Can we please fix throwing?

[Xant]

You are indeed correct, Sha_Wujing. cRPG only has two classes... throwing, and yes, you guessed it, onehitkill barmace builds.

[TheIronDuke]

I think throwing would be balanced if a script would implement that would cause throwing weapons to bend, break, or be disabled with, say a 50% chance (obviously could be played with to find an optimal %chance) after impact.  This would cut down on the amount of reuseable ammo that throwers would get.  The balance on throwers is supposed to be their limited ammo amount, but with the amount of throwing that goes on and the fact that the majority of ammo can be re-picked up and thrown again, the low-ammo balance for the most part is defeated.

With a higher portion of ammo becoming unuseable after being thrown I think would go a long way to bring throwing more in line to where it should be.

[Nemeth]

Do what was done wiith other ranged weapons. Decrease damage, increase time between shots, reduce ammo, make it super expansive. Then people will think twice before equiping their heavy axes on their every single melee character.

[Spawny]

Currenly it's like... manage to dodge 3-4 projectiles, if you're lucky hit them once.. then after they get hit, they can still throw shit at you, so you're probably dead. OR. Dodge 3-4 projectiles, watch them press X, block one attack, backpedal and throw some more shit.

You're not fighting a pure thrower. Pure throwers have 3 agility. I bet you have more than 1 athletics, so I can't backpedal faster than you can run forward.
Also, if you just threw a weapon, there's a delay with the x button. It takes about a second or so before it will change to melee, which is more than enough for any 2h to kill me if I missed my last chance axe.

Also, there's indeed a lot of throwing weapons around you can pick up when running out of ammo. Just keep in mind you pick them up in stacks. So with 1 balanced heavy throwing axe left and 3 free slots I can pick up 1 dagger, 1 heavy throwing axe and a javelin and I'm full again. They only way to get full stacks again is to go scavenge. And if I have time to do that, my team is most likely winning anyway.
On top of that, when carrying different types of throwing weapons you have to swap to the next step manually. If you don't watch your ammo, you will find yourself punching the air right before your skull gets cleaved.

On the shields part:
Get a friggin old board shield. It took me 3! axes to break an old board shield held by someone with 1 shield skill when I had 8 PT. Now I can break them with 2 axes, but that's still half a stack of my weapons. Combine that with misses when you run around in a random pattern and it's not that hard to get to me. It's not like I can run away.
It is fun to run, watch the guy comming up to me run in a straigth line and then turn and headshot with an axe.

Imo, the best solution would be an overall reduction in damage. This would reduce hybrids to harassment builds and it wouldn't change that much for dedicated throwers.

[Xant]

Nah. Pebble_Pusher is a pure thrower and he was able to do what I described to both me and Bjord.

[Spawny]

Just keep pushing after they blocked. Keep facehugging and swinging and they can't do it.
The only times I kill people in melee mode is when they have very bad footwork or when they wait for my next hit (shielders mostly).

And afaik pebble_pusher is dastikka's newest incarnation. He can pull off shit like that more than 90% of the other throwers.

[Casimir]

Yes pebble_pusher is indeed a pure thrower and has been since pre-patch and native. Hes on of the best out there and the reason hes beating you is because thats what throwers are meant to do.

[bruce]

I just want throwers to trip and stick that goddamn spear into their heads when they backpedal away.

And yes ,it's the hybrids with 18 agi which are incredibly annoying when they're doing this since they're actually quite damn fast, and they still deal shitloads of damage, because 6 PT = 60% bonus on weapons with 34-40 pierce, and if you happen to be moving towards them get a hefty damage bonus because the projectiles are slow.

[Spawny]

Was fooling around with my balanced heavy throwing axes yesterday and while I hit at least 5 different people a round most of the time, I killed 2 maybe 3.

The only guaranteed 1 hit kills are archers and anyone in archer armour/no armour.

The guys in the vaegir elite armour (and similar ones) can take 3-4 hits depending on their IF.

That's with 10 PT.

Jarids are different. 1-2 hits kill just about everything and there's just a select few people able to survive the throwing lances.

[Xant]

Just keep pushing after they blocked. Keep facehugging and swinging and they can't do it.
The only times I kill people in melee mode is when they have very bad footwork or when they wait for my next hit (shielders mostly).

And afaik pebble_pusher is dastikka's newest incarnation. He can pull off shit like that more than 90% of the other throwers.

Yes, of course they can't do it if you can keep facehugging. But if it's not 1v1 without any distractions, you can't. You can't stay in their face forever, not even for that long actually, in a real battle situation (again, unless 1v1 but that's rare.)

[La Makina]

I play a thrower myself as a side char and I think it's a little overpowered. Reducing ammo would go a long way, I think. E.g. 2 per slot for axes instead of 4 would make a huge difference in my opinion.

200% agree. This would be a good compromise.
Why a 1H axe uses one slot whereas the same slot could contain 4 throwing axes?
Same for lances: one lance, one slot.

[Kafein]

I think damage is fine.

