cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gravoth_iii on January 17, 2018, 01:27:26 am

Title: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 17, 2018, 01:27:26 am
Its time
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: the real god emperor on January 17, 2018, 01:34:51 am
So we can get roflcopter stabbed even easier? no pls :(
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: McKli_PL on January 17, 2018, 02:01:55 am
top kek 2018 :wink:
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Yeldur on January 17, 2018, 02:12:23 am
Its time

no
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 17, 2018, 04:57:33 am
So we can get roflcopter stabbed even easier? no pls :(

People already do tons of roflcopter swings, i dont see how bringing back spinstabs would be somehow change things except make gameplay smoother.

Turnrate nerf is godawful for gameplay, it removes layers of depth in duelling and replaces it with frustrating lack of control. Spinstabs is really just a gitgud complaint, one of many and its very noticeable when you go to native and it just feels as if restraints are gone and you can play normally again.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Torben on January 17, 2018, 06:44:22 am
#lanceangle
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: ARN_ on January 17, 2018, 07:16:39 am
NO!
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: bensai on January 17, 2018, 08:29:58 am
Well some weeks ago I synced my camera movement sensitivity with the turn rate of my 1h sword (thats right a tiny little 1h sword) just to making spinning less of a camera fuck, and I've noticed when I play on my big clunky polearms or whatever that I turn at pretty much the same speed, like, really? my English bill weights 3.0  vs my knightly arming sword's 1.7 (that's well over a 50% weight increase over the Knightly arming sword) and there's barely any disparity between the weapons' turn times.

I think that the turn rate nerf should be modified so that the lighter weapons turn MUCH faster and the middle-weight 2hers and polearms get a slight slight turn buff. long maul and great maul turn rates seem pretty fine to me.

#buffswashbuckling2k18
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leesin on January 17, 2018, 08:56:44 am
Well some weeks ago I synced my camera movement sensitivity with the turn rate of my 1h sword (thats right a tiny little 1h sword) just to making spinning less of a camera fuck, and I've noticed when I play on my big clunky polearms or whatever that I turn at pretty much the same speed, like, really? my English bill weights 3.0  vs my knightly arming sword's 1.7 (that's well over a 50% weight increase over the Knightly arming sword) and there's barely any disparity between the weapons' turn times.

I think that the turn rate nerf should be modified so that the lighter weapons turn MUCH faster and the middle-weight 2hers and polearms get a slight slight turn buff. long maul and great maul turn rates seem pretty fine to me.

#buffswashbuckling2k18

+1 The only decent suggestion in here.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Panos_Tournament on January 17, 2018, 09:00:23 am
Its time

Only cunts who abuse the already broken stab mechanics of this turkish made game want this.

Cunts like you, Teeth the I play from my living room while my parents watch me, Darmaster the Italian midget gypsy, Gurnisson the Jew from Norway, etc etc etc.

Nope.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Chris_the_Animal on January 17, 2018, 10:46:37 am
Its time

It is!
This Nerf stopped Gurnisson from roflcoptering like a boss!
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Beleg on January 17, 2018, 11:29:21 am
one of many and its very noticeable when you go to native and it just feels as if restraints are gone and you can play normally again.
Well, while we're at it let's remove the drawing speed nerf for the ranged because it's definitely a restraint. I'd love to shoot 10 arrows in 5 seconds.

Or, maybe those restraints are there for a reason and "look, Native has it" isn't a valid arguement. If I preferred native gameplay, I'd play native.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gurnisson on January 17, 2018, 11:46:50 am
It is!
This Nerf stopped Gurnisson from roflcoptering like a boss!

Both true and false. I gradually went more over to pike and long spear, having used more 2D polearms before.

Most 2D polearms were harshly effected by the turnrate nerf, especially the slow, long and heavy ones. The ones relying on the overhead (English Bill, Swiss Halberd and to some extend Long Maul) got hit the hardest by the change. Shorter spears and the longer pikes are still good, even though they obviously got nerfed, with the removal of floorstabbing and the reduced turnrate. They still have niches in the game though, and might've been too powerful before.

I doubt the complete removal of the turnrate would be wise at this point, as the nerf made positive, as well as negative, impact to the game. One could argue that weapons like the longest pikes, the longest hoplite spears and the dreaded great maul needed a nerf that was not just in stats, the problem is that other weapons got hit too harshly with the change.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Kenda on January 17, 2018, 12:02:05 pm
I'm up for anything to spice up melee combat, after turnrate nerf and slowing down the game it feels like the most reliable way to land hits is to spam.. Which just isnt very satisfying at all.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Ikarus on January 17, 2018, 12:13:21 pm
Isn't melee fighting already fast enough in crpg?

We already have plenty of agi 2h heroes, running towards you and moving their upper torso like this
(click to show/hide)

I don't support even more advantages for spastic close combat
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Kenda on January 17, 2018, 12:21:30 pm
In my opinion there's only a select few with the capacity to feint like you're describing, anything to make the offense stronger for people who havent spent 5k hours in native dueling. A change wouldnt have to rely on a speed increase either but adding mechanics you can more easily use to your advantage in regards to offense.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: the real god emperor on January 17, 2018, 12:30:04 pm
People improved themselves to move freely in melee combat, people such as Spamwhore, Rest in Peace, Antonio, Darmaster etc. all do really nice plays and moves while fighting, which means it is doable with the turnrate nerf as well but it is more experience and skill based. Turnrate nerf isn't "godawful" for combat, I actually believe it's a good addition of c-RPG, in native or Mercenaries fights are as spastic as it gets, and literally anyone with an awlpike becomes a god because of retarded stab directions you'll have. Same would happen to c-RPG, 2d stabby weapons would be incredibly powerful (which they already are, especially the awlpike, but it is at least "sorta" skill based) and that is not quite pleasant for gameplay.
As Gurni said, mid range poles are the ones that got cucked the hardest by the turnrate nerf, however those are still awesome teamfighting weapons, but imo they need a boost in damage in order to compensate, to make them more rewarding.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Varadin on January 17, 2018, 12:33:51 pm
so many crying trash around here , you gotta get good and then u wont cry  8-)
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 17, 2018, 12:59:24 pm
Somebody remember the guy named Block_Down or something?
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 17, 2018, 01:30:01 pm
(click to show/hide)

Part of the reason why athletics builds are so viable at doing this is because many weapons cannot track them with the current turnrates. You literally have to match their athletics to be able to keep up with your swings/stabs. Youre complaining about something thats also a sideeffect of what the turnrate nerf created.

