Why should 1h weapons be faster than any other weapon in the game on average?
Why should 1h weapons be faster than any other weapon in the game on average?
Buff normal sword speed to 100/101 from 99. Right now just side sword is an option, other swords with 94/95 are subpar compared to it.
:rolleyes:
Severant, you seem to have a very DnD inspired view of two handed swords.
and UrLukur, you're just flat out wrong. Polearms and 2h weapons are placed at similar speeds to 1h weapons. In fact, 1h weapons actually currently already hold the fastest weapons in the game.
Why would you want to play guitar when the cello is on an untouched holy ground?
because 1) you can swing something a one handed weapon faster that a 2 handed weapon IRL (faster = start to finish of a swing not velocity) and 2) 2 hand/ Pole arms already have the reach and damage, they don't also need speed
Now the most common excuse why 2handers and poles have all 3 of those advantages is that they can't block range.. this is strait bs because almost ALL the pole / 2handers i see carry a shield on thier back that they use to close with ranged ppl then pull out thier 2 handers and spam them to death. So you can't use that excuse anymore.
Dagger ? dont invalidate your arguments :D
Side sword looks shitty and does not fit many characters, its fuckin late weapon, ya know ? And it's design is not that superior anyway.
:rolleyes:
Severant, you seem to have a very DnD inspired view of two handed swords.
and UrLukur, you're just flat out wrong. Polearms and 2h weapons are placed at similar speeds to 1h weapons. In fact, 1h weapons actually currently already hold the fastest weapons in the game.
Take a sword and swing it in one hand
Okay feel that?
Now use both your hands
Wow way easier eh?
Swinging faster?
Yes, yes you are.
Okay, end of debate.
Take a sword and swing it in one hand
Okay feel that?
Now use both your hands
Wow way easier eh?
Swinging faster?
Yes, yes you are.
Okay, end of debate.
See the problem with your logic is the 2 handed weapons weigh 3 times as much as the one handed weapons
Long Dagger mind you. I actually have a character built around this weapon.
Don't like daggers? How about a short sword? 102 speed, good pierce and enough cut to go along with it. Want something longer? Got a little extra cash? Short arming sword. 103 speed. Nomad Sabre. Oh and these are all VERY affordable and can damage people in decent armor.
Ya, I'm just not buying that whole "1h weapons are so slow!!!!!!" cry that people are having. It has never been a problem with my character.
Mind you, I play both a sword and shield character and a polearm character. The speed between the two is comparable.
See the problem with your logic is the 2 handed weapons weigh 3 times as much as the one handed weapons. so what i SHOULD do is take three of the weapons iw as swinging with one hand and swing it with two.Bull, 2h weight about as much as 1h (5/10% more) when we talk about longswords. 2h are faster irl than 1h as you have better leverage. But irl you can block with shield while attacking.
If you haven't noticed, the weapons you can with 2 handed and one handed do have speed nerf when handled in 1 hand. But 2 handed weapons weigh alot more which creates alot more inertia... thus the answer to why they are two handed.
I have both a broadsword and a scottish claymore, and the claymore weighs at least twice as much. It's impossible to swing it with one hand, not only because it is much heavier, but also because it has a different weight distribution.
my bad I just read a lot of the new posts on the forums lately have seemed to be about shielders not being able to hold their own against 2h/pole which I think is silly because I use 2h and have used pole and I get schooled by shielders who know what they're doing.
I'm not saying I'm good but I can block one or 2 things most times :P
I do agree with you though most 2h swords are far too heavy and long to be swung as fast and frequently as they are.
but the 2h weapons that are the same size as one handed swords, like the bastard sword, should swing like they do, I mean its the same size and weight (practically) and you're using 2 hands.. I guess I should have made my point more specific when I first commented aha doy.
you guys realize that even if you win this debate, youre still retarded, right?
IRL comments about game balance are auto lose
They swing faster due to animations. They have better reach, also thanks to animations.
I feel that greatswords should be nerfed in damage and speed, and longswords are more or less fine as they are - i would like to see more variety of longswords, some XIIIa (oakeshott) would be great.
