Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix

[Jona]

I know what I need to, to be able to say hilt slashing is a non issue. Aggravating, sure, but a non issue. If you get hilt slashed, it was your own fault. Unlike glaces from poor animations.

Care to explain how it would be someone's own fault?

[Tydeus]

Because while hilt slashing may be fast, it isn't instant. Those "instant" hits, are something else entirely. A hilt slash is simply hitting outside of your sweet spot, normally this can cause glancing, but because of the footwork that is generally used in conjunction with this, you're easily able to keep yourself from glancing due to the added speed bonus. It can quite easily be blocked, but it's a skill you have do have to learn. I could go on, but Its actually harder for me to come up with reasons for why it is bad(without being cynical) than reasons for why it should stay. Maybe there's an argument I have yet to hear on the subject that could change my mind.

[Phew]

Because while hilt slashing may be fast, it isn't instant. Those "instant" hits, are something else entirely. A hilt slash is simply hitting outside of your sweet spot, normally this can cause glancing, but because of the footwork that is generally used in conjunction with this, you're easily able to keep yourself from glancing due to the added speed bonus. It can quite easily be blocked, but it's a skill you have do have to learn. I could go on, but Its actually harder for me to come up with reasons for why it is bad(without being cynical) than reasons for why it should stay. Maybe there's an argument I have yet to hear on the subject that could change my mind.

The fact that hiltslash hits fast isn't the problem, it's that this speed allows people to get a "free" double hit (after their first attack is blocked) if they properly guess the direction of their opponents' next swing. Against a 1h for instance, the hiltslashing player knows that the next swing is likely a left-to-right swing (since 1h thrust sucks, 1h right swing is slow/glance-prone, and all overheads are risky), so after their attack is blocked, they can just strafe left while executing a left-to-right swing and turning into it for a free hit. 2h hiltslash can land these double hits even with a slight weapon speed disadvantage (i.e. a Danish user probably can't do it against a Scimitar user, but a Miaodao user has no problem).

The problem is that attempting this maneuver is a risk-free proposition; if they guess wrong on their opponent's next attack direction, they just cancel their swing, block, and try again next time. I have a problem with any mechanic that allows high reward (a potential "out of turn" hit in this case) with no potential drawbacks.

If it can't be fixed by animation/sweetspot tweaks, one idea would be to disallow feints on any swing immediately following up a blocked swing. i.e. make it so that if someone is "spamming", they have to commit to the risk associated with said "spam" (that they may get hit during their followup swing).

[San]

1h overhead is less risky than right-to-left swing, that's for sure. The only thing you can do is outpredict the opponent. If you move faster than him, chances are that the hiltslash will just fail. You can move away from your opponent's swing and utilize your sheer weapon speed advantage to still get a lot done.

There are quite a few situations where you can hit multiple times with a 1h if the player's positions are right, also.

I don't even notice the castors anymore, except for Cyranule since his character is much faster and he's better with the footwork.

[Phew]

1h overhead is less risky than right-to-left swing, that's for sure. The only thing you can do is outpredict the opponent. If you move faster than him, chances are that the hiltslash will just fail. You can move away from your opponent's swing and utilize your sheer weapon speed advantage to still get a lot done.

There are quite a few situations where you can hit multiple times with a 1h if the player's positions are right, also.

I don't even notice the castors anymore, except for Cyranule since his character is much faster and he's better with the footwork.

All true, although I should point out that when a 1h is fighting a 2h, if you strafe right while performing a left-to-right swing with the hopes of "outrunning" the 2h's impending hiltslash, you will swing over his head because of the high positioning of the 1h left-to-right swing during the early part of its animation coupled with the fact that 2h users crouch during their sideswing animations.

1h is overall very good in a general battle sense, but all of the factors mentioned in this thread (poor right-to-left swing, poor thrust, high left-to-right swing animation, crouching 2h sideswing animations, etc), put them at a severe disadvantage when fighting 1v1 against a 2h user. I guess 1h are meant to be the "paper" to the "scissors" that is 2h, whereas I guess ranged are meant to be the "rock" (since 1h can carry a shield).

The above probably explains some trends I've noticed on the duel server; 1h players in the 1600-1700 range (like me) often can hang with 1h/pole players up to 1800+, but routinely get their butts handed to them by 2h players in the 1500-1600 range. And the 1800+ 2h players are nearly a guaranteed loss, barring obscene luck with chambers/kicks/etc.

[CrazyCracka420]

Can't even count how many times I've swung over a 2h's head (not like I was aiming all that high to begin with), when they are doing a side swing and I'm trying to avoid a hiltslash. 

