cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 04:35:37 am

Title: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 04:35:37 am
OVERALL BALANCE POLL : Q1 2014  *** VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED ***


Thought it would be interesting to see what the population thought at this point about the overall balance between weapon classes.
I think things are largely balanced at this point, but there's always room for improvement. 

A poll like this which combines so many different opinions helps avoid bias this way or that from individuals.

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If I had to list any balance tweaks that I would suggest they would be these though:
(click to show/hide)

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Just some thoughts. 
Main focus of this is the poll....as mentioned, anyone's individual thoughts are biased even if they try not to be.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Sari on February 03, 2014, 04:54:17 am
Which xbows are you asking to be 2 shots per minute? Most rounds end in least 1 to 1 1/2 minutes. My MW hunting xbow takes 10 seconds to reload(on horseback with 62 wpf).

So the "notch mode" for bows, can you activate it or is it just there?
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Jona on February 03, 2014, 04:57:39 am
He was saying that in real life that is how slow crossbows could be, not saying that in-game should be that slow.


From another thread that mentioned the unbalanced polearm issue:

Elegant poleaxe seems pretty balanced to me.
It is fairly long and held pretty high up and has metal at the bottom to even the weight:
(click to show/hide)

Thanks for pointing this out... the leverage you get from holding a polearm higher up allow you far more control over the otherwise heavy weapon. Also, the axe blade on polearms that were used for combat is not nearly as unwieldy as you might expect. These weapons were designed for the battlefield, not for chopping wood. The blades on the axe were far thinner than anything you would use to chop wood with. The 1 handed hatchet would more likely be unbalanced than any poleaxe. It is a shame, however, than the models for the long axe, long war axe, and great axe tend to look more like oversized wood-chopping axes and yes, based upon the model should perhaps all be unbalanced, super slow, and also have at least 10 more damage each. But due to balance and fun coming before reality, it is not so.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 06:36:14 am
Which xbows are you asking to be 2 shots per minute? Most rounds end in least 1 to 1 1/2 minutes. My MW hunting xbow takes 10 seconds to reload(on horseback with 62 wpf).

So the "notch mode" for bows, can you activate it or is it just there?

If you read more carefully I mention that 2 shots per min would be terrible for gameplay, and that I do not suggest that.

Notched mode would be activated.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 06:39:25 am
I hear you Jona about the blades, but the wooden shafts to be viable in combat were still rather thick.  I played lacrosse growing up and I am old enough that when I first started, some people still used wooden shafts instead of the titanium and other composite metals that replaced them.  They were heavy, and only around 5-6 ft long....if I extrapolate that to even longer and put a metal head on it, there is a lot of inertia there, definitely more than a lighter more balanced weapon like most swords, and yet the speed/maneuverability of the polearms seems just as high.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Shaksie on February 03, 2014, 06:45:46 am
Agree on all counts apart from unbalanced; I think they are already too penalized.
It's pretty much impossible to feint well with them (yes, I can feint with them but not quickly enough for them to be very hard to block, they just surprise people for the first few times) and pretty well every time I try to feint but it doesn't work, I will appear to feint but will actually swing.
I think there should be grades of unbalance, ranging from impossible to stop your swing once it starts to being able to stop it until almost the very end. Also, I think there needs to be some incentive to use them. Generally they are horrid for dueling which is kind of silly, I would personally love to use an unbalanced looking weapon but none of them work. Maybe they could give some additional slow when people are hit by them or if they block them, so that they are better for kicking/nudging or something like that.
In M:BG I very much think combat should be more bash (aka nudge) based which would allow large weapons to be usable in 1v1 situations. At the moment they are only effective if you sneak up on people or are supporting/supported by others. Or unless you are fighting against someone that sucks, but I don't think that's very reasonable for the weapon to be good vs crap people.
Regardless, the 2nd part MUST be fixed.

Also, I may well be wrong but I would have thought a sword would be significantly more heavy than an axe in real life. Seeing that the sword is completely metal and the metal not being very good at the time, you couldn't make them very thin so there would be quite a lot. Compare this to an axe which has a relatively very small piece of metal atop a substantially lighter wood handle, and I would've thought the axe would be more powerful, lighter (thus maybe faster?) but less wieldy than a sword
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Duster on February 03, 2014, 07:15:02 am
Please add a " I think the game is fine as it is" option, because I really don't have a problem with any one class. It only starts to get frustrating with things like ranged or cav in groups.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 07:25:45 am
Please add a " I think the game is fine as it is" option...

Added.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Dionysus on February 03, 2014, 07:48:16 am
This isn't really a matter of game balance as it is just an oversight, but the throwing lance is a really melee-capable weapon that utilizes some ghost reach. The war spear also has some slight ghost reach, but I think that can be solved with just a simple re-measurement of the model. The throwing lance, however, does not seem like it is properly represented by the model, and I have a feeling it's because of the way it is held. I don't know enough about the technicalities of modeling and hit detection, so maybe I'm just spewing a bunch of bullshit.

Here is a very accurate and scientific model of the shenanigans I'm talking about.

(click to show/hide)

Notice the red line. That is the danger zone (I put it in red because it looks scarier that way).
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Jona on February 03, 2014, 07:50:57 am
Eli, the poleaxes are at most 142 cm long... 6ft converts to about 183 cm. And not only that, but a good 5-6 inches on either end are really skinny spikes. I am sure the wood is solid and pretty hefty, but it isn't exactly that long or wide.

Also comparing the weight of poleaxes to some of the larger 2handers shows that if anything more 2handers need to be unbalanced, but shouldn't be for gameplay reasons. The amount of leverage you get from holding it the polearm way compared to the 2hand way is incredibly useful.


This isn't really a matter of game balance as it is just an oversight, but the throwing lance is a really melee-capable weapon that utilizes some ghost reach. The war spear also has some slight ghost reach, but I think that can be solved with just a simple re-measurement of the model. The throwing lance, however, does not seem like it is properly represented by the model, and I have a feeling it's because of the way it is held. I don't know enough about the technicalities of modeling and hit detection, so maybe I'm just spewing a bunch of bullshit.


