Axes: Polearm vs 2-Handed

[B3RS3RK]

You ever played with the 2h axes?

They are fucking awesome.

[Siiem]

Not really, all of them are unbalanced which is just annoying to play with.

[Digglez]

on NA its easily 90% poleaxes.  I rarely ever see a great axes.  2h axes are pretty shitty and the numbers regarding their use reflect this

[Leshma]

You ever played with the 2h axes?

They are fucking awesome.

No they are not. I've tried Great Axe last night for a short period of time (I've used it before occasionally) and I must say it's shitty weapon. Short, slow and unbalanced. And damage isn't that epic.

At some point I've picked some poleaxes from the ground to try them out. It's much easier to play with those than with 2H Axes and I have 175 wpf in 2H and 1 wpf in polearms...

[Gurnisson]

You ever played with the 2h axes?

They are fucking awesome.

This, and they're pretty cheap to boot too. 2H axes don't need a buff, but that top-tier axe sounds like a good addition.

[Shatter]

I also think a 10-15k 2h axe would be a good thing. The 2h axes that are available right now are not bad for their price. But when compared to the high-end 2hers, the current 2h axes are just not as good.

[Malaclypse]

If you can spot the pattern in the spoiler you can see why 2h axes are worse than polearm axes.

(click to show/hide)

Axe                           2h      398
Two Handed Axe         2h      754
Battle Axe                  2h      894
Two Handed War Axe   2h     2,098
War Axe                     2h     2,522
Persian War Axe          2h     4,035
Persian Battle Axe       2h     5,612
Great Axe                   2h     6,612
Long Axe                   Pole    6,934
Long War Axe            Pole    9,909
Great Long Axe          Pole    12,649
Poleaxe                     Pole   14,470
German Poleaxe         Pole    15,061
Elegant Poleaxe         Pole    15,634

As is pretty obvious now, polearm axes are better because of the simple fact that they are more expensive. The 2h axes are basically the cheap 2handers, while the polearm axes (and poleaxes which I included) are the top end polearms.

You have to compare the polearm axes with the Two Handed Sword and above and the 2h axes with the spears and staffs. You just simply can't compare the 2h axes with the polearm axes. It would be like comparing the greatswords with the quarterstaff. They're just out of their league. I almost were gonna say here that you have to be a polearmer if you want to be an axeman, but when I think about it, you can actually do very well and be totally viable with the 2h axes too. They just have their own unique niche, just like the staffs and spears.

And if you REALLY want a good shield braking weapon, you ought to just take the Morningstar. It's the second highest damaging weapon in the game.

Whether this came through developers making the axes bad and then reducing price, or if they reduced the price and then had to nerf the weapon is something I can't answer.

Quoted because this seemed to be ignored.

[Phew]

When people talk about the 2h animations being superior, it's not about how hard it is for an opponent to read the swing direction. They are talking about:

-Shorter backswing on overheads=less getting caught on walls/teammates
-Extended overhead animation=lets you drag the weapon along the ground to hit for full dmg long after your opponent thinks they've dodged it (Poles can do this too, but the 2h animation leans way forward while you do it so it's a lot easier)
-More compact left/right swings=less getting caught on walls/teammates/less glancing
-Swing is active for full damage much earlier in the animation (i.e. hiltslashing)
-Increased reach

I don't think unbalanced is the blight people claim it to be. Watch Seduction (or whatever he calls himself now, it has a bunch of numbers in it) with the War Cleaver; he feints like a madman, better than he does when he uses a longsword.

[Leshma]

I can feint with War cleaver just as easily as with swords. Of course you can't do that famous feint most duelers do simply because you have no thrust. But feints from side to side or swing-overhead feints are pretty much the same and just as easy to do. Feinting isn't an issue, problem is when you want to stop the swing which is almost over because enemy is dead and your teammates came in front of you. You can do that with swords but you can't with unbalanced 2H axes/cleavers.

Fast feinting works like a charm with war cleaver simply because people don't expect you to feint. Everyone knows that only way to use war cleaver is spamming left and right swings as fast as you can. Don't do that and people will be wtf and a moment later, dead.

But war cleaver isn't an axe, it's awfully long and deals epic damage. Great axe is shit compared to it. It's cheap, but still shit.

[Jarlek]

No they are not. I've tried Great Axe last night for a short period of time (I've used it before occasionally) and I must say it's shitty weapon. Short, slow and unbalanced. And damage isn't that epic.

At some point I've picked some poleaxes from the ground to try them out. It's much easier to play with those than with 2H Axes and I have 175 wpf in 2H and 1 wpf in polearms...

