Author Topic: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization  (Read 11549 times)

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Offline Cup1d

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #105 on: February 03, 2011, 10:21:00 am »
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Technically we have too many oneshot ranged weapons. Throwing without wpf and crossbows without skillpoints. Also, this oneshot weapon have low requirements. You need only 12 str to use heavy throwing axes and 15 str for siege crossbow (highest tier weapon in category). This conditions too attractive for making all-trades characters.

example - Mr Oneshot

Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 56
Converted: 6
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 7
Weapon Master: 6
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 120
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 120
Throwing: 1

long-mid range - crossbow. close range - axes, javelins or jarids. Melee - any pole with 7 ps = devastating weapon. Even shortened spear. Even jarid.

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It's all about "Fucking hell, he can use a ranged attack AND fight in melee?  NERF!".

No. it's all about "Fucking hell, he can ONESHOT me with ranged attack AND fight in melee.
IMHO oneshot ranged weapon must be property of dedicated build.

Offline Ganon

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #106 on: February 03, 2011, 11:21:55 am »
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No, oneshot should only be possible with a headshot.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 11:36:18 am by Ganon »

Offline bruce

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #107 on: February 03, 2011, 11:31:15 am »
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Well, cupid, truth be told upkeep sortof limits this (at least, limits doing this sustainably). For instance a sniper crossbow (anything lower, and only a peasant in a peasant shirt will get oneshot) and a melee weapon plus leather armour is more or less what you can upkeep if you use it every round, with throwing weapons of the oneshot type you'd be overstretching upkeep, at least if you pack multiple stacks.

In general, it's the terrifying damage of throwing which is why there are so many whines (or legitimate complaints, rather), combined with the spammability of the weapons (as long as you have ammo, of course, but given more or less everyone is throwing something, you can often pick it up from the floor anyway). And the worst bit is that it prompts more people to take throwing or another ranged weapon, because the best counter to ranged weapons are exactly ranged weapons, and people feel necessary to have one, after you die for the 1000th time from a throwing something while you're trying to melee and someone just backpedals behind his mates then onehits you while you're engaged. And if he misses, he can fire 1sec after.

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Offline Cup1d

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #108 on: February 03, 2011, 01:39:56 pm »
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well bruce, my equipments cost -  roughly 36000. warbow, 2xbodkin, german greatsword, tunic over mail + mail gauntlets. I make money with this equip. Slow, but profitable.

with Mr Oneshot you can equip - siege xbow + steel bolts, 2xthrowing spears. = 34000. And cheap armor.
Or, you can use heavy axes. Just invest wpp in onehanded and discipline himself not to throw last axe. Even better scenario.

Offline Gorath

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #109 on: February 03, 2011, 06:26:40 pm »
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No. it's all about "Fucking hell, he can ONESHOT me with ranged attack AND fight in melee.
IMHO oneshot ranged weapon must be property of dedicated build.

The only ranged weapons which have ever one-shot me, and I don't use IF at all in any build, are throwing lances (which I've always thought were retarded).  Everything else takes at least 2-shots to bring me from 100%-0%.  This of course doesn't count headshots, but when it comes to headshots it's a damned headshot and should 1-shot you.  I mean, it's a headshot that's what they do.  Boom, headshot.  Railgun to the body, 70% hp loss, headshot to the face, dead.  Pistol to the body, 10%.  Pistol to the face, dead.  That's how headshots work, and how they should continue to work.

Quote from: Kesh
Actually the point of the thread is hybrids have skills committed to more then 1 class, being able to use soemthing at 1 wpf does not make you an effective hybrid.  Buta s it is currently the only real choice is hybrids because wpf is so cheap at low levels compared to high levels. 
Well currently it's a viable choice.  With changes, it would be a retarded choice to ever hybrid instead of simply using the ranged weapon at 1wpf (other than bows).  Hell even currently the payoff for investing 100wpf into throwing or x-bow is negligable compared to just using it at 1 wpf.  Throwing for instance feels like using the force no matter what and willing it to hit the target.  If my 100 wpf in throwing worked like with bows then my war darts would go in the middle of my reticule every shot and the reticule itself would be ALOT tighter (since war darts is = to lower tier bow by comparison).  However this isn't the case.

