Remove turnrate nerf

[Kenda]

In my opinion there's only a select few with the capacity to feint like you're describing, anything to make the offense stronger for people who havent spent 5k hours in native dueling. A change wouldnt have to rely on a speed increase either but adding mechanics you can more easily use to your advantage in regards to offense.

[the real god emperor]

People improved themselves to move freely in melee combat, people such as Spamwhore, Rest in Peace, Antonio, Darmaster etc. all do really nice plays and moves while fighting, which means it is doable with the turnrate nerf as well but it is more experience and skill based. Turnrate nerf isn't "godawful" for combat, I actually believe it's a good addition of c-RPG, in native or Mercenaries fights are as spastic as it gets, and literally anyone with an awlpike becomes a god because of retarded stab directions you'll have. Same would happen to c-RPG, 2d stabby weapons would be incredibly powerful (which they already are, especially the awlpike, but it is at least "sorta" skill based) and that is not quite pleasant for gameplay.
As Gurni said, mid range poles are the ones that got cucked the hardest by the turnrate nerf, however those are still awesome teamfighting weapons, but imo they need a boost in damage in order to compensate, to make them more rewarding.

[Varadin]

so many crying trash around here , you gotta get good and then u wont cry 

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Somebody remember the guy named Block_Down or something?

[Gravoth_iii]

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Isn't melee fighting already fast enough in crpg?

We already have plenty of agi 2h heroes, running towards you and moving their upper torso like this

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I don't support even more advantages for spastic close combat

Part of the reason why athletics builds are so viable at doing this is because many weapons cannot track them with the current turnrates. You literally have to match their athletics to be able to keep up with your swings/stabs. Youre complaining about something thats also a sideeffect of what the turnrate nerf created.

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People improved themselves to move freely in melee combat, people such as Spamwhore, Rest in Peace, Antonio, Darmaster etc. all do really nice plays and moves while fighting, which means it is doable with the turnrate nerf as well but it is more experience and skill based. Turnrate nerf isn't "godawful" for combat, I actually believe it's a good addition of c-RPG, in native or Mercenaries fights are as spastic as it gets, and literally anyone with an awlpike becomes a god because of retarded stab directions you'll have. Same would happen to c-RPG, 2d stabby weapons would be incredibly powerful (which they already are, especially the awlpike, but it is at least "sorta" skill based) and that is not quite pleasant for gameplay.
As Gurni said, mid range poles are the ones that got cucked the hardest by the turnrate nerf, however those are still awesome teamfighting weapons, but imo they need a boost in damage in order to compensate, to make them more rewarding.

Weapons being good isnt good for the gameplay? Players having little drawbacks to perform skillful actions isnt better for gameplay? The most rewarding part of the game isnt really hitting harder, its being able to win because you felt like youve played well. A glance due to turnrates against someone who's slightly faster than you and your stabby simply cant turn fast enough, well it isnt fun.

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Only cunts who abuse the already broken stab mechanics of this turkish made game want this.

Cunts like you, Teeth the I play from my living room while my parents watch me, Darmaster the Italian midget gypsy, Gurnisson the Jew from Norway, etc etc etc.

Nope.

Coming from someone whos only used high damage unbalanced polearms, youve probably never tried anything that takes more practice than simply making a held rightswing.

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Well, while we're at it let's remove the drawing speed nerf for the ranged because it's definitely a restraint. I'd love to shoot 10 arrows in 5 seconds.

Or, maybe those restraints are there for a reason and "look, Native has it" isn't a valid arguement. If I preferred native gameplay, I'd play native.

Ive said it before, i would be fine with archer buffs but id also want a lot of shield buffs.



Blocking down, hardest part in the game still it seems. Why learn to block when you can simply remove gameplay aspects to help you win?

[Vibe]

its very noticeable when you go to native and it just feels as if restraints are gone and you can play normally again.

Pretty much goes for entire cRPG combat, since everything is slower here. People got bodied too hard in native by crazy shit, complained here under the pretense of realism or abuse or whatever and with every patch over time cRPG turned into this slugfest.

