Longbow worse than pre-patch?

[CaptainQuantum]

It may be FUBAR but I am unsure of the ratio of PD to WPF before it goes crazy, perhaps next time go with 1 or 2 PD less and more WPF. I also wish to find out however if WPF is capped at 150, because I seem to remember someone telling me it was.

[Tennenoth]

It may be FUBAR but I am unsure of the ratio of PD to WPF before it goes crazy, perhaps next time go with 1 or 2 PD less and more WPF. I also wish to find out however if WPF is capped at 150, because I seem to remember someone telling me it was.

I personally do not believe that it is, I, whether or not I just see what I want to see rather than what is actually there, do actually see a difference between a 150 crosshair and a 160 crosshair.

I wish I had screenshots but maybe next gen, if I ever beat the massive exp nerf!

Also, thank you to Paul and Quantum for your calculations, I will see if I can automate these but as with Quantum, exams and coursework are getting quite close for University students, I have to finish programming a silly little game for coursework before I can do anything :S

[CaptainQuantum]

No problem, they did as they were intended, provoke a buff for the longbow. Also I quite enjoyed doing something with those calculations, it made me feel happy to know I had done something to influence the devs all with the use of some easy mathematics. Thanks goes to Paul mainly, since he took my calculations in to account then checked them with the hard coded ones, hes the one who got this changed and showed me the real equations. So i will use them in the future. As for automating them, one of the pages Paul linked me had some pseudocode on there already, so I can link that here if Paul is ok with that and you want it.

I also just remembered reading that PD has the most effect on accuracy in the first 2 levels above your bow difficulty, which seems very true. Thats why for the next build I am going 24/15, which will give 147 archery WPF and 8 PD. Just for anyone thinking of an archer build but isn't sure.

[Glyph]

i want to be a really strong archer with a large amount of damage, but i don't wanna miss every shot at 20 yards. what build should i take to be own the tincans with my longbow? should i take 18/18, 21/15, 24/12, 27/9, 30/6 or full strength?

got another question . is the damage of a bow the damage that you would have if you had 0 power draw or the damage that you would have with the requiered PD?

[RagnarLodbroke]

i want to be a really strong archer with a large amount of damage, but i don't wanna miss every shot at 20 yards. what build should i take to be own the tincans with my longbow? should i take 18/18, 21/15, 24/12, 27/9, 30/6 or full strength?

got another question . is the damage of a bow the damage that you would have if you had 0 power draw or the damage that you would have with the requiered PD?

hmm the best build for u might be 21/15, but it still takes some arrows to kill a tincan.... i got 24/18, im inaccurate, dmg is OK! but im using the strongbow most of the time

[Glyph]

ok thx i'lll try.

[Cup1d]

Berethorn

I made once this character, works good with mw warbow. about 76 raw cut damage with bodkins but still fast and accurate.

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 21
Hit points: 56
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 7
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 7
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 164
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

[ToxicKilla]

When is this next patch then?

[Zergmar]

Just about the damage change 'argument'
Pierce: from 33% to 50% more damage compared to cut on almost all targets

Seems like people can bitch even about their class getting buffed

[3ABP]

...
Pierce: from 33% to 50% more damage compared to cut on almost all targets
...

Why not 100-200%?

[Keshian]

Just about the damage change 'argument'
Pierce: from 33% to 50% more damage compared to cut on almost all targets

Seems like people can bitch even about their class getting buffed

Use the damage calculator, its far less than that, and witht he reduced damage of the longbow from before switching to pierce it actually reduces damagea gainst lightly armored opponents and the real gain in damage is against heavily armored (50+ armor) tanks.  Kind of a robin hood story where the peasants get hurt less and rich lords get pummeled.

[PikeDan]

Use the damage calculator, its far less than that, and witht he reduced damage of the longbow from before switching to pierce it actually reduces damagea gainst lightly armored opponents and the real gain in damage is against heavily armored (50+ armor) tanks.  Kind of a robin hood story where the peasants get hurt less and rich lords get pummeled.

This. It's really not that big of a deal, however, with the less damage against lightly armoured targets (Lightly as in, say, Chain and below), I find that it's best to use a different bow per situation. I've got my 'loomed Warbow and a non 'loomed Longbow, I plan on 'looming the Longbow when I can, because I notice the difference when I attack, say, a Goretooth-esque tincan.

Another thing to keep in mind is that regardless of your bow, you're not as likely to kill them as you are to hamper their progress, as an archer, we should be working to faciliate kills against tin-cans. Our biggest target, is the group of lightly armoured 2h infantry, but if we can help deal some damage against Mr. Black Armour, well.

[Glyph]

Berethorn

I made once this character, works good with mw warbow. about 76 raw cut damage with bodkins but still fast and accurate.

Level 31 (8 892 403 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 21
Hit points: 56
Converted: 12
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 7
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 7
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 164
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

thx!

[kongxinga]

Here are the ones I used (as posted earlier), as Ulrist said they are experimental and only approximations, but as Ulrist verified they are close to the real thing, so for graphical stuff here they are "D=(d - s*a)(1-(r*a/100))*p where d is the base damage per shot, s is the soak factor, r is the reduction factor and p is some probabilistic modifier". The real ones are slightly different, they have the proportionalities pretty close, these don't overlap at the current 24p damage, but with the real ones there is an overlap on very high armours I believe. I haven't done calculations with the real equations now though since the longbow is already being fixed, I may sit down and do some maths with them if anyone requests though. But for now I have vector calculus to do since I have some university exams coming up soon, so these ones provided will be all for now, will be back in a couple of hours. 

I best leave some assistance here on how to find these s and r values too, they can be found in your module.ini for crpg, I will post them here anyway
armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.8
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.5

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 0.75 .
On my method, I just worked out d for each bow, substituted the respective values of s and r for each bow then set them equal to one another to find the break even point, my findings with these equations were that there wasn't a break even point (you get complex solutions). So with a graphical calculator you can see this without the whiteboard I filled with simultaneous quadratic equations. [Without the fun though] I must be clear that these are approximate formulae, the real ones do have an overlap, I only used these because I couldn't find the hard coded ones, they are a reasonable indicator though, just to give respect to Ulrist for looking into this with hard coded equations.

Thank you for finding the soak and absorb factors again. Was searching for them for a while.

I frankly have not been shot too much by longbows, so I do not think they are too strong. Hopefully they do ok versus tin cans. If longbow needs a niche, what is the niche for nomad bows? Seems everyone is using strong and warbows.

Paul is as always a helpful source of useful information for the number crunchers and quants. May he never catch the troll information disease plaguing some of the other devs.

[Keshian]

I use a khergit bow, which is like the nomad bow, a  lot and it works well if you go 7-8 powerdraw because you've traded lower wpf for more armor penetration and damage ability, while using the khergit is less damage than the warbow/strongbow, it gets the same penetration.  To get the same speed you would have had to do 5-6 powerdraw and more weaponmaster into archery but would have less armor penetration ability which is based on a combination of type of damage (cut, pierce) and amount of powerdraw.  You could always do longbow with 6 or more powerdraw for optimal armor penetration, but the speed and accuracy is abysmal.  Also because youa are using a weaker bow compared to your powerdraw you have a steadier shot with reticules exapnding at a slower rate.  So it does have a niche.

I do wish short bow and bow were faster by 5-10 speed so they could have a niche as well, such low damage their main purpose is to annoy and distract enemy meleers at close range, but that requires a little more speed to compensate the low damage if you want people using them at all.  People still us hunting/light xbow because the speed difference is actually significant, not sure whyt he same couldn't be true for bow/short bow.