cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thomek on October 27, 2012, 04:46:03 am

Title: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.) nvm patch out!
Post by: Thomek on October 27, 2012, 04:46:03 am
Dear devs.

Please nerf Archers, Xbows and Cav.

Battle is nearly unplayable at the moment. The amount of the above mentioned classes has made infantry either flock to Siege, quit the mod, or joined the Cav and Archer zombie horde. It is a vicious circle growing stronger every day 1 infantry player quits/transforms.

We are loosing players fast on battle, and it seems to be mostly infantry we are loosing..

It is high time to set the 2 most boring, skill-less classes back in the back-seat where they belong, and balance the mod primarily for INFANTRY.

If you are out of imagination:
(click to show/hide)

Because we don't have that many players left, and many of them are cav and archers (!) we should give free respecs with the changes.

Balancing is a continuous process that is only finished until players/metagame develops and becomes stale. (Like now) This is when we need active balancers with fresh eyes to take a look and see what can make gameplay better.

Please hire some active balancers if Paul can't be bothered.. (i.ex Tydeus if he wants)

EDIT: Yeah I know I will get heat for this, because.. surprise surprise, eventually only cav and archers will be here to lobby for their classes!
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Rebelyell on October 27, 2012, 05:04:34 am
lets wait for warband 2.0

I can't agree because I can handle eu1 nowdays, but if new players cant find that game funny that is really, really bad.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: bilwit on October 27, 2012, 05:38:35 am
A conquest game mode with multiple objectives/tickets would solve all the ranged/cav problems, just like how ranged/cav aren't a problem at all in siege because the game mode doesn't facilitate that style of play. Conquest would essentially be a siege/battle hybrid where you primarily need melee to contest points yet the maps would be open enough for ranged/cav support to be viable. In battle the objective is to kill every single player on the other team which promotes lame playstyles ala "pewpew from far away and then kite with 7+ athletics if anyone gets close."

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Thomek on October 27, 2012, 06:00:05 am
What's up with all these Conquest fanatics? I totally agree with you, but I don't believe it until I see it happen. The devs have merely adjusted a +1 cut damage in half a year and you expect conquest to come?

Would be great with new game modes and all, but my post is about practical solutions now. Not about some fantasy castle in the sky.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Andy on October 27, 2012, 06:03:22 am
What's up with all these Conquest fanatics? I totally agree with you, but I don't believe it until I see it happen. The devs have merely adjusted a +1 cut damage in half a year and you expect conquest to come?

Would be great with new game modes and all, but my post is about practical solutions now. Not about some fantasy castle in the sky.
I still say that their "secret" project that is taking up all their time is that they have been hired to do the native multiplayer for Mound & Blade bannerlord.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: owens on October 27, 2012, 06:05:00 am
http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/king-of-the-hill/msg635607/#msg635607
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Rhaelys on October 27, 2012, 06:53:57 am
Dear devs.

Please nerf Archers, Xbows and Cav.

Battle is nearly unplayable at the moment. The amount of the above mentioned classes has made infantry either flock to Siege, quit the mod, or joined the Cav and Archer zombie horde. It is a vicious circle growing stronger every day 1 infantry player quits/transforms.

We are loosing players fast on battle, and it seems to be mostly infantry we are loosing..

It is high time to set the 2 most boring, skill-less classes back in the back-seat where they belong, and balance the mod primarily for INFANTRY.

If you are out of imagination:
(click to show/hide)

Because we don't have that many players left, and many of them are cav and archers (!) we should give free respecs with the changes.

Balancing is a continuous process that is only finished until players/metagame develops and becomes stale. (Like now) This is when we need active balancers with fresh eyes to take a look and see what can make gameplay better.

Please hire some active balancers if Paul can't be bothered.. (i.ex Tydeus if he wants)

EDIT: Yeah I know I will get heat for this, because.. surprise surprise, eventually only cav and archers will be here to lobby for their classes!

Move to North America. At least here we have enough players that detest ranged and cav enough to form a solid, unwavering block of infantry.

You'll have to get used to the higher strength requirements to play with the big boys, though. Your 15/24 builds will get demolished by 27/12 baddies.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: a_bear_irl on October 27, 2012, 08:50:12 am
there's still a ton of ranged and cav on na though, it's pretty common for fully half of a team to be ranged, hell last night there was a 12 on 12 where me and one other guy were the only ones on the team without some kind of ranged weapon.

i don't think that ranged and cav are overpowered, necessarily, it's just that there's no real reason to go straight inf if you are powergaming

i think the problem with cav is basically that you can easily make a cav build that's only slightly disadvantaged in melee, guys getting dehorsed and then popping up and slaughtering the person who killed their horse is a common thing. see: cyranule, san, lubu obviously they're very good players and are going to do well regardless but playing as cav should be more of a commitment than +4 riding -2 wm -2 ps/if

the problem with ranged is that the absolute shittiest ranged player can kill the absolute best infantry 1v1, even 1v2. add a large speed penalty for a couple seconds after shooting, or make the archer gear heavier. also add an xbow skill. make it so that if you carry one alongside a shield or 2 slot weapon without any skill it doubles/triples break chance *and* maintenance cost
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Havoco on October 27, 2012, 08:55:00 am
Could always just revert back to hybrid crpg...
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: justme on October 27, 2012, 09:09:03 am
aint EU1 only cav/ranged server?

