cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Banok on January 10, 2011, 11:59:34 pm
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the exact same way archery was fixed ages ago when archers used to go went pure str and do way to much damage. make powerthrow inc damage but not accuracy aswell. make throwing wpf actually decently effect accuracy, and required for accuracy. this way to be an accurate thrower you need agility aswell as str, unlike atm where you just go pure str for the most accuracy and damage. this indirectly reduces the damage of throwing because pure str throwers will become very inaccurate.
EDIT:
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throwing wpf is currently not worth investing it at all. even more useless than xbow wpf before .200, since you can get way more accuracy from pt.
playing a thrower is not fun because of the randomness and innaccuracy of the projectiles. remove accuacy from power throw, make throwing wpf increase accuacy ALOT. and throwing instantly becomes more fun and viable.
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Pure throwers have no shield or very weak shields, so they can be picked off by archers easily. They also have little to no agility and they have to be closer to the fight to throw effectively. Throwers were already nerfed with the patch as their throw speeds and range have decreased significantly.
edit: They're a high risk, high reward class. Archers can sit further back and usually have high agility so their ability to fight in melees is a lot better than a thrower.
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I find throwers annoying but they aren't overpowered in my opinion.
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the exact same way archery was fixed ages ago when archers used to go went pure str and do way to much damage. make powerthrow inc damage but not accuracy aswell. make throwing wpf actually decently effect accuracy, and required for accuracy. this way to be an accurate thrower you need agility aswell as str, unlike atm where you just go pure str for the most accuracy and damage. this indirectly reduces the damage of throwing because pure str throwers will become very inaccurate.
I have always been a thrower, and after reading this it seems to me that you know very little about throwing. Throwing has been nerfed, the speed on the shot is so slow now, it seems like when i throw my lances am throw papper ballz around. Its like now you when you throw you have to lead ur shot ahead of the person about 3 sec or you will just miss.Yes maybe war darts and daggers can do damg and are easy to throw but that is just because you other dont have a sheild or are wearing light gear. 2hander will cry when fighting a thrower but only if they knew how hard it is to throw. Getting to 30 str to throw makes you soooo very slow, and you have to leak points into throw wpf and into pt..meaning your fighting skillz will be weak, most throwers suck ass till late game around lvl 20+
Also thorwing weapons often gose tho the person up close, almost like they were a ghost... i hope one day that will be fixed, so to sum it up, light damg shitty weapons are easy to throw, but the better items are hard to throw... (i can talk about throwing for hours lol XD )
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But, why, then, Is there so many throwers right now?
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But, why, then, Is there so many throwers right now?
Because of the overreaction to archery nerf.
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there are so many throwers because people are giving up archery because it was nerfed way to much, an insane amount in fact. so now ppl are becoming throwers to compensate fot the fact that there archer charecters are now a useless joke. Until archery is buffed somewhat to a reasonable lvl we will see plenty of throwers on the battlefield
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fools this was not a "How to nerf throwing" thread, but how to FIX.
it depends entirely how it is implemented it could make throwing much more powerful or worse.
but most people agree throwing does too much damage, and imo its too inaccurate I hate the randomness of it when I play thrower. so with this suggestion throwing could be innacture but powerful, weak but very accurate or a mix of both depending on how you spec your character.
it add class diversity which is currently completely lacking for throwers.
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I love throwing the way it is and i dont think it needs anything
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I'm sorry mate but it's not about what you love, it's about 2h/poleaxe users wanting to run carelessly on the battlefield fearing nothing except people with longer 2h/poleaxe weapons. Archers got their bit of hate, now it's whine about throwing time.
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the exact same way archery was fixed ages ago when archers used to go went pure str and do way to much damage. make powerthrow inc damage but not accuracy aswell. make throwing wpf actually decently effect accuracy, and required for accuracy. this way to be an accurate thrower you need agility aswell as str, unlike atm where you just go pure str for the most accuracy and damage. this indirectly reduces the damage of throwing because pure str throwers will become very inaccurate.
EDIT: I do not thinking throwing is overpowered, I think it is broken. see my post below.
I support this entirely.
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Seems the Archer nerf isn't as bad anymore, I see more and more Archers right now who seem pretty accurate. Okay they do less dmg but if they hit u more often u are dead anyway.
In my opinion throwing is not op at the moment as u all say. But something should be done.
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but most people agree throwing does too much damage
I am not sure this is a true statement. So far in this thread, it sounds like your "most people" only includes you. I played a pure thrower since I started CRPG, and throwers got a HUGE nerf post-patch.
I think throwing is fine. The only thing that needs changed is shoot speed on the weapons needs buffed back towards the way it was pre-patch. Maybe not all the way, but perhaps a happy medium.
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I am not sure this is a true statement. So far in this thread, it sounds like your "most people" only includes you. I played a pure thrower since I started CRPG, and throwers got a HUGE nerf post-patch.
I think throwing is fine. The only thing that needs changed is shoot speed on the weapons needs buffed back towards the way it was pre-patch. Maybe not all the way, but perhaps a happy medium.
Yes. And more accuracy, just a little bit.