[Jona]

Basically the reason why I see it warrants potential removal is when fighting someone who has mastered the art of exploiting 2h, like cyranule. Even though i was a fellow longsworder at the time, and most definitely had more wpf (not that it really increases speed all that drastically) he was able to swing nonstop and all I could do was block. If i even began to pull back my weapon I would be hit before I had time to cancel the attack.

I fail to see how that was my fault at the time (this occurred some time ago) since even though I was probably a worse player (2hander, for instance) I could indeed block well. Yet anyone who takes the time to learn such a dirty trick can easily destroy anyone who doesn't know how to. And you can only outmaneuver them so much, since they are most likely W keying while you must S key (in combination with A or D) which everyone knows is far slower.

[Elindor]

I guess 1h are meant to be the "paper" to the "scissors" that is 2h, whereas I guess ranged are meant to be the "rock" (since 1h can carry a shield).

The above probably explains some trends I've noticed on the duel server; 1h players in the 1600-1700 range (like me) often can hang with 1h/pole players up to 1800+, but routinely get their butts handed to them by 2h players in the 1500-1600 range. And the 1800+ 2h players are nearly a guaranteed loss, barring obscene luck with chambers/kicks/etc.

2h historically would be the choice of duelists...yes.
And like you said - 1h/shield has a much easier time living through tough situations in a battle than 2h.

[Phew]

Basically the reason why I see it warrants potential removal is when fighting someone who has mastered the art of exploiting 2h, like cyranule. Even though i was a fellow longsworder at the time, and most definitely had more wpf (not that it really increases speed all that drastically) he was able to swing nonstop and all I could do was block. If i even began to pull back my weapon I would be hit before I had time to cancel the attack.

I fail to see how that was my fault at the time (this occurred some time ago) since even though I was probably a worse player (2hander, for instance) I could indeed block well. Yet anyone who takes the time to learn such a dirty trick can easily destroy anyone who doesn't know how to. And you can only outmaneuver them so much, since they are most likely W keying while you must S key (in combination with A or D) which everyone knows is far slower.

When decent players (and Jona is way better than decent) fight one of these 2h abusers and can't even get a swing off with an equal-speed weapon, something is terribly wrong. It should take a huge (15+) weapon speed differential or a player with severely impaired motor skills for someone to be able to consistently chain attacks against them. I imagine a lot of novice players have this happen to them and just think this game is dumb then quit. That's not good for anyone.

[CrazyCracka420]

Nerf inverted mouse attack direction, buff normal mouse attack direction

[Macropus]

Nerf inverted mouse attack direction, buff normal mouse attack direction

No never, l2block nub!
In fact, it's much harder to perform chamber blocks with inverted attacks than with normal, so I guess it's quite balanced overall. (No it's not, but I want to keep my power)

[Tydeus]

One thing at a time. I'm not going to get into stuff about hilt slashes until after the patch with the animation optimizations.

[Jona]

One thing at a time. I'm not going to get into stuff about hilt slashes until after the patch with the animation optimizations.

What's that, you want to discuss other topics? Well how would you like to shed some light on this long-rumored wpf patch?   

When decent players (and Jona is way better than decent) fight one of these 2h abusers and can't even get a swing off with an equal-speed weapon, something is terribly wrong. It should take a huge (15+) weapon speed differential or a player with severely impaired motor skills for someone to be able to consistently chain attacks against them. I imagine a lot of novice players have this happen to them and just think this game is dumb then quit. That's not good for anyone.

I agree 100%. I bought this game for a friend since I am trying to get more of my friends to play, and he stopped after only a few days. He was pretty poor at manual blocking, but had a good grasp on the game mechanics so I told him to go shielder. After the few days he told me was going to quit and upon asking why he said he just couldn't understand how he was supposed to ever win against a twohander. Granted, he was only like level 18, a shielder, and a noob, that has to say something if he picked up on that OPness so quickly. I intentionally left him in the dark about which class = best class but he still noticed it. So I decided to inquire further and he said that the specific problem was that they could often swing so fast he couldn't get an attack in at all. At first I figured he just didn't have high enough wpf, was maybe using a slow weapon, or was just facing off against a bunch of katana/hbs/ls spammers, so I dueled him. He said I must suck since I couldn't do it. I asked him what exactly these 2handers did and he told me "they kinda hunch over, looking like they are trying to suck my dick, then as soon as their swing starts I get hit." So we've lost at least one player to this... hopefully he was the only unlucky one to fall victim to this at such a low level. He shall be missed.... 

(click to show/hide)

rip in peace, friend

[Rhaelys]

I asked him what exactly these 2handers did and he told me "they kinda hunch over, looking like they are trying to suck my dick, then as soon as their swing starts I get hit."

So good.