well now siege is better ranked then battle in skill way
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Wiltzu on October 27, 2012, 09:10:53 am
Just remove this dickhead's (Thomek's) Admin rights and every1 will come back =)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Riddaren on October 27, 2012, 11:56:18 am
To begin with, Thomek is one hell of a ranged/cavalry hater.
If you haven't figured out why already it's because he lacks the skill to play anything else but 2H.
The reason he can't handle fighting ranged and cavalry is because he has no awareness and no sense of teamplay.

With that said, Thomek is biased as hell.

Anyway, Thomek is right. Something needs to be done soon or this mod will die.
But nerfing is absolutely not the way to go. Too many players have already left this mod because of nerfs.

What I suggest instead is a limitation of certain items.

Example: 50 vs 50 players

Max 5 archers in each team with a bow above "short bow".
Max 5 cavalry in each team with a horse above "sumpter".
Max 5 throwers in each team with a throwing weapon above "difficulty 1".
Max 5 crossbowmen in each team with a crossbow above "hunting crossbow".

A horse crossbowman counts as both cavalry and crossbowman.
A horse archer counts both as cavalry and archer.
A horse thrower counts both as cavalry and thrower.

People getting valour should be able to take any equipment no matter if there are already enough ranged or cavalry in the team.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Kafein on October 27, 2012, 12:01:52 pm
I don't agree with your suggestion on how to nerf cavalry, but in essence this needs to be done. Battle is horrible to play compared to Siege.


What's up with all these Conquest fanatics? I totally agree with you, but I don't believe it until I see it happen. The devs have merely adjusted a +1 cut damage in half a year and you expect conquest to come?

Would be great with new game modes and all, but my post is about practical solutions now. Not about some fantasy castle in the sky.

Thing is, Conquest would very likely fix those issues no matter how done exactly. Balance changes are much harder to tweak correctly in order not to be too soft or too harsh.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Bjord on October 27, 2012, 12:06:48 pm
I agree that something needs to be done, but IMO leave archers alone. They're already weak enough.

Cavalry on the other hand is the class for dominating battle.

As I already suggested before, remove couching from all lances but the Great Lance and the Jousting Lance. At the moment, there's little reason to use Great Lance unless you're not a lancer.

Also, @Riddaren: Possibly the worst idea yet on balance. That would kill diversity so much it's unbelievable, not to mention that 90% of people won't be able to use their heirlooms. Simply big no to you.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Teeth on October 27, 2012, 12:19:29 pm
It's getting a little crazy, that's for sure.

First and foremost though, they should fix kiting archers.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Chasey on October 27, 2012, 12:21:18 pm
In my opinion the player base has evovled but the game hasnt. The  general players skill has increased alot, making infantry much harder and fights much longer. I think the game should match this, and change and evolve with the player base.  The way it is now, infantry feels very stale, which is why i believe theres been a big increase in ranged and cav. Why have these long blocking fights and then get shot or couched when you can do the shooting and do the couching. Infantry isnt as rewarding as it was and thats because the game feels is slower and people are better.

 A solution would be not to nerf cav or ranged, but to make infantry more appealing again, so players want to go infantry. This mainly could be done by just increasing the game speed, making things faster so were not stuck with 2 minute fights every time you meet somebody on the battlefield.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Arrowblood on October 27, 2012, 12:23:35 pm
It's getting a little crazy, that's for sure.

First and foremost though, they should fix kiting archers.
Yes, but not in the way that the heroes come and can harvest us like corn.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Tzar on October 27, 2012, 12:35:11 pm
I think its time the devs release a class stat info from EU1 to end all of this speculation  8-)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Cepeshi on October 27, 2012, 12:36:17 pm
To be honest, on low population server, especially on EU1 during morning or pretty much all weekend except primetimes, the problem is the ratio of ranged/cav to others. When there is 30 people and 17 are ranged and 10 cav, not much fun for the three poor bastards. And yes, i saw that exact setup during the last week.

As a quite long time player i am now somehow "forced" to go ranged or cav if i want to have some fun. If you say awareness fail, fuck you, how should all the awareness in the world help me, even with a long spear, manage to escape horde of horses chasing me? Nah, it wont. As an infantryman on some maps it is impossible to engage in some fight on full HP. Literally impossible. Not to speak that over last few days i have seen SEVERAL maps, where archers from one team could get easily to rooftop and rain death upon us, but from our spawn we didnt get any similar spots.

So yes, all those combined: Low playerbase, high ratio of ranged/cav on eu1, maps that actually support roofmonkeys back (in small scale).

And not to mention the worst of them all, HA/HX. Those fuckers have like 8-10 riding, which makes their bump take away 1/3 my HP in 50bodyarmor. Not to speak shield does not protect you from bumpdmg. So, yes, its fucked up. I stick to battle just cause i hate siege, but now i am thinking what to do. Switch to siege or go ranged/cav.

