inb4 2h/piker/cav whine.I'm a dedicated archer, can I "whine"?
True, most people who whine about archers are just ignorant. Most haven't player archer since the weight increase and on Eu1 you can't jump and shoot, which is yet another nerf to ranged. You can't jump and throw/shoot but you can swing a maul and jump. Great logic.
Inb4 people like leshma downvote me
Also, i recently saw kiting archers again, sweet mother of god i was happy... They saw me coming, dropped their bows and ran off with only their melee wep :mrgreen:the problem is now kiting SB xbowers, they will get xbow weight up to the same as bow weight and i quote rico:
I'm a dedicated archer, can I "whine"?
Get a real melee weapon and cav won't be a problem. Take some armour too if you already can't run away. Even with a real melee weapon AND armour I can still dodge horses.
At the moment archery is all about standing still and shooting. If there's a cav you don't have the option to try and dodge it using footwork anymore.
I believe reverting bow/arrow weight back to the way it was will make it fun to play archer again and it will be a nerf to cav somewhat since cav can't just run archers over without even trying.
inb4 2h/piker/cav whine.
Don't get why people are so serious. I find archery fine at the moment, albeit you need 7+ athl if you want to kite with 2 quivers which I'll finally have 8 athl next level at 32 but I'll only have 1 ps. Which is a down side of me deciding to be able to kite.
So yes, it's either kite a little bit or have power strike which is fine to me.
I just don't get why long spears, xbows don't get nerfed.
So chill out ven
so you can use footwork for melee efficiency
It's not about kitting its about being able to move around without glue on your shoes, so you can use footwork for melee efficiency. Footwork is critical for an archer, considering the low wpf level.
ahahah that's hilarious, implying archers used their run speed for melee efficiency rather than kiting
Is there a reason why you can't just drop your bow and quiver if you know you'll have to duel someone in melee and then pick them back up again after you're done? People with a long spear or other weapons that can't sheathe and aren't much use in 1v1 already do this.
What i can make out of this threads response is that the general opinion of 2h/shield/cav is fuck off from the game. :/
Now that you cant kite try putting some more points into PS and maybe skip out on some athl. Now you dont have to run, only beat your opponent. It may be hard to block at first but eveyone learns it eventually.
Now nerf crossbowmen aswell, those asshats can still outrun everyone.
Xbow & bolt weight has been increased at the same time as the arrows. U didnt realize? Shut up. Before that I was actually trying to defend myself in melee, now I wear ultra light armor and just run around the map when somebody is following me, just to show u that I'm gonna stick with my bitchbuild.
Going for 9 Athletics instead of just 8 just to enjoy the QQ.
Xbows can afford to pump points into athletics without losing any ranged capability. Not so for archers, they need to spec into PD as well, so similar weight for xbows makes no sense at all. xbows don't get through as much ammo either. Its easier to find a discarded xbow too (more of them), so you can drop it and stumble across another easier than archers
Diversity isn't about have builds that are good at everything. Its about unique, unusual or specialised builds. Being a kiter/melee/ranged guy is the opposite of diversity.
Balancing the game so that people can specialise and for the game to still be balanced is the goal, not having jack of all trades, good at everything builds.
Your 18/18 good at everything build is not at all what i'm looking for, the opposite actually
Now that you cant kite try putting some more points into PS and maybe skip out on some athl. Now you dont have to run, only beat your opponent. It may be hard to block at first but eveyone learns it eventually.
Now nerf crossbowmen aswell, those asshats can still outrun everyone.
Blocking isn't the issue, blocking and not being able to respond due to ever inferior wpf is the problem there
Archers have adjusted. Now they either drop their bow/arrows and run like a sissy, or they have learned to block with their 0-slot weapon. I don't know why any of them do the former, since you effectively become a leecher as soon as you drop your weapon. Especially on siege, since you can just die and respawn.
Even an average player can block nearly indefinitely if they aren't trying to attack, allowing your teammates to come help you. As a melee, there is no worse feeling than having an archer block all my swings. That how you "own" me. If you drop your only weapon and run, I just "owned" you.
