Dat Auld Alliance. I'm for whatever scots choose. Economically I'm not sure independance from GB is such a great idea. They probably benefit more from it than the english do. But there's centuries old tribalism to take into account as well.
If scots vote for independence closer relations to the EU are almost assured, if only to spite eurosceptic english, and balance out english influence.
They didnt seem to mind when Gordon Brown (a scot) was in power just a few years back xD It all rings hollow as a moral stand against the government when Scotland gets behind all of the things you've just listed the moment it comes from a Scottish accent.depends on how they will share oil, if based on the coast, Scotland will live well 10 years or more. If based on the ratio of the population in Scotland and England, the new national dish will be salad thistle XD
It is Scotland's decision, but i still think they should take into account how 'proud' and independent they'll look when they realise their economy is fucked and beg to rejoin again some time after this vote lol. We're talking about a sparse country without much infrastructure or industry, one of the most obese countries in the world (will they have their own National Healthcare Service?), if their sole long-term plan is 'we have some oil' then good luck lol, i wonder if that will even last my lifetime.
depends on how they will share oil, if based on the coast, Scotland will live well 10 years or more. If based on the ratio of the population in Scotland and England, the new national dish will be salad thistle XD
but they can always rent naval base to Russia and China, or air defense bases to protect against Iraq :P
Not true at all, there is not much Oil and Gas left in the North Sea.I heard that last until 2050, possibly Russian propaganda. In this case, Scotland the best choice for salad lovers.
It makes no sense one bit,an independent Scotland is not a independent Scotland it will just be controlled from Brussels instead of London.Same as Ukranian war for independent from Moscow will result in dependence on Brussels.
If scots vote for independance closer relations to the EU are almost assured, if only to spite eurosceptic english, and balance out english influence.
Just seen this thread! Me being an Englishman living on the border of Scotland (also having lived 8 years in the highlands of Scotland), I can say I very much hope they vote aye! Seriously, it is in the interests of Scotland but not the rest of the UK. But why should Scotland care about that? They have the chance to get up away from the sinking ship that is the UK, being able to democratically choose to rid themselves of the top down London elites who rule this country for the worse is an amazing opportunity. It's a little tough to explain some reasons why Scotland should vote yes to people of different countries. Especially those who have never lived in Scotland or rest of the UK for a long period of time. You might think this is just a very emotional idea, and that people should grow up, but trust me there are things deep down, the wrongs done to Scotland by England that need to be accounted for. One example all the illegal wars they have taken Scotland into, or the fact England uses Scotland as its Nuclear and military base.
I could honestly write and talk for ages about this shit, I know I can't vote and has nothing to do with myself. But there are some of us in the rest of UK who wish Scotland does vote yes, so a brighter more respectful nation can be made, and one I would be happy to move back to and help build :)
Edit: from reading previous comments in this thread, please can I stress you to stop concentrating on the leaders of this campaign like Salmond. Alex Salmond, whether you like or dislike him is just one guy, there are thousands of people in the Yes campaign that make the difference. There are also many highly reputable experts such as the Noble Prize Winner economist Joseph Stiglitz, that are on the Yes side. These poeple who have thought about and worked through the challanges that a independent Scotland wiill face. I sincerely hope the Scots grow some balls and actually vote for hope rather than fear...
Paha your rhetoric sounds UKIP in manor. They will still have the political elite class in Scotland. The majority of MP's there are exactly the same as the rest of the UK. Largely wealth based. So that will change squat. Most of the reasons are nationalist drivel with no founding.
You realise that Scottish MP's voted for those illegal wars? You know, the ones the Scots voted for?
Yes but he will be the leader in the event of a yes vote. The 'guiding hand' as it were and I would find that the most worrying factor if I was Scottish. His shouting politics won't work when he tries to negotiate his way into the EU. There are also many experts on the no side who are very firmly in the camp that its a poor move.
same old Scot rhetoric tbh :P UK works great and fine as long as Labour are in power and Scotland get more benefits than England, They didn't seem to moan when our leader was Scottish, But as soon as Tories are in power its all OMG WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR THEM ENGLAND FORCE US TO DO STUFF!
