Independent Scotland

[Osiris]

same old Scot rhetoric tbh UK works great and fine as long as Labour are in power and Scotland get more benefits than England, They didn't seem to moan when our leader was Scottish, But as soon as Tories are in power its all OMG WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR THEM ENGLAND FORCE US TO DO STUFF!

[FleetFox]

Paha your rhetoric sounds UKIP in manor. They will still have the political elite class in Scotland. The majority of MP's there are exactly the same as the rest of the UK. Largely wealth based. So that will change squat. Most of the reasons are nationalist drivel with no founding.

You realise that Scottish MP's voted for those illegal wars? You know, the ones the Scots voted for?

Yes but he will be the leader in the event of a yes vote. The 'guiding hand' as it were and I would find that the most worrying factor if I was Scottish. His shouting politics won't work when he tries to negotiate his way into the EU. There are also many experts on the no side who are very firmly in the camp that its a poor move.

Ouch that first part is very condescending, and wow being compared with UKIP, oh my that hurts man. Look I don't have much affinity with a lot of politicians, but thankfully those who are voted in by the Scots are Labour. So being able to break away from a government they never voted for is attractive for sure. And ofc they voted them in, the establishment is strong, and unfortunately not everyone is strong enough to vote against what the rest of your party supports.

From what I have read, Scotland entering the EU will be quite easy as they already pass all the requirements. I think perhaps you underestimate Salmond, he is a smart guy and he knows and wants to accept people from the No side to help build a brighter Scotland. Its great positive, and very exciting, even for a non scot on the other side of the border. Obviously if you are a tory supporter and or accept the the UK establishment and like the neo-liberal tripe or austerity, it going to be nigh on impossible to come to any agreement over this hehe.

[FleetFox]

same old Scot rhetoric tbh UK works great and fine as long as Labour are in power and Scotland get more benefits than England, They didn't seem to moan when our leader was Scottish, But as soon as Tories are in power its all OMG WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR THEM ENGLAND FORCE US TO DO STUFF!

Horrible generalisations, but then again you are a Tory as well no? And I assume the largest wealth inequality in Europe is working great for you is it? The privatisation of the NHS, the degradation of the building blocks which make this island great (welfare State) as all great as well? And lets be honest labour isn't actually that different from the Tory party now. Both are Centre right, its how modern politics works, sad I know. I'm sorry I can't take your last comment seriously.

[lombardsoup]

Any bets on the final margins?  Not in forum poll, in the actual referendum

Also, learn to edit your damn posts instead of double posting

[Osiris]

yes the welfare state that paid people up to 20k+ to do nothing was amazing...... Horrible generalisations? hardly you seem quite happy if the UK govt is Labour but if the rest of the UK votes differently then its a govt Scotland doesn't want. well by that logic every county that voted Tory when last Labour govt was in power can say the same thing that's how democracy works ^^ 


I don't really care what Scotland vote they are a tiny % of the UK population so its up to them if they want to go it alone but you really think things will be much better than you've had it in the UK?


As for easily getting into Europe maybe you should read up about that a bit more. And compared to UKIP well yes your rhetoric sounds exactly like UKIPs just replacing the word Europe with England

Obviously if you are a tory supporter and or accept the the UK establishment and like the neo-liberal tripe or austerity, it going to be nigh on impossible to come to any agreement over this hehe.

so basically agree with you that Tories suck and England = bad or you will insult me ^^

[FleetFox]

yes the welfare state that paid people up to 20k+ to do nothing was amazing...... Horrible generalisations? hardly you seem quite happy if the UK govt is Labour but if the rest of the UK votes differently then its a govt Scotland doesn't want. well by that logic every county that voted Tory when last Labour govt was in power can say the same thing that's how democracy works ^^ 


I don't really care what Scotland vote they are a tiny % of the UK population so its up to them if they want to go it alone but you really think things will be much better than you've had it in the UK?


