Cavalry is underpowered and unrealistic. Degrees of turn on lance too low.

[Dezilagel]

Cav battles here hold a greater depth? The only depth involved is making sure you are facing towards the enemy horse, or as close as possible, as you said yourself.  I don't know how much more obvious it can get; If the lance is allowed more degree's of movement, it simply opens up more options, and widens the skill gap between player's.  Nerfing lance movement would be like taking away a thrust, right, and left swing from infantry and only allowing them to use overheads. 

Well, in the same sense I could say that the only depth involved in native lancing is facing your lance towards the enemy and letting go at the right time. Which is considerably easier than making sure your entire horse is in a proper position. And no, opening up more options does not equate widening the skill gap, since native lancing is frankly, imo, OP and easymode as hell. It'd be like adding a totally OP melee weapon to the selection. More options? Yeah. Magical skill gap increase? No. Not to mention that you'd almost completely kill off 1h and 2h cav as playstyles. In c-rpg they are still at a disadvantage when fighting lancers, but not completely helpless at all.

As for enemies getting on my 6, yes, I can avoid such a situation through superior maneuvering.

Then do it? First you say that getting on someone's 6 is autowin (bullshit), but now all of a sudden you can remedy it? And if you need to outmaneuver as well as time the lance then doesn't that make for a greater skill gap? Since you're so bloody pro you should be doing great then!

But when your riding a rouncey, and you have an entire squad of agility pumping courser's feening on your ass from every direction, it become's somewhat impossible to counter them all without receiving a lance to the face.  If the lance view was buffed, a skilled player being chased from all directions would have a CHANCE to still win the battle, even if it's a slight chance, it opens up gameplay.  As it is right now, if you are in that situation, you are screwed unless you run into your infantry and hope they give up the chase.

Well then: Don't put yourself in such a situation. If you're completely out-numbered and out-horsed (?) then maybe trying other things such as hanging back a bit and luring the enemy cav to your archers or maybe dismounting and fight them on a hill might be better ideas than a brainless charge? And while it is indeed harder to combat multiple opponents in c-rpg, you have to remember that ganging is also harder. I've seen truly good cav take out multiple less-skilled opponents through use of positioning, terrain and never giving more then one of them the opportunity to strike at once. Be creative. If you are pursued by multiple cav then riding into a tight hallway or up a hill can nullify their local numerical advantage. This is a perfect example of how the nerfed lance angle increases the skill gap. Once you're not able to win just by 360 poking and are instead forced to use other, more interesting methods then that opens up a new depth to cav gameplay.

You really need to stop putting words into my mouth, once again.  I never said anything close to what you quoted me of saying.  I simply said that the game mechanics have lessoned the skill gap in cav vs cav battles.  Please explain sir, how is that in anyway "dismissing the skill of our cav community".  Talk about SPEWING BULLSHIT.

In Native, the good cav do good, and bad cav do bad, unlike in CRPG where they are practically the same.

Friendly reminder.

How is it not obvious to you that there is a great difference between a good and a bad cav player here when we consistently have the exact same people getting completely insane scores from horseback? (You're not among them? Baaaaaaw) (Also doing "good" scorewise as cav is not very hard, native or c-rpg)

Lastly, As it is right now, 2Handers beat charging horses effortlessly with rediculous superhuman ninja jump swings.  I guess you don't mind, do you?

Sucky cav is indeed not very tough opponents. But that's becauser they suck and as such shouldn't be. Good cav on the other hand use techniques such as slowing down and then charging, *turnaway* couches and stabs to trap aggressive infantry, side-to-side wiggles and teamwork to make it much harder to combat them. Some even have the balls/brains to dismount to fight particulary tricky opponents.

And here once again you complain about the realism of the game, which is never an argument for game balance. I'd be fine with archers shooting bolts of lightning from their arses instead of arrows if it's balanced.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

I can get out of someones 6 even several peoples 6 without much work at all, obviously depends what horses you are being chased by.