Obviously if you are a tory supporter and or accept the the UK establishment and like the neo-liberal tripe or austerity, it going to be nigh on impossible to come to any agreement over this hehe.
yes the welfare state that paid people up to 20k+ to do nothing was amazing...... Horrible generalisations? hardly you seem quite happy if the UK govt is Labour but if the rest of the UK votes differently then its a govt Scotland doesn't want. well by that logic every county that voted Tory when last Labour govt was in power can say the same thing that's how democracy works ^^
I don't really care what Scotland vote they are a tiny % of the UK population so its up to them if they want to go it alone but you really think things will be much better than you've had it in the UK?
As for easily getting into Europe maybe you should read up about that a bit more. And compared to UKIP well yes your rhetoric sounds exactly like UKIPs just replacing the word Europe with England :D
lol name me one person you know who was paid 20k+ for doing "nothing"? I only think I like about Labour compared with the Conservatives is at least it has some decent people in it. And yes I do think things wil be better than in the UK if they go independent, but then again I am not a pessimist :P As to Europe, well when you have 1% of the EU population in Scotland, 25% of the EU's Renewable energy source in scotland and 60% of the EU's oil source it seems highly unlikely they will be left out of the EU. Perhaps you must read up on it?
Well I think its actually logical, people who live in the country at the time should have the vote because they live there now not in the past ;) but obviously i can see where you are coming from. Also I think its great the voting age is 16, its crucial the younger generation gets involved in politics, both for their own personal development and to help balance the grey vote.
Who decided that the minimum age is 16? Young people tend to be less reticent to change, which could make the voting in that age group lean towards the Yes (change) and be a small help for those wanting independence.
Propaganda 101: the young are easy to exploit.nevertheless it is they will live in a dat new country,
Whoever did knows his shit
And Fleetfox, your complaining
Who decided that the minimum age is 16? Young people tend to be less reticent to change, which could make the voting in that age group lean towards the Yes (change) and be a small help for those wanting independence.
I'm not a fan of the Tories either, and i spent most of my life living in David Cameron's constituency. But i dont think any UK political party will be in favour of this split, unless BMP suddenly decide that Scottish people arent true British after all and that we're saving the purity of our nation by splitting.
Don't Scotland get £1300 per head more than the rest of England on average in public spending?
lol
Well 15-20 years is a brilliant flow of money into the country, just think what Scotland can do with all that. Transitioning to a zero carbon economy is what they should do with that oil money, as well as putting some money away in a "Rainy Day Fund" like Norway (this is planned btw). I'm sorry but I think all this worry about big business leaving Scotland is just wrong. Why would they, its not like Scotland is floating up into space, things will largely stay the same. If you are concerned with some of the big business threatening to leave you should question influences from the establishment pressuring them to scare Scottish people. I hope you are not watching the BBC, its a terribly biased institution ( this has been seen time and time again, I ain't making shit up), Channel 4 news is better. Not sure what you are getting at with the wars issue. I'm pretty damn sure a lot of Scots didn't vote to join Wars when they voted their Labour MP's in. We can just all thank Blair for that mess and his inspiration of Thatcher.
As to party politics yes it is a very big reason to vote yes. Proportional representation is just a better system than first past the post, simple as. Don't believe me look at Germany. It has many Green seats in its Parliament, something Scotland can strive for. That's one reason. Why should Scotland suffer any Tory government? regardless if they only get 5 years, a lot of damage can be made in 5 years! You need to come up to the North, see how much investment we get compared with London (I know some areas in the South are deprived too). Scotland hardly gets any either. This Island is in a mess with London completely skewing and unbalancing the economy too London. If you can't see that or don't think its bad and that devolved powers regionally are a bad idea, well that would be depressing. Scotland has a chance to decide where all its taxes are spent on. That's a important point.