It is quite sad, as nothing gave me adrenaline rush as a good fight as infantryman. I played cav for like 8 generations, infantry for 20+-, did not finished a single try on ranged, but among these, the best satisfaction is killing group of enemies and moving on in battle with all HP left. Never felt like that while couching/shooting, NEVER.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on October 27, 2012, 12:49:31 pm
Sadly enough, complaining and pointing over-obvious facts is useless.

We are still waiting for the august patch but devs are too focused on project donkey balls to see that their mod is dying.

archers and cav don't need a total nerf or whatsoever. they need tweaking

In my opinion :

-Stop cav and archer stacking

-Cav hybrid is too easy because of the low skill points invested : 5 riding skill is enough to use to best horse in game, i name the Destrier

- Internal horse balance : Destrier is far too god for the skill investment, courser isnt good enough, armored horses are pretty useless (lololol plated charger)

- easy use of crossbow even though you have no skill points invested

- internal throwing balance : pretty useless throwing weapons : throwing axes, throwing spears, throwing lances

- other internal weapon balancing needed

- Super archer kiting


-small weapons blocking massive weapons (yeah ok weapon stun but having an archer taking on a fucking greatsword with a hammer is retarded... but this would encourage more kiting...)

-Uber stab on 2h

-1h stab needs a rework, Have you seen the amount of MW long espada eslanova on the marketplace.

-Paul beeing (heavily) biased towards ranged
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Meow on October 27, 2012, 12:58:16 pm
Can everyone please add their main char's class to their posts?
Just for the lulz :mrgreen:

As a kiting archer: OMG NERF SHIELDS!
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Fips on October 27, 2012, 01:04:02 pm
Kiting-Solution: Nerf speed while using bow ( Like 1/4th or so, maybe even more), but instead let archers wear heavier equipment (Maybe 5kg or 7 on top of the existing 10 would not be so horrible) and double the amount of arrows in one stack, so archers can go hybrid with 2slot-melee-weapons. Let all players respec their wpf, so archers would have to think about how to balance their archery and melee skills.
Yes, that would be a buff to archer overall, because they might pwn you in melee as well, but probably most archers will quit their dedicated builds and go more for hybrid, and that seems like what everyone wants.

@Meow: Proud non-kiting archer! (At least when i am facing some lonely dude i can be sure to pwn in melee, the great QQers considering archery will get kited and shot, because fuck you)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Bjord on October 27, 2012, 01:06:15 pm
Lactose, you have some decent points, but the way you present them will without surprise further demotivate devs to do anything.

Granted, they are slow. Slower than most developers. And when they implement something, they overlook small mistakes and either fix them within the week with a hotfix or simply ignore them. Longspear from horseback, anyone?

Take another example: Chamberkick. Great idea but poor execution. It's really buggy and it's quite hard to perform.

And stop shouting doomsday prophecy about cRPG. It's not dying. Never was. cRPG is getting neglected, though, that's for sure.

@Meow: 2-hander and proud. 8-)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: cmp on October 27, 2012, 01:21:56 pm
  • Give a sensible description of the thread's content in the title, meaningless titles like "help" don't tell anybody about your problem.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Osiris on October 27, 2012, 01:23:26 pm
You forget strat :D Strat is a large reason why there are so many ranged popping up.

Its simple. an Archer is waay more effective in a strat battle than a 2h hero.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Haboe on October 27, 2012, 01:23:34 pm
Can everyone please add their main char's class to their posts?
Just for the lulz :mrgreen:

As a kiting archer: OMG NERF SHIELDS!

As a dedicated shielder, game is totally balanced from my point of view. I love eating archers.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on October 27, 2012, 01:25:53 pm
Lactose, you have some decent points, but the way you present them will without surprise further demotivate devs to do anything.


over all these years I'v been happy about the game and devs work knowing their are doing it for free. I'm just dissapointed to see crpg neglected for something else that has raised no interested in me so far. Maybe it will blow our minds, will see. but...c-rpg plz...
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Adamar on October 27, 2012, 01:30:25 pm
Nerfing is not the way.

Make medium armor not affect archery, and non kitting archers will arrise.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Renegat on October 27, 2012, 01:32:21 pm
As a dedicated shielder, game is totally unbalanced from my point of view. Ranged aren't op, they are just too many, lancers are op and are too many.

I would have gave some arguments some months ago, but it's useless to bother now, everything has been already said and nothing happened.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Riddaren on October 27, 2012, 01:32:48 pm
Maybe my idea wasns't that good.
What's important is to not make nerfs that decreases the gap between good and bad players, making the game less skill based.
For example accuracy of archers and maneuverability of horses.

Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Erzengel on October 27, 2012, 01:54:37 pm
As a dedicated shielder, game is totally unbalanced from my point of view. Ranged aren't op, they are just too many, lancers are op and are too many.

I would have give some arguments some months ago, but it's useless to bother now, everything has been already said and nothing happened.

