Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization

[Keshian]

It seems ever since the patch hit with its rapidly increasing cost of wpf after 100 wpf, there has been a massive influx of hybrid builds, which means in most cases ranged/melee hybrid.  Specialists in one field receive very little increased benefit (20-30 in main class more wpf = 100 in hybrid class) and so even more then pre-patch almost every person playing has some ranged weaponry (mostly throwing nowadays until its nerfed).  The upkeep cost is not a deterrent as to make decent armor viable upkeep is pretty low making it reasonable for a person with medium armor to have both melee and ranged weapons.

The bestw ay to fix this is to make all wpf cost 5 wpf points per 1 effective across the board whether you already have 10 or 140 wpf in a class.  The main reason the escalating wpf was originally in place was a carryover from the single player game.  People would still end up at roughly the same maximum wpf they have now because the first 100 wpf would be significantly more expensive, but the later wpf would be relatively cheaper.  This would without a doubt shift from a hybrid focus to a specialization focus and remove half the ranged in the game.  You would no longer have 2 classes with 100 wpf, but instead 120-140 in one or 100 in one and 20-40 in another class.  Cheap wpf at low levels has made this a hybrid heaven and made everyone have a ranged sub-class.

Also,  hybrid classes have fewer counters, whereas specialized classes each have a counter archers->shielder, shielder->cavalry, cavalry->throwers, etc.  This makes the game far more balanced overall and forces more strategy and teamwork instead of having one-man wrecking crews throwing javelins and then meleeing with an elegant poleaxe with good wpf in each.

Please chadz, give this a try and many of the current imbalances can be fixed. 

[Keshian]

It seems ever since the patch hit with its rapidly increasing cost of wpf after 100 wpf, there has been a massive influx of hybrid builds, which means in most cases ranged/melee hybrid.  Specialists in one field receive very little increased benefit (20-30 in main class more wpf = 100 in hybrid class) and so even more then pre-patch almost every person playing has some ranged weaponry (mostly throwing nowadays until its nerfed).  The upkeep cost is not a deterrent as to make decent armor viable upkeep is pretty low making it reasonable for a person with medium armor to have both melee and ranged weapons.

The best way to fix this is to make all wpf cost 5 wpf points per 1 effective across the board whether you already have 10 or 140 wpf in a class.  The main reason the escalating wpf was originally in place was a carryover from the single player game.  People would still end up at roughly the same maximum wpf they have now because the first 100 wpf would be significantly more expensive, but the later wpf would be relatively cheaper.  This would without a doubt shift from a hybrid focus to a specialization focus and remove half the ranged in the game.  You would no longer have 2 classes with 100 wpf, but instead 120-140 in one or 100 in one and 20-40 in another class.  Cheap wpf at low levels has made this a hybrid heaven and made everyone have a ranged sub-class.

Also,  hybrid classes have fewer counters, whereas specialized classes each have a counter archers->shielder, shielder->cavalry, cavalry->throwers, etc.  This makes the game far more balanced overall and forces more strategy and teamwork instead of having one-man wrecking crews throwing javelins and then meleeing with an elegant poleaxe with good wpf in each.

Please chadz, give this a try and many of the current imbalances can be fixed. 

[UrLukur]

No, just no. Strict specialization should be choice, not no-brainer.

Hybrids should be strong choices.

Problem lies in fact, that 2h and Polearms and Crossbows don't require many skills.

Hybrids are fine, nerf ranged, perhaps even reduce softcap to lvl 25 to make going hybrid less common (skills scale in this way that the difference between PS 4 and 5 are higher than from lvl 5 to lvl 6, due to the nature of the damage in this game).

[Punisher]

Nvm, I didn't read it carefully, was alt-tabbed

I totally agree with you Keshian, great idea.

[Keshian]

No, just no. Strict specialization should be choice, not no-brainer.

Hybrids should be strong choices.

Problem lies in fact, that 2h and Polearms and Crossbows don't require many skills.

