lawn dart you in the face?  That's my build carrying me?  What if it was a sniper x-bow and a lucky shotgunned headshot in that situation, where I didn't have any wpf or skill points into it?  Is it still the build then?  Wouldn't that be tactical intelligence, another often overlooked skill?

I mean, this sounds just a tad hypocritical here considering the thread is based around "Nerf their build, mine isn't carrying me".

[UrLukur]

Hybrids are fine, if you don't feel those 20+ wpf points, and higher armor or better weapons (you don't have to pay upkeep for secondary weapon, ranged weapons are costly) then i can't help you. Going pure build give some edge in that field, don't tell me it's meaningless, it counts.

[bruce]

I'm inclined to agree with Gorath.

If a hybrid of X+Y (let's not name concrete classes) is "too powerful" (or, for that matter, too popular) , then maybe we should consider X & Y individually, and how they play together (regarding upkeep/etc) rather then the issue of hybrids in general (which is definitely not a problem).

In fact, I would rather say that some degree of hybridization is good overall (for instance, archers having powerstrike and a melee weapon, so they don't have to run away from everyone).

[DrKronic]

I thinks its balanced, I don't go hybrid and if I'm wearing wortwhile gear and trying to fight instead of being attacked by my baby(both big maybes with me lol) I do well against hybrids, and I've made throwing/polearm hybrid pre-bigpatch and I was good with that, but not so much more than I can be with anything really given luck, effort and gear

and I guess what I mean even though I may be only slightly faster than a hybrid, I think that  definitely does count for something, if you made what specialists stronger, it wouldn't be good for the masses imo

[Havoco]

I agree with both to gorath and kesh to a point. It doesn't take any wpf to use any weapon In the game. But to use them effectively you DO need wpf. Wpf for the reload speed on xbows, wpf for the reload speed and accuracy on bows, wpf for speed on melée. what is it used for on throwing? Speed? Yes because you know throwers want to release their 8 javs or axes as quickly as possible. Maybe damage? Why? An extra 1% or 2% damage per 10 wpf? I'd use that for speed and the little dmg increase in my melée. Plus throwers can use shields. The only ranged class that can use an anti ranged item while being ranges themselves. The only disadvantage they have-ammo. And, with so many throwers running around, all they have to do is pick the weapon off the ground. You could argue that another disadvantage is shoot speed. But, In most scenarios the throwers are close, which almost negates shoot speed. All they need is 1 nerf ( IMO  the Only 2 possible nerfs should be the inability to pick up shot/thrown projectiles or a small dmg nerf)
in the end this IS chadzRPG, and he will do with it as he wishes. 

Edit: btw this isn't a rage post. The only factor that needs to be considered is that there are MORE of them.

[Cup1d]

We already do.  There's no way I can put more than 7 points into WM to achieve 140/100 wpf in 1h/xbow without going down to like 12 or less strength.  With the system you propose I would just dump everything into 1her and leave xbow at 1 wpf and call it a day, I'd still put just as many projectiles in the air as before.

Really?

ok. with a little help of your friends...

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 24
Hit points: 50
Converted: 6
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 5
Athletics: 8
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 8
One Handed: 145
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 120
Throwing: 1


Or even better, if you choose 2H\xbow

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 27
Hit points: 50
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 157
Polearm: 1
Archery: 120
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

[Gorath]

Really?

ok. with a little help of your friends...

Shield: 5

Or even better, if you choose 2H\xbow

Athletics: 6

Is this using the proposed wpf system or the current system?

Not maxing out primary skills of the build seems rather icky to me, especially shields since everything but the huscarl needs as many shield points as possible in order to not break in 1 hit (which is a huge tradeoff in ability to melee in order to use the craptastic xbow).  The 2h build seems good except not maxing out athletics, but overall much more doable however 2h+xbow is pretty retarded vs throwing imo.

