Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization

[Heroin]

I think they should just put WPF costs back to what they were before the patch. The main problem prior to the patch wasn't with people who got high WM and invested a lot of points in WPF. The problem before was generation 15 people at level 42, with 6+ powerstrike and 250 wpf from retirement wpf bonus.

Since they took the retirement wpf exploit away, and created a softcap/hardcap for levels, I think making wpf more expensive was unnecessary overkill, and only serves to make specializing much less attractive. When the difference is only 20-30 additional wpf for being a specialist, it doesn't make sense to NOT be a hybrid.

I apologize if I repeated anything in this thread already. I could only be bothered to read the first page of replies.

ADHD Version: I think simply reverting wpf costs back to pre-patch levels would assist in cutting down on the hybrid builds, and make specialists worth considering again.

[Keshian]

People are complaining because their 20-30 extra WPF for specializing in one weapon is not an "I Win" button. Sorry, but Warband is based on skill, not character stats. 50 WPF and an awlpike used with skill can obliterate anything in melee. Having higher stats doesn't give you a right to win against a better player and that's how it should be  It gives you a minor edge in damage and speed. That's all. If you think that you deserve to win even though you suck, go play EVE or WoW or Aion or something and grind until you've got three Titans and all the purples.

The legitimate complaints here are not related to melee combat. If you're losing in melee it is because you are bad at melee and you should feel bad and you need to go practice more melee combat in melee duels on the duel server. MELEE MELEE MELEE until you STOP SUCKING at MELEE. My archer gets tons of melee kills with exactly the setup I described above not because I'm great at the game or because the game is imbalanced, but because most people still fail to understand the basic mechanics of the game that got drilled into my head the hard way back in Native, back before you could blame your personal failings on some stats imbalance or on Goretooth's obnoxious black armor.

There are issues with ranged combat, but please don't punish hybrid builds or this mod will go back down the tubes. You only lose if you fail to block.

I take it your hybrid ;).  Its not punishing hybrids, but recognizing they got the biggest bonus of any class with the patch and it was a bit excessive.  Balancing the game more will not make it go down the tubes but require more skill.  As of now those hybrids get the benfit of first hitting you with a throwing axe (bolt, arrow, etc.) and then having nearly the same wpf for damage and speed when they move in to duel.  There is no tradeoff for hybridizing and so you win not because you are more skilled but because you have better stats, which is exactly what you are complaining about.

[Keshian]

I think they should just put WPF costs back to what they were before the patch. The main problem prior to the patch wasn't with people who got high WM and invested a lot of points in WPF. The problem before was generation 15 people at level 42, with 6+ powerstrike and 250 wpf from retirement wpf bonus.

Since they took the retirement wpf exploit away, and created a softcap/hardcap for levels, I think making wpf more expensive was unnecessary overkill, and only serves to make specializing much less attractive. When the difference is only 20-30 additional wpf for being a specialist, it doesn't make sense to NOT be a hybrid.

I apologize if I repeated anything in this thread already. I could only be bothered to read the first page of replies.

ADHD Version: I think simply reverting wpf costs back to pre-patch levels would assist in cutting down on the hybrid builds, and make specialists worth considering again.

+1 .  Level cap and retirement wpf removal solved all the problems with excessive wpf.  Wpf soft cap has created more problems then its solved.

[Punisher]

I think they should just put WPF costs back to what they were before the patch. The main problem prior to the patch wasn't with people who got high WM and invested a lot of points in WPF. The problem before was generation 15 people at level 42, with 6+ powerstrike and 250 wpf from retirement wpf bonus.

Since they took the retirement wpf exploit away, and created a softcap/hardcap for levels, I think making wpf more expensive was unnecessary overkill, and only serves to make specializing much less attractive. When the difference is only 20-30 additional wpf for being a specialist, it doesn't make sense to NOT be a hybrid.

I apologize if I repeated anything in this thread already. I could only be bothered to read the first page of replies.

ADHD Version: I think simply reverting wpf costs back to pre-patch levels would assist in cutting down on the hybrid builds, and make specialists worth considering again.

