cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: CaptainQuantum on April 29, 2011, 09:03:52 pm
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I would like to start by saying no trolls, those who think archery is OP (post or pre patch) get out since you are probably trolls who think it's OP because you don't carry a shield. Also I am unsure of whether it is worse or not, since it could be down to arrow speed changes throwing my timings off.
Now we are past logistics lets state the issues, I have noticed the longbow is way worse than it was pre patch, yeah it now has pierce damage but its damage has been reduced from 27(ish)C to 24P so on low armoured targets I am doing worse. It can now take an extra arrow (3 up from 2) to kill another archer now, I also have noticed not much increased damage on heavier armoured targets too. Another trade off to take the longbow even further back is the accuracy reduction, it's now 5 points less accurate than the warbow or strong bow. So it has similar damage to the warbow for targets archers go for as the warbow now, yet it is much slower.
The final killing blow to the longbow is the 2 slot component of it, 2 slots for bow 2 sets for arrows and none for melee. The longbow does so little damage compared to the speed there is no way of killing a target before it reaches you now, you will get 2 arrows off before they reach you, with strafing you probably will not get one on target. Once they have reached you your dead since you have no melee now. This makes archery with a longbow impossible in battles.
Thanks for reading and I encourage other peoples opinions even if they don't agree with mine, (as long as they're from people who have tried the longbow themselves in battle servers and not just saw 4 archers and gone "OMG I should totally be able to p0wn all those 4 archers because I am a two hander". ).
From my more recent post but for arguments sake I will put it here too:
Using Warband damage calculations with chadz' soak factors and reduction factors I have just shown algebreically and graphically to myself that the longbow never wins on damage, for ANY armour type. The calculations are somewhat complex but I will explain as best as I can here.
The amount of damage done follows the equation D=(d - s*a)(1-(r*a/100))*p where d is the base damage per shot, s is the soak factor, r is the reduction factor and p is some probabilistic modifier. p is probabilistic but same so it can be cancelled on either side. For the calculation of d I assumed bow base damage since power draw is not constant for all and will assist the warbow more than the longbow. Setting the different equations equal to one another for the warbow and longbow equivalents reveals complex solutions, i.e they don't intersect in the [real] plane. That was some A-level maths about intersection points so forgive me, what it basically means is that the longbow never breaks even with the warbow for ANY armour value since the damage drops to zero before the longbow can catch up. I used a graphical calculator to verify this, although most of you won't own one so you will have to take my word for it there. If my damage calculations (based on how they are calculated in native) are correct then the warbow is always better for damage. I would encourage people who can to verify this, because I am not superhuman I can make mistakes.
With this calculation, provided I have made no error, and that crpg uses this equation which was used in Warband Native, there is no dispute about whether the longbow is internally balanced with the longbow, the longbow simply loses on every stat including damage.
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Totally agree with this.
Longbow is completely useless in comparison to other bows.
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Forgive me if I'm passing false rumors (not at home to test) but I heard that there are some 0 slot 1-h melee weapons around. If so that should at least provide you some option to defend yourself in melee.
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Daggers only, so no parry. Not exactly defense. Without parry there is not even a chance of surviving. Also someone reduced my awesomebar by 1 point, clearly there was a two hander spammer here (by the way not all 2 hands are spammers or noobs, most understand they should get killed by archers) .
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Ok, playing an archer since day one of playing Warband, getting different knowledge from archers within the Caravan Guild and having used the longbow 90% of my foot archer life I can say that I cannot see the damage reduction, I find that to unarmoured targets, I couldn't one shot them to begin with, I found that I had to hit twice. Yes the accuracy of bows shouldn't have been changed in my opinion, as I have said, it has forced people to use one of three bows but I do not believe that it is worse than pre-patch.
My accuracy has been fairly stable, although the reduction to the longbow is still a mystery to me, I am just pleased that the fine longbow still holds the accuracy of a basic one pre-patch while the damage difference between piercing and cutting much improves how I play.
I think your timings are out if I am honest because for the first couple of rounds I found myself shooting well over the heads of targets before I realised that the arrow speeds were increased, dramatically changing the way I play.
I don't like having to run around with a one handed weapon, but I do feel if you're using a longbow, you pick your shots, you will hit 90% of your arrows (15 bodkins) and I have never found myself at a lost where I can't just shotgun the enemy away unless they have 10 athletics and are basically lagging like mad or similar.
I am not a good player, I am not well known but I can safely say that the longbow is not worse than pre-patch, besides the increase in 2 speed means that it is finally more viable as it means that you can use it with lower wpf because it is slightly faster, it's also proved to me that the community with the right evidence can convince the devs to look into these things and change them to suit the game play.
Try it a little longer or change to the warbow, it'll grow on you or I will be one of the few again who enjoy the pleasure of the relaxed longbow :)
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Longbow is balanced with the new nerfs, it makes sense that strongest bow can actually hurt tincans, which is the point, its not designed as anti-archer, but as anti-tincan. Will be using it a lot with 1 large bag of normal arrows (30) and spiked mace (1 slot), but strong bow and khergit bow still have their place with 1 slot, use them with more ammo or with better 2her, and warbow's decent cut damage and shoot speed balanced by 2 slots, so they each have their place and uses. Like how the short bow seems a little faster now so actually worth using now and again. Overall balanced nerf and enjoying archery.
Sidenote: I was testing damage with clanmate with longbow and at point blank range shooting straight into midsection the arrow passed through his body 3 times before i aimed higher and hit him in the neck. Minor bug that probably needs fixing.
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the higher the base damage, the lower is the effect of the accuracy stat on precision(hardcoded). longbow base damage got lowered(changed to pierce), that's why accu had to be lowered too.
the more you know...
