Poll

Which of the following best expresses what you think...

Yes to both proposals.
79 (59.4%)
Yes to proposal #1.
21 (15.8%)
Yes to proposal #2.
19 (14.3%)
No to both proposals.
10 (7.5%)
Only under certain conditions.
4 (3%)

Total Members Voted: 132

Author Topic: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix  (Read 7969 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Tydeus

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1422
  • Infamy: 351
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Item re-unbalance guy
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Tydeus
  • IRC nick: Tydeus
Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« on: July 29, 2013, 09:07:15 pm »
+36
We've decided to give the community another opportunity to weigh in on possible gameplay changes, which there are currently two of. But first I'd like to direct your attention to the polearm left-to-right release animation. Were you aware that it was somehow altered? Could you see or feel anything different about it? If so, how do you feel about it? Your response to that should directly affect your response to what lies at the heart of this post.

Right now two-handers require 53.33 % of their (edit: Overhead) release animation's progression to reach a spot capable of hitting a person in front of you. The disgusting thing, is that the polearm animation takes nearly 20% longer than that, and that's assuming two weapons of identical speeds. My proposal is to lessen that gap in the same way I lessened the gap for the polearm left-to-right swing. This would be proposal #1.

Proposal #2 (Credit goes entirely to Urist for this one), is to change the sweetspot for all overheads so that they do 0 damage to players behind you. That is, it still connects with the player and keeps you from hitting someone in front, but you won't be doing full damage to a person behind you simply because of poor implementation by TW.

The first proposal would clearly have a major affect on bi-directional polearms and, if implemented, we would keep a close eye on the effects. It's worth mentioning here though, that the thrusts of such weapons are the most deadly aspects. Rather than making them more deadly(increasing their maximum damage output or likelihood of landing a hit) this only gives them more utility, or easier access to a tool that has always existed. Bi-Directional weapons aren't where they should be, but simply increasing their speed across the board would be the wrong way to address the issue as I don't believe the thrust attacks need such a thing. For these weapons, this fix pinpoints exactly what I see the problem as being, and then addresses the issue.

Update: Decided to go ahead and put my 1h thrust animation fix in as well. This will take a very slight bit of getting used to, but it will allow you to use the full length of the thrust. Before my fix(what we currently have on the servers), by the time the 1h thrust was all the way extended, you would have already left the sweet spot and would now only be doing 50% damage. This is why the 1h thrust was so poor. When I was testing, after I got used to it (took about 10 seconds), it felt really good. This is one of those things where even though the "frame data" shows 1h thrust as having something like +40 range, in practice it was more like +10 because anything after that falls outside the sweet spot.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 05:58:22 pm by Tydeus »
chadz> i wouldnt mind seeing some penis on my character

Offline Malaclypse

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1299
  • Infamy: 146
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni.
    • View Profile
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2013, 09:12:27 pm »
0
I have to say that although I've used polearms quite a bit, and I knew about the change, I didn't really notice any greater effectiveness or difference in the kleft to right swing. Can only approved, yes to both suggestions.
You think you're pretty smart with your dago mustache and your greasy hair.

Offline Paul

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Renown: 1879
  • Infamy: 442
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • ball bounce boss
    • View Profile
  • IRC nick: Urist
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 09:12:44 pm »
+2
Proposal 2 is none. I already committed that change because I think it is a good one. Unless one of the overlords intervenes it stays.

Offline Haboe

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1090
  • Infamy: 331
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Born with a shield on my back. Difficult birth.
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Mercenaries
  • Game nicks: Merc_Haboe
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 09:13:25 pm »
0
Yes to both, polearm left to right used to be pretty crappy if not completely useless.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Rhaelys

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 509
  • Infamy: 47
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Chaos
  • Game nicks: Rhaelys_BlockLeft_of_Chaos
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2013, 09:15:36 pm »
+5
I'm glad to see that polearm animations are being improved. Even though I rage-specced to scum 2H, I can say that the left-to-right polearm swing change was very welcome while I was still polearm and I cannot fathom that the proposed polearm overhead fix would be bad for the mod in any way.

And if you are calling for Tydeus' head, I direct your attention to the English Bill and Swiss Halberd, two polearms that are currently complete shit.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Quote from: Uumdi
sweet of you guys to celebrate my birthday
wait you're talking about that devils lettuce arent you, god damnit
Quote from: Kreczor
yo you want to burn some sweet romaine tonight?
Quote from: Uumdi
yeah i smoke that dirty green shit fuck iceberg

Offline Necrorave

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 609
  • Infamy: 71
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Who the fuck is this guy?
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Dracul
  • Game nicks: Necrorave and or Cheesus Crust
  • IRC nick: Necrorave
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2013, 09:20:06 pm »
0
Buff Long Voulge.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:25:51 pm by Necrorave »

Offline karasu

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1751
  • Infamy: 316
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • D̶͎̳͒́͗͋ẹ͕̲̠̳̄̃͂ͤ͑ͮṃ̮͎̗̦̏̿͊ͤi̥̪̼͕ͦ̀̊̐ȗ̘rͩ͋̅̊gͭ̿̋
    • View Profile
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2013, 09:33:36 pm »
+2
visitors can't see pics , please register or login



This would mean to some extra "fluidity" of polearm movements instead of the usual spasm-like swings.

