Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization

[IG_Saint]

Crap, wrong thread.

[Mouse]

I take it your hybrid ;).  Its not punishing hybrids, but recognizing they got the biggest bonus of any class with the patch and it was a bit excessive.  Balancing the game more will not make it go down the tubes but require more skill.  As of now those hybrids get the benfit of first hitting you with a throwing axe (bolt, arrow, etc.) and then having nearly the same wpf for damage and speed when they move in to duel.  There is no tradeoff for hybridizing and so you win not because you are more skilled but because you have better stats, which is exactly what you are complaining about.

If sliding 50 wpf into polearms with 4PS makes my archer a hybrid, whatever. If you can't win at 150 wpf vs 50 wpf then you need more practice. It sounds to me like people want 200 melee wpf specialists vs 1 melee wpf archers/throwers so they can just spam spam like n00bs without having to block.

My other character is a 1h/shield character with only about 70 wpf into polearms for cav stopping. None of my characters use throwing weapons or crossbows, and I don't have any particular difficulty with people who use ranged weapons against me.

Like I pointed out originally, your real problem is with ranged weapons, so get a shield.

[Keshian]

If sliding 50 wpf into polearms with 4PS makes my archer a hybrid, whatever. If you can't win at 150 wpf vs 50 wpf then you need more practice. It sounds to me like people want 200 melee wpf specialists vs 1 melee wpf archers/throwers so they can just spam spam like n00bs without having to block.

My other character is a 1h/shield character with only about 70 wpf into polearms for cav stopping. None of my characters use throwing weapons or crossbows, and I don't have any particular difficulty with people who use ranged weapons against me.

Like I pointed out originally, your real problem is with ranged weapons, so get a shield.

Just because youa re not taking advantage of the hybrid bonus to make a decent hybrid doeant mean most other people are not.  You could easily have 120 not 50 and it would only have cost you 10-15 more wpf from your main class archery.  So you can shoot people to death and then go melee with almost exacts ame speed/damagea s a pure meleeist.  Or duel pure archers witha lmost exact same damage/draw speed, maybe slower if they use a bow even one power draw level higher then yours.  you get the best of both worlds with no tradeoff.

[Gorath]

Just because youa re not taking advantage of the hybrid bonus to make a decent hybrid doeant mean most other people are not.  You could easily have 120 not 50 and it would only have cost you 10-15 more wpf from your main class archery.  So you can shoot people to death and then go melee with almost exacts ame speed/damagea s a pure meleeist.  Or duel pure archers witha lmost exact same damage/draw speed, maybe slower if they use a bow even one power draw level higher then yours.  you get the best of both worlds with no tradeoff.

Um, no.  The difference between an archer with 150+ wpf and 120 wpf is HUGE.  Rediculously huge.  Almost 150% as fast as the guy with 120.  The big issue here, that you and other nerf-mongers conveniently keep avoiding, is the fact that it's THROWING you have the problem with, not hybrids.  Seriously, you're saying a 1h/2h hybrid (120/130 wpf respectively) is OP?   Really?

[Heroin]

Um, no.  The difference between an archer with 150+ wpf and 120 wpf is HUGE.  Rediculously huge.  Almost 150% as fast as the guy with 120.  The big issue here, that you and other nerf-mongers conveniently keep avoiding, is the fact that it's THROWING you have the problem with, not hybrids.  Seriously, you're saying a 1h/2h hybrid (120/130 wpf respectively) is OP?   Really?

No, it's not OP. And I haven't been fighting to eliminate the ability to go hybrid. I'm arguing for a return of the old wpf costs to make specialists worth doing. You've pointed out several times that I am a specialist, when that isn't the case. Pretty much all of my characters are hybrids, and mostly because being a specialist doesn't really carry any/enough advantage.

With the old wpf costs, hybrids will still be able to have 120/130 wpf. The only difference will be, that instead of 150 wpf, a specialist will have 180. Which is a significant advantage in their chosen field, yes, but it is far from an "I win" button, as people have stated previously.

In this case, they are "buying" a significant advantage at the cost of versatility. As opposed to the current system, where a specialist also gives up versatility, but in exchange gets a relatively insignificant advantage.

[UrLukur]

No, it's not OP. And I haven't been fighting to eliminate the ability to go hybrid. I'm arguing for a return of the old wpf costs to make specialists worth doing. You've pointed out several times that I am a specialist, when that isn't the case. Pretty much all of my characters are hybrids, and mostly because being a specialist doesn't really carry any/enough advantage.

With the old wpf costs, hybrids will still be able to have 120/130 wpf. The only difference will be, that instead of 150 wpf, a specialist will have 180. Which is a significant advantage in their chosen field, yes, but it is far from an "I win" button, as people have stated previously.

In this case, they are "buying" a significant advantage at the cost of versatility. As opposed to the current system, where a specialist also gives up versatility, but in exchange gets a relatively insignificant advantage.

It is 'I win button', as long as crush exist.

[bruce]

Bullshit, Heroin.

The buff pures is crap, because pures don't need a buff, and the super-wpf got nerfed for (good) reason.

And anyway it'd do NOTHING to combat hybrids, because you can still use eg. throwing weapons with 0 wpf, while having essentially the wpf of a pure char.