I agree, with lvl 31 cap and no more retirement WPF people who want high WPF will have to trade it for low strenght, and we will have competitive specialists builds (today there is no point to go above 150 WPF) and not everyone will be a str/throwing build.

[Camaris]

The easiest solution would be:

Add to every ranged weapon added as secondary weapon:  -1 powerstrike
Add to every 2h/polearm added as secondary weapon: -1 athletics
Add to every shield not used with 1h as primary: -1 athletics

You got 4 slots to equip:
1 Primary slots
2-4 Slot: Secondary slots

=> If you only cary few things you stay as you are, if you carry a lot (and different things) you will get penaltys.
You only get nerfed if you equip it.

Perhaps its hard to understand but i tried my best to explain my idea ;)

[Heroin]

The easiest solution would be:

Add to every ranged weapon added as secondary weapon:  -1 powerstrike
Add to every 2h/polearm added as secondary weapon: -1 athletics
Add to every shield not used with 1h as primary: -1 athletics

You got 4 slots to equip:
1 Primary slots
2-4 Slot: Secondary slots

=> If you only cary few things you stay as you are, if you carry a lot (and different things) you will get penaltys.
You only get nerfed if you equip it.

Perhaps its hard to understand but i tried my best to explain my idea ;)

I don't support this. I don't support penalizing hybrids. Going hybrid should be a valid option with no penalties, only tradeoffs. Currently, there is no tradeoff at all. 20 wpf is laughable, and not even noticeable in combat.

Again, I think many of our current issues will be solved simply by making specialists worth considering again, by reverting wpf costs back to what they used to be.

[bruce]

I don't support this. I don't support penalizing hybrids. Going hybrid should be a valid option with no penalties, only tradeoffs. Currently, there is no tradeoff at all. 20 wpf is laughable, and not even noticeable in combat.

Having X points less and Y cheaper gear is noticeable in combat. Perhaps if some things are too popular to hybridize into, it might be because they're too good in themselves, or too cheap.

For instance, did you notice how the popularity of crossbow hybrids went down then crossbow prices rose to more or less ensure that anyone with a sniper won't be rolling around with a top notch melee weapon and good armour, too?

[EponiCo]

I think they should just put WPF costs back to what they were before the patch. The main problem prior to the patch wasn't with people who got high WM and invested a lot of points in WPF. The problem before was generation 15 people at level 42, with 6+ powerstrike and 250 wpf from retirement wpf bonus.

Since they took the retirement wpf exploit away, and created a softcap/hardcap for levels, I think making wpf more expensive was unnecessary overkill, and only serves to make specializing much less attractive. When the difference is only 20-30 additional wpf for being a specialist, it doesn't make sense to NOT be a hybrid.

I apologize if I repeated anything in this thread already. I could only be bothered to read the first page of replies.

ADHD Version: I think simply reverting wpf costs back to pre-patch levels would assist in cutting down on the hybrid builds, and make specialists worth considering again.

Once again, 20-30 additional wpf isn't the only difference. If you see no reason to NOT pick up bow wpf, go ahead. Try to shoot without power draw.
Btw. WPF splitting was perfectly possible in the old system, too. If you don't believe my values go search for Poul2's character builder on the taleworlds forum for the old system, Vargas' char builder for the new system can be found at http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm.

Pure 2h old system:

(click to show/hide)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    * Strength: 15
    * Agility: 24
    * Hit points: 54

    * Converted: 8
    * Ironflesh: 2
    * Power Strike: 5
    * Shield: 0
    * Athletics: 8
    * Riding: 0
    * Horse Archery: 0
    * Power Draw: 0
    * Power Throw: 0
    * Weapon Master: 8

    * One Handed: 1
    * Two Handed: 201
    * Polearm: 1
    * Archery: 1
    * Crossbow: 1
    * Throwing: 1

2h/Crossbow hybrid old system

(click to show/hide)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    * Strength: 15
    * Agility: 24
    * Hit points: 54