(click to show/hide)

Weapons being good isnt good for the gameplay? Players having little drawbacks to perform skillful actions isnt better for gameplay? The most rewarding part of the game isnt really hitting harder, its being able to win because you felt like youve played well. A glance due to turnrates against someone who's slightly faster than you and your stabby simply cant turn fast enough, well it isnt fun.

(click to show/hide)

Coming from someone whos only used high damage unbalanced polearms, youve probably never tried anything that takes more practice than simply making a held rightswing.

(click to show/hide)

Ive said it before, i would be fine with archer buffs but id also want a lot of shield buffs.



Blocking down, hardest part in the game still it seems. Why learn to block when you can simply remove gameplay aspects to help you win?
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Vibe on January 17, 2018, 01:42:59 pm
its very noticeable when you go to native and it just feels as if restraints are gone and you can play normally again.

Pretty much goes for entire cRPG combat, since everything is slower here. People got bodied too hard in native by crazy shit, complained here under the pretense of realism or abuse or whatever and with every patch over time cRPG turned into this slugfest.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Chasey on January 17, 2018, 02:48:02 pm
everyone got better and the game got slower, has made for very boring combat. Turn rate nerf and the sweet spot patch have made group fighting very hard and encourage team hits. I get team hit more on average per round then by enemies.

Since every 1 can block everything now every fight turns into a 30 second duel, until another player turns up and you gank or until a cav comes and hits you, or until 1 of you gets hit by ranged. Melee in its current state just isnt very fun on the battle server, which is why i mainly paly more ranged chars.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 17, 2018, 03:03:45 pm
What are your opinions on native ranged compared to cRPG ranged.

I like the idea of a shield based meta. Native archers are not really a thing in competitive afaik. I'd like to see similar damage, but with our reload speed pretty much, if shields would be buffed to a point where everyone would carry one.
I havent campaigned for ranged personally because ive played ranged maybe 3 times outside of throwing, always less than a full days worth. But at the moment i consider them such a small factor in winning its kinda pathetic.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 17, 2018, 03:58:19 pm
(click to show/hide)

The game is a lot about positioning, if you have a passive shield to pull out you can move anywhere. Lots of people die simply because of being caught with their pants down in the open after some fighting, thats when you need it. Or when flags spawn and theres only ranged left you simply shield up and force them on the offensive.

The issue with the current combat is how long it can take for a 1v1 to end, and because of that you basically always want to gank (Duels dont usually last that long now because everyone pretty much plays for the highest risk reward in order to finish quickly). New players have no chance because them landing 5 hits in a row to kill someone is just not going to happen, even in clusters the chance of them doing anything worthwhile is so low they'll probably just go ranged instantly to get some satisfaction, even though ranged is too hard for them as well. In native any scrub can pick up a 1h shield combo and land a good lucky hit and get a kill here and there.

People should cry about how good opposing classes are, but should also be aware how good their own is. Back then i would be pissed off at 2h's and powerhouse polearms because i had a spear and it was relatively weak in comparison. But i could also make up for with by playing a very agi based support build that would just stagger everyone. Now im just a powerhouse like everyone else.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 17, 2018, 04:31:01 pm
People confuse broken stabs and turnrate issues.
The stab was massively nerfed separately from turnrate, a couple years ago. The turnrate nerf was done before that (which also nerfed stabs).

Basically, if the turnrate was partially reverted, stabs would still be unable to drag through, and more skill (target selection) would be injected in the game, without increasing animation speed.



This would be a good thing IMO, even though its not particularly needed... but like the dev team knows, some controlled changes once in a while is good for a game.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Vibe on January 17, 2018, 04:54:16 pm
People confuse broken stabs and turnrate issues.

Stabs were never broken in the first place. You might argue "muh realism and immersion" for getting floor stabbed, but those crazy feints actually allow duels to be resolved, without them it's a stalemate for two defensive players. Heck, even native duels can still last forever until somebody decides to do something super risky. An aging game needs crazy, freeform stuff like that, because without it people will hit the limitations of the combat system over years. As others have said, 1v1s are basically not resolved anymore, all about ganks now.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Jona on January 17, 2018, 05:01:57 pm
Oh if it's just turns then fuckit.

My argument was really that the current state of melee in the game feels pretty good and doesn't need a change. At least as far as movement goes.

But if people want to turn around faster without introducing any wonky-ass animations/hitboxes, or making combat look utterly retarded then be my guest.

Well you'll be getting plenty of wonky-ass animations if the turnrate is higher. "Just turns" applies to all swings directions, stabs included. As Butan mentioned, stabs were later nerfed separately from the turnrate nerf, but this isn't to say that un-nerfing turnrate wouldn't also buff stabs.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Vibe on January 17, 2018, 07:17:58 pm
And surely everyone knows that if you hate 100% block, you just need to master Ras Frenzy's reverse double-chamber.

Fuck I didn't account for Ras Frenzy's advanced combat tricks. Disregard my posts.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 17, 2018, 08:33:51 pm
Timed sideways movements in those situations are better than any shield, and heavy armour makes it very forgiving for any mistakes I may make in dodging. If I wore lighter armour maybe i'd grab a 0 difficulty shield just to cover the head in those moments, but even so standing still with a shield is a terrible idea and I'd still move otherwise bleed health.

What you've described in 1v1 fights is that in reality, the server meta has adapted already. Because duels last so long... players have adapted so that duels dont last so long? I don't see this as a bad thing. I object to the term 'gank' as a negative thing in battles, all situational awareness in all forms is a skill and is rewarded (with 0athletics there is only one map in the rotation that I'm aware of where I'm guaranteed to be caught out alone by the whole enemy team, so I just try to do overheads on incoming lance-cav till I die). The mechanics are good enough that it's possible to win even vs several players, but it's suitably challenging. Team battles should never just be a series of 1v1 duels.

New players have no chance landing 5 hits in a row to kill? Would they really have any advantage if turn-rate was buffed? That's a strange point to raise, although it's relevant if we're purely talking about cRPG vs Native where at the start of a round in Native everyone is wearing cloth or leather at best. Tanky-ass combat is the price we pay for freedom of gear, freedom of builds, and heirloom mechanics.