I got a bit flamed for using lances but really, I only have 2 per stack and they cost me a fortune. Also their flying speed is very low, it's more of a shotgun. Moar speed and accuracy. Please :/
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I am not sure this is a true statement. So far in this thread, it sounds like your "most people" only includes you. I played a pure thrower since I started CRPG, and throwers got a HUGE nerf post-patch.
I think throwing is fine. The only thing that needs changed is shoot speed on the weapons needs buffed back towards the way it was pre-patch. Maybe not all the way, but perhaps a happy medium.
I see alot of people whine about throwing damage, see this thread
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,710.0.html
only reason people posting "throwing is fine" here is because 90% of the people attracted to read this thread are throwers.
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only reason people posting "throwing is fine" here is because 90% of the people attracted to read this thread are throwers.
How could you...!
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I really don't think they are OP, but the shotgun-like usage of them may frustrate other melee players.
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Doesn't change the fact that people ALWAYS complain about things that kill them. Things are NOT OP just because Tom, Dick, and Harry say they are.
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I hate you herion and your throwing thingys that hurt me!
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I hate you herion and your throwing thingys that hurt me!
They don't hurt you these days, because I rarely play my thrower any more. It's far too frustrating having been nerfed that hard.
I've decided that the most effective way to get the classes I want nerfed in this game to be nerfed, is to play them. So I will likely be playing a polearm character next, so I can make people cry, and they will get nerfed too. Then EVERYONE can be nerfed into the ground. Yay for a game where no one gets hurt, EVARRRR!!!!
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<----- Not a Thrower but i use 2h atm i think throwing is fine like it is and i speak as an Prey of throwing!
The Point is it deals a lot of damage but the Chance is like 50/50 to survive because the throwing is not that fast!
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I'm 2h too, they are really annoying, but since there is no problem getting kills with 2h - eh, I may not have asked for the axe in my face while I was rushing someone else, but I'm sure noone asks for my lolstab in his back either. As long as it doesn't happen to often I don't see a reason to call it op.
Well, I don't like it as it is too much for personal preference, but be aware that rewarding throwers for agi also makes them more happy to invest in evil agi defense skills like kiting and shielding, like archers before the patch.
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They don't hurt you these days, because I rarely play my thrower any more. It's far too frustrating having been nerfed that hard.
I've decided that the most effective way to get the classes I want nerfed in this game to be nerfed, is to play them. So I will likely be playing a polearm character next, so I can make people cry, and they will get nerfed too. Then EVERYONE can be nerfed into the ground. Yay for a game where no one gets hurt, EVARRRR!!!!
lol i dont like playing on native_ats as much i use too... i like playing on papapedo due to the fact throwing was nerfed pretty hard... i think once i hit lvl 31 i will retire and do the same thing you are gonna do lol but i will be the OP 2hander till that gets nerfed lol
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I always wanted to try polearms
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I have a throwing alt, and I have to say that this suggestion would completely kill throwers.
Right now, thrown weapons just saunter through the air. I feel that this is bad for the game for a number of reasons.
First off, thrown weapons feel like they are thrown at a speed slower than I can throw in real life. Considering how many times I've injured my arm, coupled with the fact that I am by no means an Olympic javelin thrower, this needs to be changed.
Secondly, this is a severe nerf for throwers. While a damage nerf or any other stat change might reduce the killing-power of throwing weapons, reducing the throwing speed makes it more likely an ally will walk into a thrown weapon and make throwers completely unusable in a wide variety of situations. The other effect of this, is that much more of thrown weapons is given to chance over skill.
I suggest a complete change to how throwing is examined in the current patch.
- Increase projectile speed to 26-28. Currently most thrown weapons fall between 22-20 speed. Most bows have a projectile speed of 60, so thrown weapons will still be significantly slower than an arrow, and therefore a less than ideal choice for far-off targets.
- Decrease the overall accuracy of throwing weapons.
- Reduce the penalty given for throwing while moving. This means you will be more accurate while chasing down a target like a fleeing archer. This will give thrown weapons a different role than crossbows and bows
- Decrease high end thrown weapon's damage by 10%. Overall armor has decreased, damage should decrease with it to compensate. Low level weapons like shuryukens and throwing daggers should not be affected.
The overall change would encourage throwing to be a viable option for not only throwers, but also for people who use a thrown weapon as a side arm instead of the tradtional crossbow. This will add more variety to the battlefield and present players with the potential to have a more customizable character.
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Full plate can survive a throwing lance blow as I've seen.
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I got a fix, very balanced too I think
1. Lower the PT bonus for throwing. Because high level throwers one shotting people in the leg is just plain silly, especially with an axe
2. Increase stack size by two. To make up for the lessend effective damage, you get another two projectiles!
If one isn't possible, just lower the base damage stats
As a thrower I prefer the darts simply becuase I get more of them
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one shotting people in the leg is just plain silly, especially with an axe
Have you been hit in the leg with a throwing axe? I don't know, that shit tends to stop a man from running around and fighting. OK, maybe not balanced, but not really silly - twohanders do the same all the time.
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Have you been hit in the leg with a throwing axe? I don't know, that shit tends to stop a man from running around and fighting. OK, maybe not balanced, but not really silly - twohanders do the same all the time.
A 2h could theoretically chop your leg OFF
A throwing axe would damage you, not kill you...
THIS IS WHY WE NEED BODY PART DAMAGE!
