cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: slimpyman on January 13, 2013, 11:49:05 pm
-
I am wondering, id say less then 5 percent of the population know how to properly utilize the kick, so why was this change introduced.
When you kick someone, youre literally open to attack the for the duration of the animation, minus the way you were blocking.
so, now with this change introduced, you can no longer read an attack, block, and punish with a kick...
So is this a testing change or is it set in stone. i BELIEVE most people dont know how to implement kicks in their playstyle because kicks generally have a bigger risk then reward.... thats why most people dont use kicks. so now there even more risk to kicks. its not like we could have changed blocks in mid kick.
So now there is even less reason to use kicks. Shouldnt we be adding depth to combat as opposed to finding more ways to penalize the combat system?
-
I completely agree. if you miss a kick it's a self-stun for 1,5 sec and if you actually kick properly, you usually get hit because of lack of the block. It's too risky. Now it's play safe, live long during battle.
-
Just removing the down block for good and the upblock so every weapon has a chance to punish kicks would have been fine imo
-
So now there is even less reason to use kicks. Shouldnt we be adding depth to combat as opposed to finding more ways to penalize the combat system?
this change has been a long time coming, kicks have been reward without risk forever, unless the kickee saw it coming and started sidestepping early very few players had enough ath to actually circle around a missed kick. unless the person kicking actively screws up by kicking at the wrong time it's either a free hit, or a miss with zero penalty
-
I am wondering, id say less then 5 percent of the population know how to properly utilize the kick, so why was this change introduced.
Way more than 5% of the active population knows how to work a kick in if they have to; it's just that you don't usually see protracted 1v1s on battle and siege unless it's the last people standing at the end of the round. As for why this change was introduced, some of the factors that I assume went into it are:
1.) Kicking is supposed to be high risk, high reward. Being able to block while kicking turns that into moderate risk, high reward as long as you're not fighting more than 1 person at once.
2.) Being able to block while kicking gives longer weapons an even greater advantage over shorter weapons than they already enjoy. In a protracted 1v1, which is to say the kind of situation where you will be using kicks, a decent player with a Glaive or a Greatsword has little that can counter him if he plays the range game and kicks every time his opponent gets close. Go watch Rhaelys on duel if you want a superlative example of how to do this perfectly.
3.) You cannot kick if you have a shield. I assume this also applies to the chamberkick that Urist introduced a while back.
-
Good change. Either everybody gets to kick without penalty or noone does.
-
still, if you had an upblock going and kicked, you werent able to change the block during the kick. This change definitely affected the people who know how to kick, and it doesnt affect anyone who didnt kick. All in all, im going to play a bit more and see how i feel about this change...
Kicks were originally risky and most people didnt even know how to get a free attack in anyway.... It almost like they are nerfing the highskill level players
-
Kicks were changed? When?
-
I see a lot of people complaining about how kicks weren't risky enough before, but I disagree.
Some disadvantages to kicking:
- Unable to turn, so players can circle around and hit behind a block.
- Unable to move, so enemies can easily mob you.
- VERY short range, enemies must be directly in front and touching you.
- Post kick swings are ineffective if not timed perfectly.
Some advantages:
- Sometimes allows you to get 1 free hit.
- Can stop facehuggers and W key spammers.
- Can stop enemies who telegraph their movement.
- ???
It's very easy to avoid being kicked if you have decent footwork. Even people with relatively short 1-handed weapons can easily stay out of the range of kicks if they're smart enough to avoid facehugging. In most situations if you get kicked it's because YOU made a mistake, not because kicks are overpowered.
Shielders don't have to manually block so for balance reasons it's only natural that their kicks would be less effective. Other players not only have to get the timing and range just right, they also have to block an attack at the same time. It can be very tricky, and if you don't execute everything perfectly the enemy could easily end up being the one to get a free hit on YOU. In my opinion kicks were perfect just as they were, especially with the recent addition of 'kick parrying' which gave skillful people a chance to get a full-on knockdown if they suspected that the enemy was going to try to kick them.
Removing the ability to block while kicking makes kicks borderline useless, which is why you almost never see shielders trying to kick. It's a huge amount of risk for a low-percentage chance of getting ONE free hit.
