Author Topic: Fix archer-weight  (Read 4965 times)

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Offline Tibe

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #120 on: February 05, 2013, 02:48:52 am »
+1
20 archers on one team and only 10 with high agi/cav?

exaggerate much?

Okay. Its was about 15 archers in one team. It happened like almost 1/3 of the rounds in 1 hour yesterday. Happens alot man.....

Why would you dump points into athletics? Theres your problem. I was with ath 4 with a melee/archer hybrid and I did alright. If you slow anyway, whats the point of more athletics. Wouldnt it be wise to be slow but make hits that are stronger. Archers dont really have to fight melee. Mostly those that have no melee, can find a way to avoid it without the kiting. Like i said, current system works just fine. Meleeguys are watching out for their own archers now, archers acctually freaking aim for 2 seconds, instead of running around the map in ultraspeed. This is what I see ingame. Now I see the combat flowing like its fair for all(sorta). The archerclass is weaker, but its not shite. Already the fact that there is still loads of archers ingame kinda proves the point that its still fun. I found it fun. Almost finished a generation while the archer hybrid. Was lvl 29 most of the time. You will be waiting for that fix forever, I assure you.

Offline Adamar

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #121 on: February 05, 2013, 03:18:21 am »
-1
Keep up with the thread. Archers move slow(low athletics+weight) and use and a small(1 slot) weapon, so their enemy who moves faster and uses bigger weapons will have no trouble outreaching them and evading their slow hits(low wpf). That's the problem with such hibrids, they're pointless.
Weighing down archers and making them melee able are 2 incompatible things. So, no the current system isn't fine, it's worse, and people who enjoy the lack of ranged, broken as they are will remain willingfully blind to this.

Okay. Its was about 15 archers in one team. It happened like almost 1/3 of the rounds in 1 hour yesterday. Happens alot man.....

Quit the nonsence plz, we actually play the game.

Offline Tibe

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #122 on: February 05, 2013, 03:33:25 am »
+1
There is no lack of ranged. Thats the point.

And im willing to put that actually play the game thing into question.

Offline Havoco

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #123 on: February 05, 2013, 04:03:39 am »
0
Ok don't include xbows into this Tiberius. They weren't nerfed by quiver weight.
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Offline Tibe

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #124 on: February 05, 2013, 04:37:53 am »
+1
I didnt include xbows into this. But whatever, drive your denialbus. Not my buisness really. Ofcourse you complain, nobody likes that their class get nerfed, its understandable. And 2 be honest I really wasnt one complainin about kiting archers even back when I was 2h. Frankly I didnt care if  kiting exsisted or not. Now that im shielder I care even less. I just stated what I saw ingame. And I saw it was working. Say what you like, but I based my oppinion on what I experienced ingame, mybe you experienced differently.

And frankly the current system isnt really forcing the archers into melee. Those that have wanted to avoid melee have done so from what ive seen. Its just the right amount of weight so that they can run off from a fight, but not enough to do some kiting.

Offline Grumpy_Nic

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #125 on: February 05, 2013, 07:21:17 am »
+1
Ok don't include xbows into this Tiberius. They weren't nerfed by quiver weight.

Bolts weight was increased with the quiver weight.

Offline Aderyn

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2013, 12:10:05 pm »
0
I didnt include xbows into this. But whatever, drive your denialbus. Not my buisness really. Ofcourse you complain, nobody likes that their class get nerfed, its understandable. And 2 be honest I really wasnt one complainin about kiting archers even back when I was 2h. Frankly I didnt care if  kiting exsisted or not. Now that im shielder I care even less. I just stated what I saw ingame. And I saw it was working. Say what you like, but I based my oppinion on what I experienced ingame, mybe you experienced differently.

And frankly the current system isnt really forcing the archers into melee. Those that have wanted to avoid melee have done so from what ive seen. Its just the right amount of weight so that they can run off from a fight, but not enough to do some kiting.

I have a COMPLETLY different experience.

When i'm an archer i know what can kill me, and to be frank... it's quite alot. It's all about footwork not to get killed and it takes alot of playing to achieve it. I've played alot of melee aswell and i don't really have a problem with archers there either, as long as you can see the archer and aren't a strbuild (if you are, you can take 6-8 arrows anyways...) you can dodge it with ease. It all comes down to mindgames at that point. Using terrain and teammates to entrap people that try to run away. I don't see the need to FORCE archers into melee when they can't put points into melee or carry melee weapons and arrows/bow due to slot system.

Something worth mentioning is that back when there was no slot system alot more archers had melee weapons (enormous polearms and 2handers) and melee alot more.

Another noteworthy thing that i've noticed is that people usually make the example of running into a whole bunch of archers alot and expect to win or kill them. Especially 2h and polearms that don't have a shield. Like seriously? Would you all alone run into 3 strengthbuilds with shieldbreaking weapons as a shielder?

