cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Prpavi on September 03, 2011, 06:00:34 pm
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I dont know how hard can it be.
Talked to allot of ppl recently and everybody agrees they should be out.
Its quite ridiculous what some maps turn into (well most of them)
discuss, vote.
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As discussed in the Suggestions Corner, I agree, they need to go.
Also, the people who will say no are mostly those, who abuse this "feature." They want their unreachable place every round I guess.
I could take/post so many pictures where ranged brings a ladder, destroys it, then enjoys the fresh air up there for the entire round, camping. Is this how a Battle happened? :rolleyes:
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Should have been done months ago......
Only purpose of ladders in battle mode is for Ranged players not having to turn off cRPG to go play left for dead 2...
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I say yes cause I'm admin on pecores server and I'm tired to say "get down " again and again.....
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Every round I see ranged players putting up ladders, climbing to the highest roof on the map, then destroying the ladder. Is this even allowed based on server rules? I tell them to get down in admin chat at the end of the round, but I kind of just want to start blanket kicking people who do this as it certainly seems like an exploit. If I did that, I'd have to kick 10-15 people per town map.
Played on EU1 a couple times and there was literally 15 ranged players on one roof each round in a row, its horrible.
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Every round I see ranged players putting up ladders, climbing to the highest roof on the map, then destroying the ladder. Is this even allowed based on server rules? I tell them to get down in admin chat at the end of the round, but I kind of just want to start blanket kicking people who do this as it certainly seems like an exploit. If I did that, I'd have to kick 10-15 people per town map.
Played on EU1 a couple times and there was literally 15 ranged players on one roof each round in a row, its horrible.
hey some of us here are naked riding sumpters with 2 medium ladders
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I'm melee but I think ladders add an interesting strategic option.
If you removed them, you should add preset "permanent ladders" to maps which don't already have them. This way, archers would still have roofs but melee could also get on top of them. Seems balanced imo.
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Not at all, cause many of those map ladders are bugged...like many other elements on map...
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I'm melee but I think ladders add an interesting strategic option.
If you removed them, you should add preset "permanent ladders" to maps which don't already have them. This way, archers would still have roofs but melee could also get on top of them. Seems balanced imo.
Nope.
Even if you have a shield, you're a sitting duck while using a ladder, prone to get killed by arrows.
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Nope.
Even if you have a shield, you're a sitting duck while using a ladder, prone to get killed by arrows.
Well i"m a sitting duck on the ground for cav, but you don't care about that eh? Honestly, I don't see too many ladders getting put up these days, but I know its just a slippery slope, first you'll lobby ladders away, then the "make being on a roof altogether illegal" crowd will start up.
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Voted no, that will just buff horse...
Also If you can't get the archer because they're camping a roof, just don't go near them and wait for the Flag. They will probaly lose the round if they don't get down anyway... :lol:
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God, this again.
Abridged version:
No, ladders add dimension, player strategy, they can be dealt with.
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Voted no, that will just buff horse...
Also If you can't get the archer because they're camping a roof, just don't go near them and wait for the Flag. They will probaly lose the round if they don't get down anyway... :lol:
This...gets..so...tiresome! Maybe it's just EU 1 but once some arseface plants a ladder at a building the shit hits the fan. The rest of the map is just roofcamping. I blame the flat roofs on the desert maps, they seem to inspire people to think 'I have an idea, lets pew pew from the roof'.
Ladders are gay, make no sense whatsoever. If archery can't survive on flat ground, the balance is off. Thus the balancing should be fixed, I look at you cavalry!
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This...gets..so...tiresome! Maybe it's just EU 1 but once some arseface plants a ladder at a building the shit hits the fan. The rest of the map is just roofcamping. I blame the flat roofs on the desert maps, they seem to inspire people to think 'I have an idea, lets pew pew from the roof'.
Ladders are gay, make no sense whatsoever. If archery can't survive on flat ground, the balance is off. Thus the balancing should be fixed, I look at you cavalry!
So many EU (and now NA1) maps are straight cav fests. All open ground with a few buildings in the middle. It makes perfect sense that ranged players want to be in the one spot on the map where they won't be lanced in the first minute of battle
edit: I'll also add that my point of view is from that of an arbalest player who has to stand there exposed and reload for 10 seconds between shots
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So many EU (and now NA1) maps are straight cav fests. All open ground with a few buildings in the middle. It makes perfect sense that ranged players want to be in the one spot on the map where they won't be lanced in the first minute of battle
edit: I'll also add that my point of view is from that of an arbalest player who has to stand there exposed and reload for 10 seconds between shots
Most archers don't even have problems dealing with cav on completly open ground. 1 cav vs 1 archer on open ground : archer wins because he either OSed the cavalry or OSed the horse then the guy. Even worse with throwers. Xbowers are either hybrid and can defend themselves, or so agi-oriented that they are impossible to catch as a cav.
So even without roofs ranged are a difficult target for cav. If the archer is not 100% unaware of you, you stand no chance and have to flee.
Fact is, my kills as a cav are probably 70% of infantry, 20% of other cav and 10% ranged.
Roofs make this even more one-sided by making the archers absolutely immune to both cav and infantry. What would archers think if suddenly all melee troops got an armor that negated all ranged damage ? :lol: Well that's exactly what ladders are, but the other way around.
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Most archers don't even have problems dealing with cav on completly open ground. 1 cav vs 1 archer on open ground : archer wins because he either OSed the cavalry or OSed the horse then the guy. Even worse with throwers. Xbowers are either hybrid and can defend themselves, or so agi-oriented that they are impossible to catch as a cav.
I don't consider myself a bad player, but I know that on flat open ground, if I fail to take down the incoming horse with my one bolt, I'm generally screwed. I have 9 ath and I promise, I still can't out run a horse.
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ppl get on roofs to avoid cav rape a lot of the time
both teams can bring ladders and roof campers arent usually very deadly
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I'm totally with you guys taking the ladders away from battle mode.