Katana, 102 speed, 95 reach (actually more, due to animations). 36 cut (can turn into swing more, so successful attacks are faster).
Those weapon you listed have way shorter true reach, and can't turn into swings so much, so are slower than 1h.
2h users have more points to convert (don't need to invest in shield, can do fine with few points in ps), so 2h characters swing their weapons faster.
I ask you a question. Why other swords with range between 94 and 95 should be gimped when there is already 1h sword with 95 reach and 101 speed that have very high damage output ? Why other 94/95 reach swords should be inferior ?
Game balance wise, it's not good that 2h are so much faster than 1h.
For the Katana: it only does 36 cut damage. There are 1h that do similar damage. I know you hate to hear this phrase, but it is plenty valid: Katana's don't have the luxury to use a shield.
It has speed, it has mediocre reach, but its damage is on the lower side and it can't use a shield. It doesn't exceed in all areas.
Turning into a swing does give you a slight speed benefit, but the last major patch of warband added sweet spots, making this less of an issue. People who are aware of this technique tend to overestimate the speed benefit it gives. Also, most people aren't aware of this either, but you get the same speed benefit regardless of the size of the weapon, but it is much more difficult to do with a shorter weapon.
The converted skill points into stat points I will hand to you, but there is certainly a major trade off for that: the infantry 2h user becomes much more vulnerable to arrows. On my characters that use a two handed weapon (either polearm or 2h skill) I still put points into shield so I can carry one on my back in the event I need to use it for archer cover. Also, the additional stat points converted would at most be between 2-5 extra stat points... which translates to 1%-2.5% faster. If you are using a German Greatsword (formerly pike of tears) that would translate into an effective speed of 95 at most.
To be honest, we can probably go back and forward with this all night and most likely not get anywhere. It really boils down to value in my opinion. I play with both and I find both to have their trade-offs.
As for the feint issue: this is actually a problem with shields, and not their counter-parts. A quick-fix solution would be to just raise the shield speed across the board, and that would have no negative or overpowering affect in the greater scheme of things. If you raise the speed for 1h weapons you create the potential for the resurrection of the spammitars, and throw off the balance of the game.
use a scottish sword or a (tempered) side sword, both are very fast, I alternate between them on 1h
scottish is a little short but its thrust is long enough to do what you need to do(poke bar mace guy in the face), and the slash is decent too
theres also a super fast asian sword, but its so short I've never tried it
Elite Scimitar 6243
weight 1.25
requirement 7
spd rtng 99
weapon length 100
swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Nordic Champion's Sword 7842
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce
Long Espada Eslavona 8026
weight 1.25
requirement 10
spd rtng 98
weapon length 103
swing damage 29, cut
thrust damage 28 pierce
Italian Sword 5236
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 99
weapon length 98
swing damage 30, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
German Greatsword 11686
weight 2.5
requirement 14
spd rtng 93
weapon length 123
swing damage 38, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode
Miaodao 8030
weight 2.75
requirement 10
spd rtng 96
weapon length 115
swing damage 40, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Uhm apart from Katana, where the hell did you see that 2handed weapons are faster? Yeah coupled with shields they might seems so, but that's something related to shield speed not 1handed being slow... and with a shield you have a way better chance to survive from ranged and when facing more than enemy at once...
I already explained why it seems so:ok those are the weak sides of the 1handed (even some are quite wrong, turning doesn't increase damage, it was tested and there's a topic about that somewhere in the TW forum), but you fail to consider that there are also good notes in 1h and board.
-more efficient build, can have more wfp on the same level
-can turn into swing more, as they have more raw damage to overcome sweet spots
-can attack first, so 2h user can release attack first
-have more weight so stun 1h users
-have better animations, that seems to have less harsh sweet spots
-there is no point going 1h without shield, why bother if you can use Katana or Longsword that both deal more damage, have way better range, way better animations and you can always use some stupid other 2h weapon, like mallet or maul, if it strikes you fancy.
ok those are the weak sides of the 1handed (even some are quite wrong, turning doesn't increase damage, it was tested and there's a topic about that somewhere in the TW forum), but you fail to consider that there are also good notes in 1h and board.