And still you haven't talked about a double melee hybrid at all.  Everyone keeps skimming over this fact.  Where's the outcries that 1h+polearm hybrids are OP.  Or 1h+2h hybrids.  Or 2h+polearms?  They're still making use of the ability to hybrid, but it keeps getting glossed over.  Or is it people don't care if those guys get fucked as long as ranged hybrids get the shaft?  *punny*
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Offline Heroin

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #110 on: February 03, 2011, 08:18:53 pm »
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The only ranged weapons which have ever one-shot me, and I don't use IF at all in any build, are throwing lances.  Everything else takes at least 2-shots to bring me from 100%-0%.

I got one-shotted in the torso by a heavy throwing axe on a character with full health. I had 21 strength, and was wearing gothic plate with bevor.

For the record, this isn't the norm, but it happened once.
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Offline Engine

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #111 on: February 03, 2011, 08:27:49 pm »
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Didn't read the whole thread.

I do think making a hybrid build now is a no-brainer, since as Kesh said, there's virtually no additional benefit to specializing.

Hmmm, Do I want 6 more 1h WPF, or 100 WPF in my hybrid weapon?

HMMMMM.

Offline Keshian

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2011, 08:29:09 pm »
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And still you haven't talked about a double melee hybrid at all.  Everyone keeps skimming over this fact.  Where's the outcries that 1h+polearm hybrids are OP.  Or 1h+2h hybrids.  Or 2h+polearms?  They're still making use of the ability to hybrid, but it keeps getting glossed over.  Or is it people don't care if those guys get fucked as long as ranged hybrids get the shaft?  *punny*

Its like the double ranged hyrbid, kind of pointless but fun.  If you want to do it go ahead, but it doesnt really make your character anywhere near as versatile and boosted as having high skills in both general classes of ranged and melee.
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Offline Engine

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2011, 11:11:15 pm »
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I'm a dual melee spec, Gorath. Primarily 1h but have about 80 WPF in poles (for lancing and polearm experimenting)... Again, I think the problem isn't that you CAN dual spec, it's that there's no reason to NOT dual spec.

Offline Michael

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2011, 11:21:24 pm »
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People are complaining because their 20-30 extra WPF for specializing in one weapon is not an "I Win" button. Sorry, but Warband is based on skill,

hahahahahaha that sentence alone shows that you are either 11 years old or totally retarded. Skill, lawl. Its a video game where all you have to do is push a button faster than the other guy, what is a lot easier when you have better ping and computer.
Skill, get a life, study medicine or build a house or something, there you need skill, not in this arcade game.


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not character stats.
 50 WPF and an awlpike used with skill can obliterate anything in melee. Having higher stats doesn't give you a right to win against a better player and that's how it should be

Why do you little sucker think you have the right to tell us what is "right"?

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It gives you a minor edge in damage and speed. That's all. If you think that you deserve to win even though you suck, go play EVE or WoW or Aion or something and grind until you've got three Titans and all the purples.

This game is called crpg.
A dedicated melee warrior should have a bit more than a "minor" advantage in melee over a ranged coward noob-spamming his poleaxe/2h.


Quote
The legitimate complaints here are not related to melee combat. If you're losing in melee it is because you are bad at melee and you should feel bad and you need to go practice more melee combat in melee duels on the duel server. MELEE MELEE MELEE until you STOP SUCKING at MELEE.

Okay, now its clear, you are 11 years old and retarded. Stupid stupid stupid.
You have no clue. Not at all.


Quote
My archer gets tons of melee kills with exactly the setup I described above not because I'm great at the game or because the game is imbalanced,

When a dedicated melee loses against a ranger in melee, there are only two options: The ranger is extremly skilled, or the game is not balanced very well. One cant be it, cos if the ranger had some skill in melee, he wouldnt have to play a melee combat game as ranged my old friend, he would play as a melee warrior. So it has to be two.


Quote
but because most people still fail to understand the basic mechanics of the game that got drilled into my head

That happens when lazy parents place their 4-year-old in front of the computer.
Dude, get a life you worthless piece of shit.

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the hard way back in Native, back before you could blame your personal failings on some stats imbalance or on Goretooth's obnoxious black armor.

In native you cant spawn with bow and poleaxe/2h, and thats for a reason.
In hundreds of hours in native I have not lost once, not once, against an archer in melee.
In crpg, every idiot can build an archer who can outspam melee warriors with his huge 2h/polearm plus back-pedal with his high ath, and that all together shouldnt be possible.