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Perhaps you are right, although the speed increase is not all that welcome to me, I liked it's slow but heavy damage. I think the accuracy needs to meet that of the warbow. I agree that probably most of my issues lie with increased arrow speeds, I normally get 3:1 KD ratios on siege but post patch it's gone down to as little as 1 kill per match. I will play a little more tomorrow and hope I improve.
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the higher the base damage, the lower is the effect of the accuracy stat on precision(hardcoded). longbow base damage got lowered(changed to pierce), that's why accu had to be lowered too.
the more you know...
I guess that's why you have the little developer tags, no longer a mystery although the accuracy did get reduced after I went to bed at half 5 GMT+1 and logging on again at 4pm GMT+1... It was reduced by 1 in that time.
Also the reason that the speed was increased to 50 was to rid most people with a reasonable amount of wpf of the release flaw, it constantly had a delay before release because of this and the reticle would go start to waver before you let off a shot, now with 50 you can have 90-100 wpf and it won't do that, it's needed.
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Would be nice to allow a 1 hand (which could manual block just has terrible damage) take no slots, I just need something to parry with because right now when someone reaches me, its either die or run like a coward. I can't use 1 set of arrows because loomed bodkins only give 17 now, it wouldn't be too nice to throw away a loomed item either.
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Also the reason that the speed was increased to 50 was to rid most people with a reasonable amount of wpf of the release flaw, it constantly had a delay before release because of this and the reticle would go start to waver before you let off a shot, now with 50 you can have 90-100 wpf and it won't do that, it's needed.
I was unaware of this, makes sense though so thanks for telling me of this.
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Your fairy weapon is fine people gettin kills and shot to peices on the battle server as allways still cant complete a swing without gettin 2-3 shot by fairy´s... if im lucky i get to enter battle with 10 hp out my 75. that or im dead from a rain of arrows.... :(
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Your fairy weapon is fine people gettin kills and shot to peices on the battle server as allways still cant complete a swing without gettin 2-3 shot by fairy´s... if im lucky i get to enter battle with 10 hp out my 75. that or im dead from a rain of arrows.... :(
Let me guess, two hander who refuses to equip a shield and expects that his class doesn't get owned by archers. Well I have news for you sir, all classes have something they are weak against for archery its shielders and cavalry. For you it's ranged, so don't complain buy a shield or learn to dodge. By the way thanks for the awesome bar increment whoever gave it, it's now back to normal.
On a sidenote: Thanks for restoring the old longbow image, my longbow looks like a long bow when it's in hand now.
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Let me guess, two hander who refuses to equip a shield and expects that his class doesn't get owned by archers. Well I have news for you sir, all classes have something they are weak against for archery its shielders and cavalry. For you it's ranged, so don't complain buy a shield or learn to dodge. By the way thanks for the awesome bar increment whoever gave it, it's now back to normal.
I just gave u +
Anyways think what you will but
1st I have a shield.
2nd I cant use it because my weapon takes up both my hands while weilding it
3rd How should i be able to both dogde and parry and do footwork while in melee while u rain arrows on me be it team mates or foes.
4th I think archery is fine the way it is and think its silly u want the dmg and the ability to snipe people since i think that archery should only be and support role not and kdr monster class since it would just make c-RPG like native with every1 rolling archers.
Sry if i stepped on your toes m8 but its the same each day some legolass wants moar and moar buff to hes archer it just gets old :rolleyes:
Coldblood_revanent still tops the scoreboard on the battle server form time to times along with jambi so i geuss u just gotta pratice if u think archery is ohh so bad :lol:
Anyways we will never get along i geuss no point to continue this conversation. :wink:
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Coldblood_Revenant is amazing, I think he is far past 31 though, so his build is going to be beyond that of a normal archer, sorry for misunderstanding you. I though you were a 2hand rager. Well the best thing to kill archery in melee is move irratically around the person you are fighting, no self respecting archer will fire into melee like that. I am not a legolas asking for more buffs, I was fine with archery pre patch, it's just the longbow was crap pre patch but I still did amazingly with it. It's just now the longbow seems worse to me, but I think it is now resolved, it is not my skill thats the problem, just the new arrow speed is messing me up. I was not asking for a major buff, I was asking mainly whether the arrow speed was causing other longbowmen to be like me.
Thanks for the +1, I apolagise for mistaking you for a 2 hander, it's just they irritate me by saying continually that archery is OP. The archers you see topping the boards are rare, I rarely did it pre patch and I was rather good with the longbow prepatch with high KD ratios, it was just slow to get kills and I rarely died. You are correct about range spam but it's mainly down to numbers, 1 on 1 longbow archery is terrible up to now.
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Would be nice to allow a 1 hand (which could manual block just has terrible damage) take no slots, I just need something to parry with because right now when someone reaches me, its either die or run like a coward. I can't use 1 set of arrows because loomed bodkins only give 17 now, it wouldn't be too nice to throw away a loomed item either.
There are. Wooden stick and sickle.
And tbh I find that quite silly - you will still run like a coward until you can find a real weapon, but you have lesser chances to be killed, and then when you have wasted your arrows you pick up a flamberge from the ground.
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I geuss thats the trade off for being able to kill people without taken place in the heat of battle and standing safe behind seige shields walls roofs team mates ect ect..
Now i seen some sick players using 1h without shield gone on rampage so i geuss its not that all bad u just gotta adapt use the steel pick for great awesomeness or elite simitar :wink:
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Ah, thanks for that, due to the website not displaying how many slots each item takes I would of had to try all of the low end stuff for. I will just parry until a team mate helps out, running feels horrible to me. Although you can't exactly blame those who do...
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Daggers only, so no parry. Not exactly defense. Without parry there is not even a chance of surviving. Also someone reduced my awesomebar by 1 point, clearly there was a two hander spammer here (by the way not all 2 hands are spammers or noobs, most understand they should get killed by archers) .
There is the hammer! I am using that on horseback so I can carry two lots of bolts with my light crossbow, or so I can use two lots of bolts with my "Arbalest".
