Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization

[Leshma]

Hybrids are fun, so called pure classes are boring to play. People who went "pure" before the patch and now (using clearly broken str barmace and 10-12 PT thrower builds) are minmaxers or powergamers. Whole point of .200 patch was to reduce those and force them to play for fun like everyone else does. If you want to PWN based only on your build please find another game/mod to play.

On minmaxing:

   
A role-playing game player who forgoes making a well-rounded character to make an uber-powerful combat monster. Frequently a player with low self-esteem who is intent on making their character 'better' than the others.

Just don't forget that before the big patch, person who started this thread played the god given archer class (there was never anything more broken than archery before 0.2 patch) and after patch farmed XP and gold for hours on EU servers

[Cup1d]

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 15
Agility: 27
Hit points: 50
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 0
Riding: 6
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 120
Polearm: 120
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 120
Throwing: 1

equip
palfrey 10201
or courser - 9900
Light Crossbow - 5112
Bolts - 161
Light Lance - 1910
Studded Warclub - 2854
or Shortened Military Scythe - 1563
Scale Armor - 4527
_____________________
23374

Three way hybrid for open map dominance. upkeepable with X1 modifier.
Damn fast coucher. Can use any horse on battlefield. Still fast enough on foot (27 agi boost). Killer of enemy horses (crossbow reloadable on horse\light lance) Crowd shooter (crossbow). Crushtrough\knockdown twohander usable on horse. Crushtrough\knockdown 96 speed twohander with real 110 speed (27 agi boost - not bad for spamming only or for dedicated killing) on foot.

paper\stone\scissor system damager.

[EponiCo]

Hmm, you pretty much describe my last build prepatch, except that I was lower in level.

Let's go through this:
Studded Warclub is no spam weapon, especially with split wpf. Compare to 102 speed katana with 182 wpf. The katana will do more damage to medium armor. A little longer, usuable with shield on horseback, and affordable by just dropping your crossbow. Oh, when you meet someone in full plate the warclub won't bounce where the katana does, but that's a rare occurance nowadays.
Studded Warclub is no crushthrough weapon. Never had any crushthrough with it neither on horse nor on foot. Why not go with the barmace and 182 wpf (regarding damage that's about 1.5 ps, and should neatly cover the speed difference) instead? Dropping the light lance should cover the difference. I don't know though, on foot this might not be enough to crushthrough often.
 
Still maybe focussing on pole is better, since short weapon bumpslash without shield from a weak horse...
Let's see, couched lance without wpf ... oneshot kill. Or why not take heavy lance for way better chances in a joust, 182 pole wpf, and a hafted blade for foot combat and bumpslashing? Heck, leave the crossbow away and you can even squeeze in a shield when there's archers around.

Lastly, I think a horse crossbowman wastes wpf when he doesn't take horse archery. I could be wrong on that, though.
    * Strength: 15
    * Agility: 24
    * Hit points: 50

    * Converted: 8
    * Power Strike: 5
    * Riding: 6
    * Horse Archery: 4
    * Weapon Master: 8

    * Polearm: 120
    * Crossbow: 145

So all in all, imo that's several options to get a way more effective build, by not hybridizing all over the place. Heirlooming also favors taking a pure build with a good weapon, instead of having to split modifiers over weaker weapons in several fields. Sure, a well made hybrid gets a lot from his versatility, but given the constraints of skill points, wpf and upkeep, he always pays a price.
If there is too much incentive to pick up a weapon as secondary, then maybe there is something wrong with the weapon?

[Gorath]

It really is a bit silly when I can use nearly every weapon the the field to a competent degree.

lol, I dunno I like that.  Hell I did run that 4 weapon hybrid pre-patch.  It's part of why I have so many alts now.  I hate being pigeon holed.  Sometimes I wanna swing my man cleaver and 2h it up ez style.  Other times I want to polearm, 1her, throw, shoot, ride, hoplite, etc.  I guess it really depends on if you like hybrids or not in the end.  To me "pures" seem silly and illogical, not how a serious soldier would ever be trained.  Versatility is key;  Learn to shoot, and utilize hand to hand.  Learn a standing AND ground game (MMA). 