Don't forget the 2H and Polearms that can simply spam you to death. A heavy shield slows you down too much and a light shield breaks after a few hits. If you put your shield on the back your weapon gets stunned unless you use a Military Hammer or something similar. Same with body armor. With light armor you often get onehit or die due to teamhits and with medium/heavy armor you move like a turtle. It is a joke that 2H and Poles are faster, deal more damage and also have a longer reach compared to 1H. They even move much faster...

Shielder is not a bad class, but 2H and Pole are clearly superior.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: BlueKnight on October 27, 2012, 02:05:19 pm
Once on EU4 among like 30 players there were like 8 cav in enemy team and like 1 or 2 in my team. After we lost first round I said to myself "fuck this, I will use tactics" and I went back from my spawn to the invisible wall with my friend. When whole my team died doing in fact nothing, they had to watch us fighting at the invisible map border and they understood that it was the way to win. Next round whole team went to that border and we won. For the rest of the map, my team was the winning one.

To sum up, use tactics, stop whining, less talking, more raiding.

Battle is not as bad as you say. Also Thomek is a ninja so with a short weapon he might have problems with cav and as a ninja with low amount of armour he might receive big damage from archers. I guess it might be the reason why he is upset with them.

I humbly agree that penetrating heavy armours (aka. using best bows) as an archer should require 7 PD or sth but I believe devs are working on something with WM which will bring other important changes and sooner or later we will have some kind of important patch which will balance things out.

Trust donkey and his crew. Among all the games I have ever played, crpg has one of the best if not the best balance.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Miwiw on October 27, 2012, 02:09:48 pm
I'm pretty much satisfied with crpg's balance. Archers and cav are only overpowered if they pop up in hundreds (or when the map is full of fog).

Infantry should always stay with other infantry. If you go ninja, you can only die...

There should be done smth about kiting tho, I personally do not care about it much myself, but most seem not to like Archers without a melee weapon or the will to fight in melee...  :P
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Overdriven on October 27, 2012, 02:14:12 pm
In my opinion the player base has evovled but the game hasnt. The  general players skill has increased alot, making infantry much harder and fights much longer. I think the game should match this, and change and evolve with the player base.  The way it is now, infantry feels very stale, which is why i believe theres been a big increase in ranged and cav. Why have these long blocking fights and then get shot or couched when you can do the shooting and do the couching. Infantry isnt as rewarding as it was and thats because the game feels is slower and people are better.

 A solution would be not to nerf cav or ranged, but to make infantry more appealing again, so players want to go infantry. This mainly could be done by just increasing the game speed, making things faster so were not stuck with 2 minute fights every time you meet somebody on the battlefield.

Best post. No need to jump on the nerf wagon (2 years of nerfs has gotten pretty tiring).



It was a thread from Thomek. It was never going to be anything other than 'nerf cav/ranged'.

I'd personally rebalance archers to make agi archers less useful and str archers more normal and also give them basic melee capabilities (something more than that damn hammer). That much I do agree on with Thomek. Some hoplite buffs might be nice as well to help promote the class and combat cav. Removing couch lance for anything other than great lance makes sense to me, as long as the great lance also got a bit more of a buff (length/couch speed). Otherwise I wouldn't touch cav balance, they've been messed with enough and I don't think that's where the problem lies.

Finally add a requirement for xbows. It's way to easy for every melee char to lug an xbow around with minimal requirement. I've fired arbalests with my HA and killed stuff easily with 0 wpf. Makes 0 sense.

Edit:

And just because...a conquest game mode would be nice  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: BlueKnight on October 27, 2012, 02:27:21 pm
Finally add a requirement for xbows. It's way to easy for every melee char to lug an xbow around with minimal requirement. I've fired arbalests with my HA and killed stuff easily with 0 wpf. Makes 0 sense.

I guess that what was supposed to stop players from taking arbalests even with 0 wpf was the upkeep because as far as I know the chance of repair is also based on wpf somehow. It means that people will rather avoid taking arbalests until they have a very good reason for that. Also there is str requirement and to shoot from a crossbow irl, people never had to be skilled, they had to be strong enough.

Introducing skillpoints' requirement for xbow would be a bit strange.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Royans on October 27, 2012, 02:30:00 pm
Go play siege.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Overdriven on October 27, 2012, 02:32:23 pm
I guess that what was supposed to stop players from taking arbalests even with 0 wpf was the upkeep because as far as I know the chance of repair is also based on wpf somehow. It means that people will rather avoid taking arbalests until they have a very good reason for that. Also there is str requirement and to shoot from a crossbow irl, people never had to be skilled, they had to be strong enough.

Introducing skillpoints' requirement for xbow would be a bit strange.

And crpg has always been based on real life...

Problem is upkeep is neglible due to selling heirlooms ect on the marketplace. Many of the regular players around now will have a significant amount of gold and so it simply won't matter. I could quite happily lug an arbalest round with 0 wpf and it would take a long long long time for me to notice the upkeep dropping my gold at all. Str requirement is 15. Majority of people have 15 str or more. Even if you don't it's only a small step down to the heavy xbow at 12 str. I was talking more of a requirement like PD. Simply put though, the amount of people with xbows in battle is a lot. I didn't notice it so much before, but I made an xbow alt and now I realise just how many there are when I'm running along with them.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 27, 2012, 02:48:48 pm
I just came to tell that loose =/= lose. Thomek U been drunk'n shit again?