Personally I am not sure if the war spear has ghost reach or not, simply because the model is so skinny, long, and the speed is quite high. I just can't tell where it is. Does it have ghost reach? Maybe... but in order for me to tell I would first need to have an actual idea of where the weapon model ended in the first place! I tend to fight war spear users like I fight flamberge users... just always assume you are within range, and always block.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Piok on February 03, 2014, 10:25:40 am
Stab attack deserves own topic in Poll :idea:
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Macropus on February 03, 2014, 10:37:05 am
Lol, so many people vote for throwing is OP?
Ah, right. NA.

(But seriously, I really hope throwing will become viable on strat, would be epic).
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: bagge on February 03, 2014, 10:43:48 am
Ranged in general is op. Especially against high armor.. 8 shots with the second highest damage dealing bow is NOT enough.

Save the melee, save the world
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Strudog on February 03, 2014, 11:02:04 am
Lol, so many people vote for throwing is OP?
Ah, right. NA.

(But seriously, I really hope throwing will become viable on strat, would be epic).

Throwing is viable on strat, and in fact its a lot of fun, its just factions dont take throwing weapons, i THINK Mercs were the only ones to take throwing stuff EU side.

Mendro and Godwin had a lot of fun
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: En_Dotter on February 03, 2014, 11:04:05 am
I voted randomly cus i could do 12/15 votes (or something).

Anyway, stabs are pretty much retarded in the game and that is the most annoying thing in the game.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Teeth on February 03, 2014, 11:05:39 am
Crossbow
Crossbow offers top notch ranged capabilities combined with top notch melee capabilities. Due to the way crossbow plays they rarely fight large groups of people and in those small 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 fights, having an 8 athlethics 1h build with a blunt/pierce weapon or stab sword does not leave you at a disadvantage at all against the pure melee. Their accuracy is also ridiculous to the point that I have seen multiple crossbowmen wearing over 20(!) weight body armours and still pulling of longe range kills and topping the boards. It is the ultimate battle class, capable of doing everything extremely well, which is utter horseshit.

1h cav
If there is one class that makes my jaw drop repeatedly from how much hp I lose per hit it is 1h cav. Bumpslashes supposedly do 50% damage, yet I have seen bumpslashes take over 50% of my hp regularly, while most of those horseslashers have low PS like 6. A MW Lance when used on horseback has 22.5p damage due to the 1 handed damage penalty. 36 cut shits all over that and easily makes up for the higher risk, especially if used on a heavy horse. Mechanics are very borky as well, swings that should glance or not hit at all deal a ton of damage and bumpslashing is easy as pie. I am not even sure if the halved damage for bumpslashes is implemented correctly, if it is the raw damage they do is out of the park. With the stab changes the 1h horseback stab is actually potent weapon, being incredibly fast and not even that much shorter than a lance stab. Instead of dealing 22.5p damage like a MW Lance though, it deals 30p with a Long Espada.

Stabs
Stabs are imba as hell, which means that strong stab weapons like awlpikes, partisans and what not are probably the most OP thing to play in the game right now. It is utterly cringeworthy seeing anyone play that or playing it yourself. Dealing 32-35 pierce at extremely long reaches at insane speed is just incredibly stupid right now. Stabs should be fixed asap, if it is not possible yet, then revert the mechanics to the old ones until the new stabs can be tweaked. I can't be arsed to play with that bullshit.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: _schizo321437 on February 03, 2014, 11:16:40 am
Watching SB 2014 made me realize.....it's pre-determined...
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Teeth on February 03, 2014, 11:23:49 am
As for the poll, I think it is too broad to properly reflect the game and draw any meaningful conclusions. There are so many subclasses in between the wpf archetypes that this poll misses. A term like polearm encompasses so many different things it is hard to vote polearms are overpowered when you mean a specific set of weapons.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: bagge on February 03, 2014, 11:28:47 am
Throwing is viable on strat, and in fact its a lot of fun, its just factions dont take throwing weapons, i THINK Mercs were the only ones to take throwing stuff EU side.

Mendro and Godwin had a lot of fun

Greys did, Druzhina did, Shu Han did and Nords did.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Prpavi on February 03, 2014, 11:31:24 am
All stabs, Xbows, Arab cav sword for starters
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on February 03, 2014, 11:52:15 am
Leave the crossbows be, will ya?

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Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 12:16:20 pm

2h is overpowered
Polearms are overpowered
1h is overpowered
Cavalry is overpowered
Xbow is overpowered
Archery is overpowered
Throwing is overpowered
 
There.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Mlekce on February 03, 2014, 12:25:30 pm
I hate those 2h unbalanced weapons like war cleaver and bar mace. Second one knock down every time,and ur dead from second hit.
Also hate battle fork,that shit do insane dmg when u get hit overhead.

Anyway i am fine with game as it is.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 12:28:49 pm
Just looked at the poll. I cant believe people still deem 1H most overpowered. Learn to block down ffs.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: bagge on February 03, 2014, 01:51:01 pm
Just looked at the poll. I cant believe people still deem 1H most overpowered. Learn to block down ffs.

Anything that beats you is OP, because you are the best player in the world. This is the philosphy of cRPG players
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Corsair831 on February 03, 2014, 02:30:23 pm
it's not about polearm / 1h / 2h / archer etc being overpowered

it's about stabs being overpowered (for all classes)

nerf stabs 2014

edit: or you could give us native stab mechanics back, at least they sort of worked :/
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Osakasa on February 03, 2014, 02:52:51 pm
HA and HX are missing in your poll
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Thomek on February 03, 2014, 03:09:39 pm
Crossbow
Crossbow offers top notch ranged capabilities combined with top notch melee capabilities. Due to the way crossbow plays they rarely fight large groups of people and in those small 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 fights, having an 8 athlethics 1h build with a blunt/pierce weapon or stab sword does not leave you at a disadvantage at all against the pure melee. Their accuracy is also ridiculous to the point that I have seen multiple crossbowmen wearing over 20(!) weight body armours and still pulling of longe range kills and topping the boards. It is the ultimate battle class, capable of doing everything extremely well, which is utter horseshit.