Blocking isn't the issue, blocking and not being able to respond due to ever inferior wpf is the problem there. This is why ranged need every advantage they can dig out in melee, and the devs discarded footwork. These days you can either have a full athlectics kiting archer or a weak and slow hibrid who's gonna get spam killed anyway. The biggest issue was making melee more retarded instead of just nerfing sprint speed.
is this seriously how you want things to be?
ahahah that's hilarious, implying archers used their run speed for melee efficiency rather than kiting
Blocking isn't the issue, blocking and not being able to respond due to ever inferior wpf is the problem there. This is why ranged need every advantage they can dig out in melee, and the devs discarded footwork. These days you can either have a full athlectics kiting archer or a weak and slow hibrid who's gonna get spam killed anyway. The biggest issue was making melee more retarded instead of just nerfing sprint speed.I'm a slow hybrid archer. Not many can spam me and those who can, will usually die to one hit anyway.
That isn't true. You're not on the same level as dedicated melee player but you surely can hit back even with 1 wpf in 2H (in case you're using mace or fighting axe in 2H mode). Problem is that most of you ranged player don't know how. I've seen how most of you play melee roles, spam, spam and nothing by spam. Bagge and few others are notable exceptions.
Thank you, but no. Swing speed is a key advantage, I've been been using a melee char myself for 2 months and the difference is quite noticeable. And you can't "spam" with 40 or less wpf, try again.
You can melee effectively with ~70 wpf.
That's great if you're a thrower or xbower. Again, learn the basics. Dont just assume things are fine.
Hehe :lol:Not all melee use gayswords.
Look at all the dedicated melee nubs who think they win against archers because they are skilled, when in reality it is actually the combination of their amour-build-weapon-ezmode-my old friendging.
I bet some of them are even retarded enough to actually think that they are worth anything without their 2h gayswords :lol:
Blocking isn't the issue, blocking and not being able to respond due to ever inferior wpf is the problem there. This is why ranged need every advantage they can dig out in melee, and the devs discarded footwork. These days you can either have a full athlectics kiting archer or a weak and slow hibrid who's gonna get spam killed anyway. The biggest issue was making melee more retarded instead of just nerfing sprint speed.
Same old tired ass witty catechism that has been repeated enough by the anti-archer lobby to become an established part of their dogma.
The fact is that 95% of archers stood their ground even when the 2 hander or polearm user was doing their flying lolstab from 15 feet away. Why? Because they were arrogant enough and had enough accuracy to believe they were skilled enough to shoot you in the face while you were jumping through the air. They stood their ground against cavalry because they believed that they had enough skill to shoot you in your face and have enough time to sidestep your charging mount. If shit turned bad, they could take out their short weapon and be able to control the engagement in melee as all agility players should against a strength player.
Strength = slow but powerful and the build is forgiving of mistakes. Agility = quick and able to control the engagement but can make no mistakes.
So why did that change? Accuracy nerfs, slot restrictions that reduce pure archers to 0 slot 70 reach weapons, auto-kick when enemy is within 5 feet of an archer, the missile speed nerf that many archers believe is what exacerbates the ghost missile phenomenon and now the weight nerf. Lobby after lobby to appease the butthurt who primarily made their case with hyperbole and conjecture.
The developers simply will not accept the truth behind the motivation of the majority of this minority lobby, that they will never be happy with the state of ranged. They want it removed from this mod completely, and will continue to use every fair or foul means at their disposal to have it taken out as an option to play, or reduced to such a state that no player will bother trying to use the class.
Not all melee use gayswords.
I count 1 great-sword user in this thread and that is Leshma.
I'm not saying you can't kill anyone with a rusbow leshma... it's the only bow i use - i'm saying the nerf to archery was uncalled for and destroys gameplay for archers.
I'm not saying you can't kill anyone with a rusbow leshma... it's the only bow i use - i'm saying the nerf to archery was uncalled for and destroys gameplay for archers.Did it change how bows work? No.
The first time I saw an archer drop their bow to run away I laughed so hard I didn't even bother to chase after them.
Nonsense!
So... either they are just way better player than you are or you're simply not willing to adapt like ranger always demand it from complaining 2h-heroes. What is it?
Now this is nonsense. The suggestions to 2h-heroes is to supplement their weaponry with additional equipment or a horse. Never was there a suggestion that 2h-heroes take off their armor and switch to a 1 hander akin to this "drop your bow and fight" 'suggestion'. Nor was there a lobby to restrict those 2h-heroes to one playstyle. i.e. "You must stop putting points into strength and IF and put them into agility and athletics or be useless in that class" similiar to this "You must put points into strength and take a 2 slot bow and either use a 0 slot weapon or sacrifice half of your arrows".
