Author Topic: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------  (Read 12659 times)

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Offline San

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2014, 05:58:45 am »
0
I usually regret posting like this, but I try to get to some understandings anyways. Had this post sitting here for like 6 hours, might as well post it anyways..

Imo headshots are too random in this game to make them any more powerful than they are atm - the opposite in fact. I hate dieing to headshots as much as I lol at killing people with random headshots. Why not just punish bad never-release-w-cav with heavier speed bonus? As I've tried to say over and over, it causes no problems against infantry (the nerf was fine) and actually makes smart cav survive longer. I can't see the downside.........
Headshots against horses work differently than headshots against melee. Headshots against a horse is like a throw against 0 armour. Headshots against infantry multiplies final damage (which is not random). A thrower's raw damage is going to be 60-80. The hurtbox of the horse headshot is off, so throwing into a horse's eye isn't going to count. It's only located at the nose right now.

This is the problem I have with the speed bonus. The multipliers that allow damage extremes to 130+raw can be used by horse ranged to vastly multiply damage with little risk, even with lower base damage. The ranged vs cavalry problem is eased (worse against cav that ride away) at the cost of making horse ranged vs infantry worse. The possibility of a middleground between current speed bonus and old bonus may be possible to get changed, though.

If I recall correctly, I remember good cav received even less damage when using speed bonus to their advantage. I remember last year being able to get my rouncey to survive multiple throwing lances. Speed bonus was something that really only hurt bad cav that charged poorly.

What makes me question the speedbonusnerf is the fact that the horsearmour and HP were adjusted to the damage they take while charging a ranged enemy.
Now with the decreased speedbonus this means that all horses are too well armoured.

I think this is an impact of the Speedbonusnerf you overlooked.

As a result of this Jarids as anticav projectiles are worthless now. This is very sad, because it was the main porpose for my thrower so far.
I think heavy cav and cav weaknesses are problems. The heads and legs should be weakspots for both melee and ranged at half armour, fixed horse headshot hurtbox, and a damage multiplier for headshots from ranged. I can't really change any of it directly, though, only suggest it when the next WSE2 update occurs or something. I believe that just nerfing stats wouldn't be that great of an idea without a complete overhaul that includes reducing their prices.

I don't think so. A wise thrower would aim for the Rider anyway.

The main problem ist not accuracy or hitboxes.

The main problem is that damage / skill point investment / cost / weight is not balanced.
Sorry, I was thinking of a scenario where the rider would be holding a shield up riding towards the thrower. Under that condition, I believed it would be easy to get a headshot on the horse.

Compared to melee weapons, a single throwing weapon deals more damage. The hurtbox/accuracy part was how skilled throwers get rewarded. Melee has more damage multipliers to work with, however. Throwing should receive hold bonus damages, though, if it's even possible. Getting 3 swings on an opponent is also easier than 3 throws, but throwers can retrieve missed ammo.

Compared to other ranged classes, throwing still seems like good damage, skill point investment, cost, and weight. 41p throwing weapons slightly outdamage 35p bows and 70p crossbows at 7PT/PD. For 3 skill points, you have access to 34-35p/b throwing weapons. The high end is poor, though, requiring 6-7 for spears and lances. Costs for throwing outside of stacked jarids/throwing lances are low, and even then those two are not that bad compared to other ranged. Throwers have the lowest weight out of any ranged class, but the lower tier should have less weight.  I think accuracy and ammo count are still the main issues where they are far too lacking, while the rest of the problems lie with heavy cav. Heavy cav is the easiest class right now.

Offline Huscarlton_Banks

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2014, 07:03:37 am »
+1
I can't say whether this is a good idea or not, but it is possible to give the "anti-cav"-ish throwables bonus damage vs. horses with some ti_on_agent_hit kluging.

It's also possible to have people that die "drop" the throwing weapons that they got hit by, but I haven't figured out an easy way to clear the projectiles out of the body without removing blood (unequipping, reequipping the armor on the agent).

Offline Mr.K.

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2014, 11:00:10 am »
0
If I recall correctly, I remember good cav received even less damage when using speed bonus to their advantage. I remember last year being able to get my rouncey to survive multiple throwing lances. Speed bonus was something that really only hurt bad cav that charged poorly.

Yes, my point is that this should have stayed the same. Thrower was one of the only things that would actually scare off any decent cav. Only thing that would scare me as much as a thrower, when riding on a large warhorse was an awlpiker. And when the cav turned away, it was pointless to throw at them, which was fine and balanced things out nicely imo. Unlike infantry, any aware (skilled) cavalry can easily avoid throwers making them far from OP.

