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Author Topic: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix  (Read 8033 times)

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Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2013, 08:10:27 am »
+2
Tydeus, is there any way you can tone down some of the ridiculous pike/long spear shit, while improving the stabs on other pole arms?
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2013, 08:29:25 am »
0
Tydeus, is there any way you can tone down some of the ridiculous pike/long spear shit, while improving the stabs on other pole arms?
I don't think so. All I've been doing really, is optimizing the animations for their sweetspots.

Curious to 2h trust sweetspot compared to 1h and pole. Got anything interesting for us there?

There's a lot I could share, but I don't think it's what you're looking for. There's no single thing that makes the 2h thrust better than the others, it's a combination of several factors.
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Offline Haboe

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2013, 11:17:20 am »
0
I don't think so. All I've been doing really, is optimizing the animations for their sweetspots.

There's a lot I could share, but I don't think it's what you're looking for. There's no single thing that makes the 2h thrust better than the others, it's a combination of several factors.

Then give us several factors :P

I know the 2h stab animation is strong, but that can't be the only thing :P
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Offline Necrorave

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2013, 03:16:55 pm »
0
Update: Decided to go ahead and put my 1h thrust animation fix in as well. This will take a very slight bit of getting used to, but it will allow you to use the full length of the thrust.

You did say you got used to it in about 10 seconds, although could you explain why it may take a bit to get used to?  I assume you may of just meant it will be a bit of a surprise at first, although I just want to make sure.

Also, you were a bit vague on what exactly you changed about the 1h stab.  How much of a change was made to the "Sweet spot"?  (If you can explain it in more detail)

Offline BlameMeForTheNoise

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2013, 03:59:50 pm »
0
Have the polearm stabs been altered recently? They feel weird. I think they go through people sometimes which would have been a hit earlier... But maybe thats just my imagination.

Offline Elindor

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2013, 04:00:01 pm »
0
Then give us several factors :P

I know the 2h stab animation is strong, but that can't be the only thing :P

They want 2h's head on a plate Tydeus.  They want to show us all how easy 2h is once and for all!  :evil:

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2013, 04:02:50 pm »
0
Have the polearm stabs been altered recently? They feel weird. I think they go through people sometimes which would have been a hit earlier... But maybe thats just my imagination.

I believe what you're feeling is turn rate nerf. it does feel different, no more 180 stabs to the face, but still very playable just takes getting used to.
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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2013, 04:04:20 pm »
0
Then give us several factors :P

I know the 2h stab animation is strong, but that can't be the only thing :P

Mainly how fluid the animations are. In those terms, the other classes are just crap.

Offline BlameMeForTheNoise

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2013, 04:07:16 pm »
0
I believe what you're feeling is turn rate nerf. it does feel different, no more 180 stabs to the face, but still very playable just takes getting used to.

Hey Prpavi, thanks for the anwser. But I do not mean the turnratenerf. I think of something in the last few days, if not yesterday...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 04:13:45 pm by BlameMeForTheNoise »

Offline Prpavi

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2013, 04:14:11 pm »
0
Hey Prpavi, thanks for the anwser. But I do not mean the turnratenerf. I think opf something in the last few days.

Oh, dunno then heaven't been playing last few days and today I'm on my laptop so everything feels shitty hahaha.
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Offline Canary

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2013, 04:58:07 pm »
+1
Have the polearm stabs been altered recently? They feel weird. I think they go through people sometimes which would have been a hit earlier... But maybe thats just my imagination.

This sounds very much like a connection issue. Long weapon thrusts in particular fly out the window when latency spikes higher than usual.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2013, 05:06:12 pm »
+4
You did say you got used to it in about 10 seconds, although could you explain why it may take a bit to get used to?  I assume you may of just meant it will be a bit of a surprise at first, although I just want to make sure.

Also, you were a bit vague on what exactly you changed about the 1h stab.  How much of a change was made to the "Sweet spot"?  (If you can explain it in more detail)
It looks exactly the same, but if you use the appearance of the animation(how far your arm has extended) as an indicator for when to hit your opponent, you'll likely have to spend a little bit getting used to the change.

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That is the sweetspot for all thrusts in crpg, it's paired with a line for how far the arm has extended to its maximum length(in %) for the native 1h thrust animation(what we currently use). Notice anything funny? The sweet spot and the arm extension don't line up at all, they're entirely separate. Not only that, but the point where your arm is fully extended falls completely outside of the sweetspot. This means a perfectly timed 1h thrust will only result in ~60% of the maximum range the animation can provide. So I simply optimized the animation's progression so that the arm starts extending earlier in the animation, allowing you to utilize its full potential. It should "feel" like it doesn't glance as often at max range. The polearm thrust was somewhat like this, too, just not nearly as out of place.