-
I personally am glad to see kicks nerfed because you can really kick after every swing with basically zero punishment if you really wanted to. This will make people slow down and actually think about kicks and not lolkick every two seconds.Kicks are not very risky if you can just block right after you kick anyway.
-
As if kicks were ever used before, now you really won't see anyone kicking. I wish this change was NOT implemented :cry:
-
Can you still kick from the reloading animation on a crossbow? That was added after I stopped playing arbalest sniper, and I thought it would have been a neat option to have. Gives you a chance to fake out a single opponent that comes in to kill the "helpless" crossbowman.
-
I had no problem placing situational kicks without the ability to block before, even without spamming them every other attack like many 2h and pole users. You just have to think a bit more about when to do it. Given they have short weapons, kicking will still be disadvantaging shielders. Before it was just a matter of pressing a button and blocking as usual and I don't think that was much harder than just blocking.
-
I welcome this change. It is about time.
-
best change ever. deflecting my swing with his/her feet... yay..y... sounds logic.
-
Kicks were too strong. Several people really abused them. A very good change.
-
Maybe it's just an EU phenomenon but I've never really seen anyone abusing kicks.
If people are spamming them wouldn't it make much more sense to increase the delay between kicks instead of nerfing them into uselessness? They'd still be effective, but you'd have to be more careful with the timing.
-
Hah, kicks were disgustingly strong in the right hands, while posing very little risk to the kicker. This change was excellent.
Kicks still work, I use them all the time when I get in a 1 vs 1 with my longspear. No blocking is no problem if you kick right, and hell I am pretty bad at it.
-
Hah, kicks were disgustingly strong in the right hands, while posing very little risk to the kicker. This change was excellent.
Kicks still work, I use them all the time when I get in a 1 vs 1 with my longspear. No blocking is no problem if you kick right, and hell I am pretty bad at it.
completley agree.
kicks are really fine now
-
Hah, kicks were disgustingly strong in the right hands, while posing very little risk to the kicker. This change was excellent.
Kicks still work, I use them all the time when I get in a 1 vs 1 with my longspear. No blocking is no problem if you kick right, and hell I am pretty bad at it.
Totally agree, there was no risk at all but now i have to really think about who i am kicking
-
Really nothing new to me for obvious reasons, I don't mind the change.
-
Another nerf to high skill players booooooooooo
-
rarely use kicks, almost never get kicked. +1 for nerf
-
Dude kicks were ridiculous, if you fight someone who knows how to use them. Example, get knocked down, as you're getting up you get kicked slashed and now you're dead. Happens on NA servers more than you think. The best thing they did was add the chamber kick knockdown. Hilarious and nonsensical...I approve...
-
I think it's a great change, and a long time coming.
If you encountered a 1h who didn't have a stab on his weapon, you had literally no risk to trying to land a kick.
I'd be okay with letting people block when they kicked if they made it so you can't block up while kicking, or just do the logical thing and let shielders push people when they have their shield up...and then you can keep your no risk kicks.
-
I don't really mind atm about the change, but it will have knock-on effects to the way classes are balanced
With the amount of ranged on the server (and especially xbows still the worst implemented weapon in the game), its another reason to play with a shield as primary class, especially with cav changes meaning anti-cav might not be as important (although I like the cav tweak).
I don't think regular shielders should be nerfed necessarily, but the need to play with shield as primary class should be reduced. It if wasn't such a ranged fest, and xbows weren't so easy to put into a build and use effectively it wouldn't be so bad.
Kicking change is another reason not to use 2 direction poles too, but thats a side thing and can be fixed with some reduced glance rates or something
-
Maybe it's just an EU phenomenon but I've never really seen anyone abusing kicks.
If people are spamming them wouldn't it make much more sense to increase the delay between kicks instead of nerfing them into uselessness? They'd still be effective, but you'd have to be more careful with the timing.
Legs lobbying for stronger kicks...... im not surprised! :wink:
-
what was changed?
-
Hah, kicks were disgustingly strong in the right hands, while posing very little risk to the kicker. This change was excellent.
Stab was unblockable (while kicking) before patch but for some reason people decided to whine at blockable kicking instead of using stab. It is probably too much for them to think for a while and stab, instead of trying to fight with a kicker with left and right swing...