The modified village maps would be much better, without ladders to change the maps in to a rangedfest.
But if there could be coded an item, that would make spike wall or half circle from spikes. That would give needed help against cavalry.
and kafein, you should spectate couple rounds for Assarhaddon, Torben, Ujin, Sphongled, Phazh, Oberyn, Lizardman or any other good long time cavalrymen raping any archer/xbower on ground.
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What would archers think if suddenly all melee troops got an armor that negated all ranged damage ?
Shield :rolleyes:
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I'm totally with you guys taking the ladders away from battle mode.
The modified village maps would be much better, without ladders to change the maps in to a rangedfest.
But if there could be coded an item, that would make spike wall or half circle from spikes. That would give needed help against cavalry.
and kafein, you should spectate couple rounds for Assarhaddon, Torben, Ujin, Sphongled, Phazh, Oberyn, Lizardman or any other good long time cavalrymen raping any archer/xbower on ground.
Mmh, I think those know when they have to attack. Cavalry is much more about when than about how. I doubt they kill aware archers of the same skill very often though. The best way to optimize your chances is to circle in a "safe" zone around the archer then charging as he releases the arrow, hoping that he can't shoot the next one before you reach him, so the more riding and maneuver, the better.
Furthermore, when I spectate those guys, I curiously never (or very rarely) see any of them charging an aware archer in the open, at least alone.
Shield :rolleyes:
Ho, you compare something that negates ranged damage and something that breaks in two axe hits, barely protects 30° in front of you and not even your feet, make you extremely slow and is pierced like a sheet of paper by good xbows ? :lol:
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now 80% of maps dont have any spot for archers and xbowmans, make some undestroyble ladders and it will be balanced, because range and possobility to shoot from some roof is reason why people take this class, archers can run and shoot, but xbow cant do this.
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I suggest to do to not break the already placed ladders but to drop them to the ground. Those who climbed to the roof will have to ask someone to hide the dropped ladder or this ladder will remain on the ground. If so, anyone can place this ladder again and get those archers from roofs. The result is more teamplay and more realism.
P.S. i know, my english is bad :)
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I voted yes for their removal, primarily because the whole unreachable issue is too much of a gray area to be enforced effectively and correctly every time. There are too many circumstantial scenarios and no real failproof solution available other than removing them and being done with it.
I understand that ladders can be fun, but they tend to detract a lot more than they add.
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all ranged is gay and unballanced however much u tweak it, bundle of sticksry is gay yes.. no but yes but no but actually yes really
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The other team can just bring their own ladders, it's just strategy.
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I voted yes for their removal, primarily because the whole unreachable issue is too much of a gray area to be enforced effectively and correctly every time. There are too many circumstantial scenarios and no real failproof solution available other than removing them and being done with it.
I understand that ladders can be fun, but they tend to detract a lot more than they add.
^
This
Ladders make shitty maps shittier. And no, roofcamping isn't "fun" except for the assholes doing it. If you need an extra piece of gear just to get somewhere, you shouldn't be able to get there. Period.
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Ladders should only be removed if absolutely every single map is heavily regulated where every accessable elevated spot has at least two paths to it, preferably three, and the Master of the Field spawns are placed by the map maker to spawn in sane location on the map and not retarded/random spots. Every place that is not meant to be accessed should have an invisible wall.
Otherwise, keep them.
As a side note, why do we have two threads for the same topic? Lazy sons of bitches... Check before you create a "new" topic.
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Behaviour like this... seriously wtf.
that guy threw a ladder let a bunch of ranged on top the of the roof and lo and behold
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Immediately he destroyed the ladder ofc making it impossible to reach it... just fkn remove the ladders already they just fuck with the game.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
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I think ladders add a lot of fun and strategy to the maps. How about just make it so they can't be destroyed by the person who places it or their teammates? Just an idea.
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I think ladders add a lot of fun and strategy to the maps. How about just make it so they can't be destroyed by the person who places it or their teammates? Just an idea.
You'll get fail ladders blocking the shit out of everything and a lot of trolling with ladderblocking.
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Trolls will troll. We can turn off TK's but we don't. If people wan't to troll their team by blocking them with ladders, let them, and they can get banned. At least it would change from boring delayers trolling the other team, to idiots trolling their own team. And we'd get to keep ladders!
It would be a lot more obvious and easy to moderate instead of having poor admins having to sit there every round saying "get down, get down". They could just say. "Oh, you blocked your teammates with a ladder for no real reason. You are someone we won't miss." BAN.
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I think ladders add a lot of fun and strategy to the maps. How about just make it so they can't be destroyed by the person who places it or their teammates? Just an idea.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14732.0.html
Bah, ladder lobbyist everywhere. Kill them all.
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http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14732.0.html
Bah, ladder lobbyist everywhere. Kill them all.
Oh neat. I hadn't even seen that. I GUESS IM NOT ORIGINAL THEN OH GOD ME SELF WORRTTTHHHH.
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Nope.
Even if you have a shield, you're a sitting duck while using a ladder, prone to get killed by arrows.
Not really. It's pretty easy to get up a ladder with a shield unless the archers have a side/back shot.
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Here's a thought, carry your own ladder so you can go up after those my old friendgy archers on the roof.
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Here's a thought, carry your own ladder so you can go up after those my old friendgy archers on the roof.
wow u must be a brain surgeon.
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Here's a thought, carry your own ladder so you can go up after those my old friendgy archers on the roof.
OMG THE SLOT SYSTEM DOESN'T TOTALLY PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING ON ANY NORMAL CHARACTER! BRILLIANT!
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only enemies should destroy ladders :l
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OMG THE SLOT SYSTEM DOESN'T TOTALLY PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING ON ANY NORMAL CHARACTER! BRILLIANT!
