Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix

[Tydeus]

Tydeus, glad to see you looking more closely at the animations. cmp has always made posts indicating that animation sweetspots are the same for all three weapon types, when gameplay obviously refutes that.

He's right though, any differences come from the animations themselves and tricks of the eye, not from code.

[Elindor]

Why not fix all overheads...

I'm pretty sure Tydeus's post suggests a change to ALL overheads.

"Proposal #2 ... is to change the sweetspot for all overheads so that they do 0 damage to players behind you."

[Elindor]

...any differences come from the animations themselves and tricks of the eye, not from code.

I often feel one of my weaknesses is that I play off of what visually looks correct to me, rather than what is technically possible in the system

[San]

(about 1h overheads bouncing for 100+ length)

Yes, but I'm not sure the change would result solely in desirable consequences.

That sounds unfortunate, mostly the last 5%, since 98-100 length overheads bounce sometimes, and ~102+ bounce almost every time. Just wanted to bring it a little more attention compared to other more known issues. This is completely anecdotal, but shorter 1h's overheads feel like they hit sooner than the longer ones..

[Swaggart]

I'm pretty sure Tydeus's post suggests a change to ALL overheads.

I'm talking about having them not get stuck on the person behind you, not just doing no damage.

[Elindor]

I'm talking about having them not get stuck on the person behind you, not just doing no damage.

Oh...I would love that too lol...but as unfortunate as it is, it's kinda realistic

[Tydeus]

(about 1h overheads bouncing for 100+ length)
That sounds unfortunate, mostly the last 5%, since 98-100 length overheads bounce sometimes, and ~102+ bounce almost every time. Just wanted to bring it a little more attention compared to other more known issues. This is completely anecdotal, but shorter 1h's overheads feel like they hit sooner than the longer ones..

Unlike 2h and polearm overheads that result in the weapon ending at something like -30 degrees, the 1h release animation ends with the weapon pointing straight down, this is why the weapon can bounce. The fix here, would be to rotate the wrists at the later parts of the animation so that it ends at -45 to -60 degrees. Sadly, this could be enough to cause the overhead to "bounce hit" a player like the 2h overhead does. Interestingly, the fix for the 2h overhead bounce that hits opponents(the bounce that hits players is in the animation itself, not caused by connecting with the ground) is to rotate the wrists/swing arc so that it's more circular, ending in a -45 to -60 degree range.

I'm not sure that a sweet spot between the two exists, maybe for 1h as they're shorter, but likely not for 2h. You'll either hang at the end of the animation(truncating the hang results in faster spamming of overheads), or you'll bounce on the ground.

I looked at the 1h overhead to see if it was possible the longer 1hers hit sooner, but I don't think this can be the case at all. The only explanation would be that an opponent comes into range of your weapon at a later frame by either you or your opponent moving into the swing. So for 2 stationary opponents, both weapons(long and short) would always connect at exactly the same frame.

[Phew]

He's right though, any differences come from the animations themselves and tricks of the eye, not from code.

It must be a semantics issue. For instance, take a character with the same wpf in each weapon type, go on duel server, and have someone in medium-ish armor stand at about your 2 o'clock. Equip a Heavy Bastard sword (105 length, 36 cut), and execute a right swing. It connects.

Without either of you moving, equip a +3 Arabian Cavalry Sword (same 105 length, 36 cut), and execute a right swing. It glances.

To me, I'd say those two weapons have different sweetspots, because attacking an enemy in the exact same relative location has two different outcomes. You and cmp would say they have the same sweetspots, just different animations. All I know is that the 1h glances and the 2h doesn't (i.e. 2 o'clock is a sweet spot for 2h right swing but not 1h right swing).

[[ptx]]

I didn't really play much with four-directional polearms before, but i've tried them now and both swings now feel as easy as 2h sideswings. Was playing pretty much the same way as i might play 2h. Might be placebo, might be not.

1h thrust does need some tweaking. Have been playing with a MW LEE on my 1h alt, it's super frustrating whenever you're trying to stab a target that is moving to the sides - either you miss completely or you fail to get a good hit and glance. It's quite a bit harder to aim than pole or 2h thrust and you've got a much shorter time to do so as well. I've found that a lot of it is because the hitbox is pretty much above the right shoulder and somehow falls short of the center of the screen, which makes aiming it at a close, moving target rather unintuitive and difficult.
A side effect is that it is easier to stab a teammate directly to your right than an enemy slightly to your left.

[CrazyCracka420]

Phew is right about 1h thrust, I've killed teammates who were clearly a foot or 2 (or even close to 3) to the right of my thrust.  Like literally not even close to where the animation is showing my thrust.  Which is very odd considering I never glance when I thrust someone who's way off to my right (usually teammates) but I glance pretty often any time I try to line up a normal thrust on an enemy...maybe I should start thrusting at enemies when they are to my right

[Swaggart]

Oh...I would love that too lol...but as unfortunate as it is, it's kinda realistic

About as realistic as putting your weapon through the wall on the back swing.

But since my request was ignored for admittedly being off topic, why not just reduce the amount that the weapon is brought back. Right now its practically parallel with the floor when brought back for an overhead, why not reduce the distance the weapon is brought back on back swing animation so that its on part with the 2H overhead in terms of hitting the sweet spot? This would also make it more easier to use in a group clusterfuck.

[Tydeus]

About as realistic as putting your weapon through the wall on the back swing.

But since my request was ignored for admittedly being off topic, why not just reduce the amount that the weapon is brought back. Right now its practically parallel with the floor when brought back for an overhead, why not reduce the distance the weapon is brought back on back swing animation so that its on part with the 2H overhead in terms of hitting the sweet spot? This would also make it more easier to use in a group clusterfuck.

I didn't reply because it's not something I can do. It's not even something Urist can do I imagine. I'm quite certain this would require cmp and a significant amount of work with WSE2.

[Swaggart]

Fair enough.

What about reducing the length of the back swing animation? Same problem?

[Nehvar]

I'd rather the polearm backswings do triple damage to teammates.  Those ass-huggers deserve to die.

[Tydeus]

Fair enough.

What about reducing the length of the back swing animation? Same problem?

If I understand you correctly, yes that's something I could do. Is it on the table though? Probably not. At least not in such a way that would have any impacts on gameplay. It sucks sometimes, but it's an important part of item balance between long and short weapons.