Author Topic: Fix archer-weight  (Read 5497 times)

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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2013, 09:33:16 pm »
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You can't aim at groups of enemies unless you're in DTV...that's not how groups of cRPG players move.  You're always aiming at a target, or maybe that's why I'm so bad on my archer STF?
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Offline XyNox

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2013, 09:48:04 pm »
+1
Threads like those remind me to shoot into duels everytime possible. Its not like any of those wastes of living tissue deserve fair treatment in the first place. I mean you also wouldnt let your dog answer the phone, right ?  :lol:
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2013, 09:51:52 pm »
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You can't aim at groups of enemies unless you're in DTV...that's not how groups of cRPG players move.  You're always aiming at a target, or maybe that's why I'm so bad on my archer STF?

Armies used tactics such as spreading out for a reason. If every archer aimed at a single enemy, it wouldn't be effective, yet it was. Which makes me think archers did in fact not aim at individual targets.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2013, 09:56:15 pm »
0
Armies used tactics such as spreading out for a reason. If every archer aimed at a single enemy, it wouldn't be effective, yet it was. Which makes me think archers did in fact not aim at individual targets.

Obviously that's how they were used IRL...when's the last time you saw cRPG infantry fighting in formations?  I honestly wish the game was more tactics based, with infantry protecting archers, and cavalry being weak to infantry because infantry was in formations with pikes in the mix (even loose formations).  That's not how cRPG works though, so that's not how archers work in public battle servers.

Get a STF and get a crossbow or archer and shoot around for a couple maps and tell me that you're shooting into groups of people and actually hitting things, I'll call you a liar :P  You have to be aiming at someone or you're going to miss, people just don't run around that close together, there's almost always a few feet between the closest person next to you.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2013, 10:13:01 pm »
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Obviously that's how they were used IRL...when's the last time you saw cRPG infantry fighting in formations?  I honestly wish the game was more tactics based, with infantry protecting archers, and cavalry being weak to infantry because infantry was in formations with pikes in the mix (even loose formations).  That's not how cRPG works though, so that's not how archers work in public battle servers.

Get a STF and get a crossbow or archer and shoot around for a couple maps and tell me that you're shooting into groups of people and actually hitting things, I'll call you a liar :P  You have to be aiming at someone or you're going to miss, people just don't run around that close together, there's almost always a few feet between the closest person next to you.

Can't really say about battle, but in siege (where archers are ok I should add, first reason being you don't have to kill them) it is rather frequent. Many battle maps force infantry into relatively tight corridors in a similar way.

Offline Rumblood

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2013, 11:12:36 pm »
+3
If you think 150+ effective wpf is necessary to play archer, you have wrong expectations. It's like thinking a melee build is broken if it doesn't oneshot everything. For what reason should you be able to hit alone and moving targets, instead of aiming at groups of enemies, maximizing your chances of hitting someone ? Throwers already play like that.

Dude melee already oneshots tons of players. What are you talking about?

And what makes their expectations wrong and yours right? For what reason should you not be able to hit individual players who are moving?

I built with 170 WPF so that I could shoot archers and xbows and throwers from across the map that wanted to hybrid and therefore didn't have the aim or speed to compete. They had to get closer or get in melee range where their hybrid build gave them the advantage with their greater PS/wpf in melee/and armor.  I did it so that I could hit cavalry and horse archers and horse crossbows racing across the map at 170 mph. Regardless of the bullshit propaganda that flies around this forum, that shit took skill even with pinpoint accuracy. Pinpoint at that range meant aiming your reticule about 2-3 inches above someone's head if they were standing still. There was no way you could put a dot on your screen to "auto-aim" and "point and click". It all depends upon range and having played the class for 2 years so you knew the arc of your arrow and where it would land by feel. When someone is riding on a horse, you can also factor in addition to aiming anywhere from 1-3 inches above the player depending on the range, leading your target by anywhere from 1-4 inches depending upon their speed. For that ability, I gave up my damage, my ability to take more than 1 hit from basically anybody (except ranged) and had to hit tincans dozens of times (literally at least a dozen arrows). That was an even tradeoff for being a pure archer with high accuracy. The tradeoff for pure 2 handers is that they can oneshot those annoying light bow archers like they were flies, but have to deal with their bothersome stings until they got close enough to do it. And I still fought and won against melee (which is why the poor embarrassed bastards initially starting crying to nerf archer melee ability, now you've changed your minds???)
I don't want to oneshot people with the biggest bow. I don't want half or more of my arrows to miss due to a cone of fire even though I aim correctly. I don't want to be nailed to the ground so that cavalry and I can't duel in the open field like we did just several months ago. I want to be a pure archer and not be forced into being a hybrid that has to drop their bow to avoid being shackled like a slave.