[Gorath]

No, it's not OP. And I haven't been fighting to eliminate the ability to go hybrid. I'm arguing for a return of the old wpf costs to make specialists worth doing. You've pointed out several times that I am a specialist, when that isn't the case. Pretty much all of my characters are hybrids, and mostly because being a specialist doesn't really carry any/enough advantage. 

I never said you were a specialist, but a nerf-monger ( I like that word ).     Most of the time if there's a random "you" in my post it's a generic "you" meant to group everyone on the other side of the debate rather than specific people.  In the last post the you was simply to apply the nerf-monger term.     (Debated between nerf-meister, nerf-warrior, and nerfinator but felt nerf-monger was the least lame)

With the old wpf costs, hybrids will still be able to have 120/130 wpf. The only difference will be, that instead of 150 wpf, a specialist will have 180. Which is a significant advantage in their chosen field, yes, but it is far from an "I win" button, as people have stated previously.   

Well that's quite a bit different than the previous suggestions where hybrids would only end up with like 90 in each profession, or 100 in one and 70 in the other.  I wouldn't mind the old system either as it would actually buff my hybrid quite a bit where instead of 150/100 at 31 I could have 150/120+ ish like pre-patch, or 130/130, etc.  I'm all for that.  Pre-patch values would be quite nice as previously my 2h/thrower was at 150/130 by level 31 using the same skill-point allocation.

In this case, they are "buying" a significant advantage at the cost of versatility. As opposed to the current system, where a specialist also gives up versatility, but in exchange gets a relatively insignificant advantage.

Using the pre-patch system I'm fine with this idea, as long as 200+wpf isn't obtainable as that is where a good many issues started to occur.  Though I have to say that currently a 'pure'/'specialist' character can achieve 173 wpf by level 30 already, which is already close to your target goal of 180.

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 16
Agility: 24
Hit points: 51

Converted: 10
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 8
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 8

One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 173
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

That's already a decent advantage for the points.  Much faster, both in movement AND swing speed while still being able to use all of the most common deadly weapons and armors.

[Cup1d]

Dont work with high tier bows.

Yes, you can do char with 3 athletic, but it hopeless in any archer duel

[Heroin]

1 - the super-wpf got nerfed for (good) reason.

2 -And anyway it'd do NOTHING to combat hybrids

1 - Yes, you're right. "Super" wpf got nerfed with good reason. It was nerfed in 3 different ways, in fact. I'm only asking to revert ONE of the ways it got nerfed, not all 3.

2 - It would combat hybrids by giving people a CHOICE in which going specialist was attractive. Specialist builds currently are NOT attractive.

I understand you don't want a return to the old days when people were lightning fast, and one-shotted everything they touched. That won't happen, Bruce. As long as you understand how small the change I'm promoting really is, you will see that.

Here are a couple facts for you:

#1, pre-patch, most big-name players were levelled into the late 30's or early 40's. Won't happen any more.
#2, pre-patch, many who were NOT incredibly high level had a HUGE wpf bonus from retirement. No longer possible.

With the above-listed changes, the old wpf system would work fine. Take some time, and think about it clearly. I'm sure you'll see my point.

[Gorath]

Dont work with high tier bows.

Yes, you can do char with 3 athletic, but it hopeless in any archer duel

wut?
That wasn't an archer build, and archers are hybrids anyways by nature.  Until you remove the ability for them to pick up and swing a melee weapon they are, and always will be, hybrids.  Regardless of build design.

[Heroin]

Using the pre-patch system I'm fine with this idea, as long as 200+wpf isn't obtainable as that is where a good many issues started to occur.

Using the old costs, 200 wpf IS attainable, but you give up a LOT to get there, since you won't have much STR/PS. If I recall correctly, the specific number where your attack speed actually became faster than the animation was at approximately 260 wpf. Since that is the point at which the game becomes "broken", it would make sense to simply not allow wpf to reach to, or beyond that number.

Under the old system, you needed 13 WM at level 32 in order to get to that point(nearly unattainable on any character that isn't a joke). I wouldn't be opposed to a tweak that stopped that from happening, though. Perhaps cap WM at 10 or something.

[Cup1d]

wut?
That wasn't an archer build, and archers are hybrids anyways by nature.  Until you remove the ability for them to pick up and swing a melee weapon they are, and always will be, hybrids.  Regardless of build design.

You can use all weapon with str requirement without investing wpf. 2h, 1h, pole, xbows. Does it mean you are hybrid in all this proficiences?

[Gorath]

You can use all weapon with str requirement without investing wpf. 2h, 1h, pole, xbows. Does it mean you are hybrid in all this proficiences?

Technically.  However for the sake of what everyone is cryi... I mean discussing about, hybrids are anyone with ranged AND melee capability... nevermind the fact that any 'pure' build can just tack on an x-bow with 0 wpf and achieve the same thing.  As I've pointed out, not a single person has made any mention to "OMG, 1h/polearm hybrids are SO OP".  It's all about "Fucking hell, he can use a ranged attack AND fight in melee?  NERF!".  So for the sake of this new whine trend, a hybrid is classified as anyone that can make use of melee + ranged, and more specifically throwing.

Logically this would say that throwing itself is the problem, but hey we're all going to keep ignoring that fact too.   

[Keshian]

Actually the point of the thread is hybrids have skills committed to more then 1 class, being able to use soemthing at 1 wpf does not make you an effective hybrid.  Buta s it is currently the only real choice is hybrids because wpf is so cheap at low levels compared to high levels.