    * Converted: 8
    * Ironflesh: 2
    * Power Strike: 5
    * Shield: 0
    * Athletics: 8
    * Riding: 0
    * Horse Archery: 0
    * Power Draw: 0
    * Power Throw: 0
    * Weapon Master: 8

    * One Handed: 166
    * Two Handed: 1
    * Polearm: 1
    * Archery: 1
    * Crossbow: 121
    * Throwing: 1

Pure 2h new system:

(click to show/hide)

    * Strength: 15
    * Agility: 24
    * Hit points: 54

    * Converted: 8
    * Ironflesh: 2
    * Power Strike: 5
    * Shield: 0
    * Athletics: 8
    * Riding: 0
    * Horse Archery: 0
    * Power Draw: 0
    * Power Throw: 0
    * Weapon Master: 8

    * One Handed: 173
    * Two Handed: 1
    * Polearm: 1
    * Archery: 1
    * Crossbow: 1
    * Throwing: 1

2h/crossbow hybrid new system:

(click to show/hide)

    * Strength: 15
    * Agility: 24
    * Hit points: 54

    * Converted: 8
    * Ironflesh: 2
    * Power Strike: 5
    * Shield: 0
    * Athletics: 8
    * Riding: 0
    * Horse Archery: 0
    * Power Draw: 0
    * Power Throw: 0
    * Weapon Master: 8

    * One Handed: 145
    * Two Handed: 1
    * Polearm: 1
    * Archery: 1
    * Crossbow: 120
    * Throwing: 1

Comparison:
In the old system the hybrid looses 35 wpf from his main and is at 82%, from his secondary he looses 80 wpf and is at 60% of max wpf.
In the new system he looses 28wpf from his main and is at 83%, from his secondary he looses 53 wpf and is at 69% of max wpf.
So, ok, that's the difference of 7, respectively 27 wpf, which according to your own statement is laughable.

But like bruce says, in the new system you also have to look at the price tag. In the old system the hybrid would just stack 2 snipers, steel bolts, tears and plate. (Eh, most people took sniper with them at 1 wpf...  )
In the new system the hybrid would just take one sniper and normal bolts, and will still have 18k less to spend on his melee gear.
This translates into weaker armor and/or heavier armor (armor wpf penalty...) and/or worse weapons (if you can find a weapon that is cheaper yet more effective, that's entire a problem of balance inside the category). Tradeoff is very much there (and I don't see anyone picking up a crossbow just for a few cheap shots).

[EponiCo]

*Deleted*

[Gorath]

Currently, there is no tradeoff at all. 20 wpf is laughable, and not even noticeable in combat.

Well I suppose everyone is entitled to their feelings.  20 wpf is fucking huge man.  That's another 2 ranks in WM just to get those 20 points.  Specialists shouldn't recieve overwhelming advantages to specializing, sorry.  I don't agree with that.  I feel it's fine now.  Specialists have an advantage in their chosen field (cheaper gear loadout, more WPF, greater speed/damage, more available skill and stat points).  That's quite a bit and asking for more is just a case of wanting your build to carry you.  Sorry that you made a poor tactical error by limiting your options in combat.  Ideally the smartest player would have melee, ranged AND cav capability.  You can pick up an xbow without any cost investment and be a hybrid too.  Specialists have always been a poor tactical decision for the battlefield, except that pre-patch they were capable of breaking mechanics/animations and utilizing a 1-shot kill sniper x-bow with 0 investment.  Now the sniper might take 2 hits.  Wah, poor specialists...

Seriously if less gear, higher attainable wpf for less investment, greater speed/damage potential from build, and more available skill and stat points aren't enough of a benefit to specialists then something is seriously wrong with specialists players.  Sorry that it isn't an I-win button I guess.