-it's way easier to block with a shield
-you have more possibiliy to survive against 2 or more opponents
-you are protecded from ranged
-2handed can't stun much anymore in crpg due the increased weight of most of the shields.
-without a shield you are actually faster than everything but the katana
2handed and shielders have different roles in battlfield, ok in 1vs1 2handed might be slightly better but in the overall balance of a battle I find the shielders much more important than 2handed: without them it's really hard for 2handers to get into the melee.
Seems like you don't understand, turning doesnt increase damage, it DECREASE it. But also it gives SPEED.
-it's not obvious that shield allow better blocking. From some perspective, yes, from other, it's awful.
-like 2h, 2h have more chances actually.
-like 2h who is not in combat and use shield
-not really faster, on par, counting stun. on the other hand lack damage and reach so sucks and is plain inferior.
ok those are the weak sides of the 1handed (even some are quite wrong, turning doesn't increase damage, it was tested and there's a topic about that somewhere in the TW forum), but you fail to consider that there are also good notes in 1h and board.
-it's way easier to block with a shield
-you have more possibiliy to survive against 2 or more opponents
-you are protecded from ranged
-2handed can't stun much anymore in crpg due the increased weight of most of the shields.
-without a shield you are actually faster than everything but the katana
2handed and shielders have different roles in battlfield, ok in 1vs1 2handed might be slightly better but in the overall balance of a battle I find the shielders much more important than 2handed: without them it's really hard for 2handers to get into the melee.
Wtf does any of that even mean? Writing paragraphs in point form = fail.
'-it's not obvious that shield allow better blocking. From some perspective, yes, from other, it's awful.'
What the hell is that supposed to mean? How the hell can a shield allow better blocking from some perspectives but not from others? Maybe if the person with the shield has a broken second mouse button...? How is it awful in anyway? Shield is the easiest and most useful form of blocking in c-RPG. To argue against that is just ludicrous, bro.
'2h have more chances'
How? Anyone who uses a 2h wep as their main but carries a shield has obviously sacrificed WPF and skill points to wield the shield so in fact they have a disadvantage against someone who's pure sword/board. It's much harder then you'd imagine avoiding damage without carrying a shield. You need great footwork and it helps having a decent pc/ping.
I can't understand your terrible argument bro... are you trying to say you think 1h speed needs a buff? That's what I'm thinkin you're saying and I can't help but lmao hard. Rerry hard.
So which 2h's are you saying are faaaar superior to 1h speed/dmg? You're failing to grasp the concept that when you're wielding a shield AND a weapon, you have penalties.
If you have footwork problems, I feel bad for ya son but, I got 99 problems and getting a hit aint one.
Play more, bitch less?
nonono
i have been playing 1h very successfully lately and they dont need a speed buff at all - and im only fighting with 130 wpf and 14 agi
its really easy to spam people with my 1h - as easy as with 2h
^This.
Does this invalidate my thread ? No.
Don't just look at the thread name, read it.
1h do fine with side sword and side sword, other 95 range swords sucks. GET IT ?
Also, i'm one of the best sword and board users, so you fail.
WTF you people think it's about buffing 1h swords speed in general. It's just about buffing speed of least used weapons like simple sword, sword, nordic sword, arming sword, nordic warsword etc. WTF you guys don't understand ?
Why don't you respond to my post, instead you are plain wrong in your opinions.
Why not gather together a decent rebuttal for my real post instead of the one word post? Because you know I'm right and you fail *smacks head* :shock:
Why the hell would they need to buff speeds of less used swords that cost WAY less...?
So a 2,000 gold sword should have the same stats as a 8,000 gold sword?
Dude, you fail.
You're one of the best sword and boarders? Do you play N/A? What's your character name?
THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR INCREASING SWORD SPEEDS ABOVE CURRENT BEST SWORD IN THE RANGE (101). IT IS TO CREATE INTERNAL BALANCE IN SWORD CATEGORY, RIGHT NOW ONE SWORD (side sword) IS PLAIN SUPERIOR TO THE OTHER SWORDS WITH SIMILAR RANGE. I WANT THE OTHER SWORDS BUFFED TO BRING BACK INTERNAL BALANCE TO THIS CLASS OF WEAPONS.
GET IT ?
(click to show/hide)
HUEG RED LETTERZLulz.
It's not that 1h swords need a speed buff, it's that shields do. The game is treating shield users like retards who can't use two arms independently at the same time. This shouldn't be a penalty; it's why 1h/shielders get spammed to death rather than actually gaining this supposed survivability against multiple opponents that everyone keeps bullshitting about.
As someone who currently plays my shielder most, I have this to say:Which one ? Op ? No, in grand scheme of things it would just bring item variety back as it would not boost Side Sword, but will make other swords competetive (those weapons would be still worse than side sword, but gap would be smaller).
This is an incredibly stupid idea because it would take away all semblance of balance from the game. I would rape with this. Over and over again, and so with every other competent shielder.
Over and over.
Your whining worked, the best 2H swords were nerfed, a lot of stupid 1H now have 102 speed (while the katana is the only 1h weapon with 102 speed, the others being far behind). Now stop whining and gtfo.
It's not whining you nub. Those swords deserved such speed nerf, possibly even more - see what phyrex do with dannish greatsword, and of course damage nerf.
I didn't asked for boosting swords with 3 attack direction. i asked for boosting those with 4, and 95/94 range.
Katana beats those hands down.
You are swinging 95 length 1.5 weapons as fast as a katana but you're doing it in one hand. I think we should stop the whine now.
Also, i feel they should bring parry back (as stun is also responsible for outspamming 1h users). to ping-pong stun back.Which one ? Op ? No, in grand scheme of things it would just bring item variety back as it would not boost Side Sword, but will make other swords competetive (those weapons would be still worse than side sword, but gap would be smaller).
They're already competitive. All the latter end 1h are fine. If they're not, you're just getting your sense of timing wrong. If they were faster, they'd be attacking with the same rate as a 2-hander, and there'd be absolutely no reason to be a 2-hander.
2h sweapons should be slower than 1h anyway...just imagine the scale. 2h weapons are larger but faster to swing?! cmon-_-
2h sweapons should be slower than 1h anyway...just imagine the scale. 2h weapons are larger but faster to swing?! cmon-_-
whether thats true or not - from a balance point of view it would be uncool for 2h to have to manual block and be slower than 1h wouldnt it?From balance point, those very long swords should be indeed slower. Those are support weapons, not 1 vs 1 weapon.
Actually its way easier to swing a bigger weapon in real life with two hands than a smaller weapon with one hand especially when you carry a heavy shield as well.
But realism is not an argument in crpg.
Balance is.
Shielders should stop whining.
You can hide behind your shield, what gives you a huge advantage seeing how many rangers are around.
Even in 1 vs 1 the average 1hshielder will win against an average 2hswordsman (crush through and 1hitshieldbreaking poleaxes are a different story).
The reason why 2hs often own 1hshielders is simple. They are better players. Everyone starts with shield. After some months the for fun player get bored and mostly seek a greater challenge, manuell block.
Power players, that want to be as effective as possible, want their team help to win, or simply gain the fun out of winning and owning will stick with 1hshield simply because its easier.
Just watch good 1hshielders (Dima, Paul, Olwen, Phazey, Varjag, Bjord with his alt Fencer). More than once I have seen them alone roll a group of 3 or more Ninjas.
As a shielder, you need to be aggressive, stress the 2h, then he makes mistakes.
Most 1hshielders play way to passive, so that a random dude can swing, back-pedal, swing, back-pedal.
Just hiding behind your shield is not an option.
Use it to block the first swing, then push forward and spam like crazy. Doesnt even need much "skill", its mostly about experience.
Katana 8212
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce Almost useless.