As for easily getting into Europe maybe you should read up about that a bit more. And compared to UKIP well yes your rhetoric sounds exactly like UKIPs just replacing the word Europe with England

lol name me one person you know who was paid 20k+ for doing "nothing"? I only think I like about Labour compared with the Conservatives is at least it has some decent people in it. And yes I do think things wil be better than in the UK if they go independent, but then again I am not a pessimist As to Europe, well when you have 1% of the EU population in Scotland, 25% of the EU's Renewable energy source in scotland and 60% of the EU's oil source it seems highly unlikely they will be left out of the EU. Perhaps you must read up on it?

[Overdriven]

lol name me one person you know who was paid 20k+ for doing "nothing"? I only think I like about Labour compared with the Conservatives is at least it has some decent people in it. And yes I do think things wil be better than in the UK if they go independent, but then again I am not a pessimist As to Europe, well when you have 1% of the EU population in Scotland, 25% of the EU's Renewable energy source in scotland and 60% of the EU's oil source it seems highly unlikely they will be left out of the EU. Perhaps you must read up on it?

I know several in my old village. One guy faked a back problem for years (he would dig in his garden) and said he couldn't work because of it. Walked around with a cane and everything and had a shit ton of money forked out to him. Hardly worked a day in his life.

My wife also works in Whitehawk in a volunteer centre. It's one of the most deprived areas of the UK. Most of the women there readily admit they make their kids fake ADD and actually try and drink + smoke during pregnancy to give their kids disabilities so they get far more child benefit support. And most of them neglect their kids and walk around with nice shiny iphones ect. She also worked at a food bank, you know, the places that people bring up when they bemoan our Government for causing a divide and she couldn't stand to work there any longer because of the people. They had all their shiny new toys, often pets, but could not 'afford' to feed their kids.

She used to think the welfare system was great until she worked with those who use it most and she was ignored when she needed it most. It took about 6 months for her to go from supporting it to despising the system.

It's the plague of the welfare system at it's best and is one of the major things that needs fixing in this country. It usually ends up neglecting those who need it most and helping those who are looking for an easy ride.

Conservatives also have some decent people. But just look at the mess that labour has created every time they've been in power over the last 50 years or so and it makes you want to think twice.

Scotland will be left out of the EU simply because there will be a number of member states that will fight hard against it. Forget what they 'bring' to the EU. That's fluffy stuff that no one cares about in a bitter political game. And to many member states there will be far more at stake if they let Scotland join than oil supplies ect. Scotland will be bullied out of it and left hanging. Combine that with an inevitably weak currency, and the billions of pounds that have already left the Scottish economy due to the uncertainty of independence and they will be in a sticky place in a few years if this goes ahead.

[FleetFox]

Fair points mate, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out if independence happens. As to those examples, well I didn't say the current system or the one under labour was perfect I'm sure you will agree there will always be some who will find loop holes but then that's more a question of social responsibility. I'll be brutally honest though I doubt a Tory government would have managed any better than Labour in those failings ^^ but please carry on keeping this on track with Scotland, enough about England.

[Osiris]

Scotland would need every member of the EU to accept Scotland's application which is not guaranteed because Spain really really doesn't want it to happen  Im quite happy for Scots to vote yes or no same as If we have a referendum on leaving the EU. Personally i think the debates and discussions about Scotland have been incredibly poor and childish basically just two sides screaming at and insulting each other

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/jan/11/would-an-independent-scotland-join-the-euro
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/195ffc62-343b-11e4-8832-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DQF2FGY1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29184664

I put some bits in the spoilers

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 Recognition as a new country, particularly by Spain
Once it has been recognised by London, Scotland will need the same from all the other member states before it can apply (or reapply) to join the EU. José Manuel Barroso, Mr Juncker’s predecessor, said this year that it would be “very difficult, if not impossible” to secure a green light from all 28.

