Cavalry is underpowered and unrealistic. Degrees of turn on lance too low.

[Torben]

Even I with 400 hours of Greatsword experience see a cav vs stab duel as a scary thing. Missing, or just hitting the horse mostly means death. I see that  a lot of cav mess up their timing when you pretend that you are unaware and that is what makes me kill quite some cav.

related to the topic,  before the angle nerf i didnt care about any 2handers when approaching them head on,  now its a scary thing for me aswell : )

[Ujin]

Lance cav (heavy lance at least) sv 2h (greatswords) = 50/50 (pretty much like a cav duel), maybe 60/40 in favor of the lancer if he knows his angles .

Nothing's gonna change anyway (and most of us have dealt with this change by now) , but i wanna say i'm with Arslan. The lances' angle change is probably one of  the biggest nerfs in the history of cRPG and what makes it worse is that it didn't affect cav vs inf much  but instead took the most fun cav aspect out of the game - cav vs cav fights.
Before the nerf a better lancer could take on 3+ enemy cav and cav fights were actually much more about skill and less random than what they are now. Nowadays it's a smarter idea to ignore enemy cav , just take a courser and buttrape enemy infantry , Leed style (no offence to Leed, he's a good cav).

[Torben]

(click to show/hide)

Lance cav (heavy lance at least) sv 2h (greatswords) = 50/50 (pretty much like a cav duel), maybe 60/40 in favor of the lancer if he knows his angles .

Nothing's gonna change anyway (and most of us have dealt with this change by now) , but i wanna say i'm with Arslan. The lances' angle change is probably one of  the biggest nerfs in the history of cRPG and what makes it worse is that it didn't affect cav vs inf much  but instead took the most fun cav aspect out of the game - cav vs cav fights.
Before the nerf a better lancer could take on 3+ enemy cav and cav fights were actually much more about skill and less random than what they are now. Nowadays it's a smarter idea to ignore enemy cav , just take a courser and buttrape enemy infantry , Leed style (no offence to Leed, he's a good cav).

i give you that,  but you gotta admit that we could control inf way better before aswell,  and the nerf helped balance us vs inf a lot.

[Cup1d]

I always think its strange that a MW German stab doesn't kill a Courser with 100 hitpoints and 18 body armor, but a MW heavy lance does kill me, with 63 hitpoints and 60 body armor, 48 head armor.

I heard that slow weapons (heavy lance speed is 73) benefit more from speed bonus. In native singleplayer it was possible to receive 500% speed bonus with lances.

[Gurnisson]

I heard that slow weapons (heavy lance speed is 73) benefit more from speed bonus. In native singleplayer it was possible to receive 500% speed bonus with lances.

Yeah. Was like that in native, and I doubt it's changed

[Vexus]

Cav are not underpowered.

I don't mind buffing cav if thrusting in your horse head dealt damage to YOUR horse (Or at least glance) not passing through as if there's nothing.

Every "class" mode has silly stuff.

[Revo142]

Who didn't read what?

You spoke of realism - I thought that was bullshit.

I never spoke about to what degree to buff cav, you just assumed that I assumed that you wanted cav to be buffed to native standards which was NOT AT ALL what I was trying to say. My point was that playing cav is harder here, but far from UP, and that's it's a different game that you'll just have to learn. Besides - messing with the lance angle would require work with the clientside WSE. (Right now, it uses the couch angle) I'm not sure how much, but I'm guessing quite a bit judging from dev behaviour in the past.

And about these "one-dimensional" cav battles:

I've played some cav in native and a little here as well. And personally I find the cav battles here to hold greater depth since maneuvering your entire horse into proper positioning requires a hell of a lot more effort, planning and, well *skill* than simply putting the lance behind you and letting go at the right time. (Over-simplification I know, but seriously; In native I always use the same turn-to-the-side big sweeping lance attack that kills just about anyone) You talk about someone "getting on your 6 o' clock" like it's something that just happens. It is not, that player has obviously outmaneuvered you. (Also there are some very effective techniques that can be used to get out of that situation, frequently employed by the top cav players)

And how is it more "random" in c-rpg than in native then? Sure here there might be situations were you are already fucked and can't remedy it in the last second with a turn around and good lance timing (but honestly, this "timing" game is what really made me stop playing cav, since its on the same level as archery when it comes to how dull, simple, and bland it is imo.), but that only speaks to me as a sign of increased depth of cav combat. It now requires you to think a little ahead.

And I find it funny that you just dismiss the skill of the entire cav-community here. As I told you, the same cav players consistently top the scores - you think that's for nothing?

If you'd come here (well, and show that you at least know what you're doing) and then complain that you feel restricted in your lance usage - fine that sounds like a reasonable complaint.