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There is the hammer! I am using that on horseback so I can carry two lots of bolts with my light crossbow, or so I can use two lots of bolts with my "Arbalest".
Try the iberian mace its good fun or steel pick for ouchy dmg :D
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Try the iberian mace its good fun or steel pick for ouchy dmg :D
0 slots?
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Just picked up the wooden stick for parrying, I think the new longbow could be reduced in usefullness by my current build. I have a 18/18 build with 150 WPF and 6 PD, perhaps the new longbow favours a higher PD build, which is what I was planning anyway. If anyone could confirm this it would be appreciated.
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Coldblood_revanent still tops the scoreboard on the battle server form time to times along with jambi so i geuss u just gotta pratice if u think archery is ohh so bad :lol:
While this is true Phyrex was also doing 64-5 and such prepatch as a 2hander which hints to the fact that 2handers are fine and you just need to learn to play. No? :)
On Topic. The longbow seems fine, i just think it might be a little too far from the warbow on damage so that warbow does superior damage on all but the highest armored targets, but i cant actually prove that.
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Mullerian seems to of mirrored my thoughts on the longbow, I think it's too far from the warbow on everything but the heaviest, I think it's warbow>longbow for cloth to mail then longbow wins on plate. I think it should be more longbow owns the warbow on plate and mail, warbow wins for cloth to medium. Like Mullerian said though this would need to be tested. He is also right on the Phyrex thing, Revenant is good has an amazing build but doesn't come close to Phyrex, Phyrex has probably a decent build throws in a little manual blocking and a large amount of feinting and ridicules the scoreboards, I am in no way doubting Phyrex's skill hes bloody brilliant, but his scores are probably not justified solely on his skill more due to the 2H being a little too powerful pre-patch.
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Mullerian seems to of mirrored my thoughts on the longbow, I think it's too far from the warbow on everything but the heaviest, I think it's warbow>longbow for cloth to mail then longbow wins on plate. I think it should be more longbow owns the warbow on plate and mail, warbow wins for cloth to medium. Like Mullerian said though this would need to be tested. He is also right on the Phyrex thing, Revenant is good has an amazing build but doesn't come close to Phyrex, Phyrex has probably a decent build throws in a little manual blocking and a large amount of feinting and ridicules the scoreboards, I am in no way doubting Phyrex's skill hes bloody brilliant, but his scores are probably not justified solely on his skill more due to the 2H being a little too powerful pre-patch.
I'm a pure polearm with no points in shield lol (I intend to get points and a good shield next gen though) but I completly agree with you. Warbow is just "the best bow" (how new archers qualify it) cuz like 3/4 of players are in lemellar-to-mail armors but only a small majority is in plate and you rarely see them outside of 5x. So longbow does indeed have a really small window of "being better" than the warbow.
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Damage type makes a difference too though.
Against leather it does 4 less damage than before patch
Against chainmail it does 2 less damage
Against plate it does .5 less damage
But on the hole it doesnt feel good.
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Damage type makes a difference too though.
Against leather it does 4 less damage than before patch
Against chainmail it does 2 less damage
Against plate it does .5 less damage
But on the hole it doesnt feel good.
Hmmm, this does give a little bit more evidence to the longbow being worse... Have you got the forumlae that you used to get this?
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Tzar, this is not a discussion about the warbows or strongbows shooting your sorry ass, this is about the longbow being significantly unbalanced. This is not an archery thread, this is a longbow thread.
To be honest I care little of how often you get shot from the other bows, I only care that the longbow is worse then before (and is rarely if ever shooting you in particular).
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Damage type makes a difference too though.
Against leather it does 4 less damage than before patch
Against chainmail it does 2 less damage
Against plate it does .5 less damage
But on the hole it doesnt feel good.
Im not getting quite the same numbers but it is quite possible my way to calculating it is just plain wrong. So as the Tenne said, how did you arrive at these numbers?
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I think the hotfix renerfed accuracy of archers back to what it was just before the patch, so longbow less useful.
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Longbow is OK, but i still prefer the Strongbow :D
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Let me guess, two hander who refuses to equip a shield and expects that his class doesn't get owned by archers. Well I have news for you sir, all classes have something they are weak against for archery its shielders and cavalry. For you it's ranged, so don't complain buy a shield or learn to dodge. By the way thanks for the awesome bar increment whoever gave it, it's now back to normal.
On a sidenote: Thanks for restoring the old longbow image, my longbow looks like a long bow when it's in hand now.
Not really accurate.
When I'm playing 2h I hate archers. Seems logical. When I'm playing foot shielder I hate archers because there's allways 50 of them camping an unreachable roof, just waiting for a teammate to force you turning your back on them and shoot. Even two archers in a perfectly flat terrain are "impossible" to kill, even with another shielder, unless one of them do an error. When I'm cav I hate archers. They continuously focus me as soon as I enter their not-so-tunnelled vision. Two archers will "allways" kill me (two shots for the horse, one headshot when I'm on the ground).
Basically, whenever I play a pure melee char, archers are my first threat, whether I have a shield or not, I'm slow or not, I'm on a horse or not.
The main problem is that melee don't really become much harder to fight when they are many. Archers become exponentially harder to fight.
On the topic, I noticed that the longbow now actually has the same size, sheated or not. A bunch more people were using it than before.
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Against leather it does 4 less damage than before patch
Against chainmail it does 2 less damage
Against plate it does .5 less damage
If those numbers are true then I am glad I made this post, even though my awesomebar has been raped over the time this thread has been up, if a moderator sees those numbers and can verify them the longbow will get a much deserved buff. I was beginning to believe that it was just my unfamiliarity with the new arrow speed. I would like to know where or how you got those numbers too.
This makes my decision of what to start heirlooming much harder.