Huscarlton_Banks brought up an idea of giving the throwers a bonus against cavalry. This could work, but it would be a bit strange if you can deal huge damage on the horse but like 30% damage on the rider, which you end up hitting surprisingly often even when aiming at the horse (okay, I just might be a bad aim). I still think the speed bonus buff would be the best way and at the same time nerfing the base damage of horse throwers to compensate, even though I myself never found horse throwers to be too strong.

Offline F i n

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2014, 12:45:40 pm »
+3
Compared to other ranged classes, throwing still seems like good damage, skill point investment, cost, and weight. 41p throwing weapons slightly outdamage 35p bows and 70p crossbows at 7PT/PD. For 3 skill points, you have access to 34-35p/b throwing weapons. The high end is poor, though, requiring 6-7 for spears and lances. Costs for throwing outside of stacked jarids/throwing lances are low, and even then those two are not that bad compared to other ranged. Throwers have the lowest weight out of any ranged class, but the lower tier should have less weight.  I think accuracy and ammo count are still the main issues where they are far too lacking, while the rest of the problems lie with heavy cav. Heavy cav is the easiest class right now.

Yeah but that's just what i meant by "we have to support the classes themselves". 

Comparing only the damage of Throwing to other the damage of ranged classes for example is just not a good way to balance things. Throwing is not a "ranged class" - at least not a pure one.


In my opinion crpg ranged classes are those who are far from the enemy having good accuracy and much time to deal damage - with the tradeoff that the damage is relatively "average". But the big advantage of being out of the direct dangerzone. 

As a thrower you are more vulnerable, you are less accurate, you don't have the same possibilities over high distances, you have almost no ammunition at all, but your damage is almost the same?

How's that a good balance?


Archery should have loads of ammo, good speed and a good effective distance but only medium damage. (check)

Crossbows should have low ammo, lowest speed, high effective distance and high damage. (check)

Throwing should have low ammo, low speed, low effective distance but the highest damage of all ranged classes - not just "a good one". But throwing is the only class where there is no tradeoff for the low ammo, low speed and low range.



Compare the damage of a longbow to heavy throwing axes for example. Just do it with your admintool thing. I bet it's almost the same.  But that's just what's the problem here. It just shouldn't be the same!

 
It's like if you're saying that a couched lance's damage is fine, because a rondel dagger stab does the same. (I know that's not the case)

Same goes for :

Compared to melee weapons, a single throwing weapon deals more damage. The hurtbox/accuracy part was how skilled throwers get rewarded. Melee has more damage multipliers to work with, however. Throwing should receive hold bonus damages, though, if it's even possible. Getting 3 swings on an opponent is also easier than 3 throws, but throwers can retrieve missed ammo.

How can you even try to compare those classes?

And how could "Getting 3 swings on an opponent is also easier than 3 throws, but throwers can retrieve missed ammo." ever be a valid argument for the melee-side?


We should stop trying to find explanations why the throwing damage is fine and start thinking about if it really IS.



It's not that cav is OP - cav just doesn't have a real enemy as it used to be. 

Because:

( - and even if this is maybe the 1000th time me and other players are saying this - )

THROWING DAMAGE IS THE PROBLEM

... accuracy is fine, ammo too.


Maybe it helps if i write it in big, red letters?
 
So how to balance cav and throwing?

Buff throwing = Nerf cav = Solution to our problem.  (is it even called a buff if you undo a unjust nerf..?)

Don't change throwing + Nerf Cav = 2 classes destroyed instead of 1




But if you want to keep the damage, increase accuracy and ammo - at least be honest and stop calling throwing weapons throwing weapons. Cus then they're just a cheap copy of archery and far from the throwing we all know and love and fight for. 


« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 01:02:21 pm by Finuad »
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Offline kinngrimm

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2014, 02:38:45 pm »
0
I see throwers due to their smaller distance to enemy and higher melee capability, the perfect hybrid capabilities when you want some ranged introduced into your melee builds, therefor not making always only their throwing capabilites better but their melee capabilites.

still this is a good general rule i think.
"We should support the specific characteristics of each weapon"

F.e.

Throwing lances look big, are called lances ^^ but are only 120 length, While i am ok with both suggestion of San the 2 slot 3 amo and the 1 slot 2 amo suggestions, the real individual thing about the throwing lance is their weapon length, which may allow it to be used with Hoplite builds. 10 to 15 more weapon length i would see as justified at least.

Javalins, still more amo, i dont mind them not having the biggest dmg potential, aslong the accuracy is good and i have enough amo(1 more then they got now), I want to throw them far of and not have to run after every one of those i threw so i got again something to throw  :rolleyes:

Jarrids, should be the real heavy hitters, they look heavy, they should make more dmg and but also should be a lot heavier then. Blunt/Knockdown for swings?

Throwing Axes, as Fin said, they are for the Kamikaze throwers, who are good at melee and want to live the risky life in full :), not that high accuracy, but better secondary melee capabilities then the other throwing weapoons.