Hybrids are fine, nerf ranged, perhaps even reduce softcap to lvl 25 to make going hybrid less common (skills scale in this way that the difference between PS 4 and 5 are higher than from lvl 5 to lvl 6, due to the nature of the damage in this game).

Thats exactly the problem, hybrids shouldnt be a no-brainer like now.  This way people will have to go 60 wpf in each class or go more agility build toa ctually make a hybrid.  As of now I went almost pure strength build and had 100 wpf both throwing and polearm, which was obvious choice as otherwise I would have done only 124 specializing in one class.  Hybrids are no-brainers right now and need rebalancing.

Its not just the OP nature of thrower hybrids, its the over-abundance of melee/ranged hybrids.  There is more ranged spamming then pre-patch and its the sheer abundance of ranged thats part of the problem that was created when chadz shifted wpf costs to heavily favor hybrids.

[Spawny]

No, just no. Strict specialization should be choice, not no-brainer.

Hybrids should be strong choices.

Problem lies in fact, that 2h and Polearms and Crossbows don't require many skills.

Hybrids are fine, nerf ranged, perhaps even reduce softcap to lvl 25 to make going hybrid less common (skills scale in this way that the difference between PS 4 and 5 are higher than from lvl 5 to lvl 6, due to the nature of the damage in this game).

Right.

I agree with Keshian.
Hybrids will still be viable, but they will be what they should've been from the start: Jack of all trades, Master of none.

[Centurion]

Im a balanced hybrid of shield sword and throwing build. And I deffinitely don't need to be nerfed I do relatively well as it is.  And im not a overpowered guy. Im not a super hero but ill lead the round ocasionally the things that need to be nerfed are all strength hammer spanning builds. Leave us balanced hybrids alone and go pick on people who use great mauls.

Join Lost Legion today.
Send me a message or add me on steam at Kolyskoa

[Gorath]

Also,  hybrid classes have fewer counters, whereas specialized classes each have a counter archers->shielder, shielder->cavalry, cavalry->throwers, etc.  This makes the game far more balanced overall and forces more strategy and teamwork instead of having one-man wrecking crews throwing javelins and then meleeing with an elegant poleaxe with good wpf in each.

I highly disagree.  There will never be any such thing as a true specialized class unless we implement actual "classes".  As an archer I don't need a single wpf in 2h or polearms to melee.  Not a single point, and I can melee just fine.  You know this to be true as well.  Do we ban archers from picking up melee weapons at all?

As a 2her/polearmer I can pick up an xbow without a single wpf in it and have ranged capability.  Not a single point and I can shoot people fairly reliably.  Do we ban them from picking up an xbow at all?

As a thrower, I don't need to put a single wpf into throwing since it's a crapshoot anyways.  Currently I have 100 wpf in throwing on my 2her that feels wasted anyways, as I have a 1her with throwing but only 1 wpf.  Same PT level (5) and they both are just about as (in)accurate as each other.

So how would you propose we "balance" this?  I have a 1her/polearm character with 130 wpf/100 wpf currently and it doesn't seem like anyone has a complaint about double melee hybrids at all, just anyone that's a ranged/melee hybrid.  So what is the proposal to prevent this, because under your system I'll just make hybrids where I can use one without any wpf at all and still do well (an archer/2her, or a 2h/pole + xbow, or a thrower with 1wpf and the rest of the wpf into melee).

I really don't see how this would create more diversity at all, unless the overall point is to reduce the ranged in the game in which case I still have to ask:  Why don't we just get rid of ranged altogether?  Seems the only thing to do is make ranged more and more worthless until only an idiot would choose to be one because of how nerfed/ineffective it is so why beat around the bush and even have it as an option?

[Belatu]

How do you dare to tell chadz what to do??
 He is One and Only and our LudoGod
 He is wise and he build the game he/we want to play.
 That is all about. now please, some admin move this thread to spam section so I can post nonsense pictures about 

[Byrdi]

So true, there is a lot of hybrids
Your solutions seems pretty fair and simple.