If you hated kicking so much and it was so abused why weren't you stabbing I ask you...
-
Stab was unblockable (while kicking) before patch
This is incorrect. Much like how you can overhead from horseback with a glaive* if you hold the overhead while mounting, you could in fact kick while blocking a stab if you downblocked before you started the kick.
Do you even kick, bro?
edit: fixed an omission
-
Legs lobbying for stronger kicks...... im not surprised! :wink:
I love puns as much as I love kicking (a lot) but I'm not really lobbying for stronger kicks.
If people are abusing this mechanic a fix is obviously in order. I just want a fix that addresses the actual problem instead of wiping kicks out altogether.
For example: a 5 second delay between kicks would prevent people from 'spamming' them without compromising the integrity of the kick itself.
-
I've never really used kicks at all, I've maybe kicked someone ~5 times in the entirety of my playing this game but when fighting someone who knew how to kick effectively I'd hit them maybe 1/3 of the time if they failed the kick. I guess we'll see how it works now, it should allow people with shorter weapons to put a little more pressure on their opponent when having to fight against someone with a much longer weapon and being at somewhat less of a disadvantage.
-
and how are you supposed to fight face hugging shielders now? kicks? nope. greatmauls? nope.
They should have at least made kicks easier to land.
-
and how are you supposed to fight face hugging shielders now? kicks? nope. greatmauls? nope.
They should have at least made kicks easier to land.
They are. Yesterday i kicked two people at once so it really seems to have a wider range.
-
They are. Yesterday i kicked two people at once so it really seems to have a wider range.
gg if true.
-
This is incorrect. Much like how you can overhead from horseback with a glaive* if you hold the overhead while mounting, you could in fact kick while blocking a stab if you downblocked before you started the kick.
Do you even kick, bro?
edit: fixed an omission
Yes if you blocked the hit before kick you could block but if you were getting stabbed while kicking you couldn't and yes, I kick a lot.
-
I hope they didn't increase the effective area of a kick along with this, one or the other would've been fine but if I wasn't on top of my game it was bad enough when I would walk aware into a kick after it's pinnacle.
-
and how are you supposed to fight face hugging shielders now? kicks? nope. greatmauls? nope.
Yeah, it's not like 2h axes didn't just get a major buff, right? Also, cmp said back in July that kicks were going to get some range and turning in exchange for the loss of blocks, making them riskier but also more effective. It's a welcome change if it's true, and I'm pretty sure it is considering it coincides with what Fips reported about being able to kick two people at once.
-
I don't see why they didn't just add the couch mechanic to the kick. When you're infantry and on the ground, you would have the dot by your weapon. It would work the same way as couching. Long cooldown on a kick, whenever the dot is grey then you have a kick available, when it was red then it's on cooldown. Simple and effective way to regulate the kicks. Turn it into a tool that you have to execute flawlessly to reap the benefits, without the spam.
In my opinion this tips the balance too much towards shielders, when it's already in their favor.
-
Stab was unblockable (while kicking) before patch but for some reason people decided to whine at blockable kicking instead of using stab. It is probably too much for them to think for a while and stab, instead of trying to fight with a kicker with left and right swing...
If you hated kicking so much and it was so abused why weren't you stabbing I ask you...
Because they blocked it, every time. Besides, at the ranges where kicks happen the bulk of the weapons can't even stab fast enough. Unlike might 2h lolstab which can stab at any range very quickly.
You seem to be able to turn kicks slightly, and their hit detection is rather fucked at the moment.
-
This is incorrect. Much like how you can overhead from horseback with a glaive* if you hold the overhead while mounting, you could in fact kick while blocking a stab if you downblocked before you started the kick.
Do you even kick, bro?
Maybe the window is shorter if you do, but I tested it, and you are vulnerable to thrusts when you kick. I tested it with Lezard. I blocked down and started a kick, Lezard stabbed me, and it would still hit.
Doesn't mean I don't support the change. I like it.
-
They are. Yesterday i kicked two people at once so it really seems to have a wider range.
You could already do this if you placed the kick right in between two people against each other. I did this awhile ago on NA, which doesn't even have the changes yet.
-
It's about time this change is finally implemented, keep it, this won't penalize skilled player.