- courser is a brilliant escape horse if you got some nice flat plain, no horse will gain any speed on you, in groups they are very good at taking out slower arabians but one on one an arabian will quick turn and leave with relative ease.
- Arabian great for tracking slower horses, brilliant for dodging faster cavalry, not so great at a drag race scenario
- destriers are just goddamn brilliant all rounders
- Heavy Horses, well if you are being hunted by other cavalry or hunting other cavalry on a heavy horse you are doing it wrong, you want to be removing yourself from any cavalry engagements on a heavy horse, go help infantry.

Just some tips

[Torben]

Something that I find frustrating about lancers as an infantryman isn't really the angle, I was able to dodge lances before the nerf and can still do it now, what does get me is the damage the lances to despite a very slow pace, I've often been killed in 1 hit by a stationary horseman with a lance, the lance uses a one handed attack which at close range shouldn't do a great deal of damage particularly when I'm right next to the guy, I'd rather an increase in speed bonus for lances and a lowered general damage so to one shot infantry you actually have to be riding at pace which is what lances should really be used for, not im gonna walk up to this guy and poke him.

hm,  an awlpike to my face in a stationary position does about the same amount of damage,  dont see the problem here...  would like a faster lance tho.

[Overdriven]

I can get out of someones 6 even several peoples 6 without much work at all, obviously depends what horses you are being chased by.

Coursers also suck on hilly maps. Because you have to constantly change speed you rarely get to use the coursers speed, and that's where the Arabian is better because it's acceleration means it'll over run courser on short distances and will be better when constantly changing speeds.

But when your riding a rouncey, and you have an entire squad of agility pumping courser's feening on your ass from every direction, it become's somewhat impossible to counter them all without receiving a lance to the face.  If the lance view was buffed, a skilled player being chased from all directions would have a CHANCE to still win the battle, even if it's a slight chance, it opens up gameplay.  As it is right now, if you are in that situation, you are screwed unless you run into your infantry and hope they give up the chase.

Regardless, if you find yourself in a situation where it's you vs many more cav, you should probably do your best to get out of there. Unless you are a whacky hybrid with crap riding and a crap horse, you should be able to get away easily enough. The only time you'll struggle is with an HA on your arse. But regardless, lancing is about using your horse to put yourself in favourable positions and giving yourself the ability to get out of unfavourable situations. Don't try to take on something you obviously won't be able to handle.

Fact is, there is no way 1vs6 cav should give the 1 cav even a remote chance of winning. Such a situation would only be for the very best players. As I see it, cav atm is in an ok place and honestly I cba to see any more changes involving cav.

I'm sorry, but I stopped reading when you said "CRPG is alot more balanced than Native".  I can't even tell if you are being serious or not.

Ur...it is. And this is coming from a cav player.

In Native, the good cav do good, and bad cav do bad, unlike in CRPG where they are practically the same.

Haha o this made me laugh. Go and watch the good crpg cav for a few maps and then come back and say that.

Native lancing was far to easy. When I first started Warband multiplayer, ruins and field by the river were a walk over with lancing. I could go top of the server with very very minimal effort. It's been a while since I've done any lancing in crpg, but I know I would struggle and it would take a lot more practice and skill for me to get any good at it.

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

hm,  an awlpike to my face in a stationary position does about the same amount of damage,  dont see the problem here...  would like a faster lance tho.

Funnily enough I also dislike the awlpike for that exact reason. 

[Inkompetent]

Haha o this made me laugh. Go and watch the good crpg cav for a few maps and then come back and say that.

Definitely this. I've recently started playing a kniggit with lance and all, and I get my ass handed to me on a silver platter by enemy cav, throwers, crossbowmen, and almost any and all infantry, one- and two-handers. I can't perform half as good as the good cav can, even though I try follow their lead and do my best not to attack infantry that's aware of me. To at all manage to kill someone from horseback is quite a victory for me. Much more so than to kill someone when on foot.

Lancing is really hard, but at the same time I can look at the skilled cav and they rack up kill after kill, both inf and cav, with their lances, so obviously lancing works. It's far from as easy as native though, where the wide lance arc makes it much easier to stay out of the reach of the infantry.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

Saying that native has less depth for cav lancer duels is bullshit...

and 1h cav is a good class, i did a gen with it and i did well, even had my share of lancers!