[Keshian]

Well I suppose everyone is entitled to their feelings.  20 wpf is fucking huge man.  That's another 2 ranks in WM just to get those 20 points.  Specialists shouldn't recieve overwhelming advantages to specializing, sorry.  I don't agree with that.  I feel it's fine now.  Specialists have an advantage in their chosen field (cheaper gear loadout, more WPF, greater speed/damage, more available skill and stat points).  That's quite a bit and asking for more is just a case of wanting your build to carry you.  Sorry that you made a poor tactical error by limiting your options in combat.  Ideally the smartest player would have melee, ranged AND cav capability.  You can pick up an xbow without any cost investment and be a hybrid too.  Specialists have always been a poor tactical decision for the battlefield, except that pre-patch they were capable of breaking mechanics/animations and utilizing a 1-shot kill sniper x-bow with 0 investment.  Now the sniper might take 2 hits.  Wah, poor specialists...

Seriously if less gear, higher attainable wpf for less investment, greater speed/damage potential from build, and more available skill and stat points aren't enough of a benefit to specialists then something is seriously wrong with specialists players.  Sorry that it isn't an I-win button I guess.

But thats exactly the point, hybrids have become an I-win button, we are asking for more game balance through having real tradeoffs like before to be a hyrbid.  As it is now you just put 120 points into throwing or archery or xbow and you have accuracy almost as good as a pure ranged at the cost of only 20 wpf in your main class so you still have almost the exact same speed and damage as a pure meleeist as well.  How is that not an overwhelming advantage without tradeoffs.  The proof is in the pudding, 80-90% of people on servers now are hybrids with a crapload of melee/ranged hybrids.  Why?  Because the system has become imbalanced toward a particular character setup and to remain competitive most people have to emulate or lose to the people who took the I-win class.

[Gorath]

But thats exactly the point, hybrids have become an I-win button

How is it an I-win button?  They have to be good at melee and ranged, and they're sub-par to both of those respective "pure" builds when fighting in those specific roles.

we are asking for more game balance through having real tradeoffs like before to be a hyrbid. 

What tradeoffs were there before?  I was a 4 weapon hybrid before, all of them over 100 wpf.  Pre-patch it was MUCH easier to be a hybrid.  The only thing that's changed from before is that a "pure" character can't achieve game-breaking levels of wpf/agi combinations.  Hell, before the game was a matter of 40% archers with rediculous sniper-like accuracy, machine gun rates of fire, railgun deadly arrows with a cookies sword, 40% tin-can wearing lolsword user with animation breaking attack speed and a 1 wpf sniper x-bow or two that one shot everyone, and 10% other people.

As it is now you just put 120 points into throwing or archery or xbow and you have accuracy almost as good as a pure ranged at the cost of only 20 wpf in your main class so you still have almost the exact same speed and damage as a pure meleeist as well. 

Almost as good, and almost the same.  That's the tradeoff.  You have to compensate through better gameplay.  The benefit is versatility on the field.  Which makes more logical sense than someone specializing in only one field.  Look at the melee classes in Native for example.  Equip 2her/polearm in slot 1, equip 3x whatever thrown weapon was available in slots 2-4.  Hybrid, with no drawbacks at all compared to someone that only equipped the 2her but not the throwing weapons.  That's how I played in Native as well;  2h + 3x thrown weapons.  It's silly to limit yourself to only one type of combat and isn't realistic at all (yes I know everyone hates realism arguments)

How is that not an overwhelming advantage without tradeoffs. 

There are tradeoffs, you mentioned them you're just ignoring them or writing them off as insignificant.  Which I disagree with.  The ability to get 150 wpf in my weapon while using less points in WM (why put more points in there beyond 150 when I can spend them elsewhere) have a cheaper loadout, have 3-6 MORE stat points is fucking huge and I definately notice it when fighting pure builders.  They're faster, hit harder and typically have better armor than I do.

The proof is in the pudding, 80-90% of people on servers now are hybrids with a crapload of melee/ranged hybrids.  Why?  Because the system has become imbalanced toward a particular character setup and to remain competitive most people have to emulate or lose to the people who took the I-win class.