Pikes and long spears are dominating the Strategus battle meta. Nothing else tips a team-fight as consistently in your favour as having them in your team. I don't cry about how good other classes are all that much, because in my head I still remember fighting against those classes in Native and not a single one of them are as strong here as they were in Native. My class lost some stuff, but it also gained a whole lot in the form of nudging and the ability to choose my own armour/build.

Id rely more on a shield than dodging patterns, though dodging is relatively usefull, just shielding to safety is even safer. Standing still with shields like you said, doesnt work, thats why shieldwalls have always been terrible. But using them as a tool to move around safely and quickly is very reliable.

Yes the meta has adapted, but the issue is that the meta isnt fun that way. It comes down to a lot of spamming like kenda has mentioned, sometimes chambers or gimmicky moves like the unarmed nudge into swings. The traditional duel experience is gone and replaced with a desperation to take down the opponent quickly. There are still moves of course like 360 swings, feints etc, but in general it feels slowed down due to other choices being gone from the mix.

And yes sorry that was a derail into native vs crpg in general, which is a concern to me since crpg hasnt seen new players since forever. But thats a thread for another day.

Pikes, longspears and hoplites have almost always been the meta all the way back since us shogunate just longspeared through anything during the peak of their power. Theyve been nerfed a lot throughout the mod but they still do work just based on the supportive playstyle being so useful. The issue still is just the feeling of lack of control. You'll teamhit a lot because you cant turn fast enough, you cant really come in and support a fast moving fight beacuse they can outmaneuver it so easily. "What are you doing, just hit him!" "I cant, i just keep glancing!" Is a classic, or of youre darmaster youll just teamhit instead.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 17, 2018, 08:42:12 pm
The traditional duel experience is gone and replaced with a desperation to take down the opponent quickly.

Well, as much as I would like a small buff to turnrate, I think it is good that the overall fighting puts more weight on pack vs pack, rather than a collection of switch duels. I would love to find a sweet point between the two, because I dont want fighting groups to devolve into duels, but I would like that the individual is slightly empowered within said groups.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 17, 2018, 08:45:51 pm
Bunch of Europeans arguing over something only Americans can approve and implement. Europeans have no devs in this anymore, nor any semblance of influence.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 17, 2018, 08:58:01 pm
Well, as much as I would like a small buff to turnrate, I think it is good that the overall fighting puts more weight on pack vs pack, rather than a collection of switch duels. I would love to find a sweet point between the two, because I dont want fighting groups to devolve into duels, but I would like that the individual is slightly empowered within said groups.

Well as far as turnrate impact on teamfights in particular it would reduce teamhits and make for better teamplay in general, i was just mentioning duels as a whole being a lowered experience. I dont think you can encourage duel playstyles more than they already are, we have entire clans just drifting around looking for solo targets.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Captain_Georges on January 17, 2018, 09:20:35 pm
Its time

sure
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gristle on January 17, 2018, 10:17:33 pm
Turnrate nerf was good for the mod. Keep it.

Bunch of Europeans arguing over something only Americans can approve and implement. Europeans have no devs in this anymore, nor any semblance of influence.

That's how NA players felt for years.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Captain_Georges on January 18, 2018, 12:44:32 am
Bunch of Europeans arguing over something only Americans can approve and implement. Europeans have no devs in this anymore, nor any semblance of influence.

that's the attitude we need to keep the mod alive, +1
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Panos_Tournament on January 18, 2018, 10:18:11 am
Coming from someone whos only used high damage unbalanced polearms, youve probably never tried anything that takes more practice than simply making a held rightswing.


What?


I have played all classes at least for one generation each.

Dont be a sore cunt, seriously.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 18, 2018, 02:01:58 pm

What?


I have played all classes at least for one generation each.

Dont be a sore cunt, seriously.

Dont be a sore cunt? Oh you sorest of all, maybe you should take your own advice.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: njames89 on January 18, 2018, 03:08:08 pm
When was the turn rate even nerfed? I don't know if I ever played before this nerf.

Was it nerfed when this gif was recorded?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


sidenote: I miss the other 2h stab animation
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: //saxon on January 18, 2018, 03:39:10 pm
nerf 2h
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 18, 2018, 04:02:55 pm
When was the turn rate even nerfed? I don't know if I ever played before this nerf.

Was it nerfed when this gif was recorded?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


sidenote: I miss the other 2h stab animation

Hard to tell since short 2h can turn a lot. Pretty sure it was nerfed there though, i think it was removed at a time where 2h had the native stab or a similar looking one at least. Its been nerfed for so long i cant remember when it was done, id assume 2012/13 because 2011 was the year of stabbing at the very least. Maybe it was even later, i remember phyrex playing around 2012 at least, and he quit due to the nerf since duelling lost so much flavour.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 18, 2018, 04:09:33 pm
When was the turn rate even nerfed? I don't know if I ever played before this nerf.

Was it nerfed when this gif was recorded?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



It was already nerfed yes.

In the mythical age of the first couple years of cRPG, you could basically turn as fast as when you're roaming, which meant you could make a 180° switch target near instantaneously. The greatest fighters of this era were lethal when fighting against multiple opponents because they could choose who to kill with ease as long as they had excellent awareness.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: njames89 on January 18, 2018, 04:17:10 pm
I guess I have played my entire cRPG career with the nerfed turn speed. Imagine how annoying I could be with even more spinning, damn.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Bronto on January 18, 2018, 04:17:48 pm
I guess I have played my entire cRPG career with the nerfed turn speed. Imagine how annoying I could be with even more spinning, damn.

Jamesnado would go from being a solid F2 to an F5.

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Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 18, 2018, 04:57:17 pm
Is this not still true? Provided that the person has excellent awareness.

As the spoiler and gif shows, this horrible slow-paced combat we're talking about in theory doesn't look or feel quite so slow or horrible in practice.

Maybe the issue isn't that the turn rate got nerfed. Maybe the issue is that the heroes from your memories were fighting plebs in 2011 that didn't know how to block. 7 years is a long time.

While it is true that the people fighting have gotten better, turnspeed still does change those fights. You cannot release an attack as early now because you have to first turn then release it in order to actually land it. Back then you could be looking at someone, release the attack and turn it on the one behind you, which makes it quite a lot faster, and harder to predict.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Panos_ on January 18, 2018, 06:13:06 pm
FT7?


easy win for me.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 18, 2018, 06:19:15 pm
Is this not still true? Provided that the person has excellent awareness.