Now this is nonsense. The suggestions to 2h-heroes is to supplement their weaponry with additional equipment or a horse. Never was there a suggestion that 2h-heroes take off their armor and switch to a 1 hander akin to this "drop your bow and fight" 'suggestion'. Nor was there a lobby to restrict those 2h-heroes to one playstyle. i.e. "You must stop putting points into strength and IF and put them into agility and athletics or be useless in that class" similiar to this "You must put points into strength and take a 2 slot bow and either use a 0 slot weapon or sacrifice half of your arrows".
Guys, kiting is not the only issue here, stop repeating yourselfs like a bunch of retards. I was a longbowman with armor, 6 ps and a mace, a slow build made to defend myself, then I got slowed down more? The nerf to movement speed made it so armored meleers can outmanouver you, when they already had reach and swing speed on their side. What I get out of this thread is what self interested pricks you all are, constantly lieing and upholding a bad situation if it beneficts you, even if some might know what archery entails and what we go through.
what people don't seem to understand here is that if you don't put 150+ points into archery you wont be able to hit the broadside of a barn even if you stand next to it. how will you get enough points to put into both PS and ath and wm and PD if you wanna do a melee build with effective archer?
auto-kick when enemy is within 5 feet of an archer
I know that this is hyperbole and you didn't actually mean 5 feet, but almost every time in recent playing when I've counted on the ranged-bump from melee proximity it hasn't happened. Dude's bow is drawn, arm is out, I'm almost right up on him with my shield drawn up, closer to his character than his drawn animation- I lift my arm to swing and get headshot, the bump doesn't occur despite being right next to the guy. It's happened frequently enough in my very small amount of recent playtime to be memorable.
This is a level 31 build, but with the new bonus to retiring at 32, it seems fine to do suggest level 31 builds instead of 30 (especially for you, since AFAIK you are like 34 or something).
Level: 31
Strength: 18
Agility: 21
Skill to attr: 6
Power Strike: 6
Athletics: 7
Power Draw: 6
Weapon Master: 7
Two Handed: 74
Archery: 155
155 only works for weak 1 slot bows. There are builds for other bows that need to be effective, which aren't right now. And the arrow speed nerf is still unexplained. Archery wasn't ballanced properly, the devs pulled some weird desperate nerf against kitting and the all class was crippled. There's giving and taking when ballancing something, and Im still waiting for the giving part. Like I said again and again, archers need to be better at melee fighting, not worse.
Dude's bow is drawn, arm is out, I'm almost right up on him with my shield drawn up, closer to his character than his drawn animation- I lift my arm to swing and get headshot, the bump doesn't occur despite being right next to the guy.
what people don't seem to understand here is that if you don't put 150+ points into archery you wont be able to hit the broadside of a barn even if you stand next to it. how will you get enough points to put into both PS and ath and wm and PD if you wanna do a melee build with effective archer?
You can't aim at groups of enemies unless you're in DTV...that's not how groups of cRPG players move. You're always aiming at a target, or maybe that's why I'm so bad on my archer STF?
Armies used tactics such as spreading out for a reason. If every archer aimed at a single enemy, it wouldn't be effective, yet it was. Which makes me think archers did in fact not aim at individual targets.
Obviously that's how they were used IRL...when's the last time you saw cRPG infantry fighting in formations? I honestly wish the game was more tactics based, with infantry protecting archers, and cavalry being weak to infantry because infantry was in formations with pikes in the mix (even loose formations). That's not how cRPG works though, so that's not how archers work in public battle servers.
Get a STF and get a crossbow or archer and shoot around for a couple maps and tell me that you're shooting into groups of people and actually hitting things, I'll call you a liar :P You have to be aiming at someone or you're going to miss, people just don't run around that close together, there's almost always a few feet between the closest person next to you.
If you think 150+ effective wpf is necessary to play archer, you have wrong expectations. It's like thinking a melee build is broken if it doesn't oneshot everything. For what reason should you be able to hit alone and moving targets, instead of aiming at groups of enemies, maximizing your chances of hitting someone ? Throwers already play like that.
Dude melee already oneshots tons of players. What are you talking about?
And what makes their expectations wrong and yours right? For what reason should you not be able to hit individual players who are moving?