So if you get hit in the leg, you move slow. Hit in the body, you don't deal as much damage. Hit in the head attack speed be lowered
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This is action movie logic. If you get hit in the leg, you FUCKING COLLAPSE IN PAIN.
Oh and probably pass out from blood loss in a minute.
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A throwing axe hitting your leg would most definatly break it. If it manages to miss the bone somehow, it will tear through your muscles, arteries and nerves.
Try standing on that.
Back on topic:
Banok, ever played a thrower? If you haven't, I suggest to try it. There's nothing wrong with throwing atm. The only reason a lot of people get killed because of throwing weapons is because of the increasing number of throwers. Those numbers will now dwindle again, as the archers got buffed a bit.
Look at the scores of an individual thrower, even the skilled ones only get 2:1 or maybe 3:1 kd ratio's. That's nothing different from any other class around.
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A 2h could theoretically chop your leg OFF
A throwing axe would damage you, not kill you...
THIS IS WHY WE NEED BODY PART DAMAGE!
So if you get hit in the leg, you move slow. Hit in the body, you don't deal as much damage. Hit in the head attack speed be lowered
several locations where a hit to the leg would either be fatal or render you unable to fight.
#1 if it hits the femoral artery or femoral vein.
#2 if it hits your tibula (kneecap.) Would be unable to walk, leaving you out of battle, plus with the surgery of the time, you would probably die. Knee surgeries are complicated and difficult even by today's standards.
#3 Achilles tendon. You would be unable to walk or run, knocking you out of the battle. This sort of wound is also unrepairable.
These are all just to name a few.
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A throwing axe hitting your leg would most definatly break it. If it manages to miss the bone somehow, it will tear through your muscles, arteries and nerves.
Try standing on that.
Back on topic:
Banok, ever played a thrower? If you haven't, I suggest to try it. There's nothing wrong with throwing atm. The only reason a lot of people get killed because of throwing weapons is because of the increasing number of throwers. Those numbers will now dwindle again, as the archers got buffed a bit.
Look at the scores of an individual thrower, even the skilled ones only get 2:1 or maybe 3:1 kd ratio's. That's nothing different from any other class around.
yeah I had several thrower characters. used to be semi thrower on ninja_banok, had banuk which pre patch was polearm/javelin thrower with 6 pt. then I had the infamous boyakasha_zulu with 10 powerthrow and lolances.
IM NOT ASKING FOR A NERF.
I dont think throwing is imbalanced I just think it could be improved alot to make it more interesting and viable other than pure str/damage throwers. with my idea you could make a high agility accurate thrower with low damage, or a inbetween mix. aswell as the current str stacking builds.
tbh if anything I'm asking for a buff, make throwing wpf actually do something and not be useless. and also reduce the wait of many throwing weapons imo. I used to carry 3 stacks of javs on banuk which was 12 wieght, at least make it equal to arrows/bolts
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Ad Versatile/Dex throwers
We actually had that before the patch, I had pt 4/throw 100 and normal darts, it wasn't really great, worse then khergit bow actually, but I didn't carry a shield which I could easily have done. Didn't score many kills with them, but accuracy and speed were quite ok and they were useful.
Shooting a peasant that tries to gang you with a tincan, forcing a runner to get in close where you could actually use your short weapon, distracting archers. And occasionally even win archer duels or headshot a dangerous enemy. And of course now that it counts they also come very cheap.
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several locations where a hit to the leg would either be fatal or render you unable to fight.
#1 if it hits the femoral artery or femoral vein.
#2 if it hits your tibula (kneecap.) Would be unable to walk, leaving you out of battle, plus with the surgery of the time, you would probably die. Knee surgeries are complicated and difficult even by today's standards.
#3 Achilles tendon. You would be unable to walk or run, knocking you out of the battle. This sort of wound is also unrepairable.
These are all just to name a few.
[smartass comments]
#1 Or any of the nerves in your leg. Can't move your muscules without the nerves!
#2 What's a tibula? I know of a fibula and a tibia in the lower leg and a femur in the upper leg. The kneecap is called a patella.
#3 You can still walk when your achilles tendon is split (be it far from normal), you can't run anymore though.
Any fleshwound was potentially lethal in those days, be it in your arm or leg.
It's safe to say that about 80%-90% of the throwing axe hits on your leg would either put you out of the fight or out of your misery.
[/smartass comments]
I dont think throwing is imbalanced I just think it could be improved alot to make it more interesting and viable other than pure str/damage throwers. with my idea you could make a high agility accurate thrower with low damage, or a inbetween mix. aswell as the current str stacking builds.
tbh if anything I'm asking for a buff, make throwing wpf actually do something and not be useless. and also reduce the wait of many throwing weapons imo. I used to carry 3 stacks of javs on banuk which was 12 wieght, at least make it equal to arrows/bolts
Wpf allready adds accuracy. It's effect is about 100 wpf for roughly 2 levels of PT.
Imo, the way to go (and not completely destroy the strength build throwers) would be to increase the accuracy gained from wpf from a certain point. Maybe 120 or so WPF.
With my current strength build, I will never make it to 120 wpf, so I would need to sacrifice PT to get that. You just have to make it worth the tradeoff in damage.
