Axes: Polearm vs 2-Handed

[Leshma]

And it was nerfed million times so far, just like Bec and those changes were never reverted, unlike archery changes...

[karasu]

Even so it looks so badass.

Looks > everything else.

[Jarlek]

Morningstar isn't OP. It used to be OP, but I guess you don't remember that.

You mean back when it had curshtrough as in native? On all attacks? Always crushtrough because of speedbonus when used on horse? Yeah, I remember that. That doesn't mean that it's still not OP. Sure, it could be worse. But saying it's not worth more than 6,648 gold, when it deals the 2nd most damage in the game, you'd be smoking some weird shit.

Morningstar has an high damage output as pierce damage for a short weapon, but stays way behind if you compare it to the 2h axes which are faster, longer, higher damage and secondary mode possibility.

Unless the guy you are fighting is using cloth or is naked, the morningstar is the highest damaging weapon in the game, after the Great Maul. Whiners, like Leshma, who complain about the Poleaxe stab and the steel pick damage, really ought to remember that the Morningstar is 38 pierce damage, 6 more than the pick and 7 more than the poleaxe. With it's "slow" 92 speed, it still will do more damage on each hit AND DPS. While being "only" 82 length.

EDIT: To put it this way. The highest damaging one hander (ignoring blunt, pierce or cut category) is 37c with the Iron War Axe. The morningstar does more pierce damage then the highest damaging 1hander does with it's cutting. Puts things in perspective. Seriously. Apart from the Great Maul, there is no weapon that gets close to the morningstar when we talk about pure damage output. The closest one we have is the bec with it's 34 pierce. But Leshma is probably gonna whine about the becs OP'ness anyway, cause it's just obvious* how OP that thing is 

*sarcasm

Even so it looks so badass.

Looks > everything else.

+10 to cool. Definitely.

[Teeth]

When people talk about the 2h animations being superior, it's not about how hard it is for an opponent to read the swing direction.

Yes they are. The 2H animations are better argument exists since a lot longer than earlier active collisions with teammates and objects do.

-Swing is active for full damage much earlier in the animation (i.e. hiltslashing)

Polearms can hiltslash just as well as 2H.

[Xant]

The main advantage of polearms, in my opinion, are the occasional stuttering, jerky animations when feinting. 2h gets that too, but far less often. They're usually smooth, thus a million times easier to read.

[Teeth]

The main advantage of polearms, in my opinion, are the occasional stuttering, jerky animations when feinting. 2h gets that too, but far less often. They're usually smooth, thus a million times easier to read.

I'd say the main advantage is the damage, but this is true.

[Homey_D_Clown]

I rape people with this axe.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[Jarlek]

I'd say the main advantage is the damage, but this is true.

Really Teeth? Really? Do I have to do the "who deals the most damage" post again? Last time it was obviously 2handers, and things haven't changed much. Actually, the morningstar was buffed +1 damage since last time if I remember correctly.

[BlackMilk]

Jarlek wtf they took out crushthrough on sideswings in octobre2009 afaik, were you even playing the Game
back then?

And you compare it to the damage onehanders and say its op cause it Deals more damage than onehanders and you also forgot that there is a Penalty for Morningstar in 1h Mode.

Also you are the whiner here. Morningstar is shorter
than Most onehanders Not to speak of 2hs or polearms. It has a high Weight which is Great for stuns and
shitty for the Speed. Bonus against shields is a Big plus but the unbalanced Tag is a Even
greater Minus and completly annoying and also very
difficult to Play with. So we end up with a high damaging and
cheap but rather slow and really Short weapon that is also very
difficult to Play with. Seems Fine to me.

[Christo]

Jarlek wtf they took out crushthrough on sideswings in octobre2009 afaik, were you even playing the Game
back then?

 

I don't know what were you smoking BlackMilk, but Warband came out in 2010.

Late March, afaik.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount%26Blade:_Warband



If you've played cRPG back in 2009, you must be some kinda time wizard. 

[BlackMilk]

Do you know what a beta is? Iirc crushthrough on sideswings never
existed in warband 1.xxx, only in early stages of the Multiplayer beta.

[Gurnisson]

Do you know what a beta is? Iirc crushthrough on sideswings never
existed in warband 1.xxx, only in early stages of the Multiplayer beta.

Did from horseback and still do in native

[Christo]

Good.

The hell cares about a native beta? Stop confusing me.

[Jarlek]

Blackmilk. Just. No. Read my post again and maybe you'll get it this time.

Anyway, let's try to answer you, bit by bit:

Jarlek wtf they took out crushthrough on sideswings in octobre2009 afaik, were you even playing the Game
back then?