As the spoiler and gif shows, this horrible slow-paced combat we're talking about in theory doesn't look or feel quite so slow or horrible in practice.

Maybe the issue isn't that the turn rate got nerfed. Maybe the issue is that the heroes from your memories were fighting plebs in 2011 that didn't know how to block. 7 years is a long time.

Noone said the turnrate is horrible, just hardcapped.
7 years ago the meta was different but I can guarantee you that there was already lots of players who had reached their peak and tons of hardcore fighting, it isnt at all a case of "people were bad back then".
Noone remember Phase? I can still see him kill 5-6 pretty hardcore guys in a last ditch effort solo while being ganked by double that, going from a target to another. The way it was done cannot be repeated today, no matter the skill, simple as that.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Jona on January 18, 2018, 06:58:08 pm
I can still see him kill 5-6 pretty hardcore guys in a last ditch effort solo while being ganked by double that, going from a target to another. The way it was done cannot be repeated today, no matter the skill, simple as that.

Yeah, cuz now it takes a modicum of skill to do that, whereas prior to the nerf it was free if you had high enough mouse sensitivity.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 18, 2018, 07:51:14 pm
Yeah, cuz now it takes a modicum of skill to do that, whereas prior to the nerf it was free if you had high enough mouse sensitivity.

I would rather have it be easier on the attackers point of view, and harder for the defenders. If defence is king then the slowmode engages. So if it is supposedly easier and no skill to do it in without turnspeed nerfs, then that would be preferable due to making it faster paced and it would allow even bad players to be able to perform better if he is fighting others who are not prepared in defensive gameplay.


easy win for me.

I do like FT7's even though the community always despised the "drama" from duel heroes. I'll fight if we get turnspeed revert so i can use my war spear as i once did.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Davic on January 18, 2018, 09:42:12 pm
When was the turn rate even nerfed? I don't know if I ever played before this nerf.

Was it nerfed when this gif was recorded?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


sidenote: I miss the other 2h stab animation

James is just looking for excuses to post this gif again.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Asheram on January 18, 2018, 10:06:08 pm
I wish the over head spear stab was like it used to be long time ago, you hold spear over head and stab down over shield etc instead of the overhead just being used as a clubbing swing.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Tindel on January 18, 2018, 10:11:30 pm
Remove it,  the game is so shitty to play now. Especially 1h is really crappy.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 18, 2018, 10:13:47 pm
Noone said the turnrate is horrible, just hardcapped.
7 years ago the meta was different but I can guarantee you that there was already lots of players who had reached their peak and tons of hardcore fighting, it isnt at all a case of "people were bad back then".
Noone remember Phase? I can still see him kill 5-6 pretty hardcore guys in a last ditch effort solo while being ganked by double that, going from a target to another. The way it was done cannot be repeated today, no matter the skill, simple as that.

also flags.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 19, 2018, 01:04:33 am
Yeah, cuz now it takes a modicum of skill to do that, whereas prior to the nerf it was free if you had high enough mouse sensitivity.

Your post made me remember the debates there was over this at the time  :mrgreen:  such a nice leap into memories.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: McKli_PL on January 19, 2018, 02:19:40 am
I do like FT7's even though the community always despised the "drama" from duel heroes. I'll fight if we get turnspeed revert so i can use my war spear as i once did.
since when turnrate is super important factor on warspear, this weapon and all short 4d spears are massive in duels in good hands
and i'm bit suprised that ppl who love slash stabing are not using ez tricks how to get 'pseudo' turnrate: mouse acceleration in widows settings 'on' set it to max value, dpi set to +3200(zero glancing, zero wpf penalty due to dpi) invert mouse X-axis to Y- very ez lol stabing on short distance again lower probability of glancing eg. Long Spear vs plates on strat in close combat
windows mouse settings or mouse software: double click set to left mouse button and put high value and for really good and expensive mouse turn on Angle snapping/prediction, ez tricks macro phun :wink: :D

Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Larvae on January 19, 2018, 06:33:48 am
I knew it that there are macros :P
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Xant on January 19, 2018, 08:29:24 am
Pretty much goes for entire cRPG combat, since everything is slower here. People got bodied too hard in native by crazy shit, complained here under the pretense of realism or abuse or whatever and with every patch over time cRPG turned into this slugfest.
Yeah, cRPG was at its best in 2011, then gradually over the years everything's been nerfed and made easier and the game slowed down like fuck. The skill ceiling got so much lower. Native gameplay feels so much smoother, faster, and overall better.

Yeah, cuz now it takes a modicum of skill to do that, whereas prior to the nerf it was free if you had high enough mouse sensitivity.
Yeah, "free" if you played against people of Jona skill level.

Everyone else could, you know, block and it wasn't "free" in any sense of the word. If you had any game sense yourself it was also extremely easy to predict when and who the solo guy would target next.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 19, 2018, 03:08:23 pm
since when turnrate is super important factor on warspear, this weapon and all short 4d spears are massive in duels in good hands
and i'm bit suprised that ppl who love slash stabing are not using ez tricks how to get 'pseudo' turnrate: mouse acceleration in widows settings 'on' set it to max value, dpi set to +3200(zero glancing, zero wpf penalty due to dpi) invert mouse X-axis to Y- very ez lol stabing on short distance again lower probability of glancing eg. Long Spear vs plates on strat in close combat
windows mouse settings or mouse software: double click set to left mouse button and put high value and for really good and expensive mouse turn on Angle snapping/prediction, ez tricks macro phun :wink: :D

Little do you know about spears then. Of course you can still duel with them, there are tricks that many fall for that work even without turnrates, its just that they are unreliable when someone can simply sidestep faster and make it glance.
Oh and sensitivity does nothing.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: McKli_PL on January 19, 2018, 03:44:20 pm
Little do you know about spears then. Of course you can still duel with them, there are tricks that many fall for that work even without turnrates, its just that they are unreliable when someone can simply sidestep faster and make it glance.
Oh and sensitivity does nothing.
sensitivity does nothing on stabs :mrgreen: hehehe
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: njames89 on January 19, 2018, 03:50:55 pm
James is just looking for excuses to post this gif again.

 :lol: heh uh NO...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Corsair831 on January 20, 2018, 01:05:07 pm
The turnrate nerf is the major reason duelling on cRPG absolutely sucks arse and just comes down to who gets bored and double attacks first. I spend my entire time in-game backstabbing people because fighting face to face against anyone half competent just takes hours.