It goes both ways. Ranged can't bring their own ladders either. Someone has to sacrifice something to bring a ladder no matter which team they are on
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It goes both ways. Ranged can't bring their own ladders either. Someone has to sacrifice something to bring a ladder no matter which team they are on
Except the ranged that constantly make use of this are usually:
Grouped, so they know for sure they're going to be having support
Planning to use the ladder for sure because they want to camp some otherwise unreachable roof with their other ranged bretheren
The guy(s) on the other team that have to sacrifice their shit will be bringing a ladder THINKING:
That there will be ranged being gay and camping somewhere they shouldn't be
Maybe they'll survive long enough carrying a giant ladder to get to place it AFTER the other teams ranged places their camp-ladder
The other team won't immediately break the ladder they're carrying in order to prevent people from reaching their perfect camp spot
Really ladders are just stupid in battle. They're awesome in siege, they're a good edition for strat, but in basic battle they detract far far far more than they add.
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Except the ranged that constantly make use of this are usually:
Grouped, so they know for sure they're going to be having support
Planning to use the ladder for sure because they want to camp some otherwise unreachable roof with their other ranged bretheren
The guy(s) on the other team that have to sacrifice their shit will be bringing a ladder THINKING:
That there will be ranged being gay and camping somewhere they shouldn't be
Maybe they'll survive long enough carrying a giant ladder to get to place it AFTER the other teams ranged places their camp-ladder
The other team won't immediately break the ladder they're carrying in order to prevent people from reaching their perfect camp spot
Really ladders are just stupid in battle. They're awesome in siege, they're a good edition for strat, but in basic battle they detract far far far more than they add.
Good points. If they are removed though, many maps will need to be edited to add permanent ways up to roofs. Try bringing an arablest to one of the many many open village maps and see how long you last before being raped by the cav (whose numbers are EXPLODING in NA atm). You'll see that you desperately need to get some cover if you want to have any impact on the battle. I guess my main concern about this whole ladder debate is that it will lead to roofs being entirely out of the game, and with the map situation as it is, we will just be setting ourselves up for some horrible cav fests. Cav players take note: from what I've seen from this community, you WILL be the next target of the OMG NERF!! crowd if/when ranged gets their y axis taken away from them. Be conscious of that as you drool over the thought of more helpless ranged players scurrying before you.
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Good points. If they are removed though, many maps will need to be edited to add permanent ways up to roofs.
Agreed. I'm not against ranged having the ability to get to high ground. I'm really not that blind in my hatred of all things non-infantry. :wink:
I just think that those spots should be balanced and accounted for in the map design, which means the map makers need to take a moment to think about shit like this. In every good FPS (and yes, this game is essentially an FPS with good melee mechanics. in before all the haters scream "ITS NOT AN FPS!") the Y axis and high ground is used quite a bit. Only it's part of map design so that the enemy has ways to get up to it, flank it, etc. Rather than be stuck on the ground screaming "GET DOWN bundle of sticks!" for 5 minutes.
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I voted no because ladders give more strategies to team that can use them right. Some maps are rather straight forward with just few choke points, but ladders give more opportunities.
Also, I have played an archer for few gens and there's no way I'd have chance against the cav on ground level, mostly because there usually is just far too many of them.
But yes it's unfair to destroy the ladders so no one can reach you. You could always say that don't try to attack house full of archers and no way up, but there's always someone who does and there won't be flags. Imho ladders aren't the problem, it's the people abusing them. Some kids always ruin the fun for others... and I'd hate to see yet another nice thing nerfed/removed because of it. I don't know... maybe they'll stop if you give valor to people TK'ing ladder wreckers? :twisted:
Just my two cents.
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I voted no because ladders give more strategies to team that can use them right. Some maps are rather straight forward with just few choke points, but ladders give more opportunities.
Also, I have played an archer for few gens and there's no way I'd have chance against the cav on ground level, mostly because there usually is just far too many of them.
But yes it's unfair to destroy the ladders so no one can reach you. You could always say that don't try to attack house full of archers and no way up, but there's always someone who does and there won't be flags. Imho ladders aren't the problem, it's the people abusing them. Some kids always ruin the fun for others... and I'd hate to see yet another nice thing nerfed/removed because of it. I don't know... maybe they'll stop if you give valor to people TK'ing ladder wreckers? :twisted:
Just my two cents.
If by strategy, you mean camping the same spot for 5min every round, then yes, ladders bring one strategic element into the game.
Funny thing about your cavalry comment, they(cav) think exactly the same of archers. The only way for them(cav) to kill you(archer) is backstabbing you unaware. And when archers goes roof, they completely shift the 'class'-balance in their favor.
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Every round I see ranged players putting up ladders, climbing to the highest roof on the map, then destroying the ladder.
Make ladders immune to 'friendly fire', thus making it impossible to destroy friendly ladders.
That way, only enemies can destroy that ladder you put up to that roof.
I love ladders, don't remove them. They offer great tactical variation if used correctly.
Remember you can easily bring a ladder to assault a roof. Roof camping can be countered with a bit of timing, team play and two free slots. It's not that hard to deal with, it's just annoying. If you don't have a ladder, just stay away from that roof with those roofcampers, wait till (most) people on the ground are dead and ask the admin to threaten the roofcampers with pink text and kicks.
And next round, bring a ladder to counter their roofcamp. Organize a little squad and massacre those defenceless archers by pushing forward at the start of the round and deploying an aggressively placed ladder to their roof.
Like i said in the 'Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team'-thread
Removing ladders because some people abuse the mechanic to create unreachable roofs means giving up a great feature just because some people are bad sports. It's like giving in to the leechers and removing the upkeep system altogether just because of them.
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Make ladders immune to 'friendly fire', thus making it impossible to destroy friendly ladders.
That way, only enemies can destroy that ladder you put up to that roof.
I love ladders, don't remove them. They offer great tactical variation if used correctly.