Also you HAVE to drop your bow and arrows if you want to be good in melee due to footworkpenalty(weight). Might sound nice and dandy for all melee classes but that means you HAVE to win that area back in order to get your bow back. Worst mechanic ever.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #127 on: February 05, 2013, 12:22:25 pm »
+1
Another noteworthy thing that i've noticed is that people usually make the example of running into a whole bunch of archers alot and expect to win or kill them. Especially 2h and polearms that don't have a shield. Like seriously? Would you all alone run into 3 strengthbuilds with shieldbreaking weapons as a shielder?

Actually, yes. And I don't lose that often against the 3 shieldbreakers. Can't say the same about 3 archers, even though shieldbreakers should counter shields better than archers. It is all about scaling. A single shielder cannot kill 3 archers running in different directions. The 3 str melee builds have to stay close and can be harmed by the shielder and their 2 teammates.

Also you HAVE to drop your bow and arrows if you want to be good in melee due to footworkpenalty(weight). Might sound nice and dandy for all melee classes but that means you HAVE to win that area back in order to get your bow back. Worst mechanic ever.

Tell that to 1h/lance cav, or pikemen. Unsheathable weapons and slots is a realistic mechanic that introduces a new element in the game.

Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #128 on: February 05, 2013, 04:33:09 pm »
0
I have a COMPLETLY different experience.

When i'm an archer i know what can kill me, and to be frank... it's quite alot. It's all about footwork not to get killed and it takes alot of playing to achieve it. I've played alot of melee aswell and i don't really have a problem with archers there either, as long as you can see the archer and aren't a strbuild (if you are, you can take 6-8 arrows anyways...) you can dodge it with ease. It all comes down to mindgames at that point. Using terrain and teammates to entrap people that try to run away. I don't see the need to FORCE archers into melee when they can't put points into melee or carry melee weapons and arrows/bow due to slot system.


So your solution to a kiting archer is to kite yourself. So its just a standstill?

Quote
Something worth mentioning is that back when there was no slot system alot more archers had melee weapons (enormous polearms and 2handers) and melee alot more.

If removing the slot system makes archers engage in melee, I am all for getting rid of it.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #129 on: February 05, 2013, 05:02:42 pm »
+1
Kiting archers were never a problem for me.  Sometimes I kite as infantry if we have 20 people left and the enemy only has 10, but I'm all by myself near those 10 enemies.

I just always treated them similar to horse archers or horse xbows.  If there's a lot of people left, don't get kited by archers.  Same with if there's only one person alive on the enemy team and they're a horse archer/horse xbow...no reason to charge Rohypnol around the map when it's him versus 10 of you, just hide behind a building or shield and wait for flags to pop up.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 05:06:38 pm by CrazyCracka420 »
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Offline Aderyn

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #130 on: February 05, 2013, 06:03:26 pm »
0
Kiting archers were never a problem for me.  Sometimes I kite as infantry if we have 20 people left and the enemy only has 10, but I'm all by myself near those 10 enemies.

I just always treated them similar to horse archers or horse xbows.  If there's a lot of people left, don't get kited by archers.  Same with if there's only one person alive on the enemy team and they're a horse archer/horse xbow...no reason to charge Rohypnol around the map when it's him versus 10 of you, just hide behind a building or shield and wait for flags to pop up.

this :)
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #131 on: February 06, 2013, 02:24:07 pm »
+1
Basic problem:

In a game where you are expected to kill all enemies, there are two ways to engage: melee and ranged. The problem is, that one of them is way more flexible than the other. Being a ranged player allows you to engage almost every enemy you see, you can pick the easiest targets, and once a target gets aware of you, you can pick another. Except of shielders who are currently blocking towards you, you can attack every enemy you see with a good chance of success, depending on your aming and a little on the awareness and dodging skills of your target. (Though the fact that you can pick the easiest targets means, that your target won't be aware of you most of the time, so won't dodge/block/hide most likely). The fact that you can attack all targets you can see means that you can also protect/support all players that you can see. So the more archers see each other, the more they can protect, and the more they are protected, which means their effectivity grows exponentially with only linearly growing numbers.

Now if you play (unmounted) melee, things are different. You have to close in the distance to your preferred target, to be able to engage it. While doing so, there is constant danger of being shot or backstabbed by cavalry, as you can't choose an advantageous position, because you have to move. Some targets are practically unreachable for infantry, for example all mounted ranged classes, and some time ago also archers had that ability. This means, your targets usually have to more or less agree to get involved into melee by infantry. In other words: it is easy to avoid getting attacked by infantry if you want it that way, at least for the biggest part of the round. This is a difference to ranged, because it's difficult to avoid being shot at if you want to engage in melee (= fight = play the game). Linearly growing numbers of infantry increase their effectivity expontentially as well, but unfortnately it's a decreasing, limited exponential function, limited to a value which is reached at about four or five players. Due to limitations in reach infantry players can only support other players within a few meters radius, and there is an overall limitaton of infantry which can engage one single enemy (in difference to archers where in theory all archers of a team can engage one enemy), which can be extended a bit if some of the infantry players wield long polearms like pikes or 2-directional-halberds. But 4 or 5 is the maximum. And finally, when engaging the target of choice, infantry has to live with the fact that their opponent has influence on every attack they make, as he can block every blow in theory, and can even strike back, increasing the negative effects of failure. So if an archer misses an infantryman, in most cases (except of close distance, ofc) nothing bad happens except of that wasted arrow. But if an infantryman misses his attack or block against an archer in melee, there is a chance the archer can strike back. Of course the chances are shifted heavily by the setup of equipment and character skills the players enter melee with, but there is still a difference in the level of interaction to ranged combat, which is almost entirely one sided.