Quote
There are issues with ranged combat, but please don't punish hybrid builds

Hybrid builds already have a huge advantage. They can get kills at every map. Dedicated builds have some maps they can shine, others they suck.
In 1 vs 1, on his own ground, the dedicated build should have no problems with defeating the hybrid sucker.
Hybrids are easy-mode.
Especially archery|throwing-2h|polearm-spamming-noobs that dont use their right mouse button on a whole map.

Quote
or this mod will go back down the tubes. You only lose if you fail to block.

In real life I could block throwing lances with my teeth, and your arrows would simply bounce off my iron flesh.
In this arcade game its not possible, unfortunately, so we need to find a balance.

That understanding, there are only two options:

1) The ranged my old friends/ hybrids are only allowed to use a 1h in melee. Lets see how many kills you will get in melee then, when you cant noob-spam your 2h/polearm. Every idiot can be on top of the scoreboard with a 2h/polearm. I cant remember a k d of worse than 3 since my 2h had reached level 20.

2) There must be a major difference in combat between dedicated melees and ranged hybrids.

 


« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 11:29:36 pm by Michael »
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Offline Gorath

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2011, 11:35:20 pm »
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As usual Finished your troll attempt is blatantly obvious, doggedly predictable and lacking any truths whatsoever to make it more engaging.
0/10
Feels like you simply copypastad one of your million copypasta rants from the TW forums yet again.
And I should be nice or polite to anyone.... why exactly?

Offline bruce

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2011, 11:40:13 pm »
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Nice rant finished, except you don't get it.

When a dedicated melee loses against a ranger in melee, there are only two options: The ranger is extremly skilled, or the game is not balanced very well. One cant be it, cos if the ranger had some skill in melee, he wouldnt have to play a melee combat game as ranged my old friend, he would play as a melee warrior. So it has to be two.

BS, because many good meleers are playing ranged (hybrids), or have started playing ranged. Zotte, Chimp, Sawa,... hell, Khorin has an archer. Half of the strategos clans had archer alts.

Because nomatter how good you are at melee, having, say, 75% melee capability and 90% ranged capability beats having 100% melee capability and 0% ranged, or 0% melee and 100% ranged in concept. The biggest issue isn't really how effective are hybrids (because, excuse me, it's far more infuriating to have 3 archers scatter from you and shoot you in the back whenever you turn your back to them, and let's not mention backpedalling throwers, then them pulling out weapons and fighting), but how effective ranged itself is (especially some forms of ranged, and we know what we're talking about here).

Nobody whines about 1h+polearm hybrids, or other melee hybrids. Think about it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 11:42:20 pm by bruce »
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Offline Keshian

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #117 on: February 08, 2011, 05:46:39 pm »
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Bump
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Offline Templar_Ratigan

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Re: Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization
« Reply #118 on: February 15, 2011, 10:52:08 am »
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I get more annoyed with hybrid throwers than anything else, especially those cowering from behind a shield and inch thick armour.

However im mature enought to admit the real problem is really just the popularity of throwing, it's annoying because there is more of it.
Noone really minded that much in patches gone past, even though throwing weapons were actually more powerful by way of being more accurate and could be thrown futher.
After this big patch the weapons are actually a lot slower through the air and are very dodgeable, unless you are a big heavy strength guy then I sympathise.

This was mainly because only a handful ever dedicated themselves to it and they were dedicated throwers, not hybrids. You did get the odd complaint as I recall when I used to play as Templar_Dastikka about how much damage i could do to some people with a jarid, but then again most were fair enough to realise than since id stacked up to 14 powerthrow augmented by strength and using a 40 pierce weapon, not to mention my lack of speed or armour, it balanced out.

However now I do see lots of people using them and ive always been a fair player as I enjoy melee as much as throwing, and im probably a better a melee player than thrower. I will say I can understand the frustrations at being spammed by tons of these things at once, afterall most of us will remember the age of the archer previously and how unbearable that could be.

However the problem is how to balance it without destroying an option for players who wish for something different. I remember sometimes raging at mass archers before, but I also never condoned removing them as an option in terms of playstyle.

Possibly you could lower the damage and accuracy of the heavier throwing weapons like: jarids/spears/lances and especially heavy axes. But would that really stop anyone unless you were to massively reduce the damage to about 1/4 of it's original damage?

Some of the suggestions here have been good, but please remember that this isnt melee and blade anymore than it is bow and throw, so at least, if something is changed, leave it a viable option for those who wish to try it out or enjoy doing it already. This goes for both hybrids and pure throwers.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 10:54:43 am by Templar_Ratigan »
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