Remember you can easily bring a ladder to assault a roof. Roof camping can be countered with a bit of timing, team play and two free slots. It's not that hard to deal with, it's just annoying. If you don't have a ladder, just stay away from that roof with those roofcampers, wait till (most) people on the ground are dead and ask the admin to threaten the roofcampers with pink text and kicks.
And next round, bring a ladder to counter their roofcamp. Organize a little squad and massacre those defenceless archers by pushing forward at the start of the round and deploying an aggressively placed ladder to their roof.
Like i said in the 'Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team'-thread
Removing ladders because some people abuse the mechanic to create unreachable roofs means giving up a great feature just because some people are bad sports. It's like giving in to the leechers and removing the upkeep system altogether just because of them.
I would looooooove to see some examples of this great usage of ladders some people are talking about...
I refuse to believe roof-camping is that 'tactical variation' etc... :rolleyes:
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wow u must be a brain surgeon.
Yup, in fact I'm so smart, I figured out that you are an asshole. It wasn't really that hard though.
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+1 to what Phazey said. Ladders add some little things to the game, you should not remove it :?
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OMG THE SLOT SYSTEM DOESN'T TOTALLY PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING ON ANY NORMAL CHARACTER! BRILLIANT!
That's why there is a concept called team work. Try it sometime. If someone asked me in team chat to bring a ladder on the next round, I'd be pleased to.
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Also, I have played an archer for few gens and there's no way I'd have chance against the cav on ground level, mostly because there usually is just far too many of them.
Seriously, I can't say anything else than L2P about that.
About ladders to assault a roof : how are you supposed to attack a taken roof with a new ladder if your ladder is destructed in 2 seconds by the my old friends on the roof ? Bring 10 ladders and hope for the best ? Get real.
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+1 to what Phazey said. Ladders add some little things to the game, you should not remove it :?
Mostly map breaking, camping bundle of sticksry. But sure.
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please dont deprive fallen of their best tactic
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please dont deprive fallen of their best tactic
Wouldn't that be running though?
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Wouldn't that be running though?
Roofcamping is just as good. May as well be it.
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Say what you want, the Fallen win more then we lose, have land, and are having fun regardless of what goes on in strat.
I am ok with our tactics giving us some of that enjoyment.
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Question:
Archers camps roofs, people whine but it is accepted.
I camp the end of the map, people whine and i get kicked, possible banned.
Both are delaying and displaying douchbaggery, why the different threatment?
*edit* Before someone claims the first scenario is tactical and the last isnt, well consider this: Since archers are already camping the roof, a tactical retreat until they get down should be within my right as a player. Too bad if that results in a draw, but they brought it down upon themself when they started camping, and im not suicidal enough to charge them, even if a ladder is still intact.
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Consider this suggestion:
Keep ladders
Make them indestructable when deployed
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Consider this suggestion:
Keep ladders
Make them indestructable when deployed
wouldnt work.
too much asshole griefers blocking all sorts of things just imagine Nord Town or similar map.
also what i find to be a big problem in this whole situation is the ureachable camp rules on the servers. you are basically allowed to camp where nobody can get to you and have a massive effect on the outcome of the round as long as you have only one guy on the ground. he could be riding around the enemies and be passive but you can still be up there and shoot and kill.
seen many rounds won like this (not literally) but when it comes down towards the end of the round and 10v10 situations and you have half of the other team unreachable and shooting thats a big advantage. you cant touch them but yet their influene on the rounds end could be decisive.
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Seriously, I can't say anything else than L2P about that.
About ladders to assault a roof : how are you supposed to attack a taken roof with a new ladder if your ladder is destructed in 2 seconds by the my old friends on the roof ? Bring 10 ladders and hope for the best ? Get real.
The trick is to deploy the ladder in such a way that it doesn't stick out at the top. (l2p right back at ya :wink:)
That way, it's very hard to destroy for the defenders. They either have to jump down and try from the ground or jump onto the ladder, which is almost impossible if you defend it with a couple of players and rush up as soon as possible. Generally, you can start running up the ladder before enemies can hit it from the roof.
Deploy ladder at maximum range so it just reaches the roof's edge and start running up as soon as you can. That way, enemies have a very hard time destroying that ladder. But i never said it was easy. :wink:
Excessive roofcamping can be annoying, but it's also pretty easy to counter. Either avoid the roof altogether by counter-camping elsewhere on the map or make an assault on it with a ladder or two. If you feel that ladders are still too weak, go lobby for stronger ladders so it's easier to assault a roof that is being camped. I'm all for it! :)
Removing ladders altogether would mean very limited cover for archers. I'd rather find a way to tweak the ladder system in such a way that it's easier to assault a roof that's being camped. That or some measure to prevent roofcampers from making it inaccessible by destroying their own ladder.
The way i see it, roofcamping is somewhat overused and therefore a bit annoying at times, but i think ladders offer nice varation. Instead of removing them, i suggest we ask our dear donkey to tweak them so it's easier to assault a roof that's being camped.
If ladders would be a bit stronger, it would be easier to attack a roof with it. Also, reducing friendly damage to ladders would making it less attractive to destroy those, thus creating less 'unreachable roof'-situations. But to be honest, i feel that ladders are already tweaked pretty good. The latest changes have been great (easier to deploy, no more 'sinking' through buildings and gets 'stuck' a lot less).
And about people camping unreachable roofs at the end of the round: last night i banned, yes, banned (omg :!:) a guy for being the last guy on the unreachable roof and refusing to come down. Okay, it was only a one hour ban, but you get my point: just as endlessly running away as cavalry at the end of the round is not allowed, so it's also not allowed to camp unreachable places as the last player(s) alive.
If you notice excessive unreachable roof camping, just call in an admin. Just like excessive running away at the end of the round or hiding, these are behaviours that have been in crpg from the start. You don't get rid of those by removing game features. Don't blame the game, blame the players. :)
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Question:
Archers camps roofs, people whine but it is accepted.