I've been playing M&B since the original came out and have been playing since then. Yeah, I remember when they changed it, but that was for cRPG only. As Gurnisson and Christo mentioned as I wrote this, you also got the time AND the changes wrong. Morningstar is still dastardly OP in native, as it always was, and unless you are talking about original M&B (which I thought you were talking about) you got it completely wrong with when it came out.

What does this have to do with anything anyway? I remembered when it was super OP, how does that apply to me thinking it is still too powerful for its price?

And you compare it to the damage onehanders and say its op cause it Deals more damage than onehanders and you also forgot that there is a Penalty for Morningstar in 1h Mode.

Sigh. Try to read better next time. I'm not comparing them vis-a-vis each other. I was making a not that the morningstar does more pierce damage than the highest damaging one-handed weapon. Just to show how powerfull it really is. I never said 2handers shouldn't do more damage than one-handers. I was trying to put things in perspective. Do you get it now?

And jeeeeez luise. Of course I know about the penalty when used in 1h mode. What does this have to do with anything? Did I mention it or make a point about it? Did I ever talk about the morningstar used as a one-handed weapon? You see, I can also drag in unrelated information, reminding you that you never mentioned it and then using it as an argument about how wrong you are.

Hey Blackmilk. Did you forget that two-handed weapons used on horseback gets a penalty? You are now completely wrong because you didn't mention that!
Look. Doing stuff like that is just stupid, wrong and not helpful at all. Can we please not use arguments like that? I know you are more mature than that.

Also you are the whiner here.

How am I the whiner here? I'm saying I love the Morningstar because it is OP, making me easily decimate everyone, I say that I would like a new 2h axe added to the game, and I say that I DON'T see a problem with the unbalanced tag. How can I be the whiner when I'm saying I like how everything is now? The only thing close to whining I've done in this thread are about idiots who didn't get my first post, i.e. the 2h axes aren't super-awesome-omfg! because they are cheap. You wouldn't compare the Wooden Stick with the Flamberge, now would you?. Yet still retards keep comparing the 2h axes with the poleaxes. It's just plain retarded.

Morningstar is shorter
than Most onehanders Not to speak of 2hs or polearms. It has a high Weight which is Great for stuns and
shitty for the Speed.

First of all. Morningstar isn't really shorter than most one handers. Most one handers are less than the 82 length of the morningstar AND the morningstar has a bigger bonus from animations in all but the right-to-left swing. Don't believe me? Count the number of 1hs with less than 82 reach. Sure. The most USED one handed weapons probably have an average of 90-ish. I'll be fair to point that out (see? We don't have to only point out the stuff that support our own views. More people should try that), but that is a point that is outside of what we are talking about. You say it is short, and I say yes. I agree. But it's NOT shorter than "most" 1handers. Agreed? That being said. It isn't short enough to be a problem. It is still viable with reach on all it's swings unlike, let's say, the iberian mace. Because of it's short length (70) and 1h animations, you kinda have to use the right-to-left swing most of the time. This isn't a problem with the Morningstar as all it's swings are roughly the same length, and they all have a decent length.
  I'd also like to point out that the bec. The polearm equivalent of the morningstar, is just as short. Yet, does anyone really have anything to complain about the reach of any of them? They aren't THAT short that it matters. Does anyone really have a problem with the length of the morningstar/bec?

Secondly. You say it has "a high Weight which is Great for stuns and shitty for the Speed". I'm sorry to inform you about this, but weapon weight does not affect it's speed. If you are talking about MOVEMENT speed, then I see what you say, but I have to disagree. 3.7 weight isn't a lot. Anyone who has used a shield knows that 3.7 is NOTHING. Most shields are 6+ weight, and even there you can get some decent speed. Only when the weight goes to 8+ you really start feeling the weight. Long story short. A weapon with 3.7 weight doesn't slow you down a lot. Nowhere NEAR the ammount armour or a shield would slow you down.

Bonus against shields is a Big plus but the unbalanced Tag is a Even
greater Minus and completly annoying and also very
difficult to Play with.

Thirdly. Bonus against shield is a plus. That is correct. Unbalanced tag is a minus. That is correct. But the Unbalanced tag is WAY too little a minus to balance out the Bonus against shield. Or anything else, for that matter. The only thing "Unbalanced" does is making you unable to stop the attack after you started it. Yeah, sucks in some situations like Leshma said (enemy died and you can't stop the swing, so you hit your teammate), but there really isn't that many places where it will be a problem or liability. It's a bad thing for sure, but very, very minor. You say it is "difficult to play with", then I have to say "No, it isn't. L2p." No offense Blacky, but it really isn't hard to use them.