I'm so very tired of players in this mod trying to dictate to others what their playstyle should be and petitioning to change the game mechanics so that they can have their own way. Sooner or later you will have the mod to yourselves because the players getting shat upon will eventually get tired of the taste. Of course, as I said, that is the ultimate goal of the anti-ranged crowd in the first place. GG :idea:

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Offline Adamar

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2013, 12:00:10 am »
+1
Kafein the archery you're refering to concerns big battles with lots of archers shooting at lots of people at very long range. It does not concern the skirmish type of battle we have in crpg at all, so stop it. It's not like ppl didn't have archery contests with trick shots and everything all throught history. Some people today are recreating medieval archery and you've seen enought videos of that to know that CRPG archers are a joke compared to real life archers. The draw speed here in particular is bs.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 12:03:26 am by Adamar »

Offline Aderyn

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2013, 01:40:18 am »
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Dude melee already oneshots tons of players. What are you talking about?

And what makes their expectations wrong and yours right? For what reason should you not be able to hit individual players who are moving?

I built with 170 WPF so that I could shoot archers and xbows and throwers from across the map that wanted to hybrid and therefore didn't have the aim or speed to compete. They had to get closer or get in melee range where their hybrid build gave them the advantage with their greater PS/wpf in melee/and armor.  I did it so that I could hit cavalry and horse archers and horse crossbows racing across the map at 170 mph. Regardless of the bullshit propaganda that flies around this forum, that shit took skill even with pinpoint accuracy. Pinpoint at that range meant aiming your reticule about 2-3 inches above someone's head if they were standing still. There was no way you could put a dot on your screen to "auto-aim" and "point and click". It all depends upon range and having played the class for 2 years so you knew the arc of your arrow and where it would land by feel. When someone is riding on a horse, you can also factor in addition to aiming anywhere from 1-3 inches above the player depending on the range, leading your target by anywhere from 1-4 inches depending upon their speed. For that ability, I gave up my damage, my ability to take more than 1 hit from basically anybody (except ranged) and had to hit tincans dozens of times (literally at least a dozen arrows). That was an even tradeoff for being a pure archer with high accuracy. The tradeoff for pure 2 handers is that they can oneshot those annoying light bow archers like they were flies, but have to deal with their bothersome stings until they got close enough to do it. And I still fought and won against melee (which is why the poor embarrassed bastards initially starting crying to nerf archer melee ability, now you've changed your minds???)
I don't want to oneshot people with the biggest bow. I don't want half or more of my arrows to miss due to a cone of fire even though I aim correctly. I don't want to be nailed to the ground so that cavalry and I can't duel in the open field like we did just several months ago. I want to be a pure archer and not be forced into being a hybrid that has to drop their bow to avoid being shackled like a slave.

I'm so very tired of players in this mod trying to dictate to others what their playstyle should be and petitioning to change the game mechanics so that they can have their own way. Sooner or later you will have the mod to yourselves because the players getting shat upon will eventually get tired of the taste. Of course, as I said, that is the ultimate goal of the anti-ranged crowd in the first place. GG :idea:


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Offline Kafein

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2013, 02:08:26 am »
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Dude melee already oneshots tons of players. What are you talking about?

And what makes their expectations wrong and yours right? For what reason should you not be able to hit individual players who are moving?

I built with 170 WPF so that I could shoot archers and xbows and throwers from across the map that wanted to hybrid and therefore didn't have the aim or speed to compete. They had to get closer or get in melee range where their hybrid build gave them the advantage with their greater PS/wpf in melee/and armor.  I did it so that I could hit cavalry and horse archers and horse crossbows racing across the map at 170 mph. Regardless of the bullshit propaganda that flies around this forum, that shit took skill even with pinpoint accuracy. Pinpoint at that range meant aiming your reticule about 2-3 inches above someone's head if they were standing still. There was no way you could put a dot on your screen to "auto-aim" and "point and click". It all depends upon range and having played the class for 2 years so you knew the arc of your arrow and where it would land by feel. When someone is riding on a horse, you can also factor in addition to aiming anywhere from 1-3 inches above the player depending on the range, leading your target by anywhere from 1-4 inches depending upon their speed. For that ability, I gave up my damage, my ability to take more than 1 hit from basically anybody (except ranged) and had to hit tincans dozens of times (literally at least a dozen arrows). That was an even tradeoff for being a pure archer with high accuracy. The tradeoff for pure 2 handers is that they can oneshot those annoying light bow archers like they were flies, but have to deal with their bothersome stings until they got close enough to do it. And I still fought and won against melee (which is why the poor embarrassed bastards initially starting crying to nerf archer melee ability, now you've changed your minds???)
I don't want to oneshot people with the biggest bow. I don't want half or more of my arrows to miss due to a cone of fire even though I aim correctly. I don't want to be nailed to the ground so that cavalry and I can't duel in the open field like we did just several months ago. I want to be a pure archer and not be forced into being a hybrid that has to drop their bow to avoid being shackled like a slave.