I built with 170 WPF so that I could shoot archers and xbows and throwers from across the map that wanted to hybrid and therefore didn't have the aim or speed to compete. They had to get closer or get in melee range where their hybrid build gave them the advantage with their greater PS/wpf in melee/and armor. I did it so that I could hit cavalry and horse archers and horse crossbows racing across the map at 170 mph. Regardless of the bullshit propaganda that flies around this forum, that shit took skill even with pinpoint accuracy. Pinpoint at that range meant aiming your reticule about 2-3 inches above someone's head if they were standing still. There was no way you could put a dot on your screen to "auto-aim" and "point and click". It all depends upon range and having played the class for 2 years so you knew the arc of your arrow and where it would land by feel. When someone is riding on a horse, you can also factor in addition to aiming anywhere from 1-3 inches above the player depending on the range, leading your target by anywhere from 1-4 inches depending upon their speed. For that ability, I gave up my damage, my ability to take more than 1 hit from basically anybody (except ranged) and had to hit tincans dozens of times (literally at least a dozen arrows). That was an even tradeoff for being a pure archer with high accuracy. The tradeoff for pure 2 handers is that they can oneshot those annoying light bow archers like they were flies, but have to deal with their bothersome stings until they got close enough to do it. And I still fought and won against melee (which is why the poor embarrassed bastards initially starting crying to nerf archer melee ability, now you've changed your minds???)
I don't want to oneshot people with the biggest bow. I don't want half or more of my arrows to miss due to a cone of fire even though I aim correctly. I don't want to be nailed to the ground so that cavalry and I can't duel in the open field like we did just several months ago. I want to be a pure archer and not be forced into being a hybrid that has to drop their bow to avoid being shackled like a slave.
I'm so very tired of players in this mod trying to dictate to others what their playstyle should be and petitioning to change the game mechanics so that they can have their own way. Sooner or later you will have the mod to yourselves because the players getting shat upon will eventually get tired of the taste. Of course, as I said, that is the ultimate goal of the anti-ranged crowd in the first place. GG :idea:
Dude melee already oneshots tons of players. What are you talking about?
And what makes their expectations wrong and yours right? For what reason should you not be able to hit individual players who are moving?
I built with 170 WPF so that I could shoot archers and xbows and throwers from across the map that wanted to hybrid and therefore didn't have the aim or speed to compete. They had to get closer or get in melee range where their hybrid build gave them the advantage with their greater PS/wpf in melee/and armor. I did it so that I could hit cavalry and horse archers and horse crossbows racing across the map at 170 mph. Regardless of the bullshit propaganda that flies around this forum, that shit took skill even with pinpoint accuracy. Pinpoint at that range meant aiming your reticule about 2-3 inches above someone's head if they were standing still. There was no way you could put a dot on your screen to "auto-aim" and "point and click". It all depends upon range and having played the class for 2 years so you knew the arc of your arrow and where it would land by feel. When someone is riding on a horse, you can also factor in addition to aiming anywhere from 1-3 inches above the player depending on the range, leading your target by anywhere from 1-4 inches depending upon their speed. For that ability, I gave up my damage, my ability to take more than 1 hit from basically anybody (except ranged) and had to hit tincans dozens of times (literally at least a dozen arrows). That was an even tradeoff for being a pure archer with high accuracy. The tradeoff for pure 2 handers is that they can oneshot those annoying light bow archers like they were flies, but have to deal with their bothersome stings until they got close enough to do it. And I still fought and won against melee (which is why the poor embarrassed bastards initially starting crying to nerf archer melee ability, now you've changed your minds???)
I don't want to oneshot people with the biggest bow. I don't want half or more of my arrows to miss due to a cone of fire even though I aim correctly. I don't want to be nailed to the ground so that cavalry and I can't duel in the open field like we did just several months ago. I want to be a pure archer and not be forced into being a hybrid that has to drop their bow to avoid being shackled like a slave.
I'm so very tired of players in this mod trying to dictate to others what their playstyle should be and petitioning to change the game mechanics so that they can have their own way. Sooner or later you will have the mod to yourselves because the players getting shat upon will eventually get tired of the taste. Of course, as I said, that is the ultimate goal of the anti-ranged crowd in the first place. GG :idea:
Dude melee already oneshots tons of players. What are you talking about?
Kafein the archery you're refering to concerns big battles with lots of archers shooting at lots of people at very long range. It does not concern the skirmish type of battle we have in crpg at all, so stop it. It's not like ppl didn't have archery contests with trick shots and everything all throught history. Some people today are recreating medieval archery and you've seen enought videos of that to know that CRPG archers are a joke compared to real life archers. The draw speed here in particular is bs.