Remove pls. Those of us playing these days are good enough to block it (if not, our cRPG ego's will block it for us)
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 20, 2018, 02:44:16 pm
Does this American takeover mean every balance discussion will be held in general discussion subforum? Or you are just too damn lazy to categorize topics in a proper fashion?
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Phyrex on January 23, 2018, 09:24:09 am
Of all the bullshit the devs have pulled throughout the years this one is the absolute worst.

Hindering movement and player control in an action game. What the fuck were they thinking?!
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Xant on January 23, 2018, 10:55:58 am
Of all the bullshit the devs have pulled throughout the years this one is the absolute worst.

Hindering movement and player control in an action game. What the fuck were they thinking?!
But the game has to be playable for plebs too, not just teenager 2h heroes on adderall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-actual (slightly paraphrased) dev quote
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Ikarus on January 23, 2018, 11:42:37 am
well we could give it a try and see if it improves the game or not
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: darmaster on January 23, 2018, 11:48:38 am
i can tell you now if you want
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Vibe on January 23, 2018, 12:11:33 pm
Don't think most people would like it, but then again was cRPG ever a competitive game anyway?

Probably best to just wait for Bonerlord for some smooth native gameplay again.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Paul on January 23, 2018, 12:26:45 pm
I still got the turnnerf functions lying around somewhere. I can post them when I'm back home and if Professor is ok with it.

I remember it a bit differently than "let's ruin duelling". "ok, sounds great".

More like
balancers: "people cry cause helicopter pikes. why not use WSE to make turnrate weapon weight and length related"
cmp: "gib function"
urist: *gibs function*
cmp: "done"

I think the consensus then was that it was good for battle. Balancing for battle was an overlord guideline.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Nightingale on January 23, 2018, 01:24:13 pm
About a month ago we did tweak turn rate nerf to make it less restrictive. Most players instantly complained combat felt wonky and that the server was lagging. We ultimately reverted this change after about a week as it kind of fucked with how combat felt and changing something like that... that has had a place in the mod for a good reason for years upon years is not something our goals are in line with. Turnrate nerf was a good change by donkey crew I don't advise going back. 
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 23, 2018, 04:18:34 pm
About a month ago we did tweak turn rate nerf to make it less restrictive. Most players instantly complained combat felt wonky and that the server was lagging. We ultimately reverted this change after about a week as it kind of fucked with how combat felt and changing something like that...

Not saying you cant be right about it, but the "wonkyness" could be due to a collateral, triggered by increased turnrate but not turnrate itself. Would be pretty effing stupid if a possible huge improvement to the game is put on hold indefinitely because noone did any actual QA/feedback.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Nightingale on January 23, 2018, 04:37:50 pm
We might revisit it later. I'm not entirely sure what professor changed I just know he lessened it for a short while (might even still be in game not sure). I'll ask him later.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 23, 2018, 04:55:51 pm
(click to show/hide)

It makes sense, and at the time i disagreed but not because of the same reasons i do now. And i can definitely see why people would want it. But to be blunt, current me disagrees completely with the choice, and cRPG has been the prime example for me why community input to such a degree crpg had is just not sustainable. People dont look to make their own classes fun, they look to make opposition worse. (Kind of like how many communists etc primarily do not want to make it better for the poor, but are really just wanting to take from the rich and successful.)

Since it was a learning experience for i cant expect better of the devs. But at this point i really think it needs to be considered what should be the balance philosophy, are we going for the fun and competitive top player based balance, or balance by the lowest scrubs who may not have the time to properly learn and adapt to advanced techniques. I know that balancing by the top works fine through watching and playing DOTA, it has brutal balancing where there are insane lowbie crushing heroes that arent ever even seen in the top skill categories. Yet its insanely fun for everyone because there is still so much you can do to learn and play around things, people get frustrated but they want to learn and overcome even though they probably also cry for nerfs.

Don't think most people would like it, but then again was cRPG ever a competitive game anyway?

Probably best to just wait for Bonerlord for some smooth native gameplay again.

I'd say it was always casual-competitive. Thats how i treat all the games i love. It couldve been pushed beyond that as was seen with our very fun and successful clan battle tournaments, but eventually it just died out because the majority may not have felt the same. It has been mentioned before how hated drama duels were, skill was always frowned upon and obviously nerfs have catered to the casuals.

My faith lies in bonerlord too, lets hope they treat the game like fighting game devs do. It's released in a rather complete state, not perfectly balanced but it doesnt need major fixes, players will adapt or the game will die if its just too broken.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 23, 2018, 05:26:54 pm
Don't think most people would like it, but then again was cRPG ever a competitive game anyway?

Probably best to just wait for Bonerlord for some smooth native gameplay again.

What if Bannerlord devs make similar change?

Crying over turn rate nerf is like claiming that players should be able to freely glide through the map in an action game and their weapon attacks shouldn't collide with surrounding objects, only a lot less exaggerated. Reminds me of players who abused broken CS 1.6 map geometry, then cried when CS Source fixed some of that, claiming how it ruins viable game strategy.

To answer my question myself, I've read in some dev blog how they indeed changed the way weapons behave, in a way cmp wanted to do with WSE2 but never got the time. You know, different parts of weapon model doing different damage values and working collisions , unlike in semi broken Warband.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Vibe on January 23, 2018, 06:08:45 pm
What if Bannerlord devs make similar change?

I'm ready to accept some changes and adjustments as should any player, but if they're taking control from the player then it's gonna turn out bad. Pretty sure it'd get shunned by the Warband competitive community as well.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Jona on January 23, 2018, 06:43:09 pm
Pretty sure it'd get shunned by the Warband competitive community as well.

I'm not sure how involved taleworlds is with the competitive scene, but bannerlord could very well go the same route as sfv, and well, look at that competitive scene vs sf4's.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 23, 2018, 07:03:36 pm
Sure, but if it would be such a huge improvement why did people lobby so hard to have it reduced in the first place? Temper that zeal, this isn't an experimental mechanic we've never seen before it's one that generated mountains of salt until we removed it.

Not to be contrary, but Prof could start by ignoring the community input of this thread, since that's what this is. "Devs shouldnt change stuff just cos the community wants it... but they should change this one thing that I want". This thread is largely a few no-shield infantry lobbying to get their particular class or playstyle buffed.

The people who want this change will be vocal here, the people who don't want it won't be vocal until it's actually reverted and they hate it. Being too eager to implement community input will result in a yo-yo effect where devs make changes purely based on the opinions of the loud unhappy voices, and never informed by the ones who like the current system.