[Chasey]

everyone got better and the game got slower, has made for very boring combat. Turn rate nerf and the sweet spot patch have made group fighting very hard and encourage team hits. I get team hit more on average per round then by enemies.

Since every 1 can block everything now every fight turns into a 30 second duel, until another player turns up and you gank or until a cav comes and hits you, or until 1 of you gets hit by ranged. Melee in its current state just isnt very fun on the battle server, which is why i mainly paly more ranged chars.

[Gravoth_iii]

What are your opinions on native ranged compared to cRPG ranged.

I like the idea of a shield based meta. Native archers are not really a thing in competitive afaik. I'd like to see similar damage, but with our reload speed pretty much, if shields would be buffed to a point where everyone would carry one.
I havent campaigned for ranged personally because ive played ranged maybe 3 times outside of throwing, always less than a full days worth. But at the moment i consider them such a small factor in winning its kinda pathetic.

[Gravoth_iii]

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I still struggle to understand the insistence on passive shield-play as an effective counter to ranged, either here or Native. Maybe as a deterrent? Where archers might seek easier prey? The whole putting-on-your-running-shoes-when-you-and-your-mate-hear-a-lion scenario where you know you can't outrun the lion but can certainly outrun your mate?

I wish cRPG and Warband had easy 'playback' functionality like the stuff I think Bannerlord teased. Some things in this thread sound abstract to me like something that only happens in theory but not on the server, being able to just 'play' and spectate any random recent round of EU1 from any point of view to test some forum theory would be nice. For example the theory that every 1v1 encounter becomes a 30 second duel on EU1 right now.

IMO melee combat right now is good enough that the better man nearly always wins 1v1, 1vmany is possible, and the melee combat is intuitive. Native let you do some crazy stuff, but I remember the amount of tears it generated back then and on old cRPG. Noone likes being stomped anyway, but people particularly hate it when they're being killed by mechanics that look bad/unfinished/not-working-as-intended.

The game is a lot about positioning, if you have a passive shield to pull out you can move anywhere. Lots of people die simply because of being caught with their pants down in the open after some fighting, thats when you need it. Or when flags spawn and theres only ranged left you simply shield up and force them on the offensive.

The issue with the current combat is how long it can take for a 1v1 to end, and because of that you basically always want to gank (Duels dont usually last that long now because everyone pretty much plays for the highest risk reward in order to finish quickly). New players have no chance because them landing 5 hits in a row to kill someone is just not going to happen, even in clusters the chance of them doing anything worthwhile is so low they'll probably just go ranged instantly to get some satisfaction, even though ranged is too hard for them as well. In native any scrub can pick up a 1h shield combo and land a good lucky hit and get a kill here and there.

People should cry about how good opposing classes are, but should also be aware how good their own is. Back then i would be pissed off at 2h's and powerhouse polearms because i had a spear and it was relatively weak in comparison. But i could also make up for with by playing a very agi based support build that would just stagger everyone. Now im just a powerhouse like everyone else.

[Butan]

People confuse broken stabs and turnrate issues.
The stab was massively nerfed separately from turnrate, a couple years ago. The turnrate nerf was done before that (which also nerfed stabs).

Basically, if the turnrate was partially reverted, stabs would still be unable to drag through, and more skill (target selection) would be injected in the game, without increasing animation speed.



This would be a good thing IMO, even though its not particularly needed... but like the dev team knows, some controlled changes once in a while is good for a game.

[Vibe]

People confuse broken stabs and turnrate issues.

Stabs were never broken in the first place. You might argue "muh realism and immersion" for getting floor stabbed, but those crazy feints actually allow duels to be resolved, without them it's a stalemate for two defensive players. Heck, even native duels can still last forever until somebody decides to do something super risky. An aging game needs crazy, freeform stuff like that, because without it people will hit the limitations of the combat system over years. As others have said, 1v1s are basically not resolved anymore, all about ganks now.

[Jona]

Oh if it's just turns then fuckit.