Side Sword 8922
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
Side sword is OP, needs a nerf. Katana is NO SHIELD (nerfed completely if used with a shield), the main advantage is speed, and a freakin 1 hander almost just as fast with the same length. Using 2 hands only give 1 more speed, and 3 more damage, actually loosing 8 thrust damage.
It's not that 1h swords need a speed buff, it's that shields do. The game is treating shield users like retards who can't use two arms independently at the same time. This shouldn't be a penalty; it's why 1h/shielders get spammed to death rather than actually gaining this supposed survivability against multiple opponents that everyone keeps bullshitting about.
Still, the topic has been beaten to death and for the most part most people play 2her or polearm and feel that either:
1h/shields are fine
1h/shields are OP
1h/shields are ez-mode trash and fuck them.
In swing as well? (useless) Thrust of course, but idk if its a lot of range bonus in the swing.
1 hander can also turn into swings.
Stun?? The kata is lighter than the Side Sword.
Sweet spots, look above.
Yes 3 more damage in the swings, but side sword has 8 more in the thrust.
Slower with shield? Take away the shield..
Shielders can also wear less armor and gain more wpf for much better protection than the average black armor tin-can.
Fact is, many 1 handers are damn fast, and they are harder to block than most 2 handers or polearms. They also start their swings hidden behind shields, and because of shields, super-easy to block with. ANYWAY:
The advantages of playing with shields and 1h weapons, are so great, there should be a serious speed, damage, and range penalty..
Your way to the top of the kill-list is different than with a 2h/polearm though. When a polearmer can throw on some proper armor, a great heirloomed long something, and manual block, chamber-swing and generally rape their way to the top score, shielders must have patience, choose their battles, play smart, and be aware. Your advantage is not firepower, but protection and time.
Look to Gnjus. He is 1-shot capping experienced 2h/polarm blockers by a surprise left swing to their head all the time.
I kill a lot of shielders, and the only reason i do so is their noobishness. I use my speed to walk left-right left-right, and they don't follow with their shield. So i get a hit to their back . How hard is it to simply move your mouse left and right? In a long duel, I will surely loose, because chances are that in an exchange, I will miss a block 1-2 times before their shield breaks.
There is hardly any reason to take the Katana over a 1h weapon anymore. If you buff them further I don't see the point of using a fast-short 2 hander anymore. (Situation is of course different with the longer 2h/polearms. I can see why you want to be faster than them, and they should imo generally be slower, and if you rephrase your opinion to that, i'll agree :-)
I reckon, we either need to ignore the complaints of the 1hers who don't pump agi (lest they get there wishes and high agi becomes even more OP) or the difference in speed between high and low agi should be brought down a bit.
From balance point, those very long swords should be indeed slower. Those are support weapons, not 1 vs 1 weapon.
Beside, they have stun.
As a shielder, you need to be aggressive, stress the 2h, then he makes mistakes.
Most 1hshielders play way to passive, so that a random dude can swing, back-pedal, swing, back-pedal.
i think 2h only stun if you hold the attack - polearms do it a lot more and no1 can stun you by hitting your shield can they?
...
You're completely bypassing the fact that 2hers actually gain more benefit from agi stacking than 2hers do as for one: No need to waste points on a shield skill, allowing them to increase it further. And two: 2h animations are far superior, which exacerbates the speed issue of high agi/wpf even more.
It wasn't agi-stacking 1hers that were breaking the game pre-patch, but agi stacking 2hers. :wink:
Look to Gnjus. He is 1-shot capping experienced 2h/polarm blockers by a surprise left swing to their head all the time.
i think 2h only stun if you hold the attack - polearms do it a lot more and no1 can stun you by hitting your shield can they?