To some extent this is being pitched as "yeah, make cRPG HARDER, more EXTREME" because those words sit well with this community. But at the same time some of the 'pro-turn-rate' arguments are people who are just bad and get ganked all the time because they have bad awareness and decision-making, who want it to be easier to fight against ganks. With that in mind you could flip the argument on it's head: Why should the people who like the current turn-speed want it to be 'dumbed-down' in a way that favours people with bad awareness or bad decision-making who allow themselves to be drawn into 1 vs many situations? Current mechanics still allow a very good player to win those fights, but is suitably difficult.

Well sure, but its more about reverting back to an older state that is working fine in native, rather than breaching new grounds of difficulty that have not been tested. And while true that bad decision making such as 1vs many is punished hard now as many think it should be, isnt it more fun to see the spectacle of really good players overcome those situations consistently? So that those arent bad decisions, but calculated gambles. You can often notice a bad bunch and select to fight them for easy pickings, but current mechanics will punish such decisions by limiting the ability to deal with it.

There will always be split opinions on these balances, but its like i mentioned, should it be balanced to even out skill or to allow for high skill ceilings to that people can really push performance into new areas. As one who strives to become better, i feel like i have been locked into very simple mechanics that work but arent very advanced and dont feel very rewarding.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Rebelyell on January 23, 2018, 09:22:06 pm
Well sure, but its more about reverting back to an older state that is working fine in native, rather than breaching new grounds of difficulty that have not been tested. And while true that bad decision making such as 1vs many is punished hard now as many think it should be, isnt it more fun to see the spectacle of really good players overcome those situations consistently? So that those arent bad decisions, but calculated gambles. You can often notice a bad bunch and select to fight them for easy pickings, but current mechanics will punish such decisions by limiting the ability to deal with it.

There will always be split opinions on these balances, but its like i mentioned, should it be balanced to even out skill or to allow for high skill ceilings to that people can really push performance into new areas. As one who strives to become better, i feel like i have been locked into very simple mechanics that work but arent very advanced and dont feel very rewarding.
Man I soooo disagree with anything you say about game balance in crpg that sometimes I think I hate you for only that reason.

I am sure that in your eyes everything you say makes sense but some player rather just leave that game for good that see that cancer back.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Grumbs on January 23, 2018, 09:38:43 pm
I don't really have much of an opinion on turn speed, but I would like to have a longer effective reach on the stabs. Awlpike shouldn't glance just because you're more than a foot away from someone. All the polearms have terrible glance rates atm tbh
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 23, 2018, 10:25:33 pm
Man I soooo disagree with anything you say about game balance in crpg that sometimes I think I hate you for only that reason.

I am sure that in your eyes everything you say makes sense but some player rather just leave that game for good that see that cancer back.

And some left simply due to it being implemented. Do you even play the game anymore? I guess youre probably playing under an alt if so, otherwise it seems like youre not playing now eitherway. And i cant hate you babby, youre too cute for that.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 24, 2018, 12:47:43 am
I'm ready to accept some changes and adjustments as should any player, but if they're taking control from the player then it's gonna turn out bad. Pretty sure it'd get shunned by the Warband competitive community as well.

That's very touchy topic, because even tho everyone is sane enough to recognize that "feinting" in Warband is actually abuse of broken animation system, if they leave it out by fixing that shit in Bannerlord certain percentage of Warband players will be very unhappy. Should they make the game better so it actually make sense or should they keep numerous tricks enabled by leaving broken systems in place or emulating those broken systems?

I'm fairly sure they never intented for things like two-ha duelist feinting to be a thing, it's just they couldn't test for it or maybe they've noticed it but left it in game for the lulz. But they certainly aren't wicked enough to build their game around broken system, or maybe they are. We're talking about metal loving, long haired Turks who lack mustaches and bears and can be considered as liberal (anti Erdogan). You can expect anything from such weirdos.

What you call control might be another players bug or exploit. Ultimate control in video games is god mode in games where you glide in all directions at gradually rising velocity and go through walls and stuff. You know like when you start a game in editor.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Vibe on January 24, 2018, 08:44:30 am
I'm not sure how involved taleworlds is with the competitive scene, but bannerlord could very well go the same route as sfv, and well, look at that competitive scene vs sf4's.

Fair point but not everybody is Crapcom 8-) I think TW wants the competitive scene to grow, as we've seen by them doing Battle of Bucharest for Warband a while ago.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 24, 2018, 04:48:10 pm
If players overcome those situations consistently, then it's not sufficiently difficult. I already see good players win in those situations, and it's more impressive because you don't see it all the time.

You are closing in on the actual problem: people can still overcome difficult situations (ganks, dealing with backstabs and general awereness challenges) but they are rarer artificially because the game has a hard cap (turn rate) on how much people can exploit their actual attention span / reflex time / overall motor/eye coordination. The skill oriented part of the game is what drives me, and if lots of people think the same maybe it can show a dissonance between the playerbase and the game, and justify modifications.

So yeah people still manage to overcome tough situations, but way less and players dies that wouldnt before, why? To avoid some netlag/animation spazzing up and to make combat a bit more realistic looking (people instantly 180° stabbing an opponent lol): the first is avoidable if coding permits, and the second is (for me) less important than gameplay (to a limit of course) and can still be limited.


Now I agree that we must temper our passion, thats why I'm a proponent of increasing the maximum turn rate, but not to the point we had 5 years ago. A compromise between realism/gameplay/animation.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Jona on January 24, 2018, 04:49:08 pm
Fair point but not everybody is Crapcom 8-) I think TW wants the competitive scene to grow, as we've seen by them doing Battle of Bucharest for Warband a while ago.

Cool, would be interesting to see if Bannerlord can become a decent competitive experience for both players and spectators.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 24, 2018, 05:00:05 pm
If players overcome those situations consistently, then it's not sufficiently difficult. I already see good players win in those situations, and it's more impressive because you don't see it all the time.

I too want to get better at the game, but surely wanting to move the goal-posts is the opposite? That's less about wanting to be the best you can be at the game, but wanting to make the game more convenient for you. As long as you aren't the best player in the entire game right now, there's room to grow within the current mechanics. You're far far from reaching the physical cap of how well you can play with these mechanics.