I camp the end of the map, people whine and i get kicked, possible banned.
Both are delaying and displaying douchbaggery, why the different threatment?
*edit* Before someone claims the first scenario is tactical and the last isnt, well consider this: Since archers are already camping the roof, a tactical retreat until they get down should be within my right as a player. Too bad if that results in a draw, but they brought it down upon themself when they started camping, and im not suicidal enough to charge them, even if a ladder is still intact.
Maybe because the archers have a range weapon and are participating the entire battle?
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Maybe because the archers have a range weapon and are participating the entire battle?
Main is archer. Try again.
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Main is archer. Try again.
Maybe because people hate you for having the Ninja tag?
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Maybe because people hate you?
Touche.
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Maybe because the archers have a range weapon and are participating the entire battle?
maybe thats why they shouldnt be allowed to stay unreachable no matter the circumstances (number of players in their team on the ground)
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...they shouldnt be allowed to stay unreachable no matter the circumstances
Actually, not really a bad idea.
The obvious 'problem' then becomes this: enemies can just run to the ladder, swiftly destroy it in two or three blows and then hide and demand the roofcampers come down.
But... that's actually not that bad... is it? Roofcamping allowed if the roof is reachable... that way the roofcampers must try to keep their ladder intact instead of making it attractive for them to destroy it.
What do we think guys? What would happen if roofcamping was not allowed unless the roof is reachable?
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What do we think guys? What would happen if roofcamping was not allowed unless the roof is reachable?
Well on NA that happens all the time, and nobody ever complains... ever. Besides Farmer_nate, but that means you are doing it right.
A lot of matches on certain maps end with people trudging up a static ladder or stair trying to budge some defenders (usually get slaughtered in the process though) but nobody seems to complain all that much which is odd.
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To save the honour of archers, I'm an archer and I voted for it because I hate being on a rooftop and I don't like all those camping archers^^
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What do we think guys? What would happen if roofcamping was not allowed unless the roof is reachable?
i think that would work really well and would be no need for removal of ladders.
as soon as the ladder falls you need to come down!
sounds good but one fault, requires heavy admining all the time on servers. thats why i made a proposition fo removal of the ladders because all the things u said Phaz work i theory but we all know ppl are going to abuse the system (like they are doing it now) and this was a permanent solution wich doesnt require constatnt admin monitoring..
the second best proposal i saw here was to make the ladders destroyable only by the opposite team, but again same applies as stated above, way too much abuse posibilities.
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Just remove the ladders already, the majority wants it and its a great idea, rooftop camping and delaying is horrible and just bad gameplay, no tactics are involved just hiding and basically griefing
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sounds good but one fault, requires heavy admining all the time on servers.
we got'z lotsa admins 8-)
hmm i'm convinced now. don't remove ladders. instead: disallow camping unreachable places. that, and buff ladder hp. :D
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Buffing ladders would be nice as currently they are as strong as the hurt egos of all the clanners who post in the strat war threads. Doubling HP would be nice.
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we got'z lotsa admins 8-)
hmm i'm convinced now. don't remove ladders. instead: disallow camping unreachable places. that, and buff ladder hp. :D
This i could agree with, makes it possible for the regular players to grief back by destroying ladders.
But the thing is, people like myself would make it their mission to destroy those ladders, allies or not.
The only real solution in my opinion is to remove ladders from battle. They cause nothing but grief through lame 'tactics'. Instead of ladders, we could get some of the old maps back, instead of these open-field-with-one-village-maps that forces people to play lame to avoid getting raped by 1000 cavalry.
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But the thing is, people like myself would make it their mission to destroy those ladders, allies or not.
Well then i'd suggest adding the rule: "do not destroy friendly ladders"
You say roof campers cause you grief, but come on. Grief? That's ridiculous. You are just pissed off that archers get to have a safe spot on most maps.
The problem here is not the roofs or the roof camping, it's the fact that those roofs are often unreachable because nobody on your team (including you) have the sense to bring a ladder to a village fight.
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Well then i'd suggest adding the rule: "do not destroy friendly ladders"
You say roof campers cause you grief, but come on. Grief? That's ridiculous. You are just pissed off that archers get to have a safe spot on most maps.
The problem here is not the roofs or the roof camping, it's the fact that those roofs are often unreachable because nobody on your team (including you) have the sense to bring a ladder to a village fight.
Im all for archers having some kind of protection from infantry & cavalry, but roof-camping houses that are not supposed to be camped in the first place, is not it. Take the native maps, most of them have places where range can stand and shoot at other players with some protection. IE high-ground, staircases, roofs with built-in-ladders. These are fine.
Whats not fine, is facing roof-campers with no possible retaliation against them, until everyone else on their team is dead.
Its not fine that infantry & cavalry have to kill off the entire enemy team, save for those campers, before they are able to touch them.
In my eyes this is grieving, its a loophole in the rules, that allows them to stay alive until the end of the match, while being able to rain down arrows on their enemy.
About ladders, its not always a viable tactic to bring a counter-ladder.. Reason being, on some maps you have to walk 1-2min just to get to their camping spot. Chances are, you wont be making the run alive, ladders seems to attract extra attention (arrows & lances). Also its easier to camp the other side, but do we really need more lame tactics?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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archers get to have a safe spot
This is the problem imho.
Just by bringing a ladder, ranged can render 2/3 of the playerbase completely useless, while still being able to stay effective themselves.
The whole concept of having access to "unreachable" places seems flawed to me - imagine if it was the other way around:
- Curses! The enemy hath brought archers to the field!
- What should we do m'lord?
- Bring out the RainbowRepellant 25-1-D
- The what?
- The RainbowRepellant! You know that little device for 2000 gold that makes all melee users on your team immune to ranged. Best of all, it automatically detects all forms of rangedbundle of sticksry and will block all melee attacks from anyone weilding a ranged weapon aswell. You're completely immune to them!