But coming here and going "I get beaten here, cav must take no skill since I'm bestest cav evah!!11" and then continuing by dismissing our entire cav community and along the way spewing BULLSHIT such as that cav should beat 1h and 2h "effortlessly" is just stupid imo.

Cav battles here hold a greater depth? The only depth involved is making sure you are facing towards the enemy horse, or as close as possible, as you said yourself.  I don't know how much more obvious it can get; If the lance is allowed more degree's of movement, it simply opens up more options, and widens the skill gap between player's.  Nerfing lance movement would be like taking away a thrust, right, and left swing from infantry and only allowing them to use overheads. 


As for enemies getting on my 6, yes, I can avoid such a situation through superior maneuvering. 

But when your riding a rouncey, and you have an entire squad of agility pumping courser's feening on your ass from every direction, it become's somewhat impossible to counter them all without receiving a lance to the face.  If the lance view was buffed, a skilled player being chased from all directions would have a CHANCE to still win the battle, even if it's a slight chance, it opens up gameplay.  As it is right now, if you are in that situation, you are screwed unless you run into your infantry and hope they give up the chase.


You really need to stop putting words into my mouth, once again.  I never said anything close to what you quoted me of saying.  I simply said that the game mechanics have lessoned the skill gap in cav vs cav battles.  Please explain sir, how is that in anyway "dismissing the skill of our cav community".  Talk about SPEWING BULLSHIT.

Lastly, As it is right now, 2Handers beat charging horses effortlessly with rediculous superhuman ninja jump swings.  I guess you don't mind, do you?

[Tears of Destiny]

Since Lancers tear up shielders so well, I don't mind that there is a polar opposite to two handers...

Advantages and disadvantages.

[BADPLAYERold]

I didn't bother to read this thread, but i'm just gonna post that Cavalry (Especially lance cav) is one of the easiest and least skillful things in the game and if anything it needs a nerf.
And I say this as a cavalry player of 10+ gens.

You just sound like really bad cavalry.

[Patoson]

I have just started playing as a lancer myself a few days ago, and I don't see any issues with the class.

It is already an advantage that, in this game, you can use your lance to kill many people without dropping it, whereas, in real life, the first person you hit with your lance would keep the lance in his body (at least in the movies I've seen )

[Tydeus]

In Native, if someone got on your 6 O clock and you were the superior player, you could out maneuver them and turn the tables, in CRPG when you have a guy chasing you and you try to out maneuver him in anyway, you'd get a lance to the face due to the limitations of the game mechanics.  You can't do shit besides run to you're teamates and hope that he gives up on the chase.  Skill hardly means anything in cav vs cav battles anymore.

This is the only part of the angle change that I miss, but even stating this, I have multiple times won against 4 or more cav by myself. It's much harder to do now and you always have to utilize terrain to do so. I think because of this, the skill curve was actually raised even higher.

[Zisa]

meh haven't tried the 'new' cav but the old cav I did not think was particularily deadly, just lots of infantry who hadn't figured how to deal with it, or remap look behind key.

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Something that I find frustrating about lancers as an infantryman isn't really the angle, I was able to dodge lances before the nerf and can still do it now, what does get me is the damage the lances to despite a very slow pace, I've often been killed in 1 hit by a stationary horseman with a lance, the lance uses a one handed attack which at close range shouldn't do a great deal of damage particularly when I'm right next to the guy, I'd rather an increase in speed bonus for lances and a lowered general damage so to one shot infantry you actually have to be riding at pace which is what lances should really be used for, not im gonna walk up to this guy and poke him.

[Gurnisson]

Something that I find frustrating about lancers as an infantryman isn't really the angle, I was able to dodge lances before the nerf and can still do it now, what does get me is the damage the lances to despite a very slow pace, I've often been killed in 1 hit by a stationary horseman with a lance, the lance uses a one handed attack which at close range shouldn't do a great deal of damage particularly when I'm right next to the guy, I'd rather an increase in speed bonus for lances and a lowered general damage so to one shot infantry you actually have to be riding at pace which is what lances should really be used for, not im gonna walk up to this guy and poke him.

Agreed. Mentioned it to Paul a few weeks back and he seemed to agree, and considered possible changes to it. Dunno if anything will happen though.

[Teeth]

Something that I find frustrating about lancers as an infantryman isn't really the angle, I was able to dodge lances before the nerf and can still do it now, what does get me is the damage the lances to despite a very slow pace, I've often been killed in 1 hit by a stationary horseman with a lance, the lance uses a one handed attack which at close range shouldn't do a great deal of damage particularly when I'm right next to the guy, I'd rather an increase in speed bonus for lances and a lowered general damage so to one shot infantry you actually have to be riding at pace which is what lances should really be used for, not im gonna walk up to this guy and poke him.

Yeah this looks ridiculous. The thing moves dirt slow but when it hits you you lose a shitton of hitpoints.