My argument was really that the current state of melee in the game feels pretty good and doesn't need a change. At least as far as movement goes.

But if people want to turn around faster without introducing any wonky-ass animations/hitboxes, or making combat look utterly retarded then be my guest.

Well you'll be getting plenty of wonky-ass animations if the turnrate is higher. "Just turns" applies to all swings directions, stabs included. As Butan mentioned, stabs were later nerfed separately from the turnrate nerf, but this isn't to say that un-nerfing turnrate wouldn't also buff stabs.

[Vibe]

And surely everyone knows that if you hate 100% block, you just need to master Ras Frenzy's reverse double-chamber.

Fuck I didn't account for Ras Frenzy's advanced combat tricks. Disregard my posts.

[Gravoth_iii]

Timed sideways movements in those situations are better than any shield, and heavy armour makes it very forgiving for any mistakes I may make in dodging. If I wore lighter armour maybe i'd grab a 0 difficulty shield just to cover the head in those moments, but even so standing still with a shield is a terrible idea and I'd still move otherwise bleed health.

What you've described in 1v1 fights is that in reality, the server meta has adapted already. Because duels last so long... players have adapted so that duels dont last so long? I don't see this as a bad thing. I object to the term 'gank' as a negative thing in battles, all situational awareness in all forms is a skill and is rewarded (with 0athletics there is only one map in the rotation that I'm aware of where I'm guaranteed to be caught out alone by the whole enemy team, so I just try to do overheads on incoming lance-cav till I die). The mechanics are good enough that it's possible to win even vs several players, but it's suitably challenging. Team battles should never just be a series of 1v1 duels.

New players have no chance landing 5 hits in a row to kill? Would they really have any advantage if turn-rate was buffed? That's a strange point to raise, although it's relevant if we're purely talking about cRPG vs Native where at the start of a round in Native everyone is wearing cloth or leather at best. Tanky-ass combat is the price we pay for freedom of gear, freedom of builds, and heirloom mechanics.

Pikes and long spears are dominating the Strategus battle meta. Nothing else tips a team-fight as consistently in your favour as having them in your team. I don't cry about how good other classes are all that much, because in my head I still remember fighting against those classes in Native and not a single one of them are as strong here as they were in Native. My class lost some stuff, but it also gained a whole lot in the form of nudging and the ability to choose my own armour/build.

Id rely more on a shield than dodging patterns, though dodging is relatively usefull, just shielding to safety is even safer. Standing still with shields like you said, doesnt work, thats why shieldwalls have always been terrible. But using them as a tool to move around safely and quickly is very reliable.

Yes the meta has adapted, but the issue is that the meta isnt fun that way. It comes down to a lot of spamming like kenda has mentioned, sometimes chambers or gimmicky moves like the unarmed nudge into swings. The traditional duel experience is gone and replaced with a desperation to take down the opponent quickly. There are still moves of course like 360 swings, feints etc, but in general it feels slowed down due to other choices being gone from the mix.

And yes sorry that was a derail into native vs crpg in general, which is a concern to me since crpg hasnt seen new players since forever. But thats a thread for another day.

Pikes, longspears and hoplites have almost always been the meta all the way back since us shogunate just longspeared through anything during the peak of their power. Theyve been nerfed a lot throughout the mod but they still do work just based on the supportive playstyle being so useful. The issue still is just the feeling of lack of control. You'll teamhit a lot because you cant turn fast enough, you cant really come in and support a fast moving fight beacuse they can outmaneuver it so easily. "What are you doing, just hit him!" "I cant, i just keep glancing!" Is a classic, or of youre darmaster youll just teamhit instead.

[Butan]

The traditional duel experience is gone and replaced with a desperation to take down the opponent quickly.

Well, as much as I would like a small buff to turnrate, I think it is good that the overall fighting puts more weight on pack vs pack, rather than a collection of switch duels. I would love to find a sweet point between the two, because I dont want fighting groups to devolve into duels, but I would like that the individual is slightly empowered within said groups.