Can everyone please add their main char's class to their posts?
Just for the lulz :mrgreen:

As a kiting archer: OMG NERF SHIELDS!

As a shieldless cavalry hybrid: OMG NERF RANGED. THROWING TOO! LANCE ARE BEST AND HORSES. BITCHES LOVE HORSES... ...AND POLE :D. DERPA DURPA KATANA. IT R NO REALUZM! KATANA HEVYER IRL. KATANA ARE THIKEST AND DON'T PENETRATE ON ARMURS. SHIELDS ARE FINE MOEW. DON'T SAY THEY ARE OP I CAN BROKEN THEM EZI WITH MY HUGE POLES (AXE OR COUCH). SHIELDS ARE PERFECTLY BALANCED BUT 1H WITHOUT SHIELD IS OP DUEL CLASS THEY OUTREACH NEARLY EVERYTHING AND CAN FACEHUG SPAMITY SPAM. REMOVE SCIMITAR IT'S SO LAME WEAPON IT'S LIKE A KATUNA FUR 1H. NOT COOL. IT HITS FASTER THAN THE SHIT HIT'S THE FAN WHEN SOMEONE SCREENSHOTS THOMEK'S ADMIN ABUS. I LIKE ABUS. AUTOBUS IS COOL. HE PLAYS LIKE A BUSS!. BUT YEAH NERF KATENA, BUFF DANISH AND GERMAN G SWORDS. THEY ARE TRUE MEN'S WEPONS! LOLSTAB SHOULD ONEHIT EVRHUTING. IT'S SO POWERFUL IRL.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Balance and balancers)
Post by: Royans on October 27, 2012, 03:14:25 pm
I think Son Of Odin is a leviathan!

PS : DID U JUST SPOIL ME WITH UR GIF?!!!!!!
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Balance and balancers)
Post by: Muunilinst on October 27, 2012, 03:20:04 pm
i agree in the last weeks anddays there rounds i dont get hit one time by a melee weapon.
its like pew pew there pew pew there and thent he cav bumps when u chase an archer and then get shot on the ground.
srsly thomek made the problem may a bit bigger as it is but its still a big problem.

Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Balance and balancers)
Post by: v/onMega on October 27, 2012, 03:21:06 pm
Slowmo gamespeed AS Chase puts it.

Been saying this for more then a year....
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Thomek on October 27, 2012, 03:26:25 pm
To begin with, Thomek is one hell of a ranged/cavalry hater.
If you haven't figured out why already it's because he lacks the skill to play anything else but 2H.
The reason he can't handle fighting ranged and cavalry is because he has no awareness and no sense of teamplay.

With that said, Thomek is biased as hell.

Lol ok Riddaren, I'm not the one riding a Courser for 20 gens.. Tell me you are not biased. :P
(I play inf because it's fun for me, tried cav, and found it disgusting, archers are way worse off, but too many of them have too many looms and too high levels.. So they do more damage than melee)

Anyway, Thomek is right. Something needs to be done soon or this mod will die.
But nerfing is absolutely not the way to go. Too many players have already left this mod because of nerfs.

I'm not so sure about that. Yes, of course there is heat assosciated with nerfs, but I think more people actually would quit now, because of lame gameplay than because of nerfs.

Anyway, the point was not to turn this into a balance discussion. (Everything have been said there many times)

It's all a cry for getting something done. (Soon!)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Leshma on October 27, 2012, 03:45:31 pm
Faster and deadlier infantry. Keep other classes as they are.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Balance and balancers)
Post by: Torost on October 27, 2012, 04:12:20 pm
disclaimer: Im a silly STRarcher. 15 Agi 5 Ath , no good for kiting.

Slaugthering peasants and archers in the past might have been too easy?
Do people get hooked on high KD ratios? Thinking somthing is wrong when they cant maintain the 5:1 KD?
Im a level 31 rusbowarcher fully loomed and have a 1:1 KD, not complaining about infantry beeing to hard to hit with all their shields,spins,heavy armor and ironflesh.

A complete rework of bows ,arrows,crossbows and bolts would be a great idea to address the QQ about kiting.
Is kiting OP? or just annoying?

Adjust the PD req for all the bows. Make them all between 5-10 PD(Low Str/PD forces lowend bows.)
Currently most of the bows are useless. Only Hornbow and Rusbow that is any good.

Make bows with traits(cheap/expensive,fast/slow,accurate/inaccurate,lowdmg/highdmg), instead of the marginal increase in stats.
Tie the pierce to the bow, not the arrows.
Bring back the Warbow 10PD!
The 0slot wepons are useless for those that use them today, mainly 2slot archers. They have shitty stats ,combined with 0 wpf and ps. Only usable for killing peasants and blocking while fleeing.

Crossbows should be banned and removed IMO, but somehow this unfun playstyle that triumph and replace archery in every way have the love of the playerbase and balancers.