P.S Am I the only Brit here who hates the Tories? Another reason for me to go up north to the more lefter leaning Social Democratic country Scotland can be if all goes well.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-english-backlash-warning-1-3514735
It was in here somewhere.
Sure with independence they could potentially do more than that, but will it happen? It's hardly a small amount.
If you have any experience in the Oil world you would know that 15-20 years of oil does not mean lots of $, some other BS salmond has brainwashed you all with. If you really think Scotland will ever end up like Norway, you are completely wrong. Considering Oil will be Scotlands main income 15-20 years and then what? that's not enough time to switch just to clean energy.
The main reason i am backing the NO campaign so much is because my sense of traditionalism, i would hate to see 300 years of Histroy go down the pan just because an Obnoxious cunt like Salmond wants to make a name for himself in politics.
Otherwise i would be all for it, 5 million less people to pay for the better.
I hope you are not watching the BBC, its a terribly biased institution
Scotland hardly gets any either. This Island is in a mess with London completely skewing and unbalancing the economy too London. If you can't see that or don't think its bad and that devolved powers regionally are a bad idea, well that would be depressing. Scotland has a chance to decide where all its taxes are spent on. That's a important point.
Well I'm not complaining about that ^^ but lets be honest, do kids become suddenly more mature and politically astute once they hit the age of 18? No of course they don't (on average). So why not let these 16 year olds vote? Its their country, their future they have as much right if not more to decide on what happens to their country no?
If you have any experience in the Oil world you would know that 15-20 years of oil does not mean lots of $, some other BS salmond has brainwashed you all with. If you really think Scotland will ever end up like Norway, you are completely wrong. Considering Oil will be Scotlands main income 15-20 years and then what? that's not enough time to switch just to clean energy.
I always love it when people say this. When you look at the complaints about the BBC it's both sides that claim they are biased towards the other. If anything that tells you that the BBC are doing something right.
Its not just biased, its just generally poor in its journalism as compared with Channel 4. Who is this other side you speak of? Surely you don't mean the minority bashing racist nationalist bigots of this fine nation. I don't think anyone should even give them the courtesy of being thought about. Anyway enough with the put downs man, this isn't about me, but Scotland. ^^
That's not how it goes. Majority decides, rest comply.The thing is, that is one of their main arguments for indepedence:Despite the Scots voting something else, since England sometimes votes Tory, they have a Tory government that they do not like. So why not bring it one step further? Then the ones discontempt with this keep it on.
The thing is, that is one of their main arguments for indepedence:Despite the Scots voting something else, since England sometimes votes Tory, they have a Tory government that they do not like. So why not bring it one step further? Then the ones discontempt with this keep it on.
Or, if what you said was done, Majority of the UK decides, Scots (and the rest of the UK, but since in this case Scots are in the rest) SHOULD comply.
You anger very easily, i was just making a funny lol. Still mad that we ignored your offtopic copy/paste about how the british empire is no longer relevant? Because it wasnt relevant to the thread so we didnt care, i dont mean that in a harsh way it just looked like you'd been waiting a long time for a semi-relevant thread to post that.
Jokes are way better when you explain them amirite? If you're looking for profound insight into the political situation in the UK from a random joke then prepare to be disappointed.
:lol:
Random Leshma rant just proves Cymro is right.
Bitch please. The "we are not a major player anymore QQ" was a subject in the UK back in 1920. By now shitton of generations have lived and ruled there without the major player status and thats why they dont care about it anymore. They stopped giving a crap about it long ago. Im pretty sure if you look back, its even so remarkable that people with such few numbers owned such vast amount of lands for so long in the first place.(click to show/hide)
One thing Scotland should take into account is that they even have the freedom to have this vote, how many other unions would just allow a major member to have a free vote to leave?
But you wouldn't be British if you were able to have realistic approach to situation and not hype your own nation into stratosphere.
our proud British feathers
ITT: Discussion about SCOTLAND and Leshma trying very hard to receive attention.
On topic: I don't see how this can possibly be an economically viable move. Rule of thumb: pooling resources = higher efficiency, better for everyone.
