Author Topic: Buff 1h swords speed  (Read 9729 times)

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Offline UrLukur

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2011, 04:20:13 am »
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I have both a broadsword and a scottish claymore, and the claymore weighs at least twice as much. It's impossible to swing it with one hand, not only because it is much heavier, but also because it has a different weight distribution.

Claymore is not dueling weapon, it's formation weapon. I feel it's too fast in cRPG as are other greatswords and great maul (that need serious nerf).

Also, how heavy is your Broadsword, it's based on some historical broadsword ? Ditto with claymore.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 04:22:29 am by UrLukur »
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Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2011, 04:21:52 am »
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my bad I just read a lot of the new posts on the forums lately have seemed to be about shielders not being able to hold their own against 2h/pole which I think is silly because I use 2h and have used pole and I get schooled by shielders who know what they're doing.
I'm not saying I'm good but I can block one or 2 things most times :P

I do agree with you though most 2h swords are far too heavy and long to be swung as fast and frequently as they are.

but the 2h weapons that are the same size as one handed swords, like the bastard sword, should swing like they do, I mean its the same size and weight (practically) and you're using 2 hands.. I guess I should have made my point more specific when I first commented aha doy.

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2011, 04:25:27 am »
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my bad I just read a lot of the new posts on the forums lately have seemed to be about shielders not being able to hold their own against 2h/pole which I think is silly because I use 2h and have used pole and I get schooled by shielders who know what they're doing.
I'm not saying I'm good but I can block one or 2 things most times :P

I do agree with you though most 2h swords are far too heavy and long to be swung as fast and frequently as they are.

but the 2h weapons that are the same size as one handed swords, like the bastard sword, should swing like they do, I mean its the same size and weight (practically) and you're using 2 hands.. I guess I should have made my point more specific when I first commented aha doy.

They swing faster due to animations. They have better reach, also thanks to animations.

I feel that greatswords should be nerfed in damage and speed, and longswords are more or less fine as they are - i would like to see more variety of longswords, some XIIIa (oakeshott) would be great.
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Offline duurrr

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2011, 04:25:33 am »
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you guys realize that even if you win this debate, youre still retarded, right?

IRL comments about game balance are auto lose

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2011, 04:29:13 am »
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you guys realize that even if you win this debate, youre still retarded, right?

IRL comments about game balance are auto lose

They are not. chadz owe us flying carpets already, i dunno, maybe he will implement battle donkeys next time we talk about real life ?
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Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2011, 04:30:52 am »
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They swing faster due to animations. They have better reach, also thanks to animations.

I feel that greatswords should be nerfed in damage and speed, and longswords are more or less fine as they are - i would like to see more variety of longswords, some XIIIa (oakeshott) would be great.

agreed the animations increase their speed and reach

Agreed greatswords should be nerfed in speed and damage.

Agreed, more variety of longswords PLEASE. Also, SHEATHES with these LONGSWORDS. :P lol



Offline Seawied

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2011, 05:48:29 am »
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Katana, 102 speed, 95 reach (actually more, due to animations). 36 cut (can turn into swing more, so successful attacks are faster).
Those weapon you listed have way shorter true reach, and can't turn into swings so much, so are slower than 1h.

2h users have more points to convert (don't need to invest in shield, can do fine with few points in ps), so 2h characters swing their weapons faster.

I ask you a question. Why other swords with range between 94 and 95 should be gimped when there is already 1h sword with 95 reach and 101 speed that have very high damage output ? Why other 94/95 reach swords should be inferior ?
Game balance wise, it's not good that 2h are so much faster than 1h.

A decent argument in favor of 1h improvements.

For the Katana: it only does 36 cut damage. There are 1h that do similar damage. I know you hate to hear this phrase, but it is plenty valid: Katana's don't have the luxury to use a shield.

It has speed, it has mediocre reach, but its damage is on the lower side and it can't use a shield. It doesn't exceed in all areas.