Make all crossbows 2 slot. And price the bolts in the same way as arrows.
Normalize looms between archery and crossbows. Currently crossbows get so much more bonus out of looming bolts and crossbow than archery.

Balance for battle regular crpg. Its impossible to make sane balancing with Strategus and siege in mind. They are different ways of playing.

Only thing that frustrates me hard with cav, is that the most manuverable ones can run in small circles and serial bump me faster than I can draw my bow.
Leading to certain death if they catch me in the open.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Oberyn on October 27, 2012, 04:13:26 pm
I just want to chime in and say I may be at least partly responsible for this particular thread because I thoroughly enjoy hunting Thomek down whenever I see him on battle servers, and this was posted after he GTX the servers late at night yesterday.
In any case, Thomek you're a throwing hybrid dude. Do you know how easily it is to shoot down the arabian with a well placed throwing spear? Maybe if you didn't force yourself to use the ridiculous throwing stars and crappy katana (i.e GIMP build, as I've told you before) you would be able to stand up better against cav and ranged. If you insist on using some of the crappiest weapons available to you because of RP reasons don't come whining afterwards that boohoo inf is underpowered. How would you even know? Do you have any inf build that isn't deliberately weak?
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Balance and balancers)
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 27, 2012, 04:29:42 pm
I think Son Of Odin is a leviathan!

PS : DID U JUST SPOIL ME WITH UR GIF?!!!!!!
Are you implying I'm being a Dick? xD

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Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: karasu on October 27, 2012, 04:31:04 pm
Time for the timeless:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 27, 2012, 04:42:26 pm
Time for the timeless:

(click to show/hide)
Yeh that quote is almost as legendary as Christo's "Daily NA drama thread" :D.

I totally forgot this:
(click to show/hide)

Also your topic title states that it's your last post on the matter, yet you've posted multiple times about the same subject in this thread alone already... False advertisement. I'm disappoint. You lied to me and I'm hurt.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Thomek on October 27, 2012, 04:43:05 pm
@Odin, as always you never bring in anything, just keeps bashing others threads. GTFO or keep your mouth shut. I don't post funny pictures in your threads.

Yes, It's this thread again. For the fucking last time, because after this I simply cannot be bothered anymore.

cRPG is sinking very fast now. Because it is no fun. Because cav and archery is too powerful, and too lame for everyone else.

If you don't see it you are blind. (Or cav/archer yourself)

This is no personal buff this nerf that thread. I think it seriously affects all of cRPG. Look how even old and very skilled melee players are quitting/not finding the gameplay bearable anymore.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 27, 2012, 04:54:49 pm
I see very good players getting owned front-front by cav all the time.   (Because Cav decides when and how to attack..)
Do you have any idea how biased and reichdicilous (lol I made a joke) that sounds? Especially the underlined part. You talk about 1 vs 1 situation and cav totally has to have the right timing to do anything (true) but if the infantry player is even half decent player with even medium range melee weapon, he will kill the horseman or the horse with ease (most of the time). And if you are really good infantry player you can own the cav even with a 2h mace if it comes to it. You always have a chance. Play with your cavalry alt longer and you will see how you can counter cav as infantry because you will have better understanding what a horseman can do.

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Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Tzar on October 27, 2012, 05:03:31 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Thomek on October 27, 2012, 05:05:51 pm
@Odin, Now you have a right to post crap.. After contributing.  :)

That's really weird, because in practice I see infantry getting raped frontally all the time.
Perhaps you never saw it or always failed at it, but Odin, it does happen. A lot.

But, yes, on duel server, sure one can win against a cav player. But that's not battle.. with 100 different distractions, the small accel change done by the horsemen can go unnoticed and the timing fails. Or perhaps you failed to account for his high ping, or low ping.

And odin, you seem to be one of FEW that STILL don't simply understand that Cav is OP by nature!  *And is supposed to be so.

Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Strider on October 27, 2012, 05:17:12 pm
IDK about everyone else but I've figured out a way to avoid getting mauled by ranged or cavalry. I hardly ever die by them anymore as long as I use my brain to avoid contact.
I am currently a 1 handed/polearmer hybrid. I do confess I often dream of changing to ranged or cav as I have done in the past.

But IMO everything is too nerfed already: infantry, ranged, cavalry. I don't think we need to nerf anything atm. We simply need to BUFF things that seem UP compared to the others.
If you go play Native then come back to cRPG you will find that EVERYTHING is nerfed af. The last thing we need is more nerfing. We need buffing.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on October 27, 2012, 05:18:17 pm
Eu1 is not so bad, it only gets annoying when all GK are on. Nothing against GK, its just 90% of cav in one team causes problems full stop. Also get rid of jumpshooting.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Overdriven on October 27, 2012, 05:18:45 pm
@Odin, Now you have a right to post crap.. After contributing.  :)

That's really weird, because in practice I see infantry getting raped frontally all the time.
Perhaps you never saw it or always failed at it, but Odin, it does happen. A lot.