Then give us several factors :P

I know the 2h stab animation is strong, but that can't be the only thing :P
Haboe, you wanted to know specifics, this is one of them. The 2h animation is perfectly progressed so that it falls within the sweetspot at the optimal time. So now, in this area, the thrusts are on an even playing field. Unfortunately, the 2h thrust still originates at head level and from the center of the body. This means that even though you hit outside of the optimal sweet spot, you can still end up doing a fair amount of damage because like the 1h left swing, you're probably going to hit your opponents face without even trying to. And you can't forget, the 2h thrust still has the longest reach gained because of how the character stretches.

Have the polearm stabs been altered recently? They feel weird. I think they go through people sometimes which would have been a hit earlier... But maybe thats just my imagination.
None of the animation optimizations other than the polearm left-to-right swing are live as of this moment.

Edit: I just want to mention that even with native sweetspots, the animation progression still doesn't fit, so this isn't a problem created by cRPG. It was created by TW not giving a shit.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 05:14:15 pm by Tydeus »
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Offline Kenda

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2013, 05:15:10 pm »
-1
I think the change of left to right swing is great, finally feels like I am able to use it without sacrificing much.

Increasing overhead speed on polearms is definitely needed, it's very weak atm compared to the 3 other directions.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 05:20:20 pm by Kenda1337 »
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Offline Phew

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2013, 05:24:48 pm »
+1
It should "feel" like it doesn't glance as often at max range.

Tydeus, thanks again for looking in such detail at the animations; I feel that this is the most pressing issue in cRPG right now.

Does the 1h thrust change you are currently testing also reduce the chance to glance at low-medium range? Personally, I've always been most annoyed at how poorly short swords thrust at short range, since this situation was their intended purpose, historically. Glancing at max range is less annoying, since I always considered 1.5m+ to be the domain of spears and greatswords, not 1h swords.

The hitbox being waaaaay to the right of the weapon tip for both polearm and 1h thrust is the other huge annoyance, but I imagine that's harder to change.


Offline Tydeus

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Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2013, 06:23:08 pm »
+2
Tydeus, thanks again for looking in such detail at the animations; I feel that this is the most pressing issue in cRPG right now.

Does the 1h thrust change you are currently testing also reduce the chance to glance at low-medium range? Personally, I've always been most annoyed at how poorly short swords thrust at short range, since this situation was their intended purpose, historically. Glancing at max range is less annoying, since I always considered 1.5m+ to be the domain of spears and greatswords, not 1h swords.

The hitbox being waaaaay to the right of the weapon tip for both polearm and 1h thrust is the other huge annoyance, but I imagine that's harder to change.
Doubtful, though there are a few things to be said here. First of all, notice that at the start of the sweetspot, the arm still hasn't extended at all? Take a look at the 1h animation, don't you think it would be impossible to tell, just from looking at the animation, when the sweetspot starts? Now throw active combat into that attempt, it gets even harder. My opinion is that the reason it glanced so often, is that there was no indicator to tell a player when the proper time to hit an opponent was. You have to use tricks like turning into the swing which add a delay to your attack. Tricks like this are often done in fighting games because they make timing things correctly, much easier. So in essence, the thrust glances are caused solely by a mistiming of when you allow your blade to come into contact with an opponent which has been made rather difficult to do due to the animation's progression.

The hitbox thing I believe is also not real. Lets do a quick analysis of weapon positioning and simple geometry. People say both the pole and the 1h thrust animations hit to the right of where the weapon is portrayed as being, to be clear, they don't say this about 2h. Coincidentally 2h also has the only animation that not only doesn't originate from the right side of the body, but stays completely centered throughout.

Now lets bring in lag, assume for a second(because this is actually the case for a moving player) that no one you hit is ever exactly where they appear on your screen. So maybe they're to your right, maybe they're to your left. Keeping in mind that non 2h thrusts originate from the right side of the body, players don't have to be as far left of you as they have to be be right of you to not get hit by a thrust. Bring in psychology to remind us that we tend only to recall important events, as well as occurrences rather than the lack of occurrences; of course the mind will be so ready to think that the hitbox is off center, because you do actually hit more people to your right than to your left! For example, it's possible to hit someone (particularly teammates) standing to your right since that's where the weapon originates from, but anyone to your left is well out of range of the weapon. Furthermore, anyone that is left enough of the thrust to just barely get hit by it, is going to be positioned in front of you on your screen, your mind isn't going to register that as the weapon's hitbox being located to the left, instead you don't even think about it because it appears as though it's properly functional.

Now, it would be possible to change the angle and flow of the thrusts, but I'm not sure that's really such a good idea.
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