So much bitterness. I doubted it, but maybe you can understand how it feels to have a shield (or not) and still being shot to death helplessly no matter what you do (hiding, charging, forming a shieldwall, screaming, running, calling your mother etc.), 5 rounds in a row together with any number of your teammates.
GrannPappy is now Elite Scimitar + Elite Cavalry Shield + throwing spears. You know what he does best? Dismounts cavalry and (you guessed it) slaughters archers by the pair. Sure three can bring him down, but I would call that fair wouldn't you? So no, I don't understand you.
Well that is good for you, I don't think the community at large feels a shield transforms a melee char into an archer killer. You do approach the ideal melee (throwing being closer to melee than ranged IMO) unit to oppose against archers when you add a lot of mobility, but I would rather see shields countering range with the same efficiency range counters shieldless melee.
This is true, but open battles would also mean archers getting trashed by cav, instead of hiding behind a rock or a tree.
I'd like to add "particularly in greater numbers" to my previous post. Archers and xbowmen sticking together on a hill become a machinegun. Mass melee does not transform into a combine harvester.i like how you put that into words. :lol:
I'd like to add "particularly in greater numbers" to my previous post. Archers and xbowmen sticking together on a hill become a machinegun. Mass melee does not transform into a combine harvester.
You have no idea how many archers/ranged play on EU1 these last weeks. I've been on NA1 a week ago at prime time and there was no archers compared to EU servers.
3 out of 48 this morning.
edit: 7 out of 69 just now, 6 of which where in the same team.
I suggested speeding up agi shielders instead in the past but I guess it was more reasonable to make arrows weigh a few tons *shrug*..
http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/shield-requirement-overhaul/msg643947/
Archers shouldn't be able to kite agi characters that don't have a shield either.
Agi characters without a shield don't have a piece of equipment that can have movement penalty removed. :idea:
Archers shouldn't be able to kite agi characters that don't have a shield either.:o
If I have 9 ath and am wearing rags, archers shouldn't be leaving me in the dust that I know have less ath.
Because archers have magic fairy dust that make them fly?
The fuck are you talking about? The code that says If Archer then make faster than Oprah?
So having a slow-draw bow means you should move slower? Nice ballance there.
Who is bitter now? I've seen a group of shielders + shieldless behind them take a group of archers/xbows many many times.
So what are you after now? Anytime more than 3 ranged are within 20 feet of each other they begin losing health until they separate or die? Limit class numbers on the server? "Server message: There are already too many my old friendchers spawned in, remove your bow or xbow from equipment list or wait until next round."
5 archers grouped together can't even come close to 5 cavalry raping and pillaging through them. A horse or two may go down, but in the end 5 archers are dead and 5 cavalry are alive with half of them still riding and the the others whistling for a new mount.
I would hope that "beta tester" means "checks for bugs", but it is increasingly clear from the game changes that it means "lobbyist in chief" with an inordinate influence on the developers decisions.
If I have 9 ath and am wearing rags, archers shouldn't be leaving me in the dust that I know have less ath.
they never could. If your refering to me it's a simple matter of weight, and you would have less so i don't see your point.
the least amount of weight i would have for example is 9.1
so if you had more athletics than me, and less weight then that concludes the discussion into that your clearly overexaggerating.
15/27 padded leather, blue hood, plate mittens, rus cav boots, longsword = 9 ath and .3 more weight then you, and yet you and other archers were able to leave me in the dust. The thing that I don't think you understand is that the LENGTH of a weapon slows you down. So the fact that a bow has no length in this calculation makes you faster then an agi melee build.
well, i'm pretty good at spotting the agibuilds since they chase me down and let me tell you that they sure as hell can catch up to me and run the same speed or more. if they decide to run with their weapon out when their sole plan is to chase an archer seems somewhat stupid.
If you wanna add weaponlength ontop of this weightnerf your out of your mind, BUT if your trying to say revert weightnerf and add weaponlength instead i would actually agree with you. Silly the length wasn't accounted for earlier.
This was a response to San's post that making agi shielders faster would have been a better fix. I wasn't looking for more nerfs.
The kiting nerf was long overdue, it was broken and overpowered, but an increase in missile speed and accuracy would've been a nice buff instead, in my opinion. :)
Pure 100% archery should be a support, not a able2dealwithallsituations class, like before.
Im not, hibrid archery as it is is only justifiable at really high levels.