Turning into a swing does give you a slight speed benefit, but the last major patch of warband added sweet spots, making this less of an issue. People who are aware of this technique tend to overestimate the speed benefit it gives. Also, most people aren't aware of this either, but you get the same speed benefit regardless of the size of the weapon, but it is much more difficult to do with a shorter weapon.



The converted skill points into stat points I will hand to you, but there is certainly a major trade off for that: the infantry 2h user becomes much more vulnerable to arrows. On my characters that use a two handed weapon (either polearm or 2h skill) I still put points into shield so I can carry one on my back in the event I need to use it for archer cover. Also, the additional stat points converted would at most be between 2-5 extra stat points... which translates to 1%-2.5% faster. If you are using a German Greatsword (formerly Sword of Tears) that would translate into an effective speed of 95 at most.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2011, 06:39:01 am »
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For the Katana: it only does 36 cut damage. There are 1h that do similar damage. I know you hate to hear this phrase, but it is plenty valid: Katana's don't have the luxury to use a shield.

It has speed, it has mediocre reach, but its damage is on the lower side and it can't use a shield. It doesn't exceed in all areas.

Turning into a swing does give you a slight speed benefit, but the last major patch of warband added sweet spots, making this less of an issue. People who are aware of this technique tend to overestimate the speed benefit it gives. Also, most people aren't aware of this either, but you get the same speed benefit regardless of the size of the weapon, but it is much more difficult to do with a shorter weapon.



The converted skill points into stat points I will hand to you, but there is certainly a major trade off for that: the infantry 2h user becomes much more vulnerable to arrows. On my characters that use a two handed weapon (either polearm or 2h skill) I still put points into shield so I can carry one on my back in the event I need to use it for archer cover. Also, the additional stat points converted would at most be between 2-5 extra stat points... which translates to 1%-2.5% faster. If you are using a German Greatsword (formerly pike of tears) that would translate into an effective speed of 95 at most.

I hate to hear it. 36 cut is plenty, no 1h reach that much.

It have speed, more true reach than most of 1h, damage is decent enough, can be used with shield against archers. Its's quite good, very good actually.

I know about it, thing is, it's still very helpful. Higher damage of 2h partially offset sweet spots. Also, 2h have more efficient stabs that deal more damage on average thanks to superior animation (on the other hand, 1h have nice left swing that nicely fit with opponent's head, but is quite short).

If we want to argue about greatswords, fine, just keep in mind that those have awesome damage that allow them to even more avoid sweet spots and  inflict decent stun, so effective speed in melee (if greatsword user is capable and strike first) is higher (keep in mind that shield slow down 1h feinting, making it easier to block, and harm footwork, making it hard to position yourself well).

Still, my suggestion was not about increasing maximum speed for 1h class, it was rather meant to bring more variety to the character builds, and make mid-tier, and high-tier normal reach 1h a decent weapons that are not so much worse than side sword that have 101 speed (it's rather high value for such flimsy weapon that deal so much damage)
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Offline Seawied

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2011, 07:19:35 am »
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To be honest, we can probably go back and forward with this all night and most likely not get anywhere. It really boils down to value in my opinion. I play with both and I find both to have their trade-offs.

As for the feint issue: this is actually a problem with shields, and not their counter-parts. A quick-fix solution would be to just raise the shield speed across the board, and that would have no negative or overpowering affect in the greater scheme of things. If you raise the speed for 1h weapons you create the potential for the resurrection of the spammitars, and throw off the balance of the game.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2011, 07:28:18 am »
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To be honest, we can probably go back and forward with this all night and most likely not get anywhere. It really boils down to value in my opinion. I play with both and I find both to have their trade-offs.

As for the feint issue: this is actually a problem with shields, and not their counter-parts. A quick-fix solution would be to just raise the shield speed across the board, and that would have no negative or overpowering affect in the greater scheme of things. If you raise the speed for 1h weapons you create the potential for the resurrection of the spammitars, and throw off the balance of the game.

Point is, this suggestion does not want to increase speed above 101 for swords, and 101 is already available in game via side sword. It would just bring more variety as people would have choice between many swords, currently, if they want 4 attacks directions and 94+ reach sword they have not many options, and even then they are outclassed by sidesword. It's cool that weapon with 95 reach is now mainstream, but some variety is needed.