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If those numbers are true then I am glad I made this post, even though my awesomebar has been raped over the time this thread has been up, if a moderator sees those numbers and can verify them the longbow will get a much deserved buff. I was beginning to believe that it was just my unfamiliarity with the new arrow speed. I would like to know where or how you got those numbers too.
This makes my decision of what to start heirlooming much harder.
Well the Longbow is still fairly decent. And i did get my first plate wearer going "wtf is up with that bow?" and raging slightly when i told him they changed the bow to piercing. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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Yes I know its decent but with those numbers there is no reason to use the longbow over the warbow, it loses on all stats.
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Did you guys notice that ONLY the Longbow got his pierce damage back? Thats why the stats were altered I believe. In theory Longbows should be more ffective versus tincans now.
But I don't know for sure.
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Did you guys notice that ONLY the Longbow got his pierce damage back? Thats why the stats were altered I believe. In theory Longbows should be more ffective versus tincans now.
But I don't know for sure.
Yes, that was pretty much what the entire discussion was about. Whether the pierce damage is too low or just right when you compare it to the warbow. Would be awesome if we could at least get to know the break even point between the 24 pierce of the longbow and the 29 cut of the warbow, just for arguments sake with the basic arrows as well.
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Using Warband damage calculations with chadz' soak factors and reduction factors I have just shown algebreically and graphically to myself that the longbow never wins on damage, for ANY armour type. The calculations are somewhat complex but I will explain as best as I can here.
The amount of damage done follows the equation D=(d - s*a)(1-(r*a/100))*p where d is the base damage per shot, s is the soak factor, r is the reduction factor and p is some probabilistic modifier. p is probabilistic but same so it can be cancelled on either side. For the calculation of d I assumed bow base damage since power draw is not constant for all and will assist the warbow more than the longbow. Setting the different equations equal to one another for the warbow and longbow equivalents reveals complex solutions, i.e they don't intersect in the [real] plane. That was some A-level maths about intersection points so forgive me, what it basically means is that the longbow never breaks even with the warbow for ANY armour value since the damage drops to zero before the longbow can catch up. I used a graphical calculator to verify this, although most of you won't own one so you will have to take my word for it there. If my damage calculations (based on how they are calculated in native) are correct then the warbow is always better for damage. I would encourage people who can to verify this, because I am not superhuman I can make mistakes.
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Using Warband damage calculations with chadz' soak factors and reduction factors I have just shown algebreically and graphically to myself that the longbow never wins on damage, for ANY armour type. The calculations are somewhat complex but I will explain as best as I can here.
The amount of damage done follows the equation D=(d - s*a)(1-(r*a/100))*p where d is the base damage per shot, s is the soak factor, r is the reduction factor and p is some probabilistic modifier. p is probabilistic but same so it can be cancelled on either side. For the calculation of d I assumed bow base damage since power draw is not constant for all and will assist the warbow more than the longbow. Setting the different equations equal to one another for the warbow and longbow equivalents reveals complex solutions, i.e they don't intersect in the [real] plane. That was some A-level maths about intersection points so forgive me, what it basically means is that the longbow never breaks even with the warbow for ANY armour value since the damage drops to zero before the longbow can catch up. I used a graphical calculator to verify this, although most of you won't own one so you will have to take my word for it there. If my damage calculations (based on how they are calculated in native) are correct then the warbow is always better for damage. I would encourage people who can to verify this, because I am not superhuman I can make mistakes.
Now that's what I call proof. :D
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It would be nice to see a some digits (numbers) as result.
For example some combinations of bow+arrows vs 20\40\60\80 armor.
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Well the whole problem is that they don't have numerical results, they are complex, for my calcultion they intersect at 0.3368421053-3.226895286i and 0.3368421052+3.226895286i. As you can see they are complex, so they never intersect, the warbow does more damage for all values of armour. I have just been playing around with the damage of the longbow and you don't get an improvement over the warbow in damage until you have 28 pierce, thats before PD calculation too since that will favour the warbow even further.
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Well, suppose you want to kill an enemy with negative HP, the longbow is better...
Are you sure about the formula ? If not, maybe we should gather raw info and make some interpolation out of it (so good to meet other people with decent math levels :o) ) . But I don't even know how to gather precise info in this mod QQ
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I am talking to an admin on IRC, my equations for native do not apply completely to crpg, cmp changed the coding a little. But my calculations are pretty close. It turns out the longbow wins for very heavy armours (plate) but not enough to justify balance. So the longbow may get a buff.
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Sidenote: I was testing damage with clanmate with longbow and at point blank range shooting straight into midsection the arrow passed through his body 3 times before i aimed higher and hit him in the neck. Minor bug that probably needs fixing.
Experienced the same thing. Seems the developers have been fiddling around again with the hitboxes......*sigh*
Shooting straight thru people got worse now. The arrows fly thru all body parts, except for the arms and necks.
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BTW, yes, we are testing new bows a little on a duel server.
And very skilled (human skill) archer with good cRPG skill (WPF) missed me many times.
(both players standing still - not moving)
It looks like arrow flying trough the model.
And even on the battle server many many arrows what must hit me (as it was always) just missed me,
but they flying directly to me - but didn't hit me.
It's not for Longbow IMO, it's for all bows.
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I have also noticed I am missing a lot of body shots.
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I have also noticed I am missing a lot of body shots.
Me also, with the sniper crossbow. But it could be me. :lol:
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I just got shot by 2 arrows from a longbow have 75 hp and had 56 body armor both arrows where in the body section one chest and 1 in arm..
Happy now???? u got your Counterstrike now Sssh it all rdy and be happy..
