lolstab is something typical from 2h, the serpent movement around everything.
Can you fix the lolstab aswell??I noticed today that the 2h thrust is vastly different than the other thrusts with how TW chose to implement it. It doesn't have an actual ready animation nor a continue animation(The animation that gets played after an attack if you don't press any keys). Not only that, but the total frame length is much, much shorter than the other animations.
Sure. The overheads for polearms aren't so great.Yes, but I'm not sure the change would result solely in desirable consequences.
Any way to fix 100+ length 1hers' overheads from bouncing on the ground so much?
Seems good to me. The crappiest animations have always been (in no particular order):I have an idea for a very subtle fix to the 1h right swing. Again, thrusts as a whole are much, much more complicated.
-Polearm left swing
-Polearm overhead
-1h right swing
-1h thrust
This seems to address the first two; how about the last two?
Again, thrusts as a whole are much, much more complicated.
Tydeus, glad to see you looking more closely at the animations. cmp has always made posts indicating that animation sweetspots are the same for all three weapon types, when gameplay obviously refutes that.He's right though, any differences come from the animations themselves and tricks of the eye, not from code.
Why not fix all overheads...
"Proposal #2 ... is to change the sweetspot for all overheads so that they do 0 damage to players behind you."
...any differences come from the animations themselves and tricks of the eye, not from code.
Yes, but I'm not sure the change would result solely in desirable consequences.
I'm pretty sure Tydeus's post suggests a change to ALL overheads.
I'm talking about having them not get stuck on the person behind you, not just doing no damage.
(about 1h overheads bouncing for 100+ length)Unlike 2h and polearm overheads that result in the weapon ending at something like -30 degrees, the 1h release animation ends with the weapon pointing straight down, this is why the weapon can bounce. The fix here, would be to rotate the wrists at the later parts of the animation so that it ends at -45 to -60 degrees. Sadly, this could be enough to cause the overhead to "bounce hit" a player like the 2h overhead does. Interestingly, the fix for the 2h overhead bounce that hits opponents(the bounce that hits players is in the animation itself, not caused by connecting with the ground) is to rotate the wrists/swing arc so that it's more circular, ending in a -45 to -60 degree range.
That sounds unfortunate, mostly the last 5%, since 98-100 length overheads bounce sometimes, and ~102+ bounce almost every time. Just wanted to bring it a little more attention compared to other more known issues. This is completely anecdotal, but shorter 1h's overheads feel like they hit sooner than the longer ones..
He's right though, any differences come from the animations themselves and tricks of the eye, not from code.
Oh...I would love that too lol...but as unfortunate as it is, it's kinda realistic :(
About as realistic as putting your weapon through the wall on the back swing.I didn't reply because it's not something I can do. It's not even something Urist can do I imagine. I'm quite certain this would require cmp and a significant amount of work with WSE2.
But since my request was ignored for admittedly being off topic, why not just reduce the amount that the weapon is brought back. Right now its practically parallel with the floor when brought back for an overhead, why not reduce the distance the weapon is brought back on back swing animation so that its on part with the 2H overhead in terms of hitting the sweet spot? This would also make it more easier to use in a group clusterfuck.
Fair enough.If I understand you correctly, yes that's something I could do. Is it on the table though? Probably not. At least not in such a way that would have any impacts on gameplay. It sucks sometimes, but it's an important part of item balance between long and short weapons.
What about reducing the length of the back swing animation? Same problem?
I noticed today that the 2h thrust is vastly different than the other thrusts with how TW chose to implement it. It doesn't have an actual ready animation nor a continue animation(The animation that gets played after an attack if you don't press any keys). Not only that, but the total frame length is much, much shorter than the other animations.
I'll be analyzing the differences more closely in the future to try and figure out if the animation itself is what causes the QQ. In all honesty though, I find myself in doubt.
I've noticed the right swing change and I LOVE it, please keep tweaking the polearm animations.Yes, the right swing. That's correct.