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I've been melee for 4 generations, now I have 3 proficiencies at generation 5. What are they you might ask? 1h, 2h, and THROWING. For this, I have 72 or so WPF. 85 in the 1h/2h. I also have to invest 3 points of power throw into it. Weapon proficiencies work for Throwing, and are required for accuracy. I could shoot a bow without proficiency on this character by replacing throwing with it. Will it be like an archer? no, but it's still a weapon. I'll do damage, but not be too accurate.
Anyway, higher end throwing weapons have only 2 weapons per slot, but still people go pure throwing and can get 6-8 kills easy with those weapons. They're just annoying because they 1-hit constantly. It also takes 7 power throw in order to 1-hit, along with proficiency, which takes a while to get. But just as HA goes, that's no excuse. I would only justify lowering the power to HIGHER-END throwing weapons.
EDIT: Not very well put together, but my point is in there somewhere.
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Playing a dedicated thrower is not easy.
As it is now hitting is random more then ever and the hittbox problem where the projectile ghost throe the body is ofcourse frustrating because some know how to exploit this weakness. It was less a problem when the projectiles was faster. (hittbox issue is an engine shortcoming right?)
For one hitting you need to gimp melee and it still isent enough if the target is heavily armed (unless you hitt the head with a Jarid and its hard enough to hitt any part) also having to bring all the weight of projectiles makes you slow so when you miss or ghost it, only one shoot missed means its very, very likely you get closed up on and killed but that may be a healthy balance with the hefty dmg we have right now. Still dedicated heavy throwers is an important factor in the paper, rock scissors game and should be a threat to the pole-arm user and I think they are.
Throwing was a counter for rangers and xbow men aswell as it could stagger them enough for you to get up close and personal so I welcome a bit more speed and accurate throwing for smaller projectiles with less damage applied to make hybrids more valid.
Now I like the way Banok thinks because creating ways of mixing and choosing between throwing styles creates diversity and makes it more fun so the best would be if it was a good choice in builds, "fast and accurate low dmg (interupter), slow and inaccurate and a lots of dmg (horsekiller, support and close range glasscannon), a happy medium and a Hybrid choice."
Actually thinking about it, making Power throw be strictly about raising accuracy and weapon points be for more damage would be very interesting now with the harse curve of weapon points at about 100. Food for thoughts.
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The problem is not in the OPness of the individual thrower or anything. The problem is that there are just so many fucking throwers right now. What i see on the servers is at least 1 thrower/hybrid to 1 pure melee player right now. And then there are the archers and crossbowmen (the former of whom was just fucking fine before the arrow buff :/)
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Lol @the best throwers have at best 3:1 ratio, the ones i see in the game have 10:1 usually. They are very accurate and do shitloads of damage. They can oneshot full str specced characters wearing plate. I'll reroll agi and spam like a ninja if throwing doesn't get fixed, not much of a choice there. More hp from a str build is meaningless when a throwing weapon can still oneshot you (and it's ironic that a bigger 2h version of the same weapon won't oneshot you).
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yeah funny thing is the more people roll a thrower the more powerful throwers become, like an infection because they give each other ammo xD
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throwing wpf is currently not worth investing it at all. even more useless than xbow wpf before .200, since you can get way more accuracy from pt.
playing a thrower is not fun because of the randomness and innaccuracy of the projectiles. remove accuacy from power throw, make throwing wpf increase accuacy ALOT. and throwing instantly becomes more fun and viable.
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Lol @the best throwers have at best 3:1 ratio, the ones i see in the game have 10:1 usually. They are very accurate and do shitloads of damage. They can oneshot full str specced characters wearing plate. I'll reroll agi and spam like a ninja if throwing doesn't get fixed, not much of a choice there. More hp from a str build is meaningless when a throwing weapon can still oneshot you (and it's ironic that a bigger 2h version of the same weapon won't oneshot you).
You're very good at exaggerating. They are NOT accurate and they do NOT one shot full strength specced melee builds while wearing plate. Not even with throwing lances. With PT 9 it takes me 3 (1 times heirloomed) heavy throwing axes to kill a clanmate with 11 IF and MAIL armour.
Pre-patch, with 10 PT, it took me 2 body shots with throwing lances to kill him when he was wearing plate.
Ever got overhead hit by a flameberge or nodachi? Pretty much a 1 hit kill all the time. They can do it over and over again, while my ammo is limited and I'm close to helpless in melee.
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yeah funny thing is the more people roll a thrower the more powerful throwers become, like an infection because they give each other ammo
Yeah, that's kind of sucky. Dodge 20 throwing axes, but no, your teammates like chucking new ammo over to him... :lol:
But throwing wpf is worth investing since it gives extra damage (afaik), maybe they could turn it around and have pt increase accuracy mostly and damage a little and wpf increase damage and no accuracy.
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Yeah, that's kind of sucky. Dodge 20 throwing axes, but no, your teammates like chucking new ammo over to him... :lol:
But throwing wpf is worth investing since it gives extra damage (afaik), maybe they could turn it around and have pt increase accuracy mostly and damage a little and wpf increase damage and no accuracy.
why would you turn it that way o_O
power throw = damage
wpf = accuracy
like how it works for archery makes so much more sense.
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Well, first thing I think they tried to make wpf affect accuracy, but it didn't work. Maybe it works the other way round.