1h cav
If there is one class that makes my jaw drop repeatedly from how much hp I lose per hit it is 1h cav. Bumpslashes supposedly do 50% damage, yet I have seen bumpslashes take over 50% of my hp regularly, while most of those horseslashers have low PS like 6. A MW Lance when used on horseback has 22.5p damage due to the 1 handed damage penalty. 36 cut shits all over that and easily makes up for the higher risk, especially if used on a heavy horse. Mechanics are very borky as well, swings that should glance or not hit at all deal a ton of damage and bumpslashing is easy as pie. I am not even sure if the halved damage for bumpslashes is implemented correctly, if it is the raw damage they do is out of the park. With the stab changes the 1h horseback stab is actually potent weapon, being incredibly fast and not even that much shorter than a lance stab. Instead of dealing 22.5p damage like a MW Lance though, it deals 30p with a Long Espada.

Stabs
Stabs are imba as hell, which means that strong stab weapons like awlpikes, partisans and what not are probably the most OP thing to play in the game right now. It is utterly cringeworthy seeing anyone play that or playing it yourself. Dealing 32-35 pierce at extremely long reaches at insane speed is just incredibly stupid right now. Stabs should be fixed asap, if it is not possible yet, then revert the mechanics to the old ones until the new stabs can be tweaked. I can't be arsed to play with that bullshit.

This!

Thing about stabs is that they are also team friendly, thus way more applicable in many more situations. This alone should warrant them being weaker. Also I don't believe you can accelerate your weapon to the speeds achievable in swings. This is a good example of something which are only applicable in battles, and cannot be measured in duels.

About the 1h cav, and cav in general, is that it is way, way easier to land head-hits for 2x? damage.. Pure stats are not that good, but because it's so easy to land head-hits, it doesn't take much skill to multiply that, multiplied with speed bonus..  The very longest 1handers could easily do with some nerfs.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Tydeus on February 03, 2014, 03:23:12 pm
Also I don't believe you can accelerate your weapon to the speeds achievable in swings.
Thrusts can not only hit players faster(earlier in the animation), because of speed bonus mechanics, you can easily obtain double or even triple the speed bonus of a swing.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Phew on February 03, 2014, 03:24:38 pm
How about:
-The reward system is underpowered
-The game modes are underpowered

Endless nerf/buff cycles for the various classes won't do anything to address the fact that the multiplier+valour system is idiotic, and at least on NA, your game mode choices are:
1. Get shot/trampled/kited to death on Battle, then watch grass grow until the round ends
2. Mindlessly bash bots on DTV
3. Sit alone on an empty siege server
4. Wear plate that isn't yours and kill other people in plate in Strat

Conquest should be fixed and replace Battle and Siege. Strat should just be a separate game that isn't tied to your cRPG character in any way. And DTV should be a place for people <lvl 31 to learn+level, not a place to farm lvl 36 faster than any other game mode despite it being horribly boring.

Poor balance between classes isn't what's killing crpg, it's a poor reward system coupled with poor game modes.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 03, 2014, 03:32:00 pm
Everything but the weapons i use are op. Buff throwing daggers!
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: _GTX_ on February 03, 2014, 03:39:24 pm
I hate those 2h unbalanced weapons like war cleaver and bar mace. Second one knock down every time,and ur dead from second hit.
Also hate battle fork,that shit do insane dmg when u get hit overhead.

Anyway i am fine with game as it is.
Some goes for the 1h knockdown, that is just as intense.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: pingpong on February 03, 2014, 03:40:56 pm

Dat reticule size with that amount of heavy armor on is just silly!

Up the STR requirements, arbalest 18, hvy xbow 15 and so on, nerf accuracy and make armor affect xbows more, they should run around with light armor like rest of the rangeds, not like 60+ body armor and still headshot from the other end of the map.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: dreadnok on February 03, 2014, 04:06:37 pm
You didn't put shields up I noticed, they are more of a liability than anything else,  the benefits for raising shield are weird, you should get more arrow protection. Getting shot thru and around in impossible ways is weird, the weight of the shield should be dropped too when you raise the skill. If guys in plate jack up there athletics and can jump around like ninjas I don't see this being to out of hand. 1h without a shield is pretty damn good, the only problem on most 1h is range and that's the way it should be
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: musketer on February 03, 2014, 04:28:07 pm
The penaltie, (aim, damage, etc...), in ranged wearing heavy armor should be really high, I mean, really high.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Phew on February 03, 2014, 04:31:32 pm
The penaltie, (aim, damage, etc...), in ranged wearing heavy armor should be really high, I mean, really high.

Maybe if armor actually did something. Every other attack is a stab now, and even the fattest plate crutch dies in 3 stabs from a +3 awlpike. I don't ever see these mythical plate xbowers; the class doesn't really exist because no xbower wants to double their upkeep and give up their mobility so they can survive one more bodkin.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 04:38:44 pm
Also, I may well be wrong but I would have thought a sword would be significantly more heavy than an axe in real life. Seeing that the sword is completely metal and the metal not being very good at the time, you couldn't make them very thin so there would be quite a lot. Compare this to an axe which has a relatively very small piece of metal atop a substantially lighter wood handle, and I would've thought the axe would be more powerful, lighter (thus maybe faster?) but less wieldy than a sword

Nope.  Swords, contrary to what some think are actually pretty light weapons and well balanced for the user.  They were not common weapons (not as common as they are in crpg) because they were expensive and hard to make.  The blades are actually very thin....don't think Cloud's sword from Final Fantasy, think a good kitchen knife but bigger.  I own a fully battle ready, high carbon steele, full tang arming sword, and have held the 2h versions (basically the real life comparison of a longsword, two handed sword, etc).  Only the great swords is where things got weighty because of the length, but longsword, bastard swords, two handed sword, claymore, etc were rather wieldy. 