/end thread
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Tzar it's been stated many times, this thread is not about archery balance, it's about the internal balance of the longbow, as it turns out it's nowhere close to balance with my model and with the true model with crpg damage equations. So stop complaining about archery here, make your own thread on this board for that. It is not balanced I have shown it mathematically with an approximation (the native equations were the only ones I could find) and the admins have verified my approximation with crpg equations which are slightly different to native ones. Not thread over, if it shows it's not balanced in the Mathematics, it's not balanced. You probably just got hit by that p (the probability factor), which maximises damage.
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It's not different from native. the real native calc is just different from what people thought them to be earlier.
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It is different from native, I was talking to someone on IRC about it and they gave me Cmp's revised equations for crpg. I just looked through them and they follow the same pattern as mine, just there are random elements added to the soak and reduction factors aswel.
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i wanna be a longbowman next gen. but is it really wort it as a 10k+ armor piercing bitch with a longbow?
and what are the new heirloombonuses of the longbow?
thx
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i wanna be a longbowman next gen. but is it really wort it as a 10k+ armor piercing bitch with a longbow?
Happy Goretooth hunting.
I say yes, just you will be loved in large servers and not needed too much in small ones.
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you spoke to me. look at the irc nick in my profile. again, damage calc in crpg is not different from native. its hardcoded.
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Ah well I noticed in the equations you gave, probability plays out on soak factors and reduction factors too, whereas ones posted on the Native forums do not. It could just be that the probability factor has been permuted around and interpreted differently, which is likely to be the case. So they are the same, but when you were talking to me you seemed like the equation set you had was different to mine, probably because the ones I found weren't entirely complete. I took the ones I had as the ones hard-coded, I guess they weren't sorry for the confusion.
So more on topic, are there planned changes to buff the longbow?
And sorry for not recognising you, didn't know there was a display for IRC nickname, have only just started using it for crpg.
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I doubt that the formular in the Native forum predicted the use of the e-function for the reduce calc. Do you have a link? Longbow +2p +1 accu next patch.
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Heres the link, http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=137021.0. I only just realised it was you who posted this.
You did use the probability factor here, but I omitted it since it's the same for both sides (cancelation of a common variable if some non-mathematicians are still reading).
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I posted this back in the days based on my tests. It still fits rather well altho there are mistakes in it. The formulars we got now is taken from the (reconstructed) actual code.
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I knew those equations would be approximations, but also knew they would be very good approximations. They served their purpose well it seems, so I must thank you for both sets of equations now.
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I doubt that the formular in the Native forum predicted the use of the e-function for the reduce calc. Do you have a link? Longbow +2p +1 accu next patch.
Yes! Thank you!
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As someone who only plays archer on the side, and usually plays 2-hander or cavalry, I approve of longbow buffs. Let's face it, the longbow was more of a novelty weapon: hopefully now it will actually have a place on the battlefield as the anti-armor weapon. (Whereas the other bows are more balanced toward killing other archers or softer targets).
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How do you guys take measurements and figures?
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Atm Khergit or strongbow archers. Can draw and release there arrow just as fast for the longbow to release the arrow only.Also sometimes the Longbow wont release the arrow at all, or you need to doucle tab your left mouse button for it to release.. and hopefully still be a little accurate. But usually i will need to draw my arrow again. I have ping 24-30, so latency cant be the problem. And then there's also a huge chance the arrow would jsut simple skip thru the chest or head. Or skip thru the chest and hit the upper arm or something.
Right now the only 100% chance to hit someone is when the arrow lands into the belly or groin.
Also Warbow is still much much more valiable then Longbow is. Warbow shoots faster, and has a smaller crosshair. And most of the times it takes exact the same amount of arrows compared to a longbow, to kill a medium armored target. Not sure if 6PD is worth the costs of attribute/skill points
Tested this on the duel server. Test it yourself.
The Longbow is way to slow, it leaves you very vulnarable.... and its to inaccurate to actually snipe with.
Id say, if you want to be a ranged... get a normal crossbow. It reloads super fast has good accuracy. And you can easly pick of archers with it in 2 shots, and reload behind cover. It also doesnt take too much strenght to use or Powerdraw, so you will have plenty points left to raise Agility, wich helps with Runspeed,reload time, Swing speed etc. Or start heirlooming a Strong bow/Khergit and start hoarding Powerdraw, too make up in damage, but you will be very slow.
I had a messed up build prepatch as an archer. I had 25 Agility and 0 athletics. I ran as fast as a previous archer with 18 agi and 6 athletics, too give you an example
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I just got shot by 2 arrows from a longbow have 75 hp and had 56 body armor both arrows where in the body section one chest and 1 in arm..
Happy now???? u got your Counterstrike now Sssh it all rdy and be happy..
/end thread
This my friend is called pure BS!
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Well, congratulations on the alleged increase in the longbow, I am happy that this has come about, it will mean that at least one of my heirlooms will not be completely useless to me from now on!
I'll trust you on your figures but some proper full equations would be good imho so that people can see exactly what you typed in to get those answers, I for one have a graphical calculator and would like to see what you got... graphically.
I will continue to use the Fine longbow as that's what the bog-standard one "next patch" whenever that will be, will be so, I really do think I will start to enjoy the whole longbow archery again!
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i think they should give the longbow just a bit more damage to improve...well damage. because it was THE strongest bow out there and i think it's true to say it isn't that precies, because i'm doing archery in RL myself and a lonbow doesn't draw as smooth as for example a horsebow like the strong,Khergit or nomadbow. and a longbow requires a lot of strength to draw back. so that explains the slow speed of the bow. so the only loggical think to buff is damage.
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Here are the ones I used (as posted earlier), as Ulrist said they are experimental and only approximations, but as Ulrist verified they are close to the real thing, so for graphical stuff here they are "D=(d - s*a)(1-(r*a/100))*p where d is the base damage per shot, s is the soak factor, r is the reduction factor and p is some probabilistic modifier". The real ones are slightly different, they have the proportionalities pretty close, these don't overlap at the current 24p damage, but with the real ones there is an overlap on very high armours I believe. I haven't done calculations with the real equations now though since the longbow is already being fixed, I may sit down and do some maths with them if anyone requests though. But for now I have vector calculus to do since I have some university exams coming up soon, so these ones provided will be all for now, will be back in a couple of hours.