BlueKnight: try stabbing with a one-handed weapon nowadays...
-
Yeah, it's not like 2h axes didn't just get a major buff, right?
whats this about 2h axe buff?
and yeah hopefully the kick stuff is true.
-
When DGS was nerfed recently loads of cheaper 2 handers got buffs, including all the axes
-
Stab was unblockable (while kicking) before patch but for some reason people decided to whine at blockable kicking instead of using stab. It is probably too much for them to think for a while and stab, instead of trying to fight with a kicker with left and right swing...
If you hated kicking so much and it was so abused why weren't you stabbing I ask you...
1) Not all weapons have the ability to stab.
2) It was pretty ridiculous that people are complaining about shielders in their face and "what can they do". In reality the shielder should have the advantage here, but they didn't because of being able to block while kicking. The face hugger also likely had a pierce or blunt weapon without the ability to stab. In reality, the shielder should have the upper hand here, and even be able to shield bash or put his body weight into the shield and push you back/down. But being that the 2h's have the best lobby on the forums, that was not the case. Not only can you keep S-keying and swinging and hitting the shielder when they are out of range to hit you, if they ever get within range you can just kick and not worry about missing the kick because they can't hit you anyways.
This change was long overdue.
*EDIT* Also forgot about the terrible 1h stab mechanic, that should be mentioned as well.
-
and their hit detection is rather fucked at the moment.
This.
-
It's about time this change is finally implemented, keep it, this won't penalize skilled player.
Ok but kicking on EU3 is suicide now. You have to play carefully like if you couldn't do anything more than feint
-
It is true that you could spam kicks before without too much problem (if you didnt kick in the opposed direction and opened your flank), but now its the complete opposite : you can almost never kick except when you are DEAD SURE.
A middle ground can be reached ? :D
-
It is true that you could spam kicks before without too much problem (if you didnt kick in the opposed direction and opened your flank), but now its the complete opposite : you can almost never kick except when you are DEAD SURE.
A middle ground can be reached ? :D
Certainly, and I'm glad you asked!
Bring back the ability to block the 3 directions while kicking, but give shielders a shield bash or a shield "push" (if you're close enough to someone with shield up and hit kick it will push them back).
2h/polearms had the advantage before, which was retarded and defeated the purpose of having a shield.
They just have to S-Key until you get within your length of weapon to be able to hit them, and then they just kick you with your shield up. If you try dancing at all, then you will always stay out of range to hit them, while they can continue to s-key and hit you.
If you got close enough to be able to hit someone as a 1h/shield, then of course the advantage should be in your court...
I personally think this will be more balanced as they currently have it, than bringing back blocking while kicking and implementing a shield bash. People would really whine about shielders then.
-
Just removing the down block for good and the upblock so every weapon has a chance to punish kicks would have been fine imo
Although hes in a noob clan someone has told him the correct idea!
I gues a shielder playing admin without any skill invented this stupid change. Thx for being that forsighted developer team :rolleyes:
Even less skill needed for a shielder now...
-
Dude kicks were ridiculous, if you fight someone who knows how to use them. Example, get knocked down, as you're getting up you get kicked slashed and now you're dead. Happens on NA servers more than you think. The best thing they did was add the chamber kick knockdown. Hilarious and nonsensical...I approve...
If you keep spamming "E" after being knocked down and enemy decides to hit you when you are on the ground and then kick you while you are standing up, you will chamber his kick and knock him down. It was tested and it works. However people don't kick after knockdown that often and even if they do I usually forget to chamber kick.
-
When DGS was nerfed recently loads of cheaper 2 handers got buffs, including all the axes
Well, axes got biggest buff and now +3 great axe has 49 dmg instead of 46. With 95 speed (old Miaodao had 95 speed) and 96 length it's tool of destrucion on siege.
-
I don't see why they didn't just add the couch mechanic to the kick. When you're infantry and on the ground, you would have the dot by your weapon. It would work the same way as couching. Long cooldown on a kick, whenever the dot is grey then you have a kick available, when it was red then it's on cooldown. Simple and effective way to regulate the kicks. Turn it into a tool that you have to execute flawlessly to reap the benefits, without the spam.