The crappiest animations have always been (in no particular order):lol, this can't be serious...
-Polearm left swing
-Polearm overhead
-1h right swing
-1h thrust
I've noticed the right swing change and I LOVE it, please keep tweaking the polearm animations.
Yes, the right swing. That's correct.
I'm only using polearms and i didn't notice much diffrence still right to left seems faster than opposite. Anyway ofc +2 for both proposalsRight to left is faster for both 2h and polearms, that's intended.
And if you are calling for Tydeus' head, I direct your attention to the English Bill and Swiss Halberd, two polearms that are currently complete shit.With the recent reduction of weight from 4 to 3 on the English Bill it has become a pretty awesome weapon, it doesn't feel underpowered at all, at least to me.
Use "left-to-right swing" or "right-to-left swing," which leaves zero ambiguity about which attack you are referring to.
Right to left is faster for both 2h and polearms, that's intended.
And I thought left to right swings had the fastest swing on them?
no, I think they just connect faster.This. Off the top of my head I believe the 2h right swing enters the sweet spot at about 39% progression through the release animation and the left swing enters at about 44%. Poles are still slower, but only very, slightly.
This. Off the top of my head I believe the 2h right swing enters the sweet spot at about 39% progression through the release animation and the left swing enters at about 44%. Poles are still slower, but only very, slightly.
Right to left is faster for both 2h and polearms, that's intended.Why it is intended? Reduce the spam? Or just generally FU polearms?
Why it is intended? Reduce the spam? Or just generally FU polearms?
While you are at it; could you have a look at polearm and onehand thrust?See the update in the first post. Taking a look at the pole thrust now(which doesn't need as much work, if any).
They seem to glance a lot easier at the end of the animation compared to twohanded thrust animation.
From what I've seen, people refer to LEFT SWING or RIGHT SWING based on the side of the body that the swing is held on before release of the attack.
LEFT SWING = weapon is held across the player's body on their left side, releases from their left to their right
RIGHT SWING = weapon is held on the right side of the player, releases from their right to their left
I say, implement proposal 2 for every weapon type and every swing direction. End the hiltslashing madness !Wouldn't affect hilt slashing, you may turn into the swings but they're still somewhat in front of you.
The problem arises when people refer to swings based on how they initiate the action (i.e. mouse movement).
This is a problem because there are two types of mouse movement (normal and inverted) for dictating attack direction. As the names suggest, you would move your mouse in completely opposite directions to perform the same attack.
I only brought up the issue because a previous poster actually referred to the incorrect attack direction (based on context of what the poster was addressing). Yes, normally "left swing" and "right swing" are taken to mean where the weapon is held relative to the body, but whenpeople start referring to the opposite direction because they're going by how they move their mouse, then the only solution is to be as specific as possible.Rereading the post just makes me think that that poster had no idea what he was talking about.
Apologies for the side-bar.
Tydeus, is there any way you can tone down some of the ridiculous pike/long spear shit, while improving the stabs on other pole arms?I don't think so. All I've been doing really, is optimizing the animations for their sweetspots.
Curious to 2h trust sweetspot compared to 1h and pole. Got anything interesting for us there?
I don't think so. All I've been doing really, is optimizing the animations for their sweetspots.
There's a lot I could share, but I don't think it's what you're looking for. There's no single thing that makes the 2h thrust better than the others, it's a combination of several factors.
Update: Decided to go ahead and put my 1h thrust animation fix in as well. This will take a very slight bit of getting used to, but it will allow you to use the full length of the thrust.
Then give us several factors :P
I know the 2h stab animation is strong, but that can't be the only thing :P
Have the polearm stabs been altered recently? They feel weird. I think they go through people sometimes which would have been a hit earlier... But maybe thats just my imagination.
Then give us several factors :P
I know the 2h stab animation is strong, but that can't be the only thing :P
I believe what you're feeling is turn rate nerf. it does feel different, no more 180 stabs to the face, but still very playable just takes getting used to.