Ignored and fed up, UK regions call for Scottish-style devolution (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/17/us-scotland-independence-regions-insight-idUSKBN0HC0B620140917)
Nice post Basnak, I think everyone should read that if they are interested in the UK. I think regional devolution will be the best thing for this country.Devolution could be a good thing, but it could also have bad consequences. You need some clear rules as to who decides which things, if not you will run into tons of duplicities and disputes over who can do what.
Devolution could be a good thing, but it could also have bad consequences. You need some clear rules as to who decides which things, if not you will run into tons of duplicities and disputes over who can do what.
In Spain, a similar thing happened after Franco died, with the "Comunidades Autónomas" (Autonomous Comunities). First of all some of the divisions were decided somewhat arbitrarily (eg Madrid is alone despite it having always been part of Castile, but hell, it's the government, so let's give it special status), and there are plenty of entities where duplicity of functions happens (eg Diputación and local government, both of those with Autonomous Government, and autonomous government with national). A clear example was with local TV stations. Every CA, most big towns, etc used to have various TV stations, loads of which have gone bankrupt simply because there is no demand for so many shit stations. (eg Canal 9, which was the epitome of crap)
Yet again, this is the UK, where things are generally (at least from what I have seen) done slightly better than in Spain, so maybe this will not be an issue.
Best part was that link Moncho gave earlier of Scottish parliament's refusal to the bid for Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles to have their own individual referendums for:
1. Independence from Scotland
2. Stay with Scotland
3. (If Scotland go independent) to remain in the UK
And we're talking about Islands with not just a geographical distinction from the mainland, but also huge historical and... genetic (if we're going there *shudder*) differences from mainland Scotland. Not to mention potentially stronger claims to the North-Sea Oil.
I've voted 'Wessex regionalists' for years as a joke before (before the hate, i live in David Cameron's constituency, it's a protest vote) but now it's almost seeming viable lol. They want to re-establish King Alfred's dynasty and become their own independent kingdom...
Call me King Cymro of Wales from now.
I've upgraded from being the Rebel and have claimed myself King through all the old claims of heritage and lord sexiness.
Continue plebians
Call me King Cymro of Wales from now.
I've upgraded from being the Rebel and have claimed myself King through all the old claims of heritage and lord sexiness.
Continue plebians
As a scottish Laird, I would vote : FREEEEEDOMMMMM !
New Union Jack
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
I do hope I eat this post, so to speak.
They made a sensible choice.
everyone assumes we would just remove the blue but really we don't have to change the flag at all. So what if Scotland leaves, its been the flag of the UK for a long time we have every right to keep it not to mention all the other countries with Jacks in their flagsWait, what is a Jack according to you?
This is just sad :(.
“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin
I don't you really understand what freedom means.
Day -1 : vote on independance
Day 0 : independance voted
Day 1 : UK declare war on Scotland
Day 2 : Scotland is annexed into UK
Now that would be best leadership.
Show 'em whos boss.
I don't understand your sentence :D.
I don't think you really understand what freedom means.
Can't say enough how ... APT this one is 8-)(click to show/hide)
If it makes anyone feel better apparently the Queen is furious, and David Cameron is due a weekly meeting with her. For those who dont know, she fully has the power to make David Cameron step down if she is seriously pissed off at the way the UK government handled this fiasco. And for those who also dont know, the reason she was not vocal in the run-up to this vote is that it would be in breach of her position to try and influence the outcome of a political referendum like this by expressing her own view, even to save the Union. All we know is that she's not best pleased with the way things have gone in the last few months/weeks - if the union was saved it was Gordon Brown not David Cameron who did it.
Why any self-respecting person would allow themselves to be "grilled" by someone who won the birth lottery and settled into a life of luxury and leisure is beyond me. If he was indeed "grilled" and Cameron had any sense he'd tell her to fuck off and remind her that without public money her lifetime of doing absolutely nothing would've been a lot more arduous.