It's actually the wood of a 2h axe or polearm that creates the weight.  It's a lot more mass.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 04:41:17 pm
Also comparing the weight of poleaxes to some of the larger 2handers shows that if anything more 2handers need to be unbalanced, but shouldn't be for gameplay reasons. The amount of leverage you get from holding it the polearm way compared to the 2hand way is incredibly useful.

This I agree with.  The longer 2h swords (great swords really and flamberge) should technically be wielded in pole mode most of the time, and if you watch reenactments they usually are.  The shorter 2h swords like the Sword of War on down to the bastard swords were used with 2h on the handle as they are in game.

Perhaps those longer ones should default to pole mode, but can be used in 2h mode with an unbalanced tag when in that mode, or with a slower speed?

Anyhow funny thing about this convo Jona is that people do not complain about the longer 2h we are talking about (anymore), they complain about the light class such as HBS/LS and those operate in game just about as I would expect them to based on actually having wielded such weapons.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 04:44:44 pm
Stab attack deserves own topic in Poll :idea:

Added my friend.
Unfortunately most have already voted :(
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Moncho on February 03, 2014, 04:46:12 pm
Can't you reset the poll so that we can vote again?
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Miwiw on February 03, 2014, 04:50:56 pm
Xbows have always been too strong.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 04:53:48 pm

PER REQUESTS I AM WIPING POLL AND ADDING IT AGAIN WITH MORE OPTIONS ...
...Please vote again...



There are 23 poll choices, you can pick 12.
You can also change your votes.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 05:28:24 pm
Something tells me a lot of people are gonna vote that stabs are OP :)
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Jack1 on February 03, 2014, 05:40:58 pm
In my opinion the infantry vs infantry portion of the mod is more balanced than it ever has been. The only things that make this game unbalanced are the people who no longer can use an OP melee class to crutch on and are forced to do something like ranged or horse ranged to do well.

In my opinion the only things that are OP is throwing(close ranged accuracy while moving) and crossbows(not enough requirement heavy an allows players to melee to easily). Some improvements can be made to cav so it is a little less powerful when using multi directional weapons other than the hafted blade. Most multi directional horseback epin(other than hafted blade) seem to do insane amounts of damage with minimal power strike builds.

Edit: in my opinion stabs are not OP. I use an English bill and demolish people by two shot to with the overhead. There are many other weapons that can counter stabs while sitting a mile away.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Tydeus on February 03, 2014, 05:47:54 pm
Oddly enough, this new poll's initial results actually reflect my feelings(Yes, that includes thrusts).
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on February 03, 2014, 06:00:08 pm
Nerf cav
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: 722_ on February 03, 2014, 06:00:54 pm
knockdown should be an option

Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Gmnotutoo on February 03, 2014, 06:01:24 pm
Nerf cav

buff katana & wakizashi
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Grumbs on February 03, 2014, 06:10:44 pm
Oddly enough, this new poll's initial results actually reflect my feelings(Yes, that includes thrusts).

What if you nerfed speed bonus for everyone with thrusts, but found a way to keep 1/2 directional poles decent?

Poles should be stabbing masters when 2/1 directional. Otherwise stabs could do with a nerf across the board.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 06:11:50 pm
Oddly enough, this new poll's initial results actually reflect my feelings(Yes, that includes thrusts).

Tydeus, did you hack my poll and add the Fire magic option?

If not, I'm scared because I didn't add that :(
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 03, 2014, 06:13:21 pm
In all honesty, no one class is overpowered on it's own (IMO).  I think team balance is the main problem, but overall I think balance is fine and has been fine for the last 2+ years. 

Some equipment has been stronger over the years, some classes have been better or worse than they are now, but at no point in the last 2.5'ish years has any class been completely overpowered where nothing can counter it.  Teamwork and tactics have always been able to overcome any obstacle.  Unless the team balance system puts 90% of ranged and 100% of horse ranged on one team and the map is not a counter-strike type map, then you're probably fucked and should suicide rush to get the map over with.   :wink:

People are too quick to blame the enemy for their death, instead of taking responsibility for their actions.  It's easier on your ego if you can blame a mechanic, or another class being the problem when you die.  Sure things could always be better, but the problem with balance is that it can easily be overdone.  You hit something with a nerf, and then something else rises up out of the ashes and becomes stronger.  Oops, instead of fixing the original nerf, you better nerf the new thing that became strong.   :lol:

In conclusion:  "Nerf paper, scissors are fine, sincerely, rock."  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Macbeth3 on February 03, 2014, 06:17:16 pm
To bad only a vocal Minority comes to the forums. Myself I find things rather balanced if you'd compare it to 3 years ago.

Then again, everyone on here is entitled to their own opinions. Most people will come here and select their class as up and their counters are op.
Do i blame these people? No. It's human nature. If people would nerf my preferred playstyle to hell, I would still play it because I've been doing so for over 20 gens. No nerf or buff is going to make me switch. Decrease my damage by 30%, I would not care. I would still be having fun and do what I do best... Wich is beeing a cat!

(Buff cat plz)
*Meow* :3

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Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Grumbs on February 03, 2014, 06:18:13 pm
^ xbow with shield and 1 hand.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Prpavi on February 03, 2014, 06:23:56 pm
To bad only a vocal Minority comes to the forums. Myself I find things rather balanced if you'd compare it to 3 years ago.



you use a xbow and only stab with a 1h sword , look at the results top of the page and there is your answer why you think things are "rather balanced"  :wink:
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Macbeth3 on February 03, 2014, 06:28:04 pm
you use a xbow and only stab with a 1h sword , look at the results top of the page and there is your answer why you think things are "rather balanced"  :wink:
And You're a Horse-Archer :3
Does my class have anything to do with the statement that I provided? That 3 years ago, it was tons worse?
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Grumbs on February 03, 2014, 06:34:45 pm
The devs have always had a strange hard on for xbows. It took them how long to think about not letting them use a 2 hander too? To add a bit of weight?