- Oh... Cooleth m'lord...
Srsly tho, I have to agree with whoever suggested that if the ladder is destroyed, the archers should be forced to go down.
Best thing would be an automatic system:
Ladder destroyed, ladder destroyed! Commencing ladderpulting of all archers in 3... 2... 1...
:mrgreen:
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This is the problem imho.
Just by bringing a ladder, ranged can render 2/3 of the playerbase completely useless, while still being able to stay effective themselves.
The whole concept of having access to "unreachable" places seems flawed to me - imagine if it was the other way around:
- Curses! The enemy hath brought archers to the field!
- What should we do m'lord?
- Bring out the RainbowRepellant 25-1-D
- The what?
- The RainbowRepellant! You know that little device for 2000 gold that makes all melee users on your team immune to ranged. Best of all, it automatically detects all forms of rangedbundle of sticksry and will block all melee attacks from anyone weilding a ranged weapon aswell. You're completely immune to them!
- Oh... Cooleth m'lord...
Srsly tho, I have to agree with whoever suggested that if the ladder is destroyed, the archers should be forced to go down.
Best thing would be an automatic system:
Ladder destroyed, ladder destroyed! Commencing ladderpulting of all archers in 3... 2... 1...
:mrgreen:
You sir are a genius someone hire this man :!:
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Im all for archers having some kind of protection from infantry & cavalry, but roof-camping houses that are not supposed to be camped in the first place, is not it. Take the native maps, most of them have places where range can stand and shoot at other players with some protection. IE high-ground, staircases, roofs with built-in-ladders. These are fine.
Whats not fine, is facing roof-campers with no possible retaliation against them, until everyone else on their team is dead.
Well, i agree with that. I also think the unreachable roof camping is annoying and questionable. But i don't agree that the fix is to remove the ladders from battle mode.
Instead, i would suggest ladders should have much more hitpoints or be (almost) immune to friendly fire, thus making it hard or impossible to create unreachable spots.
That, or maybe change the rules so that camping unreachable spots is not allowed.
Either way, i think there are options to keep ladders in battle mode and still do something about the excessive unreachable roof camping.
However, Punisher suggested that it would be better to remove ladders from battle mode and add some sort of deployable anti-cav spikes. Maybe that would be cool. I'm not sure.
I would just hate to lose having the option to bring a ladder to some maps. I hate the unreachable roof camping, but i love having a ladder to assault some of the more biased village maps.
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Actually, not really a bad idea.
The obvious 'problem' then becomes this: enemies can just run to the ladder, swiftly destroy it in two or three blows and then hide and demand the roofcampers come down.
But... that's actually not that bad... is it? Roofcamping allowed if the roof is reachable... that way the roofcampers must try to keep their ladder intact instead of making it attractive for them to destroy it.
What do we think guys? What would happen if roofcamping was not allowed unless the roof is reachable?
How do you enforce it with out admins babysitting it?
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This is the problem imho.
Just by bringing a ladder, ranged can render 2/3 of the playerbase completely useless, while still being able to stay effective themselves.
The whole concept of having access to "unreachable" places seems flawed to me - imagine if it was the other way around:
- Curses! The enemy hath brought archers to the field!
- What should we do m'lord?
- Bring out the RainbowRepellant 25-1-D
- The what?
- The RainbowRepellant! You know that little device for 2000 gold that makes all melee users on your team immune to ranged. Best of all, it automatically detects all forms of rangedbundle of sticksry and will block all melee attacks from anyone weilding a ranged weapon aswell. You're completely immune to them!
- Oh... Cooleth m'lord...
Srsly tho, I have to agree with whoever suggested that if the ladder is destroyed, the archers should be forced to go down.
Best thing would be an automatic system:
Ladder destroyed, ladder destroyed! Commencing ladderpulting of all archers in 3... 2... 1...
:mrgreen:
Bring more archers and shoot them off the roof. They are pretty exposed up there.
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Bring more archers and shoot them off the roof. They are pretty exposed up there.
High ground. Advantage. Coorelation. Military strategy. Check it out.
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How do you enforce it with out admins babysitting it?
Well, we got plenty of admins and already enforce all kinds of rules. For example, we now enforce the rule that it's not allowed to camp an unreachable spot as the last player(s) alive.
So yes, admins will have to babysit, but hey... that's nothing new now is it? We gotz plenty of admins :)
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Make ladders immune to friendly fire in Battle only, Siege/stronghold can keep the ladderpults. You placed a ladder wrongly? Tough, better hope the enemy destroy it. Change the server rules so that if enemies destroy a ladder that made a roof acessible, the players up there don't have to come down if they don't want to. There was a ladder and you destroyed it, bad luck chum.
Maybe go a step further and at the 2 minute mark a medium ladder should spawn for both teams at thier spawn, so even if there is no way up there will be if your team can hold out for a while.
Because archers having to jump down or face a kick/ban because enemies destroyed the only way up is crazy.
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Another thought i had on this:
If a ladder gets destroyed, make an undeployed ladder spawn on the ground below it.
That way, destroying the ladder forces attackers to redeploy the ladder and try again. No more unreachable roofs!
(not sure if it's technically viable to implement this, though)
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Another thought i had on this:
If a ladder gets destroyed, make an undeployed ladder spawn on the ground below it.
That way, destroying the ladder forces attackers to redeploy the ladder and try again. No more unreachable roofs!
(not sure if it's technically viable to implement this, though)
Then they wouldnt have to move down..If that is allowed to happen, battles will consist of 3min of waiting for flag, at spawn, followed by a small fight at flag..
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We would just remove all buildings from strategus and play in canyons with rock ramps leading up to everything! Yeah! :D
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We would just remove all buildings from strategus and play in canyons with rock ramps leading up to everything! Yeah! :D
Strategus? Know you tired to be funny, but that completely ruined your point.