But, yes, on duel server, sure one can win against a cav player. But that's not battle.. with 100 different distractions, the small accel change done by the horsemen can go unnoticed and the timing fails. Or perhaps you failed to account for his high ping, or low ping.

And odin, you seem to be one of FEW that STILL don't simply understand that Cav is OP by nature!  *And is supposed to be so.

If the infantryman fails one on one with a horseman it's his fault plain and simple. Any decent length weapon stands a good chance against a horseman one on one as even an average player. It's not hard to aim for a horses head. Yes it requires timing, but so does every aspect of crpg in melee. Ping being off ect is no excuse as you have to account for those things with everything. The only reason an infantry would fail is if his timing was off and he didn't judge it properly. Even distractions aren't an excuse because the horseman has said distractions as well. Going for the horses head isn't even the only way of deal with lancers. Inf also love the blocking down, sidestep, slash horses legs trick. Or the jumping 2m in the air and taking your head off trick which works if you avoid the lance.

Cav are OP at picking off unaware people. 1vs1 I'd say they are pretty well balanced. Even with my downed HA I can sidestep lancers easily and put arrow after arrow in their horse. And I've seen many other archers do this to so if they can manage it so can inf. And even if that fails, how hard is it to block down.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Tyr_ on October 27, 2012, 05:21:06 pm
I rly like the green grass  :)

Somehow, regarding the time you made the post, i have the suspicion that i couched/lanced you one time too often yesterday/tomorrow morning thomek :/

I think there is two simple ways to make cav/range harder to play without rly nerfing.

First: Make only couching lances able to couch, light lance,lance and heavy lance shouldnt. Why is this no nerf? Bumplancing, best way to get around a downblock, alternativly group up with a 2nd cav, one bumps the other one lances the enemy, GK is pretty good at this although its not 2 but 10 of them on each target^^.

2nd, for range: Change the system so you need to draw a bow manually and, if you hold it too long (lets say 10 sec, maybe based on STR) your arrow gets released manually with low accuracy. If you draw the bow too short the arrow will be slow, drop pretty fast and do low damage. That doesn't nerf archery, it makes it harder to play since it adds a new mechanic that need a certain timing

Ps:
Play Hoplite & make Flamberge sheatable again!
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: MrShine on October 27, 2012, 05:27:35 pm
Sorry, but a rage post against cav and archery isn't any more valid just because it's coming from a game admin.

I can count on 1 hand the amount of cav that I'm earnestly concerned about.  Sure the odd cav will lance me unawares or couch me from time to time, but even with a longsword in a 1 on 1 fight with cav I come out on top at least 75% of the time.   Really, cav get most of their kills from mopping up people that aren't paying attention.  Get your head on a swivel (IE use the ~ button liberally) and watch your cav worries melt away.

Regarding archery, I have 21 str 7 IF (70hp) with ~50 body armor.  Outside of the occasional headshot it's a rare day when I get 3 shot by ranged... usually it's more like 4 or 5, sometimes it feels like 10 if a low level archer is shooting me.  Xbows are occasionally 2 shots, most often 3 shots.  And there's a lot more armor & hp I could be stacking if I wasn't going a balanced build.   It's easy to be an archer, but it's a lot harder to be a good archer, not to mention archers really depend on looms to help with damage.   Yes it's annoying to deal with a running archer, but know your place in battle: if you see a hill full of archers and you don't have a team with you or a shield, don't go there, simple as that.



The only thing I think needs looking at is finding a way to balance 'class' on teams.   If one team has all the cavalry it does shift things in that side's favor, and I think battles would be a little more fair if that was taken into account with balance.  Of course you'd need to deal with banner balance issues there..
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Thomek on October 27, 2012, 06:06:37 pm
@Shine, I am writing as a player, not an admin, which is mostly a curse anyway.. :)

IDK, but I think chadz is very happy with his team balance formula. (With right, often 80vs80 becomes 1vs1 in the end.. By some form of magic trickery.)

So.. I have a feeling that class balance will never happen.

Sorry for being a bit anal on solutions here. I know there are many good ones, but they require more effort than the devs can be arsed to give atm.

So if you have 100 dollars, and have to go from A to B, and you can't afford a car, better buy a bike than walk. It will get you there faster.

Simple measures are required, and fast.

- And regarding exactly HOW the nerfs/changes are done, this is not the most important. But something must be done!!
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Adamar on October 27, 2012, 06:16:22 pm
Introducing skillpoints' requirement for xbow would be a bit strange.

Pulling a bow is also a matter of strenght, yet the pd requirement is there.

Edit: Nerf ninjas. Archers have had enought.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Grumbs on October 27, 2012, 06:20:15 pm
Anyone thats really bothered by the state of the game atm should just take a break. You might find you don't care for cRPG anymore once you break the routine of playing, and you might find there's a few other melee game alternatives out there now.