It wasn't, that's why people resorted to avoiding phisical contact at all costs.
The solution would have been to make hibrids better, not harder, so that people could fight instead of kite, like in native.
Naah. I started kicking ass in lvl 25. That is true people avoided physical contact at all costs, but in sorta way that archers really didnt need much outside help from teammates. If you have a 50 player team and only like 10 people can catch the 20 very fast and accurate archers from other team that will most definately kite your shield into pieces or shoot you full of holes, it gets sorta OP(that does happen). Now its still like that, exept the kiting part. Now archers need to work together with infantry to survive. Something was wrong with the old system. Having fun as melee player now and ive had quite a bit of fun as archer aswell.
Naah. I started kicking ass in lvl 25. That is true people avoided physical contact at all costs, but in sorta way that archers really didnt need much outside help from teammates. If you have a 50 player team and only like 10 people can catch the 20 very fast and accurate archers from other team that will most definately kite your shield into pieces or shoot you full of holes, it gets sorta OP(that does happen). Now its still like that, exept the kiting part. Now archers need to work together with infantry to survive. Something was wrong with the old system. Having fun as melee player now and ive had quite a bit of fun as archer aswell.
20 archers on one team and only 10 with high agi/cav?
exaggerate much?
Okay. Its was about 15 archers in one team. It happened like almost 1/3 of the rounds in 1 hour yesterday. Happens alot man.....
Ok don't include xbows into this Tiberius. They weren't nerfed by quiver weight.
I didnt include xbows into this. But whatever, drive your denialbus. Not my buisness really. Ofcourse you complain, nobody likes that their class get nerfed, its understandable. And 2 be honest I really wasnt one complainin about kiting archers even back when I was 2h. Frankly I didnt care if kiting exsisted or not. Now that im shielder I care even less. I just stated what I saw ingame. And I saw it was working. Say what you like, but I based my oppinion on what I experienced ingame, mybe you experienced differently.
And frankly the current system isnt really forcing the archers into melee. Those that have wanted to avoid melee have done so from what ive seen. Its just the right amount of weight so that they can run off from a fight, but not enough to do some kiting.
Another noteworthy thing that i've noticed is that people usually make the example of running into a whole bunch of archers alot and expect to win or kill them. Especially 2h and polearms that don't have a shield. Like seriously? Would you all alone run into 3 strengthbuilds with shieldbreaking weapons as a shielder?
Also you HAVE to drop your bow and arrows if you want to be good in melee due to footworkpenalty(weight). Might sound nice and dandy for all melee classes but that means you HAVE to win that area back in order to get your bow back. Worst mechanic ever.
I have a COMPLETLY different experience.
When i'm an archer i know what can kill me, and to be frank... it's quite alot. It's all about footwork not to get killed and it takes alot of playing to achieve it. I've played alot of melee aswell and i don't really have a problem with archers there either, as long as you can see the archer and aren't a strbuild (if you are, you can take 6-8 arrows anyways...) you can dodge it with ease. It all comes down to mindgames at that point. Using terrain and teammates to entrap people that try to run away. I don't see the need to FORCE archers into melee when they can't put points into melee or carry melee weapons and arrows/bow due to slot system.
Something worth mentioning is that back when there was no slot system alot more archers had melee weapons (enormous polearms and 2handers) and melee alot more.
Kiting archers were never a problem for me. Sometimes I kite as infantry if we have 20 people left and the enemy only has 10, but I'm all by myself near those 10 enemies.
I just always treated them similar to horse archers or horse xbows. If there's a lot of people left, don't get kited by archers. Same with if there's only one person alive on the enemy team and they're a horse archer/horse xbow...no reason to charge Rohypnol around the map when it's him versus 10 of you, just hide behind a building or shield and wait for flags to pop up.
Basic problem:
But unless the developers stop playing deaf towards the conquest suggestion, I fear we have to keep the archers slow and with low lethality, to keep the game at least somewhat balanced in terms of fun for infantry.
fixed it for you. You can thank me later
Joker your TL;DR post is just stating the obvious (as far as I can tell, stopped reading after the second sentence since I don't think there's any basic problems with the balance between the classes, only player's willingness [or lack thereof] to adapt).
Of course ranged is supposed to be able to hit people from a distance. That's the point. And melee is strong up close. If you get an archer to run (before they made arrows weigh a ton) then they no longer were helping their team, so you have just disabled them.