Then they buff the crap out of 1 handers to compensate and make a load of great 0 slot 1 handers and we are back at square one. Nothing has really changed
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Strudog on February 03, 2014, 06:38:18 pm
I would like to see HA go back to the way it was, before it got buffed, was much more rewarding skilful back then
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Phew on February 03, 2014, 07:00:38 pm
cRPG has fallen into the rut that nearly all online games fall into where the endless shouting about balance drowns out what really matters, which is making sure the game is fun. If ranged gets nerfed, then everyone complaining about ranged will just get replaced by people complaining about the new wave of agility polearmers or whatever else is free to run around without fear of being killed by projectiles. The overall level of complaints will always be constant, all the devs can do is shift to focus of the complaints from one class to another. Two years ago, the "OP" classes were the strength greatsworder and lancer cav, 1h was a joke, and mounted ranged was a novelty. Nerfs and buffs were doled out accordingly, and now we complain about different classes, but the overall amount of complaining stayed the same.

If we instead focus on requesting improvements to the reward system, game modes, and team balance, then there is a much better chance of the game actually getting funner than if we just focus on shifting the overpowered mantle from one class to another.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 07:04:38 pm
If we instead focus on requesting improvements to the reward system, game modes, and team balance, then there is a much better chance of the game actually getting funner than if we just focus on shifting the overpowered mantle from one class to another.

Despite having created this poll, I do agree Phew...to me the biggest things are the TEAM BALANCER and game modes, as well as exp/rewards system.  Hence why I added those options to the poll, and they are getting a lot of votes.

The terrible team balancer is (I think) largely to blame for NA Siege's demise.
That and siege just needs to be replaced by TDM imho.

I wanted to get a sense of where the population was on these balance issues though as well, if nothing else it might help the item balancers a bit.

So far the things the population seems to think are that:

- Stabs from all weapons are OP
- Ranged Cav is OP
- Xbow is OP
- Throwing is OP
- Team Balancer is broken...
- Game modes need work
- EXP system needs work
- and that fire magic is OP...please tell me an admin added this cause I did not add this option  :shock:
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Sauce on February 03, 2014, 07:36:39 pm
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Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Tydeus on February 03, 2014, 07:49:11 pm
What if you nerfed speed bonus for everyone with thrusts, but found a way to keep 1/2 directional poles decent?

Poles should be stabbing masters when 2/1 directional. Otherwise stabs could do with a nerf across the board.
It's possible. It would mean reducing the melee speed bonus exponent which would have affects for all melee under nearly all situations. Because of this, we'd need to slightly increase the damage on all melee weapons(not just for thrusts) while giving larger bonuses for the thrust-oriented weapons. Minimum damage would be increased while maximum damage reduced, for all swing directions and classes(including cav). You could also argue, that this would be a nerf to player skill.

Not saying we plan to do this, or are even talking about it, I'm just stating the possibility.
 
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Grumbs on February 03, 2014, 07:56:07 pm
TBH my main gripe with thrusts is the 1 hand stab. I play all melee classes, it just feels wrong when I use it and it makes ranged too strong in melee
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 07:56:34 pm
Nothing in this shit game is OP. Your opponent's skill set and your ego are the problem.

Truly hope this and other comments like it are directed at the population as a whole and are not specifically directed at me for having created this poll...as the intention of the poll was to get a snapshot of the entire population's sentiments about balance and not to express my own opinions on what is OP or not (which are few, because I know I am only so good and therefore cannot make gratuitous claims about balance).

But if this (and the others are)...well, then this...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Jona on February 03, 2014, 08:04:01 pm
So far the things the population seems to think are that:

- Stabs from all weapons are OP
- Ranged Cav is OP
- Xbow is OP
- Throwing is OP
- Team Balancer is broken...
- Game modes need work
- EXP system needs work
- and that fire magic is OP...please tell me an admin added this cause I did not add this option  :shock:

Huh... I voted for all of those, and only those. I would have voted for 2D poles but didn't notice it at first. Also those flying carpets and fireball-shooting staffs are indeed OP.

(click to show/hide)

EDIT: Sheeeeeeeeit... I had typed about 3 paragraphs before this and it didn't post.  :cry:

Basically, siege >> TDM. TDM (or maybe FFA?) was around back in the day... had lower population than siege does now, and that's when people actually played. Siege is better since it gives you a purpose. If you die, but save the flag from being capped, gj, you may not have killed a single person, but you held back the attackers, won the day, and are now a hero. TDM was all about rewarding the best killers... not at all how this game should work. Each game mode needs to have some kind of strategy or teamwork requirement. You might think that in TDM you can group up, but with scattered spawns, and people dying and coming back at different times, it is less organized than siege.

Also I forgot I voted for melee cav... mostly because 1h/2h cav is ridiculous... the range increase *cough ghost reach cough* on swings is insane. There is no reason a 1h or 2h sword should 1hit kill me when getting skewered by a lance does barely half... and that is pierce damage. A decent cav player (devilize comes to mind) can absolutely abuse the shit out of bumb slashing, leaving anyone without a really long spear completely helpless. Not to mention that with a morningstar each bumpslash is pretty much guaranteed to oneshot anyone.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Sauce on February 03, 2014, 08:21:56 pm
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Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 08:33:28 pm
Gameplay mechanics other than "item balancing" need to take control finally.

I hear ya, which is why I added the last poll options about team balance, exp system, game modes, etc...

They are easily bigger issues than specific balance issues atm...but I fear that the crpg devs have moved on from making any major changes like that and will just be doing that in Melee instead now. 
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: dreadnok on February 03, 2014, 08:38:20 pm
Sigh, elindork. 1h with shield and without have to have their own separate category bud. Swashbuckling and shields are solo different they can't be in the same group
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 03, 2014, 08:43:42 pm
Sigh, elindork. 1h with shield and without have to have their own separate category bud. Swashbuckling and shields are solo different they can't be in the same group

I know, but there's like 25 categories already...