[Rumblood]

The reason there are hybrids is cavalry (and HA). You don't otherwise need a ranged item, as archers can no longer kite. But with horses everywhere that won't get within pikes range, you have to have something to throw at them, plain and simple. 

[Keshian]

Hybrids are fun, so called pure classes are boring to play. Whole point of .200 patch was to reduce those and force them to play for fun like everyone else does.

On minmaxing:
Just don't forget that before the big patch, person who started this thread played the god given archer class (there was never anything more broken than archery before 0.2 patch) and after patch farmed XP and gold for hours on EU servers

Wow, that is short-sighted.  Only people that like playing hybrids like to play for fun.  Come on.  Many of us enjoy specializing, but post-patch get a sever penalty (or hyrbids get huge bonus depending on perspective) to wpf.  Just trying to make it fair to all people who play for fun.  Reallya rrogant to say that people who dont like playing hybrids dont play for fun.

Where are you coming up with this, I have not been farming.  I have played EU servers to keep my strategus skills intact as most battles are still EU, which requires totally different sense of timing with high ping.  Stop making random accusations like that.

[bruce]

Ehem.

Boosting pure builds leads to returning many of the imbalances of the pre-patch CRPG.

[Keshian]

Ehem.

Boosting pure builds leads to returning many of the imbalances of the pre-patch CRPG.

Its not boosting pure builds as they still would end up amxing out at 140-150 wpf like now.  But it would be rebalancing hyrbids so that real tradeoffs would have to be made to be a hybrid rather than just an easy no-brainer choice as you get 120 wpf in separate class for the price of 20 wpf in your main class.  Not  apure class bonus, but a removal of a game imbalance favoring melee/ranged hybrids.

[Rumblood]

Its not boosting pure builds as they still would end up amxing out at 140-150 wpf like now.  But it would be rebalancing hyrbids so that real tradeoffs would have to be made to be a hybrid rather than just an easy no-brainer choice as you get 120 wpf in separate class for the price of 20 wpf in your main class.  Not  apure class bonus, but a removal of a game imbalance favoring melee/ranged hybrids.

Now, now. You can only say it favors hybrids when you cheat. When a pure 2H comes up against a hybrid 2H'er, the balance is completely in favor of the Pure build. The hybrid is gimp in comparison for a number of reasons, and for more than just a speed difference. You just don't feel like the difference is great enough compensation for that weapon with a different range of weapon than your primary. How about this fix?

IF count(collection) (select where WPF > 1) = 1, then effective WPF = WPF + 25 where WPF > 1
ELSE nothing happens.

[owens]

I retired a character before the new patch it was a 2H character, i found it frustrating as a new player to be quickly beaten down, cut down or shot. This was a specialized character since the mod i now use a polearm character with around 130 wpf is polearm 56 in 2H and 17 in throwing which is more than enough (no accuracy anyway ). Polearms are intimidating and come with all sorts of damage and throwing is easy and effective until throwing is nerfed a "specialized" character isnt really neccesary.

[Thomek]

I think the discussion is a bit too polarized.

Should not be flat rate vs aggressive escalation like we have now.

* Flat rate is bad, because levels have too hard impact, and it would leave hybrids useless
* Too aggressive wpf "cap" leads to hybrids that become way more economical wpf-wise than pure chars

Solution:

* Soften the wpf penalty a little. It's too aggressive atm. (Don't make it near-flat however! Just the right amount. Perhaps nerf the amount of wpf gained accordingly so we don't have physics-bending 200 wpf 2 handers. Currently my AGI 27 char can get exactly 180wpf in 1 weapontype. I think that's enough, since I've played with a 210 wpf char.. it's just unfair and insane, approaching the limit of netcode. )

* Remove accuracy gain from Powerthrow. Something is wrong with the fact that in order to gain accuracy i.ex with throwing knives, you need 6-7 pthrow, not invest 120 or even 160 wpf in it.

Powerthrow adds:
1. Unlocks new and more powerful weapons
2. Adds weapon speed
3. Adds accuracy for all throwing weapons (under the required pthrow)
4. Adds damage

It's way way too powerful. Imagine powerstrike adding speed + damage + handling..

* Make throwing wpf more effective. (It doesn't add much accuracy atm.. Pthrow adds loads and loads more. Throwing wpf is a near-waste of wpf.)