In my opinion this tips the balance too much towards shielders, when it's already in their favor.
silveredge, you play this game at a highlevel... im glad we share the same thoughts on this kick nerf... it was totally a nerf to people who knew how to kick. its just lowering the depth of combat for non shielder classes
-
silveredge, you play this game at a highlevel... im glad we share the same thoughts on this kick nerf... it was totally a nerf to people who knew how to kick. its just lowering the depth of combat for non shielder classes
than ask developers why they nerf the complex game mechanic and change amateurishly. It was the only way to make a duel against a no brain shielder entertaining (especialy for guys like Kingrimm, Rey the Grey, Have the fee etc. with almost unbreakable shields, aaaah dont forget Ganjus) :mrgreen:.
Now every no shielder has been nerfed, GRATZ to inventor!
PS: for idiots who ask them self: whats wrong, why he bothers shielder. They had been handicapped to be incapable to block in any direction while kicking, for a good reason=> Balance
-
Stab was unblockable (while kicking) before patch but for some reason people decided to whine at blockable kicking instead of using stab. It is probably too much for them to think for a while and stab, instead of trying to fight with a kicker with left and right swing...
If you hated kicking so much and it was so abused why weren't you stabbing I ask you...
too many casual players i guess. I thought no one knew stab is not blockable while kicking animation but me :(
See you on native duel?
By the way, i reckon a survey would be more succesfull on this subject.
-
As far as I remember it was originally intented by cmp to return some turnability to kicking(like in older Warband) to compensate for the loss of blocking ability. I don't know if his plans changed but that is something you should ask him instead of spamming multipost whines. You could also ask for a smaller vulnerability time window.
-
As far as I remember it was originally intented by cmp to return some turnability to kicking(like in older Warband) to compensate for the loss of blocking ability. I don't know if his plans changed but that is something you should ask him instead of spamming multipost whines. You could also ask for a smaller vulnerability time window.
I lost his phone number :cry:
-
As far as I remember it was originally intented by cmp to return some turnability to kicking(like in older Warband) to compensate for the loss of blocking ability. I don't know if his plans changed but that is something you should ask him instead of spamming multipost whines. You could also ask for a smaller vulnerability time window.
This would be nice, I guess we just have to wait and see.
-
I like the change, kicking without blocking is an excellent challenge. There were too many strength builds who simply had to backpedal and spam kicks, a lucky one lands, and bam. 90% hp gone. This adds risk to kicking, where before there was very little. Even the stab could blocked if done properly prior to this change.
-
and how are you supposed to fight face hugging shielders now? kicks? nope. greatmauls? nope.
They should have at least made kicks easier to land.
Learn to kick when you actually should ? If someone is actually facehugging you (even regardless of your own ability to hiltslash people that, heaven forbid, use their w key or how facehugging changes absolutely nothing to the blocking mechanics), that person is easy to kick. You just have to learn to do it when you don't need to block.
-
I like the change, kicking without blocking is an excellent challenge. There were too many strength builds who simply had to backpedal and spam kicks, a lucky one lands, and bam. 90% hp gone. This adds risk to kicking, where before there was very little. Even the stab could blocked if done properly prior to this change.
So true. This is a great nerf to STR armor builds. I might redo my stats so I have more AGI. As a level 33 shielder I have 24 STR 8 PS and I loved being balanced like I was back in the day. However I needed to bulk up so it took 4 hits to kill someone instead of 7 or 8.
I would dodge kick after kick but they would just use the jump back/ skeying while kicking to avoid me. I would move behind them but the manual blocks still worked half the time. Even if you get behind them... Those crazy 2hand animations would get you either way. They cover a ton of ground.
The worst was the 2her crossbowmen that would jump on a roof and take pot shots at you. I have built myself as a counter to ranged because I wear no armor so I can move fast and have a huscarl to take many shots. The advantage should be on my side when I get close enough to them. All they would do is skey/kick then jump backwards if I got to close. Also since xbows do not penalize having ass tons of armor on it would take me many hits to kill them. Which I never understood why it would be realistic that fully plated armored people can jump 6 feet away.
I mean I still get kills but it was pretty infuriating and really needed to be changed. Thank you.