Hey Prpavi, thanks for the anwser. But I do not mean the turnratenerf. I think opf something in the last few days.
Have the polearm stabs been altered recently? They feel weird. I think they go through people sometimes which would have been a hit earlier... But maybe thats just my imagination.
You did say you got used to it in about 10 seconds, although could you explain why it may take a bit to get used to? I assume you may of just meant it will be a bit of a surprise at first, although I just want to make sure.It looks exactly the same, but if you use the appearance of the animation(how far your arm has extended) as an indicator for when to hit your opponent, you'll likely have to spend a little bit getting used to the change.
Also, you were a bit vague on what exactly you changed about the 1h stab. How much of a change was made to the "Sweet spot"? (If you can explain it in more detail)
Then give us several factors :PHaboe, you wanted to know specifics, this is one of them. The 2h animation is perfectly progressed so that it falls within the sweetspot at the optimal time. So now, in this area, the thrusts are on an even playing field. Unfortunately, the 2h thrust still originates at head level and from the center of the body. This means that even though you hit outside of the optimal sweet spot, you can still end up doing a fair amount of damage because like the 1h left swing, you're probably going to hit your opponents face without even trying to. And you can't forget, the 2h thrust still has the longest reach gained because of how the character stretches.
I know the 2h stab animation is strong, but that can't be the only thing :P
Have the polearm stabs been altered recently? They feel weird. I think they go through people sometimes which would have been a hit earlier... But maybe thats just my imagination.None of the animation optimizations other than the polearm left-to-right swing are live as of this moment.
It should "feel" like it doesn't glance as often at max range.
Tydeus, thanks again for looking in such detail at the animations; I feel that this is the most pressing issue in cRPG right now.Doubtful, though there are a few things to be said here. First of all, notice that at the start of the sweetspot, the arm still hasn't extended at all? Take a look at the 1h animation, don't you think it would be impossible to tell, just from looking at the animation, when the sweetspot starts? Now throw active combat into that attempt, it gets even harder. My opinion is that the reason it glanced so often, is that there was no indicator to tell a player when the proper time to hit an opponent was. You have to use tricks like turning into the swing which add a delay to your attack. Tricks like this are often done in fighting games because they make timing things correctly, much easier. So in essence, the thrust glances are caused solely by a mistiming of when you allow your blade to come into contact with an opponent which has been made rather difficult to do due to the animation's progression.
Does the 1h thrust change you are currently testing also reduce the chance to glance at low-medium range? Personally, I've always been most annoyed at how poorly short swords thrust at short range, since this situation was their intended purpose, historically. Glancing at max range is less annoying, since I always considered 1.5m+ to be the domain of spears and greatswords, not 1h swords.
The hitbox being waaaaay to the right of the weapon tip for both polearm and 1h thrust is the other huge annoyance, but I imagine that's harder to change.
When Tydeus talks technical he makes me get all hot n bothered...anyone else?I'm not very articulate so I worry sometimes that I seem like I'm droning on endlessly, not making any sense or worse, adding to the convolution. In the end I'm just glad that so many people show support for this.
I'm not very articulate so I worry sometimes that I seem like I'm droning on endlessly, not making any sense or worse, adding to the convolution. In the end I'm just glad that so many people show support for this.
but any decent player should be able to tell after a few minutes dueling if a particular change is an improvement.This is actually what worries me. It will probably take people longer than the 10 seconds it took me to adapt to the changes(Really only talking about the 1h thrust tbh). Urist thought the old animation was better until I instructed him as to how to use the thrust. At that point he immediately realized the difference and changed his mind. That's with us being able to test my animation vs the native one, players will have to join a native server to make the comparison we made.
wat? the old animations are better for facehug stabs. never said they are better overall because it was obvious from the beginning that the adjusted end frames will make the new stab better at anything else but being very close.Sure, if you hit at the same frame(not frame number, same frame by appearance) then you're going to glance, because that frame is no longer inside the sweet spot. When talking about when as a matter of time and not the appearance of the animation, when you need to be landing the hit is the same. You can still land a hit at the beginning and just before the optimal sweet spot begins and the arm has only barely, or not at all, begun to extend forward. So you still have the close range abilities as before, except now you will be able to utilize the full range of the thrust as well.
wat? the old animations are better for facehug stabs. never said they are better overall because it was obvious from the beginning that the adjusted end frames will make the new stab better at anything else but being very close.