So we end up with a high damaging and
cheap but rather slow and really Short weapon that is also very
difficult to Play with. Seems Fine to me

First of all, it's not a "cheap" weapon, it's just not an expensive one. It's in the middle (and I think it should be in the lower end of expensive territory).
It is also high damaging. But NO WAY is it a "slow" weapon. It's 92 speed, same as the greatswords and only 3 of the axes are faster. It isn't a katana, but it's nowhere near "slow". You also call it short, but as I mentioned earlier, it isn't short enough to be an issue.  It defiently isn't "really Short weapon" like you said. Sure, you get outreached by most 2handers and many polearms, but you still got more than enough range to keep some distance with. Lastly, you call it "very difficult to play with". That's BS. Yeah, it's not the EASIEST weapon in the game (Greatswords), but it isn't the hardest weapons either. Personally I would put it somewhere in the middle on the "how easy to use" rankings. You wouldn't want to use it as a bad player, but you haven't got the be a badass to use it properly either. Case in point: HRE loves this weapon.


PS: For the love of God. Please try to at least THINK about correct spelling and grammar next time. It hurts my brain to look at those mistakes!

[Jarlek]

I also found the old post where I show which weapon category has the highest damaging weapons. Making a new post to keep it seperate from my reply to Blacky.

It's a good read and really shows how stupid the "QQ polearms are so OP and does so much more damage than 2handers" whining is.

(click to show/hide)

The long maul is the most specialized of the mauls. You need much more PS (and STR) to crush with it. It's also slower. It's not that it is a bad maul, but unlike the great maul, you need a maul build to be able to use it. Any 21+ str build can take a great maul and use it properly, while with the long maul you can't. Still a nice maul, though, but having one, very specialized maul, is not as good as the more choices the 2h mauls gives together with the fact you don't have to have a maul build.

And yes, the 2hs have the most damaging weapons. The only exceptions are on the stabs, which polearms wins. But 2handers do the most swing damage in ALL damage type categories. Don't believe me? Ok, read the spoilers.

First of all, Pierce:

(click to show/hide)

Bec de Corbin:
thrust damage: 26 pierce
swing damage: 34 pierce

Morningstar:
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 38 pierce
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield

Morningstar has the most damage, bonus against shields, but Unbalanced. No stab, which as I said, is the main disadvantage with 2hs. Stabs are the least damage, although they have the best range bonus, +80, from stabs, the damage is not that good. Still good enough for what you want to do with stabs.

You can't really bitch about polearms and 1handers pierce weapons when you got the highest damaging pierce weapon of them all. Even spears, awlpikes, halberds and poleaxes got less damage than the morningstar.

Secondly, cut:

(click to show/hide)

You mentioned the Great Long Axe. It has 45 cut damage. In polearms there is also the Long Bardiche that has 45 cut damage. The only one that has more is the Great Long Bardiche, which has 46. For 2handers, there is also only one weapon with 46 cut damage. The flamberge. with 45 cut damage there is also 2 other 2handers, the Persian Battle Axe and the Warcleaver. So far, equal (if we forget about the stabs, which the 2hs actually win in the high cut weapons category).

Now for how many 40+ cut weapons are there in each category?
Poles have: German Poleaxe, Poleaxe, Great Long Bardiche, Great Long Axe, Long War Axe, Long Bardiche and Long Axe.
A total of 7 high damage cut weapons.

2hs have: Flamberge, Danish Greatsword, Nodachi, Sword of War, Highland Claymore, Miaodao, War Cleaver, Great Bardiche, Great Axe, Persian Battle Axe, Dadao, Bardiche, Persian War Axe, War Axe, Two Handed War Axe, Shortened Voulge and Battle Axe.
A total of 17 high damage cut weapons.

Not only do the 2hs have more high damaging weapons. They also have them all over the price range. To get a high damaging polearm, you need pay 9909. For a high damage 2h you can get it for only 894. That's less than 1/10. I am NOT saying that the Battle Axe is as good as the Long War Axe, just that when it comes to dealing out damage, 2handers are cheaper, has more variety, more "types", less sacrifices to make and more to choose from.

Finnaly, blunt:

(click to show/hide)

But who has the most high damage cut weapons is actually an unnecessary discussion, since the 2h's not only have loads of 40+ damage cut weapons. They even have a 43 BLUNT weapon! The Great Maul. THAT is the MOST damaging weapon in the game. The only exception is when the enemy has no armour at all, in which case it's a 1-shot (99% of the time) from all 40+ damage weapons. There's NO other weapon that get's close in total damage and armour penetration. The second closest to the Great Maul is the Morningstar, which is another 2hander!

So don't come here and tell me that 2handers don't do the most damage.'

PS: And 1handers? They don't even HAVE a high damage weapon. The highest damaging weapons are the 35 cut Broad One Handed Axe, the 31 blunt Warhammer and the 32 pierce steel pick. Not saying any of them are bad, but for dealing damage? Not even close to what 2h (and poles) can deal. Totally fine, btw, apart from the silly glances.