I best leave some assistance here on how to find these s and r values too, they can be found in your module.ini for crpg, I will post them here anyway
armor_soak_factor_against_cut = 0.8
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_cut = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt = 0.75 .
On my method, I just worked out d for each bow, substituted the respective values of s and r for each bow then set them equal to one another to find the break even point, my findings with these equations were that there wasn't a break even point (you get complex solutions). So with a graphical calculator you can see this without the whiteboard I filled with simultaneous quadratic equations. [Without the fun though] I must be clear that these are approximate formulae, the real ones do have an overlap, I only used these because I couldn't find the hard coded ones, they are a reasonable indicator though, just to give respect to Ulrist for looking into this with hard coded equations.
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I tihnk they are planning to make a new bow. aka flavour of the month. Yumi Bow....
So basicly, they rather add something new, then to fix something old
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@CaptainQuantum:
The damage of projectile also depends on the projectile speed. In the module.ini file there is also a switch that determines if this speed bonus scales linearly or quadratically. It has a significant effect on the damage, especially if it scales with power of 2. The bigger bows have a higher shot speed. Another parameter is the air viscosity which slows projectiles down. This is responsible for the damage reduction over distance.
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@CaptainQuantum:
The damage of projectile also depends on the projectile speed. In the module.ini file there is also a switch that determines if this speed bonus scales linearly or quadratically. It has a significant effect on the damage, especially if it scales with power of 2. The bigger bows have a higher shot speed. Another parameter is the air viscosity which slows projectiles down. This is responsible for the damage reduction over distance.
I'm guessing whether the rain is on or not is the air viscosity in Warband's physics engine. Apparently the rain was always on, which may or may not have been fixed, it was day on the battle server yesterday.
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@CaptainQuantum:
The damage of projectile also depends on the projectile speed. In the module.ini file there is also a switch that determines if this speed bonus scales linearly or quadratically. It has a significant effect on the damage, especially if it scales with power of 2. The bigger bows have a higher shot speed. Another parameter is the air viscosity which slows projectiles down. This is responsible for the damage reduction over distance.
I know this, it is in the calculation of d that this appears, however I could not find the equation that filters this in, so unfortunately I had to omit it. But the equation I gave is still valid as long as you filter that into d yourself, since I am still searching for the exact dependance on speed. For crpg it's not entirely a quadratic dependance, but a value of 1.9 is there in the module.ini. My guess is that it scales as speed^1.9, but am unsure of other constants of proportionality, I will search the equations Ulrist supplied me with. However this will have to wait for another hour since I am still doing unviersity work, unless you want to find the circulation around a closed loop of path x^2 + y^2 = a^2 directly and using Stoke's theorem this shall have to wait :).
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Ok vector calculus done, I am back but my brain is tired. Will try to look over the equatiosn to gauge how the 1.9 actually affects the speed damage bonus (whether it is actually speed rating^1.9 or something more subtle). In fact Paul is viewing this thread so could you please explain rather than me reading through the equations since you know a lot more about how this game works than I do.
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@CaptainQuantum:
The damage of projectile also depends on the projectile speed. In the module.ini file there is also a switch that determines if this speed bonus scales linearly or quadratically. It has a significant effect on the damage, especially if it scales with power of 2. The bigger bows have a higher shot speed.
Oh god, no. The ingame speed-damage relation is only there to dermine damage gain or loss if the impact damage differs from the starting damage. That means if the projectile is fired point blank and does not alter its speed on the way, the damage is not related at all to the "shot speed".
However if a projectile is fired over a bigger distance or uphill it loses speed and thus damage. On the other side shooting at a lower target might increase the damage, especially if the initial shot speed is low like it is the case for a throwing weapon.
The ingame calc is based on the concept of kinetic energy(Ekin = 1/2 * m * v^2), that means the damage-speed relation is almost a square(^1.9) one.
Here some examples to make it clear. I'm using the square relation.
impact_speed = k * starting_speed
impact_damage = k^2 * normal_damage
1.
A crossbow is fired point blank at a target. The air friction can't lower the projectile speed significantly. Furthermore there is no height difference between shooter and victim.
k=1
impact_speed = starting_speed
impact_damage = normal_damage
2.
An arrow is fired at a far away target and scores a lucky hit. However the projectile velocity is lowered to 60% by the air friction during the flight.
k=0.6
impact_speed = 0.6 * starting_speed
impact_damage = 0.36 * normal_damage
3. A slow shot speed throwing weapon is thrown down a high wall and hits. The air friction can be neclected because of the short distance but gravity increases the speed greatly compared to the starting speed. It is 80% faster on impact.
k=1.8
impact_speed = 1.8 * starting_speed
impact_damage = 3.24 * normal_damage
4. From the same wall a heavy crossbow is fired. Again, the friction can be neclected but because of the initial high shooting speed of the crossbow, the fall can only increase the projectile speed by a small percentive(1%).
k=1.01
impact_speed = 1.01 * starting_speed
impact_damage = 1.02 * normal_damage
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How do I even make the longbow crosshair tight? i have 8 soon 9 powerdraw, and pre-patch powerdraw made the aim tighter. ??
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How do I even make the longbow crosshair tight? i have 8 soon 9 powerdraw, and pre-patch powerdraw made the aim tighter. ??
This patch reduced the accuracy of the longbow, my crosshair has never been tight for archery, however probably the largest factor will be heirlooming. Power draw works slightly differently now I believe, especially since you have high PD there, if your PD is significantly higher than WPF then the PD becomes less useful per point.