I think its more impressive to see someone be able to deal with such situations often and consistently, rather than it being a big rarity even amongst the best because it makes it a much bigger threat defensively.

I wouldnt say its moving the goal-posts, more like reverting the ball into the previously standard lighter weight since its been increased. I cant do the same curve balls with this high weight ball, and its far easier for anyone to block it because the variety of shots has been limited quite a bit. It has also crippled passing, because they will be far slower and reach shorter. I am forced into a much more solo oriented game because passes have to be so certain otherwise they'll just be interrupted. People will still try the passes and get intercepted constantly, but can you blame them? it doesnt feel natural anymore.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 24, 2018, 08:53:13 pm
If the game was changed to make these situations less rare, then the number would be artificially higher. It's artificial in either case, because you're changing a factor independent of player skill to allow a certain outcome to occur more or less easily.

In this case, increasing turn speed would be making certain behaviour easier. Should Prof sit with a cRPG leaderboard and decide that certain players that can't rambo successfully now "are good enough already, they should be allowed to rambo more easily" and change the game accordingly?

I don't hate the idea of an increase as long as it doesn't have an adverse effect on population, game performance, or the quality of animations. I still strongly suspect that the impact on 1v1 has been greatly exaggerated in this thread and that people will simply find the average skill level is just higher but I can't substantiate that.

What I do disagree with is any attempt to claim the moral high-ground by making the argument "I want the game to be harder by making it easier for me to play the way I like" or "the game took a bad turn cos devs listened to lobbying. Now do what I say!". See it for what it is, players who think their playstyle will be improved are lobbying for a change, there's no shame in that since it's what players have been doing since the mod came out.

No need to pick on a couple words and play dictionnary  :mrgreen:


The amount of exaggeration isnt crucial either, as long as you understand the reality behind the exaggerations = combat is of course longer if the game is slower or less responsive, in general.
I dont think there is a matter of high-ground as its just a debate between two ideas and where the dev stands.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Larvae on January 25, 2018, 08:01:21 am
i wonder what would happen to the playerbase that we have now,if devs turn all changes back to the model we had 2012 ( but keep ofc new weapons gear etc )

guess it would be funny.

i have no problem with increasing turnrate,never had a problem with it,not on my shielder or my 2h,u can easy adapt to some changes,thats what makes the game for me so addictive.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leesin on January 25, 2018, 10:04:41 am
I would accept the cancer of turn rate nerf removal if there is a HA buff  :lol:
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 25, 2018, 07:58:37 pm
I would accept the cancer of turn rate nerf removal if there is a HA buff  :lol:

I have no issues with HA buffs  :mrgreen: But we are in the minority.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Tindel on January 27, 2018, 11:22:10 am
Name a single good player who lobbied to have turnrate nerfed.

You cant,  it was crying from scrubs that caused it. People who could not block down.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 27, 2018, 01:56:59 pm
Name a single good player who lobbied to have turnrate nerfed.

You cant,  it was crying from scrubs that caused it. People who could not block down.

Actually it was decision made by devs, doubt scrubs knew it was possible to nerf turnrate.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 27, 2018, 05:35:43 pm
Name a good player who's lobbying to have it reverted.

I'll wait

Just look in the thread and there are multiple. I know a chunk of byzantium want it. Phyrex wants it, and at the time he was one of the best duelists. Varadin wants it.

Actually it was decision made by devs, doubt scrubs knew it was possible to nerf turnrate.

And we all know how good the devs were. But scrubs did cry that roflcopter stabs are somehow bullshit because they cant learn to block down.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: //saxon on January 27, 2018, 05:43:08 pm
be funny to see the awlpike back in action with normal turnrates, oh god the devastation
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 27, 2018, 05:46:26 pm
be funny to see the awlpike back in action with normal turnrates, oh god the devastation

Any polearm with a stab would feel so much better, and heavy ones overheads too. Im even eager to see more great mauls, if this was ever to come back.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 27, 2018, 10:06:58 pm
Great Maul benefits the most from large turn rate imho.

Chase is crying about loss of control but turn rate nerf does make fighting with weapons more delicate and skilled. Before you could start attacks with your back turned and finish them when you do one eighty which isn't very skilled thing to do. Most players who cry over nerf are those who find it difficult to calculate with limited turn rate when they are making their moves. They essentially want that complexity taken away and allowed again to make impossible moves which are 100% success due to poor original mechanics.

But since I don't play anyway and thus aren't affected by any nerf or buff, why don't you go a step further and give back polestagger too?

Quote
And we all know how good the devs were.

They were good devs which is what matters the most when it comes implementing game mechanics. If any of you lobbyist had an ability to develop software, you could easily make this change to suit your needs. But since you don't, only thing you can do is try to influence the devs which never happens. Devs do whatever devs want because they can and do not answer to anybody.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 27, 2018, 10:25:17 pm
Chase is crying about loss of control but turn rate nerf does make fighting with weapons more delicate and skilled. Before you could start attacks with your back turned and finish them when you do one eighty which isn't very skilled thing to do. Most players who cry over nerf are those who find it difficult to calculate with limited turn rate when they are making their moves. They essentially want that complexity taken away and allowed again to make impossible moves which are 100% success due to poor original mechanics.

I agree that a total removal of the nerf would be bad, but I think the turnrate could be a bit increased from where its at ATM. Basically, not giving magical abilities back to people, but at least enough that its still more controllable.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 27, 2018, 10:46:04 pm
Great Maul benefits the most from large turn rate imho.

Chase is crying about loss of control but turn rate nerf does make fighting with weapons more delicate and skilled. Before you could start attacks with your back turned and finish them when you do one eighty which isn't very skilled thing to do. Most players who cry over nerf are those who find it difficult to calculate with limited turn rate when they are making their moves. They essentially want that complexity taken away and allowed again to make impossible moves which are 100% success due to poor original mechanics.

But since I don't play anyway and thus aren't affected by any nerf or buff, why don't you go a step further and give back polestagger too?

They were good devs which is what matters the most when it comes implementing game mechanics. If any of you lobbyist had an ability to develop software, you could easily make this change to suit your needs. But since you don't, only thing you can do is try to influence the devs which never happens. Devs do whatever devs want because they can and do not answer to anybody.