Also what I really think is bad is when a dangerous thrower can hide behind a huscarl shield. So, ok, you get close and he has to fight in melee but all he does is press RMB. Then you have to leave him alone for a second because someone else attacks you ... and bam, headshot. Of course, that may not affect blockcrush builds very much.
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The problem is not in the OPness of the individual thrower or anything. The problem is that there are just so many fucking throwers right now. What i see on the servers is at least 1 thrower/hybrid to 1 pure melee player right now. And then there are the archers and crossbowmen (the former of whom was just fucking fine before the arrow buff :/)
This.
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In my opinion.. There will always be OP classes, and players who whine about it because they can't kill everything they see. So people: Please grow up and try to find a sollution to defeating throwers before you complain on forums. Every class is OP imho. Balbaroth is OP for 1hand, Kalam is OP for 2handspam, ATS guys spam Awlpikes and medium armor like crazy, and kesh is equally OP as an archer. These are the people who have found solutions to killing other Op's and have actually analyzed that their usual strategy isn't going to work...
...This is something we all should do. :rolleyes:
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Well my thrower (Tomahawked) is build with 9 agi and right now 28str. as in 9PT and sadly i have to say that i agree with the OP...
Throwing right now is the easiest way to get kills.
I suck at melee find archery very boring and didn't try xbows yet but from the killspeed i can get with my throwing axes i highly doubt even a melee could keep up...
it is already a bit luck based if you hit or not but to be honest i'd rather see the accuracy without WPF further reduced but better at the end of the WPF line.
the most fun and the most rewarding gamestyle in this game is melee as you have to work for your kills and i actually got better at blocking from switchting into melee mode with my throwing axes.
also i don't see why throwing should not depend on it's WPF at all... that's kinda stupid.
i understand people who use ranged stuff as it makes the game playable against the really good players and is also needed against cav but it's still not as much fun as everyone could have.
tonight was totally range night and it was really boring :/
just saying :mrgreen:
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There's sadly nothing to be fixed .. Throwers have been already nerfed and reducing the accuracy (which is already pretty inacurate imo) will make thrower switch to an other class...you want throwers to throw in melee fights ? (only a few meter range) Then give a little chance
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Throwing is not overpowered, simply overpopulated.
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Well my thrower (Tomahawked) is build with 9 agi and right now 28str. as in 9PT and sadly i have to say that i agree with the OP...
Throwing right now is the easiest way to get kills.
I suck at melee find archery very boring and didn't try xbows yet but from the killspeed i can get with my throwing axes i highly doubt even a melee could keep up...
I like your style, baby.
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These are the people who have found solutions to killing other Op's and have actually analyzed that their usual strategy isn't going to work...
...This is something we all should do. :rolleyes:
Telling people who currently do not think outside the box to think outside the box is not thinking outside the box.
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Throwing is not overpowered, simply overpopulated.
+1
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Yeah, I have noticed a lot more throwers recently, many of them probably former archers, and being a rock/lance thrower since before Halloween I have to say, the extra ammo around is nice, but I don't think it's overpowered. I still have to chase down any of the 8 lances that I miss in most battles. Even only wearing a sturdy robe and leather cap I have income problems. And since most throwers put their points into str, melee abilities are often very weak. Factor in the general inaccuracy. Throwing is still a fairly well balanced support/secondary role in cRPG.
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Throwing is not overpowered, simply overpopulated.
and you don't think that might be a sign that right now throwing is the easiest way to get kills?
which one could translate into it is slightly unbalanced?
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and you don't think that might be a sign that right now throwing is the easiest way to get kills?
which one could translate into it is slightly unbalanced?
No. Throwing is fine. It actually got nerfed in the patch.
If you're an archer, shoot them when they're out of range. If you're an xbowman, same. If you're a shielder, just go face smash em.
If you're a non-shield melee....well, thems the breaks bub.
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IMHO. One of the easiest ways to solve throwing would be to:
1) PT raises only damage
2) WPF increases speed and accuracy
3) Raise accuracy several time, so that 100 wpf invested into throwing would make reticule very precise
4) Lower amount of ammo several times. So let's say daggers not more than 4 per stack, axes 2-3 and so on
This way it would be skill based and prevent spamming, dedicated thrower would be a bit useless and hard as you run out of ammo very fast (unless you use daggers\shurikans or similar), at the same time it still be a good situational weapon if used at right time. Like 2h is charging at you and you can throw 1-2 axes at him, or damage shield. With improved accuracy you could 1hit kill lightly armored enemy but you need to be smart to not waste your ammo too soon or on not important enemy, think twice about throwin into melee with friendlies and etc, you could target head or feet but again as ammo is limited you would need more player skill to use it effectively.
So basically I support Banok's idea but propose additionaly lower amount of ammo.
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and you don't think that might be a sign that right now throwing is the easiest way to get kills?
which one could translate into it is slightly unbalanced?
The majority of players do play Polearm/2hand.
Saying that a "class" is overpowered just because alot plays as it is no-good.
Throwing might be strong. Yes.
But they got limited ammo compared to archers. These pure archers without a melee weapon have loads of arrows while an thrower don't.
They can't waste 4+ throws on one enemy.(Using high-end throwing weapons that is)
Their range absolutely sucks. It's hard and very bad accuracy.