I'm so very tired of players in this mod trying to dictate to others what their playstyle should be and petitioning to change the game mechanics so that they can have their own way. Sooner or later you will have the mod to yourselves because the players getting shat upon will eventually get tired of the taste. Of course, as I said, that is the ultimate goal of the anti-ranged crowd in the first place. GG :idea:

So much bitterness. I doubted it, but maybe you can understand how it feels to have a shield (or not) and still being shot to death helplessly no matter what you do (hiding, charging, forming a shieldwall, screaming, running, calling your mother etc.), 5 rounds in a row together with any number of your teammates.

About this :

Dude melee already oneshots tons of players. What are you talking about?

No. Actually yes if "melee" means 36/3 2h. Otherwise, no. Maybe most melee oneshot you specifically when they actually reach you, but first I can virtually guarantee they spend less time having a fight with another melee than chasing and eventually killing an archer and second, much like you designed your build to be better than other ranged shot for shot (a huge majority of archers do exactly that anyway), many melee design theirs to beat as many opponents as possible in melee. Those guys, they don't go down with one hit.

Kafein the archery you're refering to concerns big battles with lots of archers shooting at lots of people at very long range. It does not concern the skirmish type of battle we have in crpg at all, so stop it. It's not like ppl didn't have archery contests with trick shots and everything all throught history. Some people today are recreating medieval archery and you've seen enought videos of that to know that CRPG archers are a joke compared to real life archers. The draw speed here in particular is bs.

This is true, but open battles would also mean archers getting trashed by cav, instead of hiding behind a rock or a tree.

Offline Rumblood

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2013, 05:41:42 am »
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So much bitterness. I doubted it, but maybe you can understand how it feels to have a shield (or not) and still being shot to death helplessly no matter what you do (hiding, charging, forming a shieldwall, screaming, running, calling your mother etc.), 5 rounds in a row together with any number of your teammates.

While a nice try, it is a fail attempt. My alt has my archer gear.

GrannPappy is now Elite Scimitar + Elite Cavalry Shield + throwing spears. You know what he does best? Dismounts cavalry and (you guessed it) slaughters archers by the pair. Sure three can bring him down, but I would call that fair wouldn't you? So no, I don't understand you.
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Offline Aderyn

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #85 on: February 01, 2013, 11:38:48 am »
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Grannpappy, we need you to be the spokesman of archerfreedom. :)
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2013, 01:20:44 pm »
+1
GrannPappy is now Elite Scimitar + Elite Cavalry Shield + throwing spears. You know what he does best? Dismounts cavalry and (you guessed it) slaughters archers by the pair. Sure three can bring him down, but I would call that fair wouldn't you? So no, I don't understand you.

Well that is good for you, I don't think the community at large feels a shield transforms a melee char into an archer killer. You do approach the ideal melee (throwing being closer to melee than ranged IMO) unit to oppose against archers when you add a lot of mobility, but I would rather see shields countering range with the same efficiency range counters shieldless melee.

Offline Macropus

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2013, 02:18:40 pm »
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Shield makes me able to walk in close range with 3 to 5 enemy archers, making them scatter and not allowing them to shoot properly for some time. If the one I'm chasing tries to kite me - he dies due to increased arrow weight. If he continues to run, we both appear to be out of fighting and either my or his team kills the rest and finished me or him.
You know, I don't mind archers being strictly supportive class. What I don't like is the way dev's made them supportive - by reducing their speed. I'd rather have decreased damage than decreased speed as an archer.


Offline Kafein

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #88 on: February 01, 2013, 02:59:04 pm »
+1
I'd like to add "particularly in greater numbers" to my previous post. Archers and xbowmen sticking together on a hill become a machinegun. Mass melee does not transform into a combine harvester.

Offline Adamar

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #89 on: February 01, 2013, 04:01:19 pm »
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Well that is good for you, I don't think the community at large feels a shield transforms a melee char into an archer killer. You do approach the ideal melee (throwing being closer to melee than ranged IMO) unit to oppose against archers when you add a lot of mobility, but I would rather see shields countering range with the same efficiency range counters shieldless melee.

Not possible, since shields dont deal damage. And the advantage of a shield goes beyond blocking arrows, so it's ballanced. I's not the dev's or archer's fault that most meleers want to play pure shieldless characters, but you guys keep getting rewarded for that, instead of paying the price, like people IRL did.

The 2handed crowd has just become too greedy and spoiled in my opinion, always demanding that whatever weakness their build is supposed to have dont be so steep as to actually kill them.


This is true, but open battles would also mean archers getting trashed by cav, instead of hiding behind a rock or a tree.

That's where infantry comes to play, getting archers off their confort zone. Just raise your shield and... oh wait, my bad.