All I notice are more throwers instead of archers.  Otherwise I see it exactly the same as before.  I'm sorry but every archer pre-patch who was supposedly "pure" had either a 2her or polearm with the benefit of high str and high agility.  They were hybrids.  Every "pure" melee had a sniper x-bow with 1 wpf which was highly accurate and 1-shot everyone.  They were hybrids with no drawback.  The current system is much better in that you actually see a benefit for being a "real" hybrid instead of a supposed "pure" build which was really just a hybrid that exploited crappy mechanics because they could break the system in some manner.

For example:  Pre patch my 2her had
150/120  2h/throwing wpf respectively.
I would fight against "pures" who had 200+ wpf, higher agi because of a lessened point cost than I had and could break animations in melee or pull out their sniper x-bow and 1-shot me if they felt like it.
Now he has
140/100 2h/throwing wpf respectively.  He actually got WORSE because of the patch.  However those "pures" can no longer break animations in melee and have stopped carrying 1-shot sniper xbows with 1 wpf (by their own choice, you can still carry a sniper x-bow with 1 wpf and 2 shot people, or 1-shot an injured person).  Now I can actually have a fight with them purely because they aren't capable of breaking parts of the game.  They still have higher wpf and stats than I do, but it's in the realm of sanity instead of being flat out broken.  Perhaps "pure" builds just need to adapt and re-learn how to build their character within the realm of reason rather than pigning for the days of having an "I-win cause I broke the game" character stats to back up their play.

[IG_Saint]

It's silly to limit yourself to only one type of combat and isn't realistic at all (yes I know everyone hates realism arguments)

For example:  Pre patch my 2her had
150/120  2h/throwing wpf respectively.
I would fight against "pures" who had 200+ wpf, higher agi because of a lessened point cost than I had and could break animations in melee or pull out their sniper x-bow and 1-shot me if they felt like it.
Now he has
140/100 2h/throwing wpf respectively.  He actually got WORSE because of the patch.  However those "pures" can no longer break animations in melee and have stopped carrying 1-shot sniper xbows with 1 wpf (by their own choice, you can still carry a sniper x-bow with 1 wpf and 2 shot people, or 1-shot an injured person).  Now I can actually have a fight with them purely because they aren't capable of breaking parts of the game.  They still have higher wpf and stats than I do, but it's in the realm of sanity instead of being flat out broken.  Perhaps "pure" builds just need to adapt and re-learn how to build their character within the realm of reason rather than pigning for the days of having an "I-win cause I broke the game" character stats to back up their play.

Wait how are hybrids more realistic? Yes an archer or crossbow man would carry a melee weapon, but they weren't trained in them. And the men at arms weren't trained in ranged weapons, because they weren't noble weapons, they could probably shoot a bow just from hunting experience but they wouldnt use them in combat.

On topic the problem isn't really hybrids, its just that hybrids are far beter than pures. A pure melee has 165 wpf, a minor bonus over the 140 that a hybrid might have. The pure will also have a stat bonus in PS or ath, but again 1 point doesn't make that huge a difference. A hybrid on the other hand has a ranged weapon while only being slightly worse off in melee. Really that handful of wpf and a point or 2 more in a skill makes little difference. This is based on my dueling experience. I start dueling my characters at lvl15, and really once you have 110 wpf and 5 ath you have a decent chance against anyone. Anything above that makes it easier, but isn't needed.

In short: The (capable) ranged/melee weapon a hybrid gains is far more useful than the minor stat bonus you get as a pure.

[Centurion]

Back in the middle ages the only specialty classes were archers. All infantry were expected to use shield spear and 1h. And it wasn't hard to chuck random weapons at eachother in battle stop being retards

[EponiCo]

Saint, just try it in battle.
My pure melee char is just doing fine (yeh, throwing spam is annoying sometimes but I use a shield ), I see no reason personally to take an extra crossbow or bow. While I'm shooting I'm not fighting and heh, my budget is spread thinly enough between sword, armor, shield, and sometimes horse. I'd have to go naked for the heavy crossbow.
My archer still has no wpf in melee, simply see no reason to stop improving the weapon I use 90% of the time to 140/150 wpf, but yeah, sometimes I kill 3 melees with my backup weapon, no wpf needed.