Also, I figured people would be voting on other stuff anyhow, which was correct :)

I love you though.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: dreadnok on February 03, 2014, 08:45:34 pm
OK disregard :) feeling is mutual
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Jona on February 03, 2014, 08:49:52 pm
I hear ya, which is why I added the last poll options about team balance, exp system, game modes, etc...

They are easily bigger issues than specific balance issues atm...but I fear that the crpg devs have moved on from making any major changes like that and will just be doing that in Melee instead now.

Ah, I forgot in my last post that one of my misplaced paragraphs rambled on and on about banner balancers... thanks for the reminder. Basically, I have mixed feelings with the damn broken thing. I hate that it could never have balanced gallonigher and myself, even if we were the only 2 from our clan in a 20-man server on the same team. This was one of the major reason he left... why bother being in a clan with your buddies if you are never on the same team? While I am sure the rest of the server was glad, it still really sucked being in our position. Ever since he left the clan, we have been on the same team as often, if not MORE often than before... makes no sense. On the flip side, I was really glad that if we both had really high scores relative to the rest of the population that we were split, since the balancer tried to preserve balance by splitting us. Okay, A for effort, unfortunately it doesn't do so consistently at all. The only time the score balancer ever takes precedence over the banner balancer seems to be when you have one or two stand out players. For example when KUTT stacks siege with 8 or so players at once, they will consistently stay on one team since they have a whole range of skill sets. EVen if the server has only 20 players, odds are almost all of them are on one team, save for maybe 1 or 2 tops. The problem here is, while a some of their members might not be topping the scoreboard, that could be for a variety of reasons... perhaps they are camping the flag, in which case they are arguably doing more for their team than the ones topping the boards. Or maybe they simply aren't as good as several other members of their team or the opposing team... having an off day or whatever. And yet the balancer keeps them together, since the numbers don't show their incredible value. Having 8 members in one TS to coordinate while you are playing against pubbies is a huuuuuuuuuuuuge advantage. Having 8 members of the same clan, no matter how skilled at combat each member is, is incredibly helpful. Especially when the server is so sparsely populated as it often is. Heck, even when not in TS, i just naturally work better with my clanmates since we all know how each other play by now, and how to best complement them.

While splitting larger banner stacks in half is pretty lame (I know first hand) it isn't all that bad. I've had just as much, if not more fun fighting against clanmates (since that allows for more good humored trash talking of each other) as alongside them. When a whole clan is together, they tend to actually play seriously, use strategy, etc, since you've got to "represent your clan well." What clan, when dominating an entire team wouldn't try at least a little harder than normal so that they don't get stomped by the pubbies?

TL;DR: Would be nice if sometimes banner balance took into account the fact that a large presence on one banner has inherent advantages. In siege often times one side is down by 2-3 players... this wouldn't be so bad if it was an entire clan vs. a slightly larger team. Unfortunately this isn't the case.


Edit: Huh... Elindork... can't believe I never thought of that before. I will have to keep that one in mind...  8-)
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Lichen on February 03, 2014, 10:28:24 pm
This poll reflects the pervasive whining heard usually within 1 minute of joining a battle server. Which is of course what? Guess.... RANGED! Of course. So what devs need to do is make heavier expensive armors actually armor and not just act like extra health. They cost enough so they should provide actual protection against weaker ranged and not just act like they are made of cardboard.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Pestdoktor on February 03, 2014, 10:34:49 pm
 Missing Fire Magic is UP option...
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Jack1 on February 03, 2014, 11:55:32 pm
IMO leave combat as it is!

I do as good as any melee class as the other and have hard times with the same people.

Make crossbows reload time longer. Deticated crossbows that don't run or use bs combat tactics don't deserve a nerf I imagine most people want.

Make all throwing lose bonus vs shields for all but axes. Slight decrease in accuracy while moving.

HX is nerfed enough as is

HA should loose accuracy/damage the more they turn around to look behind themselves. It would make them want to turn towards the cav chasing them and thus making it easier to catch them

Gmnotutu gets flaming katana in exchange for all of his looms

Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: sjarken on February 04, 2014, 12:23:30 am
Please find a way to lower the amount of archers/xbowers in this game. Or balance the teams with the same amount of ranged/cav/mele.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Macropus on February 04, 2014, 12:48:06 am
Thrusts can not only hit players faster(earlier in the animation), because of speed bonus mechanics, you can easily obtain double or even triple the speed bonus of a swing.
Double or triple the speed bonus of a swing, are you sure about that?
It might work completely different in c-rpg, but in Native singleplayer the maximum speed bonus I could achieve against static target is 36% with thrusts and like 33% with sideswings (not sure if numbers are 100% correct, but the difference was that small).
Really, though, it's not much that stab damage is too high, but landing a stab is too easy comparing with other attacks, especially in ganks, which makes mass melee less interesting and more frustrating.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Tagora on February 04, 2014, 12:49:42 am
Where is the poll option for armor balancing?
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 04, 2014, 06:19:50 pm
One thing that I think would go a long way towards improving the game, would be to re-work valour.  I put up a topic a while back that received good poll results:  http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/calculator-valour-separately-for-both-teams/

Basically I think valour needs to be calculated separately for both teams.  Or at minimum, only calculated on the losing team, and awarded to the losing team. 

I also like prpavi's recent suggestion, and think that you should be ineligible for valour if you are on the losing team and still alive at round end (like when flag goes up). 
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Phew on February 04, 2014, 06:27:41 pm
One thing that I think would go a long way towards improving the game, would be to re-work valour.  I put up a topic a while back that received good poll results:  http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/calculator-valour-separately-for-both-teams/

Basically I think valour needs to be calculated separately for both teams.  Or at minimum, only calculated on the losing team, and awarded to the losing team. 

I also like prpavi's recent suggestion, and think that you should be ineligible for valour if you are on the losing team and still alive at round end (like when flag goes up).

Valor is too Boolean; why should the guy that got 73 points that round keep his x5 despite his team losing, while the guy that gets 72 points get relegated to x1?