Its not about being able to calculate how to hit the stab with current turnrates, its that with how crpg works you can get agi builds that can outmaneuver the turnrates. It forces an agi based meta to even be able to use your weapons properly, because the only solution to avoid glancing is to maneuver the weapon into them. A loss of control leading into a forced meta or simply to endure frustrations only otherwise avoidable by switching to a swing weapon, prefferably 2h because of length and weights.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 28, 2018, 12:02:57 am
So you'd rather even the playing field by giving everybody superpowers than fix AGI issue? From past experience with cRPG I tend to agree with you, because it is more fun playing that way because whole point of Warband/cRPG so called pro scene is in becoming good at breaking the game in various ways. As we've previously seen trying to fix things that make no sense outside of Warband 'pro player' bubble always had negative effect on enjoyment of the game/mod.

Thing is, devs look differently on things and will always use logic to try to fix things that make no sense in general and since they don't have much time to play they aren't in the loop when it comes to current metas and general feel and whole point of playing the mod.

From dev point of view the way many cRPG combat mechanics work is pure garbage of implementation and something that every sane dev will strive to fix and make better. From metagamer perspective who's deeply involved in the mod, all these little quirk and exploits present an opportunity to make playing the mod more fun and enjoyable.

Edit: I honestly thought that AGI was this way in cRPG because Fin has dirty pictures of chadz and Fin's best buddy Shanks loves his AGI build. But it seems other devs think cRPG should allow for insane AGI setups as well. Warband devs never shared that opinion, and thus you feel like walking through mud whenever you switch from juiced up cRPG AGI build to regular native builds.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: McKli_PL on January 28, 2018, 12:08:57 am
Most players who cry over nerf are those who find it difficult to calculate with limited turn rate when they are making their moves.
yes they were crying when they fucking watched some spledid duels with 2 titans of warband  :| one with 'i can chamber and revert' and other 'im agi but blocking is for scrubs'
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 28, 2018, 12:32:31 am
One of those titans is happily retired these days. Dunno what the other guy does, probably wastes inordinate amounts of time playing this mod as always.

cRPG community is just not good at haggling with devs because history of the mod shows that this community is so desperate for developers it will take anyone willing to work on the mod, no matter how much damage he/she may do. Therefore this community have little to no power over decisions made by developers. You currently have only one dev, this professor dude. Other are support, but only one is true bonafide backend dev willing to get his hands dirty. Which means he'll shape the mod the way he wants.

Modding Warband isn't that hard, it's just super annoying. And since game is very old there isn't many devs willing to work on mods. If modding allowed for more control then you'd see ever more devs working on mods but not everyones idea of fun is some weirdly formatted python files where most of the mechanics is hardcoded and all you gotta do (without WSE2) is to change bunch of values. That isn't programming, that's just crappy way to spend ones time. My daily job consist of working with bunch of data, calling different API functions on said data and shape it in a way my boss wants it. That isn't pinnacle of programming prowess either but it beats modding Warband.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: McKli_PL on January 28, 2018, 12:59:48 am
@Leshma
and i agree with 1000000% that's the whole point, why idiot balancers trying to fuck things up even more? just fucking add new weapons copy stats from similar weapons or armors (easier way to balance not having new op weapons or rigged armors  kg/armor etc) but no :!: we will try to change game mechanic (like in past this strange 2h stab) or randomly buff 1h cut weapons :!: now we have broad one handed battle axe +3 with 40cut or scimi 36 cut because some random shitter pseudo shielder glanced on heavy armor? why i never saw fucking God tier real :!: shielders going full ham not having big problems in any combat scenarios? why i see like every day good stabers toping on strat/battle doing crazy scores without making any sweet(Heibai,Lamerina,Arni with awl)? it's always crying shitters from one fucking nab clan or other useless forum warrior shits qq'ing nerf range, qq'ing revert glance mechanic, qq buff shields hp and forcefield etc
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Drunken_sailor on January 28, 2018, 01:03:35 am
plz dont, I am almost fast enough to run around people faster than they can turn.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 28, 2018, 01:51:51 am
So you'd rather even the playing field by giving everybody superpowers than fix AGI issue?

Im saying it would help more than somehow making Agi worse to disincentivise building it. It would still leave fast players to do what they enjoy, and slower ones to mechanically reliably catch up with them without having to match speeds. Id say we've seen enough evidence that nerfing does not make people stop playing things, it just makes them less enjoyable.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Renay on January 28, 2018, 02:11:25 am
I lend my voice to Gravoths cause!
It's time to get rid of it, 99.999999% of players played cRPG for years now and should be good enough to fight spinstab without this ridiculous nerf.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Butan on January 28, 2018, 02:12:25 pm
Thx Renay, we have now reached the required minimum number of good player calling for decrease/removal of turnrate nerf. Its a victory guys!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Renay on January 28, 2018, 05:41:38 pm
Thx Renay, we have now reached the required minimum number of good player calling for decrease/removal of turnrate nerf. Its a victory guys!  :mrgreen:

I know, I counted throughout the thread!

Victory!
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Leshma on January 28, 2018, 11:28:15 pm
Can we at least see how this formula looks like? I'm a bit intrigued by it but not enough to dig for it myself.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Panos_Tournament on February 14, 2018, 10:47:39 am
Just look in the thread and there are multiple. I know a chunk of byzantium want it. Phyrex wants it, and at the time he was one of the best duelists. Varadin wants it.

Oh great, since a spastic macro feinter want it, lets bring it back.


I did not know that c-rpg evolves around what byzaspastics want.

Thx Renay, we have now reached the required minimum number of good player calling for decrease/removal of turnrate nerf. Its a victory guys!  :mrgreen:

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gurnisson on February 14, 2018, 11:15:38 am
You really have a hard-on for Byzantium, Panos
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Panos_Tournament on February 14, 2018, 11:28:09 am
You really have a hard-on for Byzantium, Panos

Yeah, I hate clan stacking.
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: McKli_PL on February 14, 2018, 01:10:55 pm
Yeah, I hate clan stacking.
well  you can say about vannabs everything but this 'stack' is rather based on old friendships rather than to be super effective team :wink:
Title: Re: Remove turnrate nerf
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 14, 2018, 09:02:16 pm
Oh great, since a spastic macro feinter want it, lets bring it back.


I'd rather listen to one who actively tries to get better at the game over someone who actively wants things removed or nerfed. One who complains about clans stacking in a teambased game, yet somehow hosts tournaments which builds on this premise alone. Kind of hypocritical dont you think, or would that get in the way of your activism in order to get the people to cheer? Making up for having been one of the most despised personalities in the game from the get go perhaps?