Most of the things I mentioned here are quite obvious, and I would be surprised if I told something new to anybody here. But it's those relations, effects and counter effects I wanted to point out, so that players don't only recall all aspects of the different fighting styles, but also to make aware of the basic problems we have with the mechanics.

If you look at my explanation, I was always referring to how can somebody attack, and whom, which way, and so on. It was all centered around attacking, as this is the only way to kill somebody, which is the objective in battle mode. So as bottom line we can note: fundamental differences in the way the different fighting styles attack lead to a lot of problems when it comes to making things fair in terms of killing every enemy class and thus fullfilling the objective.

Now instead of a shitload of tweaks and nerfs I keep on suggesting to change the initial cause of the problems: the game mode! If people didn't have to kill each other necessarily to win the round, a lot of problems would simply disappear. If you implement a conquest game mode with conquerable flags on carefully designed positions, things would change drastically. Not only would the problems of infantry be solved, I think even the (in theory) overnerfed classes of cavalry and archers could get buffed again. For example kiting would not be that much of a problem any more, because the archer can feel free to kite to the very edge of the map, the infantry will still take the flag and win. Especially if the map is designed reasonably, and the area around the map contains a corner with good cover. This just as an example.

But unless the developers stop playing deaf towards the conquest suggestion, I fear we have to keep the archers slow and with low lethality, to keep the game at least somewhat balanced in terms of fun for everybody. I don't need to mention that again the community is showing the usual lack of empathy and kindness, and actually even of matters of balancing, but in my opinion we are close to the "best" (= least bad) balance we can have for the round based team deatchmatch that battle is.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Aderyn

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #132 on: February 06, 2013, 02:48:30 pm »
0
Basic problem:
But unless the developers stop playing deaf towards the conquest suggestion, I fear we have to keep the archers slow and with low lethality, to keep the game at least somewhat balanced in terms of fun for infantry.

fixed it for you. You can thank me later
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #133 on: February 06, 2013, 02:59:38 pm »
+1
fixed it for you. You can thank me later

You show lack of empathy. Because before kiting was possible, which was no fun for infantry at all, only frustration, archer did have their fun. Now we have less fun for archers and more fun for infantry. Which is fair, imho. It's not like you don't have no fun at all, do you? You can still drop infantry and all the other classes as good as before. The only difference is when (or better: that) infantry (and cav) can reach you. They have the right to kill archers as much as archers have the right to kill infantry. And the problem is that the game mode is dictating this objective.

How about archers tend to stick together more, in a rough, loose formation. Every infantry which apporaches one archer can be taken into crossfire by the others. As I wrote, every archer can support every other archer. Take advantage of that ability. Lower mobility is everything but game breaking for archers. Especially not with the current numbers on the servers.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Fix archer-weight
« Reply #134 on: February 06, 2013, 04:03:46 pm »
+1
Joker your TL;DR post is just stating the obvious (as far as I can tell, stopped reading after the second sentence since I don't think there's any basic problems with the balance between the classes, only player's willingness [or lack thereof] to adapt).

Of course ranged is supposed to be able to hit people from a distance.  That's the point.  And melee is strong up close.  If you get an archer to run (before they made arrows weigh a ton) then they no longer were helping their team, so you have just disabled them.  Why would it make sense for someone wearing heavier armor, having more strength and less agility than someone else, be reasonably expected to catch them if they are running away?

How is chasing someone you won't ever be able to catch (regardless if they're an archer, thrower, melee, or horse archer) ever the person's problem that is running away?  The only time it's their problem is when they are the last one alive.  In any other circumstance you're the moron getting kited. 

You (and a lot of other infantry) are the one's showing lack of empathy towards another class.  I mean my god man, all I've ever played is cavalry lancer/1h/shield and archers have been my bane since day one, but these nerfs are fucking ridiculous and unnecessary.  Instead of infantry having to adapt on the battlefield, they just zerg the forums and bitch and complain until their banes get nerfed.  You know what I do instead of crying on the forums about pikemen or ranged or horse xbows?  I try to change the way I play so that their strengths aren't taking advantage of my weaknesses. 

But apparently the scenario where people keep running into a wall, and crying on the forums about the wall until the dev's remove the wall, is exactly what we're dealing with here.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 04:07:22 pm by CrazyCracka420 »
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