This forces them to be close to melee were they are in a bad position due to the bump nerf for ranged people in melee.
Throwers on the other hand are as mentioned - really strong. Their aim doesn't really change much while moving. Nor does their aim get worse over time like archers.
Throwers are right now, really realistic and balanced.
They are incredible strong. If you compare getting a quite big throwing axe right in your leg compared to a small arrow so can you obviously see the damage diffrence.
They can be used in far range, but are really hard. Due to the weight of the weapon and the fact that the player himself have to throw it really hard to give it enough speed to actually fly far.
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dedicated thrower would be a bit useless and hard as you run out of ammo very fast
and you think killing a whole class on it's own is a good way of balancing?
further reducing ammo is just not an option except you give throwers way better accuracy which you really don't want to do, trust me.
what throwing needs right now is using WPF for accuracy and we'll see a way better balanced mixture of builds and the average damage throwers do will be reduced by the need for agility.
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You're very good at exaggerating. They are NOT accurate and they do NOT one shot full strength specced melee builds while wearing plate. Not even with throwing lances. With PT 9 it takes me 3 (1 times heirloomed) heavy throwing axes to kill a clanmate with 11 IF and MAIL armour.
Pre-patch, with 10 PT, it took me 2 body shots with throwing lances to kill him when he was wearing plate.
Ever got overhead hit by a flameberge or nodachi? Pretty much a 1 hit kill all the time. They can do it over and over again, while my ammo is limited and I'm close to helpless in melee.
i eat spawnys ammo cos it tastes gooood
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and you think killing a whole class on it's own is a good way of balancing?
further reducing ammo is just not an option except you give throwers way better accuracy which you really don't want to do, trust me.
what throwing needs right now is using WPF for accuracy and we'll see a way better balanced mixture of builds and the average damage throwers do will be reduced by the need for agility.
Class wouldn't dissapear, you would need to use some lesser throwing weapon to go dedicated - more ammo. Why not give them a better accuracy? Archer can hit for sure from 10 meter if you don't see him, maybe even headshot, same would be true for thrower with much higher damage but with much less amount of ammo.
Woudn't it be cool for skilled player to put throwing axe right into the head from 30 meters, because he knows how to lead target and take into account distance, rather than spam spam spam from 10 meter hoping to get a lucky shot?
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oh i would certainly like it but i am pretty sure most poeple do not appreciate axes in their heads :mrgreen:
i mean if i get 12 instead of 16 axes but can actually be sure to hit my target that would effectively give me more hits than i get right now if i get unlucky.
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i eat spawnys ammo cos it tastes gooood
You do... *sob*
3) Raise accuracy several time, so that 100 wpf invested into throwing would make reticule very precise
4) Lower amount of ammo several times. So let's say daggers not more than 4 per stack, axes 2-3 and so on
I have a pure strength thrower and I'm level 25 now. Just 1 point in WM iirc and I have 100 wpf. Your first suggestion wouldn't make a difference for me.
Lower end throwing weapons allready got their stacksize reduced. Why for the love of god would you reduce the amount of daggers you can throw to 4 per stack when you need 4-6 body shots on anyone with the 6.7k mail armour to kill him. A lot more when he has plenty of IF.
You're basically limiting the amount of kills a thrower can get in 1 round to 2, maybe 3.
Same with axes. I need 2 or 3 hits to kill most people. Some guys take 4 and a strength based dude with his plate armour can take up to 6. Pre-patch, it took me 7 bodyshots with axes to kill Casimir...
Class wouldn't dissapear, you would need to use some lesser throwing weapon to go dedicated - more ammo. Why not give them a better accuracy? Archer can hit for sure from 10 meter if you don't see him, maybe even headshot, same would be true for thrower with much higher damage but with much less amount of ammo.
Ah, so being a dedicated thrower would require you to take the low tier throwing weapons and the hybrids can take the high end ones. I always thought being dedicated to a certain class meant you specialized and got access to the top tier stuff.
Quick comparison to archery: I get killed by 2 arrows to the chest. (Low armour, 65 hp) An archer brings 18 arrows per quiver iirc, so that would allow him to kill me 9 times for every quiver he brings, provided he doesn't miss.
I, as a thrower, would be able to bring 10-12 throwing axes in total, allowing me to kill the same archer 10-12 times (1 hit kills assumed and again, I didn't miss a single axe).
If you add those numbers (3 quivers*9 kills), the archer can potentially kill me 3x as often as I can kill him and I didn't even mention upkeep yet.
Factor in melee fighters usually have higher armour= halving the amount of kills I can make a round.
Again, how is it fair when a perfect thrower has the potential to kill just 6 players, when a perfect archer can kill so many more?
Throwers are powerfull, being hit by them hurts, but that's it. As long as there are loads of throwers around and it's still pretty rare to see them on the top of the killing list, it's a quantity problem.
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1) dedicated thrower can take more ammo - advantage
2) dedicated thrower deals more damage using throwing weapon - advantage
Maybe damage needs buff but if you would have much greater accuracy player skill would be more important to hit enemy and don't waste ammo.
Ah, so being a dedicated thrower would require you to take the low tier throwing weapons and the hybrids can take the high end ones. I always thought being dedicated to a certain class meant you specialized and got access to the top tier stuff.