The multiplier system should be eradicated, and award gold/xp solely for contributing near the action/objectives. The reward should be difficulty-based; i.e. if you are a peasant and kill a lvl 35 in full looms, you get a pile of gold and xp. The lvl 35 guy kills a peasant and gets very little.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 04, 2014, 07:21:51 pm
The plan I thought the devs were initiating (which seems they never finished) was to make multiplier a result of multiple factors - winning/losing, personal performance (score), and Valor.

So that even if a person was on a losing team but did well (and/or got valor) they had a chance to gain/retain a multiplier rather than sitting at x1 all night.  I believe there was discussion of fraction multipliers like x1.5 that would be used in this system...

I would love to see this system finished as I think it would soften the blow from the terribly balanced team balancer combined with clan stacks.

---

As for Valor...it should be granted only to those on the losing team, and if someone already has a x5 it should pass them by and look for the next highest score that round.

Could give "honorable mentions" to people that would have gotten valor but were either on the winning team and/or already had x5.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Corsair831 on February 04, 2014, 07:34:32 pm
TBH my main gripe with thrusts is the 1 hand stab. I play all melee classes, it just feels wrong when I use it and it makes ranged too strong in melee

it does get frustrating when you're trying to fight a group of archers who all spam the 1h stab and the kick, it should not be so impossibly hard to kill someone with 5 PS and 50 wpf because he has an instant 1h stab and long assed ranged kicks  8-)
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Phew on February 04, 2014, 09:36:21 pm
it does get frustrating when you're trying to fight a group of archers who all spam the 1h stab and the kick, it should not be so impossibly hard to kill someone with 5 PS and 50 wpf because he has an instant 1h stab and long assed ranged kicks  8-)

I always thought it was strange that the reduced-slot 2h weapons (Langes Messer secondary, Mace, Fighting Axe Secondary, Military Sickle Secondary) had to go without a thrust or accept the short-ranged pole thrust (langes), while the reduced-slot 1h weapons are some of the best thrusting 1h weapons period. I use a Broad Short Sword, not because it's 0-slot, but because I think it's the best all-around 1h weapon. Then again, any archer that beats a dedicated melee player despite having only 5PS and 50wpf is probably a significantly better player anyway.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Grumbs on February 05, 2014, 03:32:49 pm
I think they way over buffed the 0 slot 1 handers tbh. Whats the point of making xbows 2 slot and then putting in good 0 slot 1 handers?

Now we should make xbows 3 slot?

Its not just the 0 slot 1 handers though, 1 handers in general have been made too good with agi
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Miwiw on February 05, 2014, 03:57:27 pm
I think they way over buffed the 0 slot 1 handers tbh. Whats the point of making xbows 2 slot and then putting in good 0 slot 1 handers?

Now we should make xbows 3 slot

Xbow 3 slot + 1 slot bolts + 0 slot weapon changes only that they get less amount of bolts. Still they are quite strong and compared to archers they're still able to wear high armor stuff and without sacrificing much aim they are getting good melee stats as well (PS, wpf).
Especially long bow archers below lvl 31 suffer a lot nowadays.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Adre on February 05, 2014, 04:14:46 pm
Knockdown is also OP
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: justme on February 05, 2014, 04:38:27 pm
SPEED BONUS IS OP
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Moncho on February 05, 2014, 04:43:05 pm
Also please add QQ op as an option, it has been the biggest bane of cRPG
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Ronin on February 05, 2014, 05:12:03 pm
Which class gets the most OP vote, I will play it. Keep voting for me to decide. I want to drink some tears.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: dreadnok on February 05, 2014, 08:05:00 pm
I really don't see armor as a problem, if your 1h just usE a high Pierce stab or the dreaded steel pick!  Stabs on the other hand should be revamped!  If you swing them they should glance or do slash damage
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 07, 2014, 12:03:54 am
Seems after a few days and 182 votes that the key issues the players see are:

OVER 70 VOTES EACH
- Team balancer is broken...
- Stabs (all weapons) are OP
- Ranged Cav is OP
- Xbow is OP

OVER 50 VOTES EACH
- Throwing is OP
- EXP System is broken...
- Since I split Polearms into 4D and 2D, it is noteworthy that combined they had 52 votes (only note this because it is the only weapon class I split)
  Also worth mentioning is that most of the votes for Poles being OP came from the 2D option.
- Also, Fire Magic, so OP...

Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Chosen1 on February 07, 2014, 12:22:13 am
I've never played a game that is still broken 4 years after release.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on February 07, 2014, 03:23:58 pm
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Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Elindor on February 07, 2014, 07:09:08 pm
That is the interesting thing about the poll...I agree with most of the stuff that is getting a lot of votes....but I personally have not had issues with xbow enough to mention it.  Apparently others have...
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Jona on February 08, 2014, 09:55:52 am
The main gripe everyone has with xbows is that anyone can be a decent xbow user, and that dedicated xbow snipers don't sacrifice enough melee potential. The only difference between an dedicated agi 1hander and a dedicated xbow user is that the dedicated 1hander might have 100 more wpf in 1h. The fact that an xbow can have 8 or 9 athletics kinda makes up for any low wpf.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Lichen on February 08, 2014, 10:56:25 pm
The main gripe everyone has with xbows is that anyone can be a decent xbow user, and that dedicated xbow snipers don't sacrifice enough melee potential.

How about this then: Lower all crossbow requirements (sounds crazy I know). Then make all crossbows crazy inaccurate and requiring a huge amount of wpf to make them accurate. This would make crossbowers have a lower PS so when they do melee they are quite weak. On another note though if people think it's not the melee part of crossbow that is OP but the crossbow itself I will say since the last armor change crossbows are noticeably weaker. In dtv even relatively weak bots like weaboos and searaiders can sustain an arbalest hit. Another thing I've been saying about crossbows is there should be an optional cut damage bolt just like archers have cut damage arrows. They could even be higher damage than the pierce ones which would be better against weaker armor.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Kafein on February 08, 2014, 11:09:54 pm
I think they way over buffed the 0 slot 1 handers tbh. Whats the point of making xbows 2 slot and then putting in good 0 slot 1 handers?