I've tried Voulge last night for a short period of time (I've used it before occasionally) and I must say it's shitty weapon. Short, slow and unbalanced. And damage isn't that epic.

At some point I've picked up some greatsword from the ground to try them out. It's much easier to play with than with polearm axes and I have 174 wpf in polearms and 1 wpf in 2h...

(click to show/hide)

This is a post to show the complete and utter bullshit, idiocy and bad spelling of Leshma's post. He comes with stupid comparisons, he ignores the obvious reason of equipment cost, which I've already noted before, and he tries to ignore how good the 2h axes actually can be just because he failed horribly with them. The end.

I actually wouldn't mind a upper mid tier 2h axe. Something along 9-12k, but they should always be unbalanced and instead gain bonuses in other fields. Fuck it. Maybe even make one of them have crusthrough! (although lightish weight, so it only happens against the lighter weapons/shields). That being said. Unbalanced really isn't that bad at all. I often use the morningstar and do extremely well with it, so does many others. The mauls are also unbalanced and they do pretty well too. I'm not saying that unbalanced doesn't decrease a weapons usefullness, but it's not a BIG deal either.

[Leshma]

At least I told the truth.

[Camaris]

I've tried Voulge last night for a short period of time (I've used it before occasionally) and I must say it's shitty weapon. Short, slow and unbalanced. And damage isn't that epic.

At some point I've picked up some greatsword from the ground to try them out. It's much easier to play with than with polearm axes and I have 174 wpf in polearms and 1 wpf in 2h...

(click to show/hide)

This is a post to show the complete and utter bullshit, idiocy and bad spelling of Leshma's post. He comes with stupid comparisons, he ignores the obvious reason of equipment cost, which I've already noted before, and he tries to ignore how good the 2h axes actually can be just because he failed horribly with them. The end.

I actually wouldn't mind a upper mid tier 2h axe. Something along 9-12k, but they should always be unbalanced and instead gain bonuses in other fields. Fuck it. Maybe even make one of them have crusthrough! (although lightish weight, so it only happens against the lighter weapons/shields). That being said. Unbalanced really isn't that bad at all. I often use the morningstar and do extremely well with it, so does many others. The mauls are also unbalanced and they do pretty well too. I'm not saying that unbalanced doesn't decrease a weapons usefullness, but it's not a BIG deal either.

But you totally showed in your post what is wrong with them: Why should anyone use them if they can use a morningstar.
They may not suck but they for sure arent great. Thats not the problem. The question is why morningstar (without being op) is better then every
single option you could chose as axe.

=> Yes you are right in one point: We need a high tier 2h-Axe. It should be around 1m long to not be like a poleaxe it should be unbalanced but
it should deal incredible damage (like the persian) while not being slow (like the great axe) and it should have the secondary pierce mode (like the other persian).

That would be an axe people would consider.

[Jarlek]

But you totally showed in your post what is wrong with them: Why should anyone use them if they can use a morningstar.
They may not suck but they for sure arent great. Thats not the problem. The question is why morningstar (without being op) is better then every
single option you could chose as axe.

=> Yes you are right in one point: We need a high tier 2h-Axe. It should be around 1m long to not be like a poleaxe it should be unbalanced but
it should deal incredible damage (like the persian) while not being slow (like the great axe) and it should have the secondary pierce mode (like the other persian).

That would be an axe people would consider.

Oh, the Morningstar is OP as fuck! I love it for it

And to why people should use the other axes instead? Well. Roleplay and/or upkeep. For many people those two things don't matter, but for some it does. I've always found it funny how people, when they want to save money, always lower their armour first while still having their expensive weapons. Personally I like to keep the armour and downgrade on weapons. Looting is a fun and entertaining pastime

As for a morningstar vs similarly priced axe. First of all, increase the morningstar price. It's the second most damaging weapon in the game and too cheap for it's usefulness. My thinking is that the axe should have more base damage, but cut, more reach and possibly (if it has a spike) the ability to turn over and use the spike instead of the blade. The morningstar, ought to have less base damage, but pierce/blunt, same speed and maybe knockdown. Knockdown only if the axe got the alternative mode. Maybe do as with the Iron Mace and add a polearm-animation stab for the morningstar with blunt damage? To give it the possibility of knockdown?

[Leshma]

Morningstar isn't OP. It used to be OP, but I guess you don't remember that.

[karasu]

Morningstar has an high damage output as pierce damage for a short weapon, but stays way behind if you compare it to the 2h axes which are faster, longer, higher damage and secondary mode possibility.