[Revo142]

Well, in the same sense I could say that the only depth involved in native lancing is facing your lance towards the enemy and letting go at the right time. Which is considerably easier than making sure your entire horse is in a proper position. And no, opening up more options does not equate widening the skill gap, since native lancing is frankly, imo, OP and easymode as hell. It'd be like adding a totally OP melee weapon to the selection. More options? Yeah. Magical skill gap increase? No. Not to mention that you'd almost completely kill off 1h and 2h cav as playstyles. In c-rpg they are still at a disadvantage when fighting lancers, but not completely helpless at all.

The difference in skill between making sure your lance is pointed at the enemy and making sure your entire horse is pointed at the enemy is not as much of a skill difference is it is a complete change to how cav plays. 

Maneuvering your horse into position honestly does not require more skill than making good use of the variety of lance angles avaliable to you in native.

Then do it? First you say that getting on someone's 6 is autowin (bullshit), but now all of a sudden you can remedy it? And if you need to outmaneuver as well as time the lance then doesn't that make for a greater skill gap? Since you're so bloody pro you should be doing great then!

I have methods of dealing with courser lancer's chasing me, however every one of those methods are significantly less effective now.  What does this do?

This puts more emphasis on getting on the enemies 6, a simple and hardly skilful tactic, and less emphasis on out manuevering and other techniques utilized by cavalry in Native.

In Native, the good cav do good, and bad cav do bad, unlike in CRPG where they are practically the same.

First off, this is in no way "dismissing the skill of our cav community" as it is pointing out an inferior gameplay mechanic, so you can cut that shit out.

Secondly, I stand by my point.  I did say "practically" diddn't I? Not completely, but much less so than in native.

Take a Great cav player against a Good cav player in crpg, then do the same in Native on a flat map.  The score differerence in Native would most likely be greater.

or maybe dismounting and fight them on a hill might be better ideas

That's like me telling an archer who is complaining about his bow being underpowered to switch to a 2 Hander.

How is it not obvious to you that there is a great difference between a good and a bad cav player here when we consistently have the exact same people getting completely insane scores from horseback?

Once again, the score difference would most likely be greater in Native.  And actually, I am always on the top of the scorechain, especially since I learned the following things:

1.  Getting on an enemies 6 O clock in a cav on cav battle is now more important than positioning, maneuvering, and lance release timing. 

2.  Never attack ANYONE head on besides a 1Hander, or a single lone archer.  Oh wait, I can't attack a single lone archer head on either because my Rouncey will get two shotted.

3.  Couching is now more powerful than before, and should be used more often compared to timed release of lance thrusts.

Fact is, there is no way 1vs6 cav should give the 1 cav even a remote chance of winning. Such a situation would only be for the very best players. As I see it, cav atm is in an ok place and honestly I cba to see any more changes involving cav.

In Native and PWMod (During war's), I normally win 1vs6 cav battles because I am able to use lance angles to my advantage. 

All i'm asking for is a slight chance of doing so in crpg, not as big of a chance as in native, just a slight one.



It seems like an increase in the lance angle, not even to native standards, is too much to ask for?

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

In Native and PWMod (During war's), I normally win 1vs6 cav battles because I am able to use lance angles to my advantage. 

Erm....Where did we park the bus with people who care?



You are still using your "native-arguments", although I think everyone here told you that native is totally different and that actually noone really cares about how native is. This is crpg. Adapt to it or leave it and continue your "realistic" native where you seem to be one of the best players

Cheers

[a_bear_irl]

I'm good at native but new to CRPG make CRPG like native so I can do well

[Smoothrich]

I can 1 vs 6 scrub cav in this game too

if you're good you'd adapt

if you're bad or crutch on broken ass easy mechanics from native, instead of winning you'll be too busy complaining

[Revo142]

Erm....Where did we park the bus with people who care?



You are still using your "native-arguments", although I think everyone here told you that native is totally different and that actually noone really cares about how native is. This is crpg. Adapt to it or leave it and continue your "realistic" native where you seem to be one of the best players

Cheers

I find it interesting how you completely ignored 95% of the post, and instead of writing a well thought out counter-argument to my idea's about cavalry in crpg, you chose to quote one sentence of my response to someone else's statement about how a single cav cannot hope to beat 6 at once.  Amazing how blind and biased people here can be.