But that's just me
Why any self-respecting person would allow themselves to be "grilled" by someone who won the birth lottery and settled into a life of luxury and leisure is beyond me. If he was indeed "grilled" and Cameron had any sense he'd tell her to fuck off and remind her that without public money her lifetime of doing absolutely nothing would've been a lot more arduous.
But that's just me
You sure seem eager to try and get a rise out of us xD
'British Empire doesnt exist, you need to learn you arent relevant', not on topic but ok.
'You sure do like your Queen', i havent expressed my opinion on the monarchy but i know David Cameron's stance and as a realist i know he'll step down if she 'encourages' him to do that.
Ultimately i think you're just looking to try and stir up a nationalistic ants-nest (and have been trying for several pages), and failing at every turn. Honestly i dont think i've met a person in the UK who'd care if you burnt the Union Jack infront of them. I think your information about the chest-thumping 'Rule Britannia' type of inhabits in the UK is approximately 200 years out of date.
'You sure do like your Queen', i havent expressed my opinion on the monarchy but i know David Cameron's stance and as a realist i know he'll step down if she 'encourages' him to do that.
:lol:Of course Butan springs up attentively when his fellow
The woman trying to cover the fraud under estimated the camera angle it seems.
Is there any known elements on the scale of such actions?
getting your news from Russia nowdays eh ^^
Doubt there is a significantly larger amount of uneducated 'yes' votes than 'no' votes, actually I find it easier to believe that the 'yes' votes have been more driven by blind romanticism. In fact, if you regard whatever source convinced you that the UK is using Scotland as a financial crutch as a good source, I am not sure if you were on the high-end of the information line. Any source that tells you that Scotland is gonna be better off or even fine is full of shit, because an honest answer is that the future economic situation is highly uncertain, and it is a given that uncertainty doesn't fall well with international finance. In these terrible economic times that will probably land the fresh-faced country into a most unfortunately timed credit slump.(click to show/hide)
Labour has pulled out of the more powers/devo max proposal. And Tory MPs wont support David Cameron's proposal.
It's a shame that the older generation were allowed to vote, with their fucking limited media availability; they were fed the fear(no) campaign through such tedious articles written by sub-par, biased, and vested journalists who couldn't give a fuck about the economic prosperity of a solo nation but more the financial stability of a already failing fucking Union. Using Scotland as a financial crutch.
Doubt there is a significantly larger amount of uneducated 'yes' votes than 'no' votes, actually I find it easier to believe that the 'yes' votes have been more driven by blind romanticism.
In fact, if you regard whatever source convinced you that the UK is using Scotland as a financial crutch as a good source, I am not sure if you were on the high-end of the information line. Any source that tells you that Scotland is gonna be better off or even fine is full of shit, because an honest answer is that the future economic situation is highly uncertain, and it is a given that uncertainty doesn't fall well with international finance.
Were you still drunk on grief when you wrote this? Miliband is still readily supporting more powers for Scotland. The only ones complaining are the back benchers. Tories because they want an English only parliament and labour because decentralising the system would seriously damage labour influence in Westminster due to their reliance on Scottish MPs.
And lowering the voting age to 16 was a blatant grab at votes by the yes campaign. Because if anyone is easy to brainwash with mindless nationalism it's those who barely even know who the PM is. Let alone take into consideration the possible implications of independence.
Additionally, Scotland and England have opposing social and political views. Scotland doesn't want a conservative government, I would urge you to look up how the Scotland votes as a nation and how England votes. A conservative government and their idea of privatising everything (fair enough that's an exaggeration) is a quick fix for money and is not a sustainable plan, ESPECIALLY up here in Scotland, where our own Scottish government have conflicting policies and ideologies. With regards to education/tuition and the NHS, as well as providing a welfare state.
Unlike Aunt Betty and the Pensioner Association who were being told that their pensions will be cut, and that Scotland wont be able to produce fire by the BBC and the Daily Mail- mainstream media (the medium more readily accessible to the elderly) favoured the No vote and if you disagree with that then I don't think it's worth discussing it with you anymore.