Would it be possible to also edit the way polearms are held? The switched grab on the right-to-left swing is so silly. :F
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:44:16 pm by karasu »

Offline Panos_

  • იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე სტალინი
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 2006
  • Infamy: 885
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop
  • Come and get couched, Turk!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Vyzantion (Palaiologos Era)
  • Game nicks: Panos_the_TurkSlayer
  • IRC nick: THE_PANOS
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2013, 09:44:48 pm »
+3
Can you fix the lolstab aswell??
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline karasu

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1751
  • Infamy: 316
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • D̶͎̳͒́͗͋ẹ͕̲̠̳̄̃͂ͤ͑ͮṃ̮͎̗̦̏̿͊ͤi̥̪̼͕ͦ̀̊̐ȗ̘rͩ͋̅̊gͭ̿̋
    • View Profile
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 09:49:09 pm »
0
lolstab is something typical from 2h, the serpent movement around everything.

Offline Panos_

  • იოსებ ბესარიონის ძე სტალინი
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 2006
  • Infamy: 885
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop
  • Come and get couched, Turk!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Vyzantion (Palaiologos Era)
  • Game nicks: Panos_the_TurkSlayer
  • IRC nick: THE_PANOS
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 09:50:56 pm »
+2
lolstab is something typical from 2h, the serpent movement around everything.

yeah but it`s getting tiring to see everything else getting fixed but still letting the most retarded animation unfixed/untouched.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline San

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Renown: 1456
  • Infamy: 143
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • 1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
    • View Profile
    • My youtube Brawl videos
  • Faction: Chaos
  • Game nicks: San_of_Chaos
  • IRC nick: San
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 09:51:13 pm »
+2
Sure. The overheads for polearms aren't so great.

Any way to fix 100+ length 1hers' overheads from bouncing on the ground so much?

Offline Swaggart

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 481
  • Infamy: 92
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 10:04:26 pm »
+2
Why not fix all overheads so they don't get stuck on something behind them? It's really annoying, especially if you have a two directional weapon to be left open to attack simply because someone stood a little to close behind you, which is 99.9% of the time out of your control.

Offline Phew

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 775
  • Infamy: 132
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Phew_XVI
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 10:05:07 pm »
+2
Seems good to me. The crappiest animations have always been (in no particular order):
-Polearm left swing
-Polearm overhead
-1h right swing
-1h thrust

This appears to address the first two; how about the last two? Specifically, 1h thrust shouldn't glance so readily at short-medium range, and its hitbox is somewhere about a foot to the right of the actual animation. 1h right swing has a huge delay and glances on anyone much past your 1 o'clock.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:09:59 pm by Phew »

Offline Tydeus

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1422
  • Infamy: 351
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Item re-unbalance guy
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Tydeus
  • IRC nick: Tydeus
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2013, 10:05:46 pm »
+6
Can you fix the lolstab aswell??
I noticed today that the 2h thrust is vastly different than the other thrusts with how TW chose to implement it. It doesn't have an actual ready animation nor a continue animation(The animation that gets played after an attack if you don't press any keys). Not only that, but the total frame length is much, much shorter than the other animations.

I'll be analyzing the differences more closely in the future to try and figure out if the animation itself is what causes the QQ. In all honesty though, I find myself in doubt.

Sure. The overheads for polearms aren't so great.

Any way to fix 100+ length 1hers' overheads from bouncing on the ground so much?
Yes, but I'm not sure the change would result solely in desirable consequences.

Seems good to me. The crappiest animations have always been (in no particular order):
-Polearm left swing
-Polearm overhead
-1h right swing
-1h thrust

This seems to address the first two; how about the last two?
I have an idea for a very subtle fix to the 1h right swing. Again, thrusts as a whole are much, much more complicated.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:54:36 pm by Tydeus »
chadz> i wouldnt mind seeing some penis on my character

Offline Phew

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 775
  • Infamy: 132
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Phew_XVI
Re: Possible Polearm Overhead Sweetspot Fix
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2013, 10:13:49 pm »
+3
Again, thrusts as a whole are much, much more complicated.

Can you tweak the sweetspot variable so it peaks at a shorter distance for 1h thrust? Nothing like stabbing someone in facehug range with a short sword (it glances...) then they point blank lolstab you with a greatsword for full damage.

Tydeus, glad to see you looking more closely at the animations. cmp has always made posts indicating that animation sweetspots are the same for all three weapon types, when gameplay obviously refutes that.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:19:45 pm by Phew »