Increasing speed stat of shield was many times suggested, as well as decreasing weight of shields in general and/or adding new shields.
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Offline Astinus

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 07:56:07 am »
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Elite Scimitar   6243   
weight 1.25
requirement 7
spd rtng 99
weapon length 100

swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce

Nordic Champion's Sword   7842   
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102

swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce

Long Espada Eslavona   8026   
weight 1.25
requirement 10
spd rtng 98
weapon length 103

swing damage 29, cut
thrust damage 28 pierce

Italian Sword   5236   
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 99
weapon length 98

swing damage 30, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

German Greatsword   11686   
weight 2.5
requirement 14
spd rtng 93
weapon length 123

swing damage 38, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

Miaodao   8030   
weight 2.75
requirement 10
spd rtng 96
weapon length 115
swing damage 40, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback
   

Uhm apart from Katana, where the hell did you see that 2handed weapons are faster? Yeah coupled with shields they might seems so, but that's something related to shield speed not 1handed being slow... and with a shield you have a way better chance to survive from ranged and when facing more than enemy at once...
   
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Offline Vygar

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2011, 04:03:53 pm »
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I think that the animations are partly to blame, apart from statistics.  2H Animations appear to more efficient than the current 1h animations which is why they appear faster.  Additionally, there is no way to "pinch" 2H or Polearms as even when you're in their face, they still do their full damage.  From a game play stand point, this shouldn't be so.  2h/Pole should have the advantage of reach but suffer in close combat just like 1h/shield users have to fight the animation transition from lowering their shield to initiating their swing.

Offline DrKronic

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2011, 04:12:28 pm »
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use a scottish sword or a (tempered) side sword, both are very fast, I alternate between them on 1h

scottish is a little short but its thrust is long enough to do what you need to do(poke bar mace guy in the face), and the slash is decent too

theres also a super fast asian sword, but its so short I've never tried it
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Offline UrLukur

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2011, 11:39:19 pm »
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use a scottish sword or a (tempered) side sword, both are very fast, I alternate between them on 1h

scottish is a little short but its thrust is long enough to do what you need to do(poke bar mace guy in the face), and the slash is decent too

theres also a super fast asian sword, but its so short I've never tried it

Why you don't get that point of the thread is to make non-side swords viable choices ? I don't want even faster 1h, i want more 1h that are just are fast or with 100 speed, so they are worth taking.
Elite Scimitar   6243   
weight 1.25
requirement 7
spd rtng 99
weapon length 100

swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce

Nordic Champion's Sword   7842   
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102

swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce

Long Espada Eslavona   8026   
weight 1.25
requirement 10
spd rtng 98
weapon length 103

swing damage 29, cut
thrust damage 28 pierce

Italian Sword   5236   
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 99
weapon length 98

swing damage 30, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

German Greatsword   11686   
weight 2.5
requirement 14
spd rtng 93
weapon length 123

swing damage 38, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

Miaodao   8030   
weight 2.75
requirement 10
spd rtng 96
weapon length 115
swing damage 40, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback
   

Uhm apart from Katana, where the hell did you see that 2handed weapons are faster? Yeah coupled with shields they might seems so, but that's something related to shield speed not 1handed being slow... and with a shield you have a way better chance to survive from ranged and when facing more than enemy at once...
   

I already explained why it seems so:
-more efficient build, can have more wfp on the same level
-can turn into swing more, as they have more raw damage to overcome sweet spots
-can attack first, so 2h user can release attack first
-have more weight so stun 1h users
-have better animations, that seems to have less harsh sweet spots
-there is no point going 1h without shield, why bother if you can use Katana or Longsword that both deal more damage, have way better range, way better animations and you can always use some stupid other 2h weapon, like mallet or maul, if it strikes you fancy.
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Offline Lordark

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2011, 11:48:51 pm »
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If you cant use 1h and shield well enuf then you must have no offensive skill as well as defence skill *cant manual block 4 shit*
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