Now we should make xbows 3 slot?

Its not just the 0 slot 1 handers though, 1 handers in general have been made too good with agi

It seems that in your opinion every usable 1h is "good". If they had even only one or two damage points less those 0 slots would be barely viable with 5 PS.

Right now some of these 0 slots are probably a little too good, but I think the only thing that could happen to them without turning them into trash would be slowing them down and/or making them lighter to cause more blockstun.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on February 08, 2014, 11:20:40 pm
want to take away my crossbow, and now even my short war sword is op? lol

have to make 5-8 hits with 6PS to kill anyone with over 40 total body armor, and it's just too quickly, right?

fuck you bundle of stickss, disgusting bunch of crybabies
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Jona on February 08, 2014, 11:22:06 pm
The thing you guys have to remember is that while xbows might generally have lower PS and 1h wpf, they usually have somewhere around 8 athletics, and lighter armor. With speed bonus behind them, and the ability to dance away from enemy swings, their wpf and PS doesn't need to be all that great to inflict pretty decent damage.

Also, couple this with a good 1h stab, and well, gg. Even using a non-stabbing 1h they can be incredibly effective. One of the problems in this game is that pretty much everyone is a vet, and knows how to block reliably. It would be nice if when you ninja an archer or xbow they were nearly helpless, but that simply is not the case due to the average player skill being so high. I bet nearly all of us guys here could perform nearly as well with 1 wpf as opposed to what we are used to. Heck, on my new archer alt (don't judge, I only really use him in DTV) I have been using either a staff or an italian falchion both with 1wpf and really don't see much difference than if I had somewhere around 100. I HAVE done some PvPing with it, and yes, its SLIGHTLY slower than I would like, but since I can block relatively well, it isn't much of an issue. The only way to really win a serious duel with such low wpf would be playing it safe and letting your opponent slip up, which is a perfectly legitimate tactic, and isn't insanely hard to do since your opponent will generally be overconfident being a dedicated melee build, and you are but a mere archer/xbow.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Phew on February 10, 2014, 03:40:19 pm
With speed bonus behind them,

All the whines about stabs are really whines about speed bonus; a guy with 8 ATH/6 PS and a 30p stab does a sh!t ton more damage than a guy with 8 PS and a 34p steel pick/Bec, because stabs lend themselves to achieving massive speed bonus more so than sideswings.

I think all that needs to be done is cap non-mounted speed bonus at around 30% extra dmg or so, and scale it down so that you can't achieve that 30% unless you are a speed demon running directly at another speed demon. Maybe just do this for stabs, because my experience in native is that it's much harder to achieve ridiculous speed bonus with sideswings/overheads anyway.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Kafein on February 10, 2014, 04:04:45 pm
want to take away my crossbow, and now even my short war sword is op? lol

have to make 5-8 hits with 6PS to kill anyone with over 40 total body armor, and it's just too quickly, right?

fuck you bundle of stickss, disgusting bunch of crybabies

The problem with your setup is that you can turtle at will and take centuries to die when caught, no matter how good the player that caught you happens to be.

Except 70 less 1h wpf or something, you basically have the same build as an agi shielder. So you do about the same damage as those guys in melee. That's where the bullshit is. There's no tradeoff for using a crossbow.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Hygat on February 10, 2014, 04:12:29 pm
I'd like to vote that dedicated horse throwing with no side weapon is UP but its not an option, several people I have watched on EU 1 who play dedicated horse throwing (including Boerenlater and Makelele) play very well in my opinion but rarely get the top scoreboard position they deserve.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Jack1 on February 10, 2014, 05:21:56 pm
I'd like to vote that dedicated horse throwing with no side weapon is UP but its not an option, several people I have watched on EU 1 who play dedicated horse throwing (including Boerenlater and Makelele) play very well in my opinion but rarely get the top scoreboard position they deserve.

For quite a while San and tydeus were testing ht on NA 1. Every map the were at least top 5 on their team.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Sniger on February 10, 2014, 05:37:43 pm
facinating
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Sniger on February 10, 2014, 05:42:32 pm
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lobbyist

you very well dang knows its OP but you are using it so you don't want it nerfed. you don't care about a nice game you just want your OP shit so you can wave your epeen around hoping someone will recognize the sheer skill it takes to point and click with no penalties in melee. point and click is hard.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Breidr on February 12, 2014, 06:17:16 am
Just throwing in some notes on the EXP system hoping it gets looked into.

As of right now, DTV is more profitable for me at Gen 2 than actually playing battle, and less frustrating too.  Battle is just a waste of time at this point.  I think I calculated that I have 15 or so hours left to get to 31, assuming constant 2x.

Team Balancing and Banner stacking is also a big problem, and actually compounds the EXP problem.  The system rewards stacked teams, and that's just not right.

I thought strat was for teamplay.  The public servers should be just that, for the pubs.  It seems games are more often decided by who has the bigger clan, or more cavalry and what not.  As an NW player I'm used to class limits and that keeps Cav spam down, but I'm not sure how that would translate to cRPG.
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Sniger on February 13, 2014, 04:29:33 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: SP1N on February 13, 2014, 07:08:13 am
No option for 1d polearms?
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Uumdi on February 13, 2014, 08:51:12 am
..ranged cav... OP?

i mean... i hate it too but...

hmmm
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Sniger on February 13, 2014, 02:34:23 pm
tanks is OP too but that doesnt mean i dont like them or dont want them in a wargame :)
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Mr.K. on February 13, 2014, 03:36:50 pm
..ranged cav... OP?

i mean... i hate it too but...

hmmm

It has been nerfed since this poll was started. Horse archers got hit the hardest with the armor soak changes and are no longer OP as far as I've seen. Still annoying though :)
Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Sniger on February 14, 2014, 07:25:03 pm
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Title: Re: Overall Balance Poll : Q1 2014 (VOTE AGAIN, POLL UPDATED)
Post by: Sniger on February 15, 2014, 04:43:35 am
 :twisted:

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