Not really, hybrid might take just 2-3 axes, you would take 8-12, at the same time lower tier weapon might be more reasonable if improved accuracy allows you to target head.
Just to summarize: buff damage, buff accuracy, drastically nerf amount of ammo.
Throwers are powerfull, being hit by them hurts, but that's it. As long as there are loads of throwers around and it's still pretty rare to see them on the top of the killing list, it's a quantity problem.
Exactly, even if you are skilled player it's hard to get to top as thrower, cause your own skill is gimped by random number generator.
Quick comparison to archery: I get killed by 2 arrows to the chest. (Low armour, 65 hp) An archer brings 18 arrows per quiver iirc, so that would allow him to kill me 9 times for every quiver he brings, provided he doesn't miss.
I, as a thrower, would be able to bring 10-12 throwing axes in total, allowing me to kill the same archer 10-12 times (1 hit kills assumed and again, I didn't miss a single axe).
If you add those numbers (3 quivers*9 kills), the archer can potentially kill me 3x as often as I can kill him and I didn't even mention upkeep yet.
Factor in melee fighters usually have higher armour= halving the amount of kills I can make a round.
Again, how is it fair when a perfect thrower has the potential to kill just 6 players, when a perfect archer can kill so many more?
Wait, why would you compare it to archers? Following the same pass polearm user can take great berdish and 1hit 20 people and don't waste any "ammo", making it much viable than any ranged at all.
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I really don't think throwing needs 'fixed'.
The new patch has seen a renaissance in throwing, yes; but I think that it will subside in time as the novelty wears off and more players learn how to counter throwers. I am finding it a little hard to understand why people think that it's overpowered. I think that anxieties will be quelled as the numbers of people experimenting with new post-patch builds settle and they return back to their old familiar modes of play.
Throwing has has a lot going against it: the slow projectile speed (recently nerfed), limited number of projectiles, questionable accuracy unless standing perfectly still and the detrimental effect on melee ability imposed by choosing a thrower build, more than balance things out!
I think it's rather ridiculous that a playing style that has always been quite rare, which then gets some nerfs along with an indirect buff (less people wearing plate, less armoured horses, etc) - with the result that more people (though still a minority) now choose to adopt that playstyle - is singled out for further nerfs!
And the myths being propagated about throwing! Don't get me started on those! All these people speaking of being 'one-shotted' are likely exaggerating grossly. I have PT 8 and still had to put three (heirloomed, 40 pierce) throwing spears into someone wearing light plate yesterday evening. Against people wearing durable medium armour it usually takes two. When someone is running at you, dodging, putting just one projectile into them is difficult, let alone two or three; and this is compounded by the increased number of people carrying heavy shields. A thrower's life is difficult, and not the easy-mode people are claiming it to be.
Thank you.
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I think all the talk about ammo is abit moot when if you miss you can pick up you weapon, and in the current state throwers feed each other axes and what not all the time. A throws misses, B picks up throws etc etc
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I think all the talk about ammo is abit moot when if you miss you can pick up you weapon, and in the current state throwers feed each other axes and what not all the time. A throws misses, B picks up throws etc etc
You can also pick up arrows and bolts.
Still they have much bigger amount of ammo?
Or have they changed arrows so you can't pick them up?
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You can also pick up arrows and bolts.
Still they have much bigger amount of ammo?
Or have they changed arrows so you can't pick them up?
You throw shit like ten feet so archers and throwers are like apples and oranges. Just because they both are ranged doesn't mean you can qq of course you pick up arrows as an archer but i don't see what your point is? You want archers to have less ammo? or you think that throwers have too little?
I was just saying that throwers ammo is a moot point as if they miss they usally have just thrown it 20 foot in front of them assuming they have the ammo for that fight and they win they can simply pick up the misses also during the fight they have the option to use javs, axes etc that are thrown at them.
I said NOTHING about archers.
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As wiser men than me mentioned, the problem is overpopulation. If they could somehow make it so it was less popular, I think we wouldn't have a problem.
I believe it is in part encouraged by the fact that being a hybrid is now encouraged. How so, you ask? Once you hit 130 wpf and higher in a melee weapon, it's not worth specializing more. If you have a balanced or agility build, that's 50-100 worth of wpf you could put in another proficiency. So why not do throwing? Especially since strength will allow you to get a decent power strike, too. So what if you move like a snail, you'll slow your enemies down with your throwing weapons or infuriate them enough to rush you! And at short distances, it's about as good as archery with a bigger punch.
So: either make specialized wpf possible again by allowing more of a stack or just reduce the amount of wpf we gain further if you're that scared of fast animations.
Note: throwers who use their reticule as an example for accuracy affected by wpf, that's not the best example. Like every other weapon, the accuracy benefits bestowed by wpf lead to a 'homing effect' that's harder to display.
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You throw shit like ten feet so archers and throwers are like apples and oranges. Just because they both are ranged doesn't mean you can qq of course you pick up arrows as an archer but i don't see what your point is? You want archers to have less ammo? or you think that throwers have too little?
I was just saying that throwers ammo is a moot point as if they miss they usally have just thrown it 20 foot in front of them assuming they have the ammo for that fight and they win they can simply pick up the misses also during the fight they have the option to use javs, axes etc that are thrown at them.