[Mouse]

People are complaining because their 20-30 extra WPF for specializing in one weapon is not an "I Win" button. Sorry, but Warband is based on skill, not character stats. 50 WPF and an awlpike used with skill can obliterate anything in melee. Having higher stats doesn't give you a right to win against a better player and that's how it should be  It gives you a minor edge in damage and speed. That's all. If you think that you deserve to win even though you suck, go play EVE or WoW or Aion or something and grind until you've got three Titans and all the purples.

The legitimate complaints here are not related to melee combat. If you're losing in melee it is because you are bad at melee and you should feel bad and you need to go practice more melee combat in melee duels on the duel server. MELEE MELEE MELEE until you STOP SUCKING at MELEE. My archer gets tons of melee kills with exactly the setup I described above not because I'm great at the game or because the game is imbalanced, but because most people still fail to understand the basic mechanics of the game that got drilled into my head the hard way back in Native, back before you could blame your personal failings on some stats imbalance or on Goretooth's obnoxious black armor.

There are issues with ranged combat, but please don't punish hybrid builds or this mod will go back down the tubes. You only lose if you fail to block.

[Ganon]

People are complaining because their 20-30 extra WPF for specializing in one weapon is not an "I Win" button. Sorry, but Warband is based on skill, not character stats. 50 WPF and an awlpike used with skill can obliterate anything in melee. Having higher stats doesn't give you a right to win against a better player and that's how it should be  It gives you a minor edge in damage and speed. That's all. If you think that you deserve to win even though you suck, go play EVE or WoW or Aion or something and grind until you've got three Titans and all the purples.

The legitimate complaints here are not related to melee combat. If you're losing in melee it is because you are bad at melee and you should feel bad and you need to go practice more melee combat in melee duels on the duel server. MELEE MELEE MELEE until you STOP SUCKING at MELEE. My archer gets tons of melee kills with exactly the setup I described above not because I'm great at the game or because the game is imbalanced, but because most people still fail to understand the basic mechanics of the game that got drilled into my head the hard way back in Native, back before you could blame your personal failings on some stats imbalance or on Goretooth's obnoxious black armor.

There are issues with ranged combat, but please don't punish hybrid builds or this mod will go back down the tubes. You only lose if you fail to block.

Player skill has nothing to do with game balance. Always assume the hybrid and the specialized character you compare are of equal player skill, or you're not talking about balance at all but about the possibility that a hybrid can kill a specialized melee character in melee, if the player is better. Of course that's possible, that's not the topic being discussed.

[Mouse]

Player skill has nothing to do with game balance. Always assume the hybrid and the specialized character you compare are of equal player skill, or you're not talking about balance at all but about the possibility that a hybrid can kill a specialized melee character in melee, if the player is better. Of course that's possible, that's not the topic being discussed.

And don't assume I haven't thought things through. Warband works in such a way that a specialized character (200 wpf) and a peasant character (1 wpf) which exhibit perfect play in melee combat will be locked in an eternal struggle. Only imperfect play will ever allow for an outcome to be reached.

[Brutal]

It seems ever since the patch hit with its rapidly increasing cost of wpf after 100 wpf, there has been a massive influx of hybrid builds, which means in most cases ranged/melee hybrid.  Specialists in one field receive very little increased benefit (20-30 in main class more wpf = 100 in hybrid class) and so even more then pre-patch almost every person playing has some ranged weaponry (mostly throwing nowadays until its nerfed).

Perfect lets keep it that way.

But the main purpose is to rebalance between specializing skills and hybridizing skills

Why should everybody specialize in only one class to be competitive, why ???

You still get an advantage from being specialized you're just not goldlike anymore compared to hybrid.
A lot of people still specialized but there is now more hybrid than pre-patch.
Sound a lot more balanced than pre-patch were almost every melee was specialized and had a xbow with 0 wpf.

Also I think it greatly contributed at reducing cav efficiency as you can't ride in the middle of enemy crowd anymore without being shot down.

OP seem to dislike hybrid thrower for some reason but those guys are not the one with 10-12 PT, they 're not Overpowered.(even if im not so sure str thrower are overpowered)
Of course hybrid thrower are not defenseless against archer and HA like pure melee, wait do i see some sort of a pattern here...