How is chasing someone you won't ever be able to catch (regardless if they're an archer, thrower, melee, or horse archer) ever the person's problem that is running away? The only time it's their problem is when they are the last one alive. In any other circumstance you're the moron getting kited.
You (and a lot of other infantry) are the one's showing lack of empathy towards another class. I mean my god man, all I've ever played is cavalry lancer/1h/shield and archers have been my bane since day one, but these nerfs are fucking ridiculous and unnecessary. Instead of infantry having to adapt on the battlefield, they just zerg the forums and bitch and complain until their banes get nerfed. You know what I do instead of crying on the forums about pikemen or ranged or horse xbows? I try to change the way I play so that their strengths aren't taking advantage of my weaknesses.
But apparently the scenario where people keep running into a wall, and crying on the forums about the wall until the dev's remove the wall, is exactly what we're dealing with here.
@Huesby: You should probably stop comparing it to mounted range, since they changed the way MotF works because of it. By comparing the two, it brings into play an argument that if the last player(s) alive has a bow, that MotF should spawn.
Of course ranged is supposed to be able to hit people from a distance. That's the point. And melee is strong up close. If you get an archer to run (before they made arrows weigh a ton) then they no longer were helping their team, so you have just disabled them. Why would it make sense for someone wearing heavier armor, having more strength and less agility than someone else, be reasonably expected to catch them if they are running away?
How is chasing someone you won't ever be able to catch (regardless if they're an archer, thrower, melee, or horse archer) ever the person's problem that is running away? The only time it's their problem is when they are the last one alive. In any other circumstance you're the moron getting kited.
And I don't see the point in "adapt!" as argumentation, as first of all not everything is balanced per se, but your advice can be used on everything.
People who dont know the classes keep on posting, at least read the thread first.
Making archers move slowly gives an unfair advantage to those who can easely crush them in close range.
Before : inf runs after archer, archer unable to match him in close range is forced to kite - inf pissed for being kited , archer pissed for having to kite.
Now : inf runs after archer, archer can barely hit him due to slow arrows and crappy accuracy, inf kills archer - inf happy, archer frustrated for playing a pointless class.
melee - ranged effectiveness would have to be shifted considerably before such a situation could be considered ballanced.
I think this is where yor argumentation is flawed.
But there is some kind of "external" factor which prevents bows of getting buffed: the amount of archers. Because the more archers you have, the more powerful they become, in difference to the other classes. :
I think this is where yor argumentation is flawed.
And concerning your suggestion: I agree that the stats are quite a bit too low for bows in the current state. But there is some kind of "external" factor which prevents bows of getting buffed: the amount of archers. Because the more archers you have, the more powerful they become, in difference to the other classes. The low stats are needed to make the ranged spam we have on the servers somewhat bearable. If the amount of archers decreases somehow, I am sure some buffs could be applied again. Which would raise the amount of archers again, so you need to nerf. A vicious circle :wink:
I'm sure you are just forgetting about being chain bumped by cavalry that don't even have to hit you with their weapons to charge you to death. Probably all those horse hooves to the head :P
I'm fine with archery. These noobs just gotta go 24/15 and get 8ps and 8pd with a 5 wm and boom. I can crush people in melee no problem then countinue to shoot. Stop crying about nerfs and find new playing styles. I'm quite happy with nerfs because it gets rid of the quitter poser archers that just choose archery because it's the "OP" class.I disagree. 18/18 with 6 PS, PD, Athl, WM and 5 IF is probably better for the crap archers. You can even get melee wpf.
Joker's huge wall of nearly incoherent and jumbled text implies that archers are allowed to make more mistakes than infantry, but this couldn't be further from the truth. Archers are the most targeted and vulnerable class in the game, and a single opposing archer can disrupt an entire team of archers.
Not to mention cavalry, especially heavy, who make the bulk of their kills in the form of speared archers.
Archers generally have less armor, less iron flesh, and less powerstrike, meaning almost any mistake will result in death or near death.
Archers have to stand still when they are releasing arrows; so any cavalry can charge an archer, whose only choice is to attempt to make a shot and either get lanced in the face or hit them and get bumped for half their HP
Also, archers can't just "attack all targets", the distance of the enemy, map terrain, and composition of the enemy team all have huge effects on the effectiveness of an archer. Archers are not some kind of godly race with eagle eyes and headshot accuracy.