2h have never been support they are the damage dealers
i wouldnt exactly say 1h are support either but if a 1h and 2h are fighting an enemy and they're working as a team it usually makes sense for the 1h to be more defensive and the 2h to kill (unless the opponent is really going after the 2h)
i have got a decent 1h but i havent played it today so i dunno if i will feel the difference or not but i didnt find any problems fighting 2h's
i get spammed by agi katana's on any char i use so if your beef is with them then just focus on katana's
rofl... that is only 1 of the chapters of The Way
As for the rest - unless someone is making alts then the 1hs are seeing better and better players
more and more of them can feint fast and really get in my face and make it hard for me to beat them without some other factor like bounce/luck/team mate etc
i play my 1h like i see them play and it works quite well
1h can spam just as good as a 2h - and i 1 hit people with a slash to the face wit 6ps and a standard knightly arming sword
Since when did pridecrusher use 2hands and balbWhat are we talking about. I thought we were talking about legitimate problems with weapon speeds. Apparently though you're just talking about people who do well? If that's the case there's still more 2hers/polearm users that can be put on the list. Just let me know if we're going to talk about the real issue or sling names of players with high kdr's. :rolleyes:
Also trolling me on ur alt made me sad and not in the mood to donate ever again think next time before u rage
I got stunned by 2h quite often with my light shield.
2h are support, they excel in situations where they attack and have numerical advantage. They deal high amount of damage, but i feel it's unjustified amount, they should deal less - right now they deal 1.5/4 times as much damage against most targets (first against less armored, second against best armors).
Even i killed you multiple times with Cybele.
1h can't really spam against 2h weapons that have more speed than 90, heck, even feints against those are risky as 2h user can just attack 2 times in a row even without really good footwork. 2h on the other hand can do it risk free (assuming his build does not have more wasted points in wpf than 1h).
There's a feinting technique that some 1-handers use that allow for some serious spam. It's different from 2h/polearm feint spam. I'm currently trying to figure out how to get the timing right. When I do, I'll let you know. Until then, look for players who do it and then tell me 1h can't spam against 2h weapons.
I was almost positive that oggrog was u since he was using my irl name that of course ats has access to since I gave to the server added to the fact that no verbal warning was given for basically complete bs
Yeah, um no. That's not me. I don't know your real name (nor do I care to, I don't have anything to do with the server donation stuff) and if you're talking about a kick or ban, I always let the person know it's about to happen.
Interesting story though.
Well I am relieved then it upset me more when i thought it was u than that someone now has a irl personal hatred of meh
To return to the topic the only problem I see with pushing up one handers speed too much is eventually someone is gonna run the ultimate build pure melee near 18 point conversion only ps wm build(I.e pridecrusher or me) and destroy
To return to the topic the only problem I see with pushing up one handers speed too much is ur gonna end up pushing all the dueling into one hand because honestly why use a masterwork katana vs a masterwork sidesword basically same damage and speed except one is fully shield usable and other has a malus
Cut Damage from light weapons such as the side sword, elite scimitar etc. would be completely useless against chainmail and even leather in some situations. I think that it would be fine to buff 1h sword speed but increase armor effectiveness. Armor seems fairly useless right now.
I use a balanced iberian mace and it sucks ass. Too short, too slow so i use a regular sword and kill alot more. I say buff the 1h maces!(especially the iberian one *wink wink) :D
The most common used weapons by medieval knights were the battle axe, maces/clubs, broadswords, picks. Why not buff these also cause they seem fairly useless with armor being useless.
Buffing 1h speed would only lead to problems from good 1h'd players who use it without a shield in duels. Granted it'd still be short on range and damage vs any 2her/polearm user but the ability to abuse spam advantage would be quite high. Instead I'll recommend again that the speed of shields is what should be increased, as this is the primary problem in every "1h too slow, get spammed" post. And it's somewhat understandable. I have pumped 7 points into the shield skill, hoping for a good increase in speed, but tbh it's not really worth going past what you need for the shield.
I've also tried using smaller, less powerful shields that are faster in order to be more effective in melee (without resorting to the side sword/spammitar). However there's a reason you still see 90% of the shielders going with the huscarl. The speed difference between the faster shields and the huscarl isn't great enough while the durability and coverage of the huscarl is far greater. Obviously, it is the best shield overall and that's why everyone uses it. If the smaller shields (cav shields, kite shields, heater shields, etc) were given a speed increase you might see more melee oriented 1hers make the switch and fare better in melee, while becoming more succeptable to range. Fair trade-off imo.
Just my 2 cents though.