The changes needed regarding throwing IMO are :

- decrease shot speeds (especially for spear like throwing weps)
- make the shot speed heavily depend on the thrower movement speed when he launches his weapon. This effect should not affect 0 requirement throwing weapons. Basicly, throwing a steel and wood weapon should not even be possible if running backwards. Barely going over 15m if standing still, and have a ~50m range with maximum forward running speed (and 45° distance correction).
- increase reload time
- decrease PT bonus to accuracy
- increase accuracy (to compensate)
- decrease wpf effect on speed and increase it on accuracy
- decrease maintenance costs

And a very important last thing :

Make "turning" throwing weapons hit with the correct part. For example any throwing axe should not automaticly hit with the cutting part, but instead 1/2 of the times do it's normal damage, and the other half do a very little blunt damage, without the bonus vs shield, and in that case drop on the floor (not stuck in the opponent's corpse). I don't know if that is possible (but should be with the extensions). Even better would be that the result wasn't based on a random factor, but instead on the real movement of the axe in the air. So REALLY skilled throwers could reliably hit with the cutting part.

I'm conscious all of this means a hell of a time fighting with scripts, but would undoubtly make the game better.



All of this to balance throwing out and make it even skill-linked. The lost in shot speed compensates with the lower cost (because obviously throwing weapons are, speaking about realism, more like they are described here than how they are in the game).

What do you think ?

[Grey]

No ones mentioned another problem: Throwing axes when used in melee do not have a mesh that matches their range, u can be hit thru a shield or block at max range.

Simply removing throwing weapons from crpg would not noticeably hurt the game tbh. But since that will make much QQ, we are stuck with them. I can block a massive poleaxe with item "wooden stick" but not with a bow.hmmm. Fair? NO. I can 1hit ppl with a throwing axe, then turn and press x, use it as unblockable melee weapon. fair? NO.

Throwing weapons that are usable in melee should come in stacks of 1. No argument is needed, its the only logical solution without nerfing their "reload" speed MASSIVELY, or their super insane accuracy. By this I mean: Javelins, Jarids, shuriken, and lances need a MASSIVE accuracy buff, and range reduction. Throwing axes need their range AND accuracy MASSIVELY nerfed. As it is, you have to be a tard to use anything BUT throwing, since they are cheap, powerful, effective, and cant be blocked.

[Templar_Ratigan]

I can assume you did extensive tests with video proof to confirm that throwing axes used in melee go through blocks? Also I imagine that the current problems regarding melee, with most people reporting weapons going through blocks, is something you are aware of?

Sorry for the snarky rhetorical questions, but since ive never ever seen this, and the fact that ive blocked a thrower who used an axe in melee many times I cant exactly go on your word.
That aside ive observed that the main complaint about throwing weapons, apart from the usual cry baby 'wah wah its overpowered because I say so' types and of course the sheer amount of it, is about throwing axes specifically. I can honestly say that they are probably the single most effective thrown type of weapon in the game.

Deadly accurate, nasty damage and even pretty good in melee makes for a strong and fearsome combo. I wouldnt disagree atall with a reduction in their ammo supply to 2 or even 1 per slot. The other weapons you mentioned also wouldnt hurt too much from a reduction in ammo, although I might suggest that you could simply remove the melee mode, I mean it would take out even more skill from throwing but hey they wouldnt be hitting you with their magic unblockable attacks anymore and no longer will anyone fear a thrower blocking their attacks in turn then switching mode and one hitting you.

By this I mean: Javelins, Jarids, shuriken, and lances need a MASSIVE accuracy buff

Frankly id happily see lances gone, also shurikens are the last thrown weapon type that needs an accuracy buff.

Throwing weapons that are usable in melee should come in stacks of 1.

You mean like stones, darts and war darts? Indeed a wise idea.  I suppose what you really meant was the throwing weapons that could be used to block, which is all the heavier ones again.


Oh by the way this next paragraph isnt aimed at you specifically Grey.

It's important to remember that if someone can block you in melee with a thrown weapon enough times to change modes and one shot you that usually means firstly: they probably are a lot better at melee than you would like to give them credit for and secondly: if they do one shot you, you either have terrible armour or they have high strength and pt, meaning little to no agility, meaning if they were able to actually get away from you to throw the shot, you probably made a mistake in your movement or they made a decent move in theirs.
Im not saying there arent changes to be made, in fact there have been some great suggestions but once again I just want people to use their intelligence more to gauage a situation rather than their emotions.

[Kophka]

Before the major patch, throwing was a lot less common. So what changed? Let's review :

Accuracy : increased with high proficiency. With low proficiency, it's still as inaccurate as it always was. This is while standing still, not moving.
Reload Speed : Stayed the same
Shot Speed and range : Nerfed, and badly
Damage : Stayed the same
Requirements : Stayed the same
Price : Some went up, some went down.

As you can see, throwing is actually worse, and requires more skill to use than it did before the major patch. So why the huge increase in throwers?
Was it a general population increase across the board? Are throwers just more noticeable because they are annoying? Did the changes to proficiency
make people say, "Why not, it'll cost too much to improve my main skill anyways."? Or in a game where every character is a super hero, not a medieval soldier, does it make sense to have a ranged option?