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Strategus? Know you tired to be funny, but that completely ruined your point.
Why not?
If people are wanting to remove the ability to throw ladders in battle, then they will have zero practice for strategus which allows them everywhere, and next thing you know people will say "So I was fighting a strategus battle today in a city and those defending my old friends actually camped roofs and shit, this would NEVER happen in battle!" And then we would get posts calling for their removal too...
I am just predicting the whine that players will do in the future.
Replace all buildings in battle and strat with dirt covered buildings (hills) or tents. Problem solved for roof campers!
This sounds like a great idea, I should make a suggestion thread!
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I suggest we add other camping methods to even things up :
Infantry gets undergroundcamping. All inf can dig holes in the ground to find shelter from ranged and cav.
Cav gets aircamping. All horses can fly as high as they want, allowing cavalry to be safe from range and inf.
That way it would be balanced.
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^ agreed.
Anyone that is allowed to use the ladders have better options to whereas they should practice with them.
Like hosting the castle/village-map locally (and SIEGE), besides eu_3 has a long tradition of educating people in the art of laddering.
So i would like to call that point...moot.
Also strategus has never been a mirror/clone of the battle servers, what happens in strategus stays in strategus, and vica versa.
But sure go ahead, make that thread.
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Why not?
If people are wanting to remove the ability to throw ladders in battle, then they will have zero practice for strategus which allows them everywhere, and next thing you know people will say "So I was fighting a strategus battle today in a city and those defending my old friends actually camped roofs and shit, this would NEVER happen in battle!" And then we would get posts calling for their removal too...
"strategus battle today in a city" is called a Siege
There is a Siege server for this.
Were talking about Battle servers here.
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Its a shame but I voted yes. Would have preffered something else like making the ladders unbreakable on the battle servers.
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"strategus battle today in a city" is called a Siege
There is a Siege server for this.
Were talking about Battle servers here.
I don't see the difference. Strategus is more battle then siege considering it is impossible to cap all spawns in a city, and there is no flag.
Put me back on your ignore list bro, you seem to still be unable to keep up with my godlike intellect, so save yourself the embarrassment of trying to respond.
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I suggest we add other camping methods to even things up :
Infantry gets undergroundcamping. All inf can dig holes in the ground to find shelter from ranged and cav.
Cav gets aircamping. All horses can fly as high as they want, allowing cavalry to be safe from range and inf.
That way it would be balanced.
ToD, I see you +ed me here. Actually I wasn't trolling. Those suggestions are stupid, just to show that roofcamping is equally ridiculous.
Furthermore, the main difference between battle and siege is (or atleast should be) the maps. There's no thing like a battle in a city. It's a siege (should be named "storming" or something like that) because attackers have to climb walls and other shit. When you need to do that, you need ladders and they balance the game. In battle, no one should have to climb up buildings, so ladders are pointless.
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ToD, I see you +ed me here. Actually I wasn't trolling. Those suggestions are stupid, just to show that roofcamping is equally ridiculous.
I know man! I honestly love those ideas, then infantry can like all spring up from the ground and ambush people, or tunnel under castle walls, and then like cavalry can have cool pegasus and dragon and like giant eagle stuff and we can do "theme" battles like a LotR tournament and stuff!
Imagine like, horse archers shooting at each other while airborne!
So cool...
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I don't see the difference. Strategus is more battle then siege considering it is impossible to cap all spawns in a city, and there is no flag.
Put me back on your ignore list bro, you seem to still be unable to keep up with my godlike intellect, so save yourself the embarrassment of trying to respond.
nah "bro" i love your superme intellect answers :wink:
plus you keeping the topic up. keep posting, nobody takes you seriously anyways.
thanks.
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When did you stop ignoring him? Whata mistaka to maka...
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I believe I lost about dozen of IQ-points while reading this thread...
Anyways, I see no problem with the status quo; if there are archers on a roof, only an idiot would run to their field of fire. Anyone who gets killed by a roof-camping archer is making a service to playerkind by removing themselves from the genepool. If you are being shot at, FIND COVER! Then think of a way to get rid of those archer either by storming the roof, killing the other players to force the archer come down threathening them with admins, or wait to get the flags appear. It's really not that hard to cope with roofcampers and battles would be much more boring without ladders ( = cav wins IMO).
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Lets just make an item that makes infantry/cav immune to dmg until there is 1 min left of the battle.
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I believe I lost about dozen of IQ-points while reading this thread...
Anyways, I see no problem with the status quo; if there are archers on a roof, only an idiot would run to their field of fire. Anyone who gets killed by a roof-camping archer is making a service to playerkind by removing themselves from the genepool. If you are being shot at, FIND COVER! Then think of a way to get rid of those archer either by storming the roof, killing the other players to force the archer come down threathening them with admins, or wait to get the flags appear. It's really not that hard to cope with roofcampers and battles would be much more boring without ladders ( = cav wins IMO).
So now admins are entirely part of the gameplay, and there to balance ladders ? Also, you are blatantly contradicting yourself :
if there are archers on a roof, only an idiot would run to their field of fire
Then think of a way to get rid of those archer either by storming the roof
About this :
killing the other players
Other players with half brains will lure you into their archers fire and you'll have to retreat. Furthermore, the player on the ground could also be a cav at the other end of the map.
Your whole post is screaming how a roofcamp is hard to counter. Harder than any tactic infantry or cavalry can do, because they lack ranged weapons.
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I believe I lost about dozen of IQ-points while reading this thread...
Anyways, I see no problem with the status quo; if there are archers on a roof, only an idiot would run to their field of fire. Anyone who gets killed by a roof-camping archer is making a service to playerkind by removing themselves from the genepool. If you are being shot at, FIND COVER! Then think of a way to get rid of those archer either by storming the roof, killing the other players to force the archer come down threathening them with admins, or wait to get the flags appear. It's really not that hard to cope with roofcampers and battles would be much more boring without ladders ( = cav wins IMO).