Still you're correct, going full agi heavy and converting a bunch of primary skills into stats will let you achieve a higher wm.  Good show.
I'd like to see how you would do this with a throwing build.  For the one hander build the only thing I can see would be to steal those 5 points from athletics, which for a 1her is tantamount to suicide.

The 2her is more possible by dropping down to 24 agi and stealing a point from athletics to hit 5 PT.  Still, these are pretty inefficient builds and it would make much more sense to simply leave 1 wpf in xbow-throwing and save yourself the need of having a higher WM.  The trade-off for getting that 100 wpf in xbow/throwing simply isn't worth it for what you sacrifice in those builds you posted.  Just my opinion though.

[Rumblood]

Kesh, the problem is that we HAD a game where PURE devoted types could be devastating in their arena. But YOU had to go and ruin it by being SO effective as a PURE Archer, that archers in general got nerfed so hard that a PURE Archer build is no longer a viable option. You used to be able to kite and not HAVE to have a melee weapon. Run, spin jump, shoot, run, spin jump, shoot. Can't do that anymore because of the longer delays and reticule going Full Screen Mode if you move.

Congrats Kesh, you made this a game of hybrids.


What should happen is this: Increase overall WPF points it takes to go up 1 skill point, and Increase the amount of WPF gained from Weapon Mastery.


What is NOT being discussed here is that Balanced Hybrids ARE making a sacrifice. We can't 1 hit anyone. Why? We can only put a minimum into strength. A Pure build can have both the Str (DAMAGE) and the WPF speed/accuracy. Hybrids can't. So yes, hybrids have a ranged weapon to plink you with. You have superior strength and health! All it means is that by time you reach that hybrid, they might have taken enough health off you to make it a fair fight, because if not, it goes like this:
Hybrid hits you, You hit Hybrid, Hybrid dies 

[Rumblood]

Really?

ok. with a little help of your friends...

Modified to display my actual build, running with it now:

Level 31 (8 961 000 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 24
Hit points: 50
Converted: 6
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 8
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 5
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 8
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 126
Archery: 140
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

P.S. - At Range, Dedicated Archers own me. I have to move up to mid-range to duel against them. Dedicated 2H'ers own me if I don't put some arrows into them first. It works out.

[Cup1d]

Is this using the proposed wpf system or the current system?

Invaluable tool. Thank to Vargas.
http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm

however 2h+xbow is pretty retarded vs throwing imo

I've seen good 2H+xbow players on eu. Upkeep balancing on the edge, but with effective 6-1 K/D they do money for team.

[Noble Crassius]

Not maxing out primary skills of the build seems rather icky to me, especially shields since everything but the huscarl needs as many shield points as possible in order to not break in 1 hit (which is a huge tradeoff in ability to melee in order to use the craptastic xbow).  The 2h build seems good except not maxing out athletics, but overall much more doable however 2h+xbow is pretty retarded vs throwing imo.

I respectfully disagree. I use a heavy round shield with only 3 shield skill...it rarely breaks and when it does its cuz some one  hit it with an axe 3-4 times..they usually don't get that many strikes =D.

[Keshian]

I dont know if I mentioned it or not, but I just did a 27 str, 9 agi hybrid and got a 100 in throwing and 100 in polearm.  Yes there is a tradeoff of strength to get the extra 30 more in each skill or just go pure 1 skill and get 150 in one skill.  But the difference betweena  player with 130 vs. 150 in a skill is negligible, but the difference betweena  person with 1 vs. 130 is huge.  For fairness sake, wpf should be standardized at a fixed rate so that massive benefits dont accrue only to those doing hybrids.

[ShinySpoons]

I have a two characters as a 3 weapon hybrid. There's at least 100 wpf in each category. It really is a bit silly when I can use nearly every weapon the the field to a competent degree.

[Balton]

I believe the idea with the whole 2.00 patch was to establish hybrids. Prior to hybrids one person on a battlefield generally didn't have much influence over the battle, post-hybrid each player has a chance to have a really dramatic effect. It's exactly the way it was intended to be, as victory has become very important post 2.0.