I can 1 vs 6 scrub cav in this game too

if you're good you'd adapt

if you're bad or crutch on broken ass easy mechanics from native, instead of winning you'll be too busy complaining

I love how you assume it was "scrub cav".  I'll tell you something, beleive it or not, it's not only "scrub cav" that I beat in a 1vs multiple engagement.  Its competent cav.  Cav who can hold their own, and know their shit.  Why is this?

Because the lance angles in native allow for even the slightest differerences in timing and excecution to make or break a fight.  Only the most skilled player's are capable of using these mechanics to their advantage.

Once again, another biased response.

If you are just going to come and tell me "adapt!111" without even bothering to read the well-thought out arguments on why some aspects of cavalry in crpg is inferior and damaging to gameplay, please don't bother responding.

I would like to see Overdriven respond to my quote of his quote, the long post above this one, and provide some valid counter-arguments.


Seem's like I have a few people agreeing with me here:

Saying that native has less depth for cav lancer duels is bullshit...

Before this turn radius nerf I did a gen or two as cavalry. Cav v Cav was fun. Even had an alt. Of course once the enemy cav was killed came the distasteful job of spearing inf in the back.

Lance nerf... meh for cav v cav.

i feel you on that, before the lance angle nerf it was so much better, what is funny about that i think imo it reduced the number of cav, because better cav would not give a chance to the noob cav in cav duels and the noob cav would probably be fed up with it and change class... and the outcome of the current head on lancing is much more random

So once again, is a slight increase in the lance angle too much to ask for?

Another friendly reminder, if you are just going to blindly come in and tell me "adapt!111" without even bothering to read the well-thought out arguments on why some aspects of cavalry in crpg is inferior and damaging to gameplay, please don't bother responding.

You guys really think of everything to say don't you?

or maybe dismounting and fight them on a hill might be better ideas

Hmm, great idea! While your at it, tell all archer's to drop their bows and buy melee weapons!  Tell all Shielder's to pick up a Greatsword!

[Dezilagel]

I find it interesting how you completely ignored 95% of the post, and instead of writing a well thought out counter-argument to my idea's about cavalry in crpg, you chose to quote one sentence of my response to someone else's statement about how a single cav cannot hope to beat 6 at once.  Amazing how blind and biased people here can be.

If you can't see the irony here looking at your previous post...

Hmm, great idea! While your at it, tell all archer's to drop their bows and buy melee weapons!  Tell all Shielder's to pick up a Greatsword!

I'm sorry, but are you stupid or just drunk?

Being "cav" is being a complete solider on a horse, you're not glued to it are you? You don't stop fighting once dismounted no?

NOT dismounting for example if you're going to assault a roof full of archers is completely fucking retarded; in general just focusing on one aspect of your class is beyond idiotic.

*Im cav so I should be on my horse HURR-DURR*

No, being cav means you have the option to ride.

I'm pole inf and yet I carry a shield and a dagger to deal with pesky ranged. If the situation calls for it I'll pick up a proper onehander or even a crossbow from the ground to deal with the situation at hand.

You keep talking about how having more options (in this case a wider lance angle) and yet you don't use the options at hand available to your class. Do you really want to just do one thing and expect to win out in every situation?

Ranty post I know, but this one got to me.

[To Kill A Dead Horse]

adapt!

[Overdriven]

In Native and PWMod (During war's), I normally win 1vs6 cav battles because I am able to use lance angles to my advantage. 

All i'm asking for is a slight chance of doing so in crpg, not as big of a chance as in native, just a slight one.



It seems like an increase in the lance angle, not even to native standards, is too much to ask for?

There is a slight chance. You can do it...but it's so rare and unusual that it is in fact a 'slight' chance.

Go back to when the lance angle was originally changed from native and I would agree with you. The lance angle nerf did change cav vs cav quite a lot to a more boring gameplay. Ironically I think the lance angle nerf also actually increased lancers effectiveness vs inf, because they learnt to be a lot more careful in their placements and timing back stabs rather than relying on the side stab to outrange. But now I am inclined to say this mod is relatively well balanced. The change is unnecessary and would require the community, both cav and inf, to re-adapt yet again for no real reason.

NOT dismounting for example if you're going to assault a roof full of archers is completely fucking retarded

That's what the horses ladder climbing ability is for