Whilst that's true, that's also part of being in a democracy. Scotland has been very well represented in Westminster for decades, particularly under the last labour government. Just because a vote goes against the way a particular part of the nation votes is no reason to throw the toys out of the pram.
Whilst that's true, that's also part of being in a democracy. Scotland has been very well represented in Westminster for decades, particularly under the last labour government. Just because a vote goes against the way a particular part of the nation votes is no reason to throw the toys out of the pram.
Do old people not have access to technology in Scotland? Practically everyone I know in the older generation uses smart phones, tablets ect now and frequently accesses vast amounts of online content. Perhaps it could be that the older generation have their heads screwed on a bit more and actually take the time to think about the issues? Or maybe that's equally as stupid a generalisation as yours :rolleyes:
I know right :P Tony Blair was born and spent a lot of his education in Scotland and Brown is pure Scot but its probably mean ole England oppressing them.
Scotland's GDP is at 99% and is third highest out of the 12 regions within the UK only behind London and South East England. In 2012 Scotland gained a place at the expense of East England. That puts 9 regions GDP below Scotland's, 7 of which happen to be in England.I completely respect any argument for independence other than economic arguments and I definitely agree with there being somewhat of a political rift between Scotland and England. However anyone saying with a straight face that the Scottish economy will definitely be better off after independence is still biased. The difference between the Scottish GDP and the national is still rather marginal, even when taking into account the revenues from North Sea oil and gas. It's hardly like Scotland is being held back by the UK on an economic level. Regardless from that though, going independent will have an effect on so many things, few people can oversee it all and no one can predict what it is going to happen, least of all your average politician or journalist. One thing that is fairly easy to predict is that uncertainty doesn't sit well with financial markets. Combine general uncertainty with the unpredictability of oil and gas prices on which Scotland would rely fairly heavily, and you have a recipe for an investment choke.
Although London raises the most tax it does not account for the rest of England. Out of the 9 regions 3 are surplus while 6 are subsidized putting England as a country into debt.
Those figures are a bit out of date now, but still gives a true reflection of how the north and west of England are subsidized and still shows Scotland as the 4th richest region within the UK, the growth in Scotland has improved since then, although it has stalled now (ostensibly) under the conservative party and it's infamous cuts ala "Torrie cuts".
Additionally, Scotland and England have opposing social and political views. Scotland doesn't want a conservative government, I would urge you to look up how the Scotland votes as a nation and how England votes. A conservative government and their idea of privatising everything (fair enough that's an exaggeration) is a quick fix for money and is not a sustainable plan, ESPECIALLY up here in Scotland, where our own Scottish government have conflicting policies and ideologies. With regards to education/tuition and the NHS, as well as providing a welfare state.
I would love to have time to list all the reasons why I voted Yes, should you wish to hear please ask. I could bore you to death all day. And I will provide sources upon request, I haven't got time to write pages atm.
I completely respect any argument for independence other than economic arguments and I definitely agree with there being somewhat of a political rift between Scotland and England. However anyone saying with a straight face that the Scottish economy will definitely be better off after independence is still biased.
At least the upside for the English is that their current account won't get fucked further by the loss of oil and gas, and the upside for me as a non-UK citizen is that Labour won't lose a big part of their voterbase, so perhaps the UK won't go full Toritard forever now.
No vote narrowly winning the referendum
I asked for opinion, you deny me one. Little mind games you play with Xant are not my thing, think of that as massive waste of time. Prefer being told to fuck off, it's quick and to the point.
The SNP has been accused of "deceiving" voters in September's referendum after analysis suggested an independent Scotland would have r eceived only a fifth of the party's oil revenue estimates.
The Financial Times reported that projections from the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) which take into account plummeting prices put oil revenues at £1.25 billion in 2016/17 - the first year of independence had Scotland voted Yes - instead of the £6.9 billion predicted by the Nationalists during the campaign.
Meanwhile oil giant Shell confirmed it is to sell its share in the Sean gas field in the southern North Sea.