Thanks for explaining that Paul by the way that would of took a considerable amount of time for me to figure out. That model makes complete sense, yet I didn't know whether that would be the case, just out of interest does the code have differential equations for the air resistance or pre calculated values? Rather cool they model increase from gravity too though.
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This patch reduced the accuracy of the longbow, my crosshair has never been tight for archery, however probably the largest factor will be heirlooming. Power draw works slightly differently now I believe, especially since you have high PD there, if your PD is significantly higher than WPF then the PD becomes less useful per point.
Thanks for explaining that Paul by the way that would of took a considerable amount of time for me to figure out. That model makes complete sense, yet I didn't know whether that would be the case, just out of interest does the code have differential equations for the air resistance or pre calculated values? Rather cool they model increase from gravity too though.
Damn, guess my build is FUBAR'd then.
30/12
10 PD
141 wpf
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It may be FUBAR but I am unsure of the ratio of PD to WPF before it goes crazy, perhaps next time go with 1 or 2 PD less and more WPF. I also wish to find out however if WPF is capped at 150, because I seem to remember someone telling me it was.
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It may be FUBAR but I am unsure of the ratio of PD to WPF before it goes crazy, perhaps next time go with 1 or 2 PD less and more WPF. I also wish to find out however if WPF is capped at 150, because I seem to remember someone telling me it was.
I personally do not believe that it is, I, whether or not I just see what I want to see rather than what is actually there, do actually see a difference between a 150 crosshair and a 160 crosshair.
I wish I had screenshots but maybe next gen, if I ever beat the massive exp nerf! :)
Also, thank you to Paul and Quantum for your calculations, I will see if I can automate these but as with Quantum, exams and coursework are getting quite close for University students, I have to finish programming a silly little game for coursework before I can do anything :S
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No problem, they did as they were intended, provoke a buff for the longbow. Also I quite enjoyed doing something with those calculations, it made me feel happy to know I had done something to influence the devs all with the use of some easy mathematics. Thanks goes to Paul mainly, since he took my calculations in to account then checked them with the hard coded ones, hes the one who got this changed and showed me the real equations. So i will use them in the future. As for automating them, one of the pages Paul linked me had some pseudocode on there already, so I can link that here if Paul is ok with that and you want it.
I also just remembered reading that PD has the most effect on accuracy in the first 2 levels above your bow difficulty, which seems very true. Thats why for the next build I am going 24/15, which will give 147 archery WPF and 8 PD. Just for anyone thinking of an archer build but isn't sure.
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i want to be a really strong archer with a large amount of damage, but i don't wanna miss every shot at 20 yards. what build should i take to be own the tincans with my longbow? should i take 18/18, 21/15, 24/12, 27/9, 30/6 or full strength?
got another question :wink:. is the damage of a bow the damage that you would have if you had 0 power draw or the damage that you would have with the requiered PD?
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i want to be a really strong archer with a large amount of damage, but i don't wanna miss every shot at 20 yards. what build should i take to be own the tincans with my longbow? should i take 18/18, 21/15, 24/12, 27/9, 30/6 or full strength?
got another question :wink:. is the damage of a bow the damage that you would have if you had 0 power draw or the damage that you would have with the requiered PD?
hmm the best build for u might be 21/15, but it still takes some arrows to kill a tincan.... i got 24/18, im inaccurate, dmg is OK! but im using the strongbow most of the time
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ok thx i'lll try.
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Berethorn
I made once this character, works good with mw warbow. about 76 raw cut damage with bodkins but still fast and accurate.
Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 21
Hit points: 56
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 7
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 7
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 164
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
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When is this next patch then?
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Just about the damage change 'argument'
Pierce: from 33% to 50% more damage compared to cut on almost all targets
Seems like people can bitch even about their class getting buffed
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...
Pierce: from 33% to 50% more damage compared to cut on almost all targets
...
Why not 100-200%?
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Just about the damage change 'argument'
Pierce: from 33% to 50% more damage compared to cut on almost all targets
Seems like people can bitch even about their class getting buffed
Use the damage calculator, its far less than that, and witht he reduced damage of the longbow from before switching to pierce it actually reduces damagea gainst lightly armored opponents and the real gain in damage is against heavily armored (50+ armor) tanks. Kind of a robin hood story where the peasants get hurt less and rich lords get pummeled.
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Use the damage calculator, its far less than that, and witht he reduced damage of the longbow from before switching to pierce it actually reduces damagea gainst lightly armored opponents and the real gain in damage is against heavily armored (50+ armor) tanks. Kind of a robin hood story where the peasants get hurt less and rich lords get pummeled.
This. It's really not that big of a deal, however, with the less damage against lightly armoured targets (Lightly as in, say, Chain and below), I find that it's best to use a different bow per situation. I've got my 'loomed Warbow and a non 'loomed Longbow, I plan on 'looming the Longbow when I can, because I notice the difference when I attack, say, a Goretooth-esque tincan.
Another thing to keep in mind is that regardless of your bow, you're not as likely to kill them as you are to hamper their progress, as an archer, we should be working to faciliate kills against tin-cans. Our biggest target, is the group of lightly armoured 2h infantry, but if we can help deal some damage against Mr. Black Armour, well.
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Berethorn
I made once this character, works good with mw warbow. about 76 raw cut damage with bodkins but still fast and accurate.
Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 21
Hit points: 56
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 7
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 7
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 164
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
thx! :D
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Here are the ones I used (as posted earlier), as Ulrist said they are experimental and only approximations, but as Ulrist verified they are close to the real thing, so for graphical stuff here they are "D=(d - s*a)(1-(r*a/100))*p where d is the base damage per shot, s is the soak factor, r is the reduction factor and p is some probabilistic modifier". The real ones are slightly different, they have the proportionalities pretty close, these don't overlap at the current 24p damage, but with the real ones there is an overlap on very high armours I believe. I haven't done calculations with the real equations now though since the longbow is already being fixed, I may sit down and do some maths with them if anyone requests though. But for now I have vector calculus to do since I have some university exams coming up soon, so these ones provided will be all for now, will be back in a couple of hours.