After reading your entire post, part one seems like its head-on.
Also i find it hilarious that you are mentioning counter-camping, admin-involvement & flag as good ways to deal with roofcamping.
Camping & counter-camping promotes a cheap and boring game-play, personally i rather fight then watch the scenery for 6 minutes.
Admins should not become a everyday part of this game, they should only have to act when someone is breaking the rules and hurting the fun of other players. When we get to the point where admins need to monitor a situation 24/7, it should be clear for everyone, what needs be done. More admins is not the answer.
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been off for a few days, just a lil bump since i see more and more roof camping whine so the ppl can se the poll results
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The primary counter to camping is counter camping, or heavily outplaying the enemy team. The simple fact of the matter is that generally people choose to camp BECAUSE IT PROVIDES AN ADVANTAGE. Therefore, with an advantage that ranges from decent to MASSIVELY BROKEN STAIR OF DEATH, the camping team is logically going to win assuming equal teams unless the other team camps as well. The primary problem I have with camping is that the current "counters" mostly involve being better than the other team. I'm not going to denigrate skill or anything, I love skill and good players, but honestly, if one team HAS to be better than another to fight on EVEN footing, well... That isn't exactly fair, and in a situation like that all you can really hope for is autobalance to fuck up and put all the good guys on the anti-camp team.
This issue is terrible on unbalanced maps where one team has access to an amazing camping spot that they can get to before the enemy team can do anything about. Breakable ladders just make it so that otherwise balanced maps become unbalanced maps as soon as one team decides to camp on a handy unreachable area.
If you'd like, we can brainstorm on ways to beat a team of equal skill that has superior terrain advantage, but I think you'll be forced the conclusion that it requires counter-camping, or outthinking/playing them by a significant margin, because the tables are stacked toward the camping team. Now, it's true that we can always just camp whenever the other team does (And honestly that's what I usually end up doing), but it's boring and tends to lead to draws pretty often due to the flag timer resetting every time someone dies.
Oh, and a random sidenote for all you people who like to bring Reality up as an argument about Game Balance(Yes, I hate you), in "Reality" I could light your shitty house on fire under you, forcing you down. Or smoke you out etc in certain other situations. So, bringing up the fact that you could "realistically" hide on roofs or what have you means nothing, because "realistically" we'd have a shit ton of methods of dealing with it.
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cRPG shouldn't be balanced, it shouldn't be realistic, it should be FUN. Ladders, and Siege Shields add to the complexity of the game, making it more interesting and FUN. Sure, dirty tricks are dirty, but when you defeat that roofcamping team with even more excellent tactics, the level of satisfaction is equal to nirvana. There's nothing a ladder brings to the game that can't be countered.
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Making a poll is useless because like 50% of players are ranged.
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I voted no and I'm not ranged. I'm infact infantry without a shield.
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visitors can't see pics , please register or login
here we go again...
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I voted No just to annoy people who want them removed, because I couldn't actually care less whether there are ladders or not. Though without ladders it's going to make it so much easier for me to trample and slash archers in the face.
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it would be nice to remove ladders for 2-4 days so we can see what will happen...
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I'm cav mainly, and sometimes infantry and I basically never go on ladders, I voted "no" to keep them in the battle. I think they server a valuable purpose, and if you're an archer or crossbow, why wouldn't you want to get up on some sort of a structure?
I think the bigger issue isn't the ladders, it's always playing battle maps that have buildings in them.
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I think the bigger issue isn't the ladders, it's always playing battle maps that have buildings in them.
So the issue isn't bankrobbers, but having banks?
I'm starting to feel like the roofcamping isn't as bad in NA. Judging from my playtime, which is mostly on EU 1. Every round has an archer roof. They have a too well protected position and drag out matches.
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As people have been saying on this thread, removing all ladders will allow cavalry to go on the rampage with nothing to counter them on many maps. It used to be the case that you were not allowed to break ladders your side had placed as that constituted glitching. So either enforce that rule or else remove ladders from the game but re-draw the maps so that cav friendly maps have ladders already to a few buildings.
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So the issue isn't bankrobbers, but having banks?
I'm starting to feel like the roofcamping isn't as bad in NA. Judging from my playtime, which is mostly on EU 1. Every round has an archer roof. They have a too well protected position and drag out matches.
1) No no no ... I'm not saying that, I'm saying it's obvious why ranged units would get off the ground away from infantry and cavalry, and also get a better view and shots of the battlefield. I don't think we should take away that obvious and natural choice for ranged units. I'm saying if we want to play maps without people on buildings, play some maps that don't all have buildings and structures on it. Make your ranged use terrain instead of buildings once in a while to mix it up.
2) I don't think roofcamping is as bad as people say it is, at least not in the NA-CRPG1 battle server. You still have a handful of people on roofs every round, but I never see it being so bad that you can't get them down if the rest of their team is dead.
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it would be nice to remove ladders for 2-4 days so we can see what will happen...
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hmm.. yes. test it! can't hurt.
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removing ladders = more teamwork = more fun :idea:
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removing ladders = more teamwork = more fun :idea:
In what fantasy world is that going to happen?
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In what fantasy world is that going to happen?
hope never dies... :rolleyes:
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As people have been saying on this thread, removing all ladders will allow cavalry to go on the rampage with nothing to counter them on many maps. It used to be the case that you were not allowed to break ladders your side had placed as that constituted glitching. So either enforce that rule or else remove ladders from the game but re-draw the maps so that cav friendly maps have ladders already to a few buildings.
Agreed that for some maps there's a need for some ladders not give cavalry a too good time. But generally ranged just need to shoot horses more. Most horses go down in just a few arrows/bolts/throwing-whatevers if people can be arsed to shoot at them, and since two-handed swords at the moment outreach lances when thrusting, and people can carry a 1wpf pike or bamboo spear to deter horses, it's not a that big deal.