[Punisher]

This is a great idea, this way hybrids will be balanced (even throwing) while pure builds won't be affected at all. Hybrids are still viable, but you will actually have to invest more in agility and weapon master to be a hybrid, like it should be in the first place. Hybrids should be jack of trades, but master of nothing, not both like they are now.

[Gorath]

I highly disagree.  There will never be any such thing as a true specialized class unless we implement actual "classes".  As an archer I don't need a single wpf in 2h or polearms to melee.  Not a single point, and I can melee just fine.  You know this to be true as well.  Do we ban archers from picking up melee weapons at all?

As a 2her/polearmer I can pick up an xbow without a single wpf in it and have ranged capability.  Not a single point and I can shoot people fairly reliably.  Do we ban them from picking up an xbow at all?

As a thrower, I don't need to put a single wpf into throwing since it's a crapshoot anyways.  Currently I have 100 wpf in throwing on my 2her that feels wasted anyways, as I have a 1her with throwing but only 1 wpf.  Same PT level (5) and they both are just about as (in)accurate as each other.

So how would you propose we "balance" this?  I have a 1her/polearm character with 130 wpf/100 wpf currently and it doesn't seem like anyone has a complaint about double melee hybrids at all, just anyone that's a ranged/melee hybrid.  So what is the proposal to prevent this, because under your system I'll just make hybrids where I can use one without any wpf at all and still do well (an archer/2her, or a 2h/pole + xbow, or a thrower with 1wpf and the rest of the wpf into melee).

I really don't see how this would create more diversity at all, unless the overall point is to reduce the ranged in the game in which case I still have to ask:  Why don't we just get rid of ranged altogether?  Seems the only thing to do is make ranged more and more worthless until only an idiot would choose to be one because of how nerfed/ineffective it is so why beat around the bush and even have it as an option?

When people say jack of all trades, master of none what they really seem to mean is "Gimp at everything."  If that's the case, why bother?  Currently specialists DO have a mathmatical game advantage over real hybrids.  Sorry, your having 150+ wpf and 3+ extra stat points makes a BIG difference mechanics wise over my hybrid who sacrifices those levels of stats in order to be versatile.  If I beat you, it's not because the mechanics are flawed, but because I out played you.  I know that no one likes to hear that, but it's true.  Just like any archer that has 1 wpf and picks up a katana/longsword/whatever and kills you in melee.  The mechanics didn't fail, you did.

TLDR:  If you change WPF we hybrid players will simply go back to making builds that require no WPF to hybrid (Archer + 2h/pole, 2h/pole + xbow, 1h/shield + xbow, Thrower with all WPF in melee weapon and simply rely on PT level for accuracy).  Effectively pre-patch hybrids which were in reality pure builds exploiting mechanics rather than building a real hybrid like currently.

[Punisher]

TLDR:  If you change WPF we hybrid players will simply go back to making builds that require no WPF to hybrid (Archer + 2h/pole, 2h/pole + xbow, 1h/shield + xbow, Thrower with all WPF in melee weapon and simply rely on PT level for accuracy).

Or you could put more points in agility->weapon master so you actually have to sacrifice something to be a hybrid.

[Wiegraf_BRD]

I like Hybrids.  games that have set classes are lame.

[Gorath]

Or you could put more points in agility->weapon master so you actually have to sacrifice something to be a hybrid.

I do sacrifice something to be a hybrid.     As a pure build you will have higher stats and skill levels than I do.  For my 2h/thrower I have to put skill points into throwing, which requires strength.  I also put points into WM which requires agility.
My 2her / thrower is @30
17/22

PS 5
PT 5
Ath 7
WM 7

2h 140
throwing 100

Whereas YOUR 2her could be

18/23
PS 6
Ath 7
WM 7

2h 187

That's a far more efficient build, especially since once you hit 31 I could grab that 24th agility and pump up ATH and WM again to get into 190 ish range for wpf.

Hybrids do sacrifice, the mechanics say you SHOULD win.  If you're not beating that hybrid in melee with your melee specialized character you are failing your build, not the other way around.