I best leave some assistance here on how to find these s and r values too, they can be found in your module.ini for crpg, I will post them here anyway
armor_soak_factor_against_cut = 0.8
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_cut = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt = 0.75 .
On my method, I just worked out d for each bow, substituted the respective values of s and r for each bow then set them equal to one another to find the break even point, my findings with these equations were that there wasn't a break even point (you get complex solutions). So with a graphical calculator you can see this without the whiteboard I filled with simultaneous quadratic equations. [Without the fun though] I must be clear that these are approximate formulae, the real ones do have an overlap, I only used these because I couldn't find the hard coded ones, they are a reasonable indicator though, just to give respect to Ulrist for looking into this with hard coded equations.
Thank you for finding the soak and absorb factors again. Was searching for them for a while.
I frankly have not been shot too much by longbows, so I do not think they are too strong. Hopefully they do ok versus tin cans. If longbow needs a niche, what is the niche for nomad bows? Seems everyone is using strong and warbows.
Paul is as always a helpful source of useful information for the number crunchers and quants. May he never catch the troll information disease plaguing some of the other devs.
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I use a khergit bow, which is like the nomad bow, a lot and it works well if you go 7-8 powerdraw because you've traded lower wpf for more armor penetration and damage ability, while using the khergit is less damage than the warbow/strongbow, it gets the same penetration. To get the same speed you would have had to do 5-6 powerdraw and more weaponmaster into archery but would have less armor penetration ability which is based on a combination of type of damage (cut, pierce) and amount of powerdraw. You could always do longbow with 6 or more powerdraw for optimal armor penetration, but the speed and accuracy is abysmal. Also because youa are using a weaker bow compared to your powerdraw you have a steadier shot with reticules exapnding at a slower rate. So it does have a niche.
I do wish short bow and bow were faster by 5-10 speed so they could have a niche as well, such low damage their main purpose is to annoy and distract enemy meleers at close range, but that requires a little more speed to compensate the low damage if you want people using them at all. People still us hunting/light xbow because the speed difference is actually significant, not sure whyt he same couldn't be true for bow/short bow.
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can someone calculate what the armor quantity is for the best damage with a longbow?(with armor that has ... armor the longbow is at it's best)
or maybe someone can estimate it.
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A longbow - like every other weapon in cRPG - works best against a target with 0 armor.
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shot all farmers you see, hunt them. :twisted:
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ye ok, pretty logic :wink:... but still st what armor type is the longbow the most effective so not at 0 armor but what is it made for? :?
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ye ok, pretty logic :wink:... but still st what armor type is the longbow the most effective so not at 0 armor but what is it made for? :?
By doing pierce damage, it's drop off in damage vs armor is less. Simply by chainmail and past longbow is doing more damage than other bows.
No science cited, sorry :{
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By doing pierce damage, it's drop off in damage vs armor is less. Simply by chainmail and past longbow is doing more damage than other bows.
No science cited, sorry :{
look you get it! but would it be best against leather, chainmail, plate and chainmail armors lamellar, plated armor or full plate?
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Ok, I'll modifiy your question in a way I can answer it properly. What is the minimum target armor level for causing a mundane longbow to deal in average more damage than a mundane warbow with a standard PD 6, 150 wpf archer using normal bodkin arrows?
Currently it's about 26 armor, with the longbow improvements it will start at about 15 armor.
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Sounds good. Though, would it be possible to let us be able to release the arrow before the crosshair starts expanding?
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Currently it's about 26 armor
So pretty much everyone except for people who run around naked or in a peasant shirt
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So pretty much everyone except for people who run around naked or in a peasant shirt
pretty much yeah.
though my lifegoal is still shootiing goretooth in the head and owning him with my longbow.
BTW in real life is bought a bow yesterday!
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Still, atm even against well armored target the warbow has much better DPS if I might use this term here, because of its better rate of fire and accuracy.
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well i'm not sure about that. but even if so that doesn't mean no one will use the longbow anymore. i still see lots of people using it so it's probably not the worst weapon like in ever! :rolleyes: talk to the hand!
lol, but seriously it still is about personal experience. if you rather shoot at 10-20 yards at paople and laughing when you get a headshot while they whine about you in deathchat, take a longbow. but if you are the snipertype archer take warbow. and if you see your bow more as a sideweapon and/or wanna use a big ass melee weapon, take a strong- or khergitbow.
though i'll stick to the longbow.
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well i'm not sure about that. but even if so that doesn't mean no one will use the longbow anymore. i still see lots of people using it so it's probably not the worst weapon like in ever! :rolleyes: talk to the hand!
lol, but seriously it still is about personal experience. if you rather shoot at 10-20 yards at paople and laughing when you get a headshot while they whine about you in deathchat, take a longbow. but if you are the snipertype archer take warbow. and if you see your bow more as a sideweapon and/or wanna use a big ass melee weapon, take a strong- or khergitbow.
though i'll stick to the longbow.
It's not the worst bow, but it's def not a top-tier bow. Even strongbow outclasses it
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@CaptainQuantum the damage reduction varies depending on damage dealt to it.
@Kesh and everyone else wanting proof of the damage I posted...sorry it is too complex and Captain Quantum has only begun to explain it. Dont have time for walls of text.
I once spent many many hours making an excel document that not only calculates damage like this but declares which weapon is best. To reveal my work would be to remove my unfair advantage.
But I will post with some formulas used. Remember these are best fit to a line, but they fit really close as long as you are using damage values that are possible with current weapons in the game.
Cutting modifier of damage to leather = 0.8
Cutting modifier of damage to chain = (Damage/100)+.35
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My BS meter exploded.