I said NOTHING about archers.
The point was that you ignored one of the throwers weaknesses and said "hurr durr, I don't care. becouse I don't know anything about them anyway"
Just walking around picking up diffrent throwing weapons isn't always as simple when an enemy can appear from anywhere.
Throwing weapons that have damaged something, Especially suchs as a shield can't be retrieved. Seeing that you have to waste 2-3 throwing axes on a decent shield, and most likely more on the high-end shields Means you have wasted close to a pack of jarids or any of the other pretty much high-end throwing weapons.
If you want to have enough throwing weapons to actually kill several people, or a few shielders so do you have to skip out on the melee weapon and / or shield.
And this makes throwers really in a bad position in melee combat.
If people actually used shields(The polearm/2hand people) so would they notice that ranged characters are no big issue. Heck. You can even carry several shields just incase you hate ranged so much.
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The point was that you ignored one of the throwers weaknesses and said "hurr durr, I don't care. becouse I don't know anything about them anyway"
Just walking around picking up diffrent throwing weapons isn't always as simple when an enemy can appear from anywhere.
Throwing weapons that have damaged something, Especially suchs as a shield can't be retrieved. Seeing that you have to waste 2-3 throwing axes on a decent shield, and most likely more on the high-end shields Means you have wasted close to a pack of jarids or any of the other pretty much high-end throwing weapons.
If you want to have enough throwing weapons to actually kill several people, or a few shielders so do you have to skip out on the melee weapon and / or shield.
And this makes throwers really in a bad position in melee combat.
If people actually used shields(The polearm/2hand people) so would they notice that ranged characters are no big issue. Heck. You can even carry several shields just incase you hate ranged so much.
I don't hate ranged. And i didn't say hurr durr. And you clearly abit irrational so its pointless to carry on. peace out
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Note: throwers who use their reticule as an example for accuracy affected by wpf, that's not the best example. Like every other weapon, the accuracy benefits bestowed by wpf lead to a 'homing effect' that's harder to display.
Could you give us more details, seem interesting but I don't quite get what you mean by "homing".
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The higher your wpf is in any weapon, the more likely it is that the system will guide your weapon to your target or a more vital spot. This is easiest to see in HA and archery, where your arrow will almost bend towards the target. Pre-patch, with high melee wpf, you could see your blade occasionally twist toward the enemy's head and such. In throwing, it works somewhat like archery.
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Let the Throwers be i am not a Thrower but i love getting into a meele Fight with a Thrower on my 1h Shild Char!^^
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I really don't think throwing needs 'fixed'.
I agree. Throwing was already nerfed in the patch. Also, as Kalam mentioned, the problem is with overpopulation, not that it's over-powered.
You will be happy to hear, however, that Heroin_ATS is no longer a thrower. I gave it up with the nerf to throwing in the patch.
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The higher your wpf is in any weapon, the more likely it is that the system will guide your weapon to your target or a more vital spot. This is easiest to see in HA and archery, where your arrow will almost bend towards the target. Pre-patch, with high melee wpf, you could see your blade occasionally twist toward the enemy's head and such. In throwing, it works somewhat like archery.
mmh is there any proof for that whole claim or did i miss sarcasm?
as in is that mechanic confirmed by the devs?
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that sounds like a bullshit mechanic, hope its not true. best thing about warband is manual combat.
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Having played a thrower for a long time pre-patch, and having a targeting reticule that was enormous, I still managed to hit my target more than the reticule should have allowed. Call it dumb luck if you like. Personally, I think this mechanic is there, although I have never seen an official statement regarding it.
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Having played a thrower for a long time pre-patch, and having a targeting reticule that was enormous, I still managed to hit my target more than the reticule should have allowed. Call it dumb luck if you like. Personally, I think this mechanic is there, although I have never seen an official statement regarding it.
Yes, the targeting reticule is very strange. I really don't think it means a lot. Here is what I've noticed...
I have a small piece of blu-tack on my screen marking the centre-point and another about 1cm directly below it to judge elevation. I notice that when I quickly throw a weapon, especially while moving, the projectile really does go almost anywhere within the game's large targeting reticule. If I hold the attack for a few seconds and stop moving, the reticle settles and narrows, but is still large - so far so good. But, any shot that I now fire goes almost precisely down the absolute centre of my screen where the blu-tack is placed - regardless of the dimensions of the game's own targeting reticle. Even in this state, some shots do still go slightly off, but never with the degree of imprecision that the targeting reticule suggests. It's very strange.
My understanding is that reticule is only really there to give you an abstracted idea of the weapon's accuracy at the given time, not a literal one. In other words, when the reticle is enlarged it's less accurate, when it's smaller it's more accurate. That's it. The exact dimensions and the placement of the reticle on-screen are close to meaningless. Frankly, it seems stupid to me. :?
I would like to hear other thrower's opinions on this, though.
Just do as I do: place something to mark the centre of your screen. Use that for aiming and ignore the game's reticule. You can get some fantastic shots using this method. I wish I'd frapsed some of my hits because I've had some spectacular long range kills using throwing spears, and I've only got 7 PT at the moment.
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Oops. This is a mistake. Please delete.