I look forward to the next nerf to my primary weapon.:D
Don't quote me on this, but I think it's the short arming sword, or another similar short stabby sword. :twisted:
Secondly, I heard that you had long been trying to find the source of hiltslashing in an attempt to eliminate it... just wondering if you have had any progress on that front?I know what I need to, to be able to say hilt slashing is a non issue. Aggravating, sure, but a non issue. If you get hilt slashed, it was your own fault. Unlike glaces from poor animations.
I know what I need to, to be able to say hilt slashing is a non issue. Aggravating, sure, but a non issue. If you get hilt slashed, it was your own fault. Unlike glaces from poor animations.
Because while hilt slashing may be fast, it isn't instant. Those "instant" hits, are something else entirely. A hilt slash is simply hitting outside of your sweet spot, normally this can cause glancing, but because of the footwork that is generally used in conjunction with this, you're easily able to keep yourself from glancing due to the added speed bonus. It can quite easily be blocked, but it's a skill you have do have to learn. I could go on, but Its actually harder for me to come up with reasons for why it is bad(without being cynical) than reasons for why it should stay. Maybe there's an argument I have yet to hear on the subject that could change my mind.
1h overhead is less risky than right-to-left swing, that's for sure. The only thing you can do is outpredict the opponent. If you move faster than him, chances are that the hiltslash will just fail. You can move away from your opponent's swing and utilize your sheer weapon speed advantage to still get a lot done.
There are quite a few situations where you can hit multiple times with a 1h if the player's positions are right, also.
I don't even notice the castors anymore, except for Cyranule since his character is much faster and he's better with the footwork.
I guess 1h are meant to be the "paper" to the "scissors" that is 2h, whereas I guess ranged are meant to be the "rock" (since 1h can carry a shield).
The above probably explains some trends I've noticed on the duel server; 1h players in the 1600-1700 range (like me) often can hang with 1h/pole players up to 1800+, but routinely get their butts handed to them by 2h players in the 1500-1600 range. And the 1800+ 2h players are nearly a guaranteed loss, barring obscene luck with chambers/kicks/etc.
Basically the reason why I see it warrants potential removal is when fighting someone who has mastered the art of exploiting 2h, like cyranule. Even though i was a fellow longsworder at the time, and most definitely had more wpf (not that it really increases speed all that drastically) he was able to swing nonstop and all I could do was block. If i even began to pull back my weapon I would be hit before I had time to cancel the attack.
I fail to see how that was my fault at the time (this occurred some time ago) since even though I was probably a worse player (2hander, for instance) I could indeed block well. Yet anyone who takes the time to learn such a dirty trick can easily destroy anyone who doesn't know how to. And you can only outmaneuver them so much, since they are most likely W keying while you must S key (in combination with A or D) which everyone knows is far slower.
Nerf inverted mouse attack direction, buff normal mouse attack directionNo never, l2block nub!
One thing at a time. I'm not going to get into stuff about hilt slashes until after the patch with the animation optimizations.
When decent players (and Jona is way better than decent) fight one of these 2h abusers and can't even get a swing off with an equal-speed weapon, something is terribly wrong. It should take a huge (15+) weapon speed differential or a player with severely impaired motor skills for someone to be able to consistently chain attacks against them. I imagine a lot of novice players have this happen to them and just think this game is dumb then quit. That's not good for anyone.
I asked him what exactly these 2handers did and he told me "they kinda hunch over, looking like they are trying to suck my dick, then as soon as their swing starts I get hit."