Lastly, how is missing a shot not detrimental to an archer? He has a limited amount of bolts/arrows, and according to joker, since the archer is so versatile, we're assuming the archer in question is one with a 1 or 2 slot weapon, which makes bolts/arrows even scarcer.
Actually not, because if there is more than a certain number or cav, they start to block each other. And blocked cavalry = stationary = easy target/easier to reach on foot = dead.
That only happens in a game with nub cavalry. Veteran cavalry congo line their prey. This mod is far advanced past the point where it has a bunch of nubs. In fact, we wouldn't even be having this nerf archer conversation if it were. You would have a bunch of archers who couldn't hit the broadside of a cataphract if it were standing still. What we have instead is a large number of archers who have played the class for 2 years or more and are very good at what they do and have invested a lot of time into acquiring the equipment to optimize their abilities. So instead of the occasional archer standing out amongst his peers, they ALL stand out because they've been doing it for so long. There are very few new archers and they don't stay archer for long because it is too frustrating for them. It is easier for them to stack armor and IF and get some kills as melee, which thins out the skilled melee pool.
If you had to go up against the top 10 duelers every single map, people would be crying for nerf against melee. But since the pool overall is weak, it seems okay. Archery? You do go up against the top 10 archers every map because that is who is playing the class. :idea:
the only thing I think is really broken is the team balance.
It is absolutely fucking unbelievable how often you can read the exact same bullshit thread after thread, day after day.
Can you people after years of playing not just realise already that not archery is the problem but its rather that you simply SUCK DONKEY DICK at the game ? Its really simple as that. How many more years and nerfs does it take to make all the lobbying dumbfucks in here realise that ?
How is it that after every nerf to archery, archers complain that their class is completely useless and then a week later nothing is said until it is nerfed again?
How is it that after every nerf to archery, archers complain that their class is completely useless and then a week later nothing is said until it is nerfed again?
we're complaining still aren't we? Not a week ago since it happened.
What XyNox said. If even I as a 120 pinger can dodge arrows and catch up to archers with my pikeman presupernerf. how come 60- pingers can't?
If you can headshot people across the map with 120 ping, maybe archery is too easy?
If you can headshot people across the map with 120 ping, maybe archery is too easy?
If you can headshot people across the map with 120 ping, maybe archery is too easy?
It´s really a shame the devs forced archers to have awareness an use teamwork with the inf. :lol:
We get it, you miss being able to kite around like a solo legolass rambo hero....
Im pretty sure if the devs wanted that. They wouldn't have added the extra weight..
Is it possible to see a none biased useless piece of shit post from you?
Just saying.......
Anyways, keep the tears flowing.
That sounds a bit awkward coming from the king of the lobbyists.
Heh..... Well i dont just play with one build for eternity like some of you... Wouldn't call my self a lobbyist. I like some people on this board just point out what's balanced an what is completely retarded.
I've seen so many good arguments why kiting should be removed, an 0 good ones why it should stay.
I think everyone understood by now that the complains about the nerf are not because of kiting,
At the moment archery is all about standing still and shooting. If there's a cav you don't have the option to try and dodge it using footwork anymore.
I believe reverting bow/arrow weight back to the way it was will make it fun to play archer again and it will be a nerf to cav somewhat since cav can't just run archers over without even trying.
inb4 2h/piker/cav whine.
It´s really a shame the devs forced archers to have awareness an use teamwork with the inf. :lol:
We get it, you miss being able to kite around like a solo legolass rambo hero....
Im pretty sure if the devs wanted that. They wouldn't have added the extra weight..
Huehuehuehue :lol:
As archers must stand still to fire and be effective, and the infantry has the W wedged down on their keyboard, the onus of "teamwork" as you interpret it is on the infantry. But go ahead and ignore the fact that archers are taking out those cavalry that are trying to backstab your non-aware ass from behind. We are shooting that shielder from the side that is blocking your every attack , allowing you to get in a hit. When you get in over your head surrounded by enemies and are trying your best to run back to your other infantry buddies, we are stunning the lead enemy and keeping them away from your juicy backside. We are interrupting xbows from reloading. We are taking out throwers that are trying to put axes through your skull at close range.
All the while trying to avoid getting ass raped by cavalry or shielders ourselves because you can't be assed to protect us in the same manner that we protect you every single round.
So yeah, let's talk about that teamwork thing shall we?
This is how I feel each time I play without my clanmates. I support others and they never support me.
I'd just like to know why the devs left things in this state.
You can't reason with the unreasonable.