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All countries in the EU must be committed to joining the single currency. Denmark and Britain won “opt-outs” that are no longer available to new applicants. Olli Rehn, the EU’s former economy commissioner, has been categorical that keeping the pound would be incompatible with joining the EU.
“As to the question whether ‘sterlingisation’ [keeping the pound without the oversight of the Bank of England] were compatible with EU membership, the answer is that this would simply not be possible, since that would obviously imply a situation where the candidate country concerned would not have a monetary authority of its own and thus no necessary instruments of the economic and monetary union,” he wrote in a letter to Danny Alexander, chief secretary to the Treasury, this month.

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3) Managing a transition
Increasing speculation centres on a potential “transitional agreement” that would grant Scots special rights akin to membership while their application for readmission was going through the system. People involved in the case of Greenland – which left the European Economic Community in 1985 – say the bureaucracy of an exit is gruelling and would be best avoided if Scotland is going to return to the bloc after a brief period outside.
Lawyers say it would be logical for the EU to agree to a temporary deal so Scots would remain locked into EU standards for, say, agriculture and labour while their reapplication is considered. The status of Scotland’s fisheries would be particularly sensitive as EU quotas are won in hard-fought negotiations where national population is important. An independent Scotland would lose leverage.

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4) Forget that rebate
In some respects, Scotland would be able to carry on in the EU much as it did as part of the UK, still sending six lawmakers to the European parliament.
Lord Kerr, however, said Scotland would almost certainly not be able to continue to enjoy Britain’s rebate from budget contributions that Margaret Thatcher, then prime minister, won in 1984.
“Existing member states, many much poorer in per capita terms than Scotland, would not agree to pay more to let the Scots pay less.”

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The Spanish Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy, has taken that line as has the President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy and the President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso.

In a letter to a House of Lords committee, Mr Barroso said: "A new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory."

In a BBC interview, Mr Barroso went further, suggesting that it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for an independent Scotland to secure membership.

Even a no vote works great for Scotland if they get devo max out of it Either way after this vote things will never be the same (and labour will be pissed because they lose 40 odd MPs)

[FleetFox]

Thanks for the links, although I am not a big fan of FT As I said we will have to wait and see... I'd advise not reading into to much of what Barrosso said.

As to devo max, well no one has actually promised anything as of yet. The big politicians are saying yes we will give you more powers, like Gordon Brown who is promising what pretty much Scotland has already but the scots would be foolish to believe what a politician says ha.

[Osiris]

I'm not really a fan of the EU to be honest but they were the first links up

What i don't like is the fact that everyone living in Scotland has a vote but Scots living in England don't apparently  :?Some lady on the radio was ranting that her daughter who is a Scot and lived in Scotland most of her life but now lives in England now doesn't get a say but her neighbours who are Spanish and dutch do. Also not a fan of giving school kids a vote thats just strange

[FleetFox]

Well I think its actually logical, people who live in the country at the time should have the vote because they live there now not in the past ;) but obviously i can see where you are coming from. Also I think its great the voting age is 16, its crucial the younger generation gets involved in politics, both for their own personal development and to help balance the grey vote.

[lombardsoup]

Well I think its actually logical, people who live in the country at the time should have the vote because they live there now not in the past ;) but obviously i can see where you are coming from. Also I think its great the voting age is 16, its crucial the younger generation gets involved in politics, both for their own personal development and to help balance the grey vote.

Not so sure if that's a great idea, there's research claiming that human brain development isn't complete until early-mid 20's.  At least raise voting age to 18

[Moncho]

Who decided that the minimum age is 16? Young people tend to be less reticent to change, which could make the voting in that age group lean towards the Yes (change) and be a small help for those wanting independence.

[lombardsoup]

Who decided that the minimum age is 16? Young people tend to be less reticent to change, which could make the voting in that age group lean towards the Yes (change) and be a small help for those wanting independence.

Propaganda 101: the young are easy to exploit.

Whoever did knows his shit