-
As far as I remember it was originally intented by cmp to return some turnability to kicking(like in older Warband) to compensate for the loss of blocking ability. I don't know if his plans changed but that is something you should ask him instead of spamming multipost whines. You could also ask for a smaller vulnerability time window.
We can ... ask for things ? "Asking" as in devs consider a request and maybe implementing it ?
-
As far as I remember it was originally intented by cmp to return some turnability to kicking(like in older Warband) to compensate for the loss of blocking ability. I don't know if his plans changed but that is something you should ask him instead of spamming multipost whines. You could also ask for a smaller vulnerability time window.
Did nobody notice that you can already turn? :D
-
You seem to be able to turn kicks slightly, and their hit detection is rather fucked at the moment.
-
I like the change, kicking without blocking is an excellent challenge. There were too many strength builds who simply had to backpedal and spam kicks, a lucky one lands, and bam. 90% hp gone. This adds risk to kicking, where before there was very little. Even the stab could blocked if done properly prior to this change.
it was THAT hard to avoid kick?
I dont thing soo
now kick should be bit faster and cancel enemies atack
-
it was THAT hard to avoid kick?
I dont thing soo
now kick should be bit faster and cancel enemies atack
When you land a kick it does cancel the enemies attack.
-
If you don't think kick +block is unbalanced you are doing it wrong, cuz a lot of really good 2h/pole players know how to abuse the fuck out of it. And why not? 1v1 it's a freebie move against anyone with a short weapon. When you see them start a swing, go and kick! You get a free chance to stun them while you block it!
Btw you can beat good shielders the same way you beat good 2h/pole who are super blockers, by trying to outposition them and using holds/feints to mess up their timing and land hits. Either that or just grab one of the dozen 2 slot shield breaker weapons if they are frustrating you that much.
-
When you land a kick it does cancel the enemies attack.
not always, sometimes you get hit anyway
-
Did nobody notice that you can already turn? :D
Can I roundhouse kick people?
-
nvm
-
Did nobody notice that you can already turn? :D
I'm guessing nobody thought to try it :P
In theory it sounds like a cool idea, but may be very OP if you can helicopter kick like you could helicopter spin a pike or great maul.
-
I didn't notice it at all. I still play with DX7 though.
-
I didn't notice it at all. I still play with DX7 though.
same on WSE 2 but I am probably blind
-
not always, sometimes you get hit anyway
Completely wrong.
You are probably mixing it with the bug (please, don't let it be a feature) of kicks not being interrupted if you hit someone kicking. Lots of times I hit someone kicking with a swing, only to be hit by the kick right after it. Tested it on EU_3 too and considering they STILL have time to hit the guy that got kicked, it sure was broken.
-
can you still chamber when you kick?
-
Kicks are fine. There's also multikick. No blocking might be an issue against agi shielders in the open, but you aren't meant to kick every 10 seconds in the open. Killed Cyber and some fallen shielder buddy of his last night, thanks to kicks. Without kicking I would most probably die, because Cyber is abusing left swing animation like a baws.
If possible, buff damage or add damage bonus when you hit a player who's stunned by kick. That's best possible buff kickers can receive.
-
If possible, buff damage or add damage bonus when you hit a player who's stunned by kick. That's best possible buff kickers can receive.
yeah add boots with implemented knives or razors?
Ah you guys still dont get it.
A situation which makes this game uniqe:
Your alone and dont fear the crowd approaching, because you:
1. Are a stupid right mouse buttton junkie (shielder) and run torwards and turning like a boss until some unexpected team hits happen
2. You kick the first in front of you and blocking a swing or whatever from another enemy beside the first one (you know like in a movie, musketeers or something). Youre a fucking skilled player (=not a shielder) and solve the situation by grabing your feet and run away or kill one by one.
So on duel server only shielder started to cry about kicks, because they are using non stabing weapons. A stab was not blockable. Skilled player have known it, stupid shielders not.
And now Duel and Battle has been mixed in my opinion. But i see it wont last long. Some time or other "devoelopers" will turn over again :mrgreen:
-
/me posts an obligatory "shut-up Lanic0r" statement
-
I didn't notice it at all. I still play with DX7 though.
You know, only cmp will laugh. Or cry. Idk.
-
BlueKnight, START now!
-
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Posting in a lanicor thread