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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2014, 05:47:38 pm »
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I can't say whether this is a good idea or not, but it is possible to give the "anti-cav"-ish throwables bonus damage vs. horses with some ti_on_agent_hit kluging.
Yeah, I suggested doing this a few months back. I think 15 or 20% additional damage would be beneficial, without risking any imbalances.

(click to show/hide)
We seem to have completely different ideas about balance, what throwing is, and should be. I'm tempted to argue nearly every single point that follows the "throwing isn't ranged" statement.
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Offline F i n

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2014, 06:43:14 pm »
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Yeah, I suggested doing this a few months back. I think 15 or 20% additional damage would be beneficial, without risking any imbalances.
We seem to have completely different ideas about balance, what throwing is, and should be. I'm tempted to argue nearly every single point that follows the "throwing isn't ranged" statement.

U a thrower yourself?

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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2014, 09:03:37 pm »
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U a thrower yourself?
Am I thrower? What kind of question is that? I don't consider myself to be anything. I retired my character Farfalle/Bigoli at 32, twice with thrower builds(pre double xp), as well as several builds on my STF. I think most poeple on NA would acknowledge the fact that I am rarely ever seen playing the same character, and particular the same build, for an extensive period of time(My character Tydeus, has been level 34 for about a year and a half now, and I'm still 30 mil xp out). I have several alts with varying builds, which should better qualify a person to make decisions, than someone who only plays one specific class. Such a person can indeed, in some situations, provide a perspective that is unattainable to a person like myself, but it would be the epitome of a biased opinion.
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Offline F i n

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2014, 09:19:32 pm »
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That's not what i meant :D.

I was just curious. And i've got plenty of other builds im playing myself.

I accept there's other opinions on this topic as well. And i'm sure they're just as justified as mine - all based on different game experience and therefor not mine to judge.


Didn't mean to offend you.


But yeah...what i meant was - throwing should be approached as a single class not just as a "ranged" class. Just like i wouldn't compare crossbows and bows. They all require different skillsets and playstyles and therefor should be processed seperately.

Of course it would be wrong to do that completely out of the whole context - but still - throwing is just different from other classes.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:26:42 pm by Finuad »
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2014, 10:01:39 pm »
+1
But yeah...what i meant was - throwing should be approached as a single class not just as a "ranged" class. Just like i wouldn't compare crossbows and bows. They all require different skillsets and playstyles and therefor should be processed seperately.

Of course it would be wrong to do that completely out of the whole context - but still - throwing is just different from other classes.
I picture balance of the ranged types as an equilateral triangle, where the highest point is archery, and the lowest two, throwing and crossbows. As you increase in height, you become more "ranged oriented", for lack of a better phrase. While as a crossbower you don't have the skill sink that throwing has, which allows you to afford to get better melee capabilities, you often have to be away from heated combat to be able to shoot, and therefore, utilize the other part of your build. Throwing on the other hand, still has a skill sink(not quite as large as archery), but due to proximity, is often forced into melee situations.

Although changes may seem to be broad, anti-ranged sentiments, I assure you, each class has been looked at separately, and weighed with its own merits(compared to those of other weapon types) in mind. The only time any class is ever balanced around the fact that it's either melee or ranged, is when the issue literally has to do with a core mechanic of either playstyle(things that arise from being able to damage someone with a weapon that isn't being held in your hand at the moment of impact, for clarification).

Edit: I don't mean to sound arrogant in either of these two posts, particularly the previous one, but I do think the community could benefit from a change in mindset. The balancers are aware that certain biases are always going to exist(even among us), therefore we try to account for such.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 10:07:54 pm by Tydeus »
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Offline Mendro

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2014, 11:01:19 pm »
+1
I think in the same way as Fin. Problem is from damage, not ammo or accuracy.
I mean low ammo is a part of the fun from this class cause I have to find my ammo on the field and take them back. It's funny.

Offline Aksei

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #101 on: April 20, 2014, 02:18:04 pm »
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i changed my main char to thrower ..... its in a good balance.
If you really want to do something, then give some of the axes 2 dmg more, but the rest is fine

Offline Okkam

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #102 on: April 20, 2014, 05:40:43 pm »
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I picture balance of the ranged types as an equilateral triangle, where the highest point is archery, and the lowest two, throwing and crossbows.

You can remove or reduce wpf penalty for PT point then. Just to motivate all those rattle-brained heroes to have some ranged ability.

Offline Lactose_the_intolerant

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #103 on: April 21, 2014, 01:24:21 am »
+3
Comes back to play a bit of c-rpg with my hoplite lance thrower...

What happened to hopliting?

What happened to throwing?

I don't fancy waving a 2h...

back again in a few months... ----->[]

Offline San

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Re: Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------
« Reply #104 on: April 21, 2014, 01:36:13 am »
-1
Hoplite is good :)