When you come back and see the game is exactly as it was when you left, you might wonder why you were playing in the first place, and it might turn out it was mostly because of the individual people you played with each day, or some imaginary goal you're aiming for (grind). If you don't enjoy the game anymore you can't do much more than post your opinion a couple times then call it a day. Its not worth anyone's time

Personally cRPG was my first foray into M&B combat, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. But I got quite bored of the lack of progress in development, and lack of updates about what to expect in future (with a sense of a time frame), and I'm pessimistic as a result of certain comments from devs that suggest "ranged is fine, infantry is easy" etc. Its a free game though so I can't complain too much :D

I still think cRPG combat and the battle game mode is amazing, just played it too much and think there are glaring issues with certain aspects of the design

Plus Darkfall: Unholy Wars is out soon, I advise all to look into that in November (its not a melee type game, just something different/hardcore people might like)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Kafein on October 27, 2012, 06:24:55 pm
I can take on any cav guy with just a 1h sword in a duel. At worst, it will just be a matter of patience. At best I chamberblock a lance thrust and cut the guy's head in two.

Now that this is out of the way, we can start speaking about battle : cav always avoids such a duel situation, knowing that the odds are very, very bad. With any horse but a +3 arabian, ridiculously bad.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on October 27, 2012, 06:34:58 pm
ok sooo on EU_4 today not 10mins ago, was last alive (dismounted cav) and the last alive on the other team is an archer......


All the archer does is run away and shoot and when I hide behind cover he comes close enough to take some shots but far away enough to ensure i cant get to him without dying, I tried spamming feints and spinning around, everything I could to try and dodge his arrows to no avail.

IMO archers need something done to them to help prevent kiting and to help STR ranged builds.

As for cav any half decent inf can kill a charging horseman and has an even greater chance if his a using a German great sword or the Danish. as for inf who are fighting one on one only for one of them to be killed by a horseman, granted that yeah you can't always hear the cav coming and you wont always have perfect timing but if you bitch that it ruined your "duel" or fight well....if you want on on one fights without interruptions or other people coming along and killing the other person well then go to EU_3

Ninjas are not good against cav because of their short katana's and your throwing weapons are weak. Why don't you do what Ninja Nomin does, and take a Bamboo spear that is a good anti cav weapon and still fits your RP stuff no?

yes even a piker wont win against 5 charging cav all at once but a cav wont survive charging into 5 inf who are aware of him (unless his on an armored horse) no class will survive being rushed by a certain amount of another class (unless your an archer who likes running away)

Either way Battle has become boring and even I play siege more now because I get bored of either being put on the team that auto balance put every inf on against a team with all the ranged and cav. Or just dying and having to wait 5mins for the last alive which is normally one half dead inf and one archer who seems to have allot of ammo, to see the archer just run away and shoot the inf and if a cav is the last alive normally just him and the other last alive waiting each other out.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Moncho on October 27, 2012, 06:40:39 pm
Just a question:
Right now you are complaining about kiting, but what about 1shooting archers? That would be the next big cry wave if STR archers were made viable...
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Thomek on October 27, 2012, 06:41:43 pm
@Hunter The cav doesn't have to engage. He can simply wait. Ride past to the next busy player.

The infantry is not in control of the situation.

@ Moncho, We are talking to nerf agi-archers, and make STR archers be the heavy hitters on par with what high-level loomed up AGI-archers are now.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Leshma on October 27, 2012, 06:51:18 pm
That's correct Kulin. But only works for cRPG. In Strategus that will create a lot of issues.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Pandemona on October 27, 2012, 06:51:59 pm
I played all classes but i'm dedicated cavalry and i don't have any problem about enemy cavalry when i play other classes because i know what to do, people should learn what to do against cavalries and (in general) should learn how to use their own classes advantages. Every class has advantages and disadvantages if you're using them well, then you're a good player. If you are not, you can keep whining. But before whining about other classes think this ''what if you're doing something wrong?''. There are so many cavalries but only few of them can dominate scoreboard and playing good. (this was my old comment about cavalry)

There's no much thing to do against archers but the right way isn't nerf, try to do some teamwork, stick together with your teammates, use your teammates with shield actively. Also this one is useful to avoid dieing for every classes, choose your position well.

But going solo and dieing alone and then whining won't make other classes nerfed.

In summary, in my opinion no class is OP. cRPG is about your own game style and your own build, there are good players and bad players.


Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Moncho on October 27, 2012, 06:54:35 pm
So you want that a class that already does low damage, has limited ammo, and all it can do to survive atm is to run away has two choices:
Either keep running but with much less damage
or
Go for more strength and keep the damage while not being able to run.

Yes, I see the point you make. You hate them, you truly do apparently, but nerfing them even more is not the solution.

What is happening with cRPG can be seen a bit as something along the line of how combat evolved in Renaissance and so on. People realised that they could hit without getting hit if they developed better ranged weapons. Gunpowder came into play, in cRPG it is archers getting more skilled. So they started hitting the enemies before they had a chance to hit back (Europeans vs Native Americans for example).
This was tried to counter with heavier armor at first (survivability), but then the other armies were forced to go into ranged fighting again, and fighting evolved. Within the limited means of cRPG, that is sort of what is happening (at least in my eyes), of course with a lot of differences, but people have realised they can poke from afar getting less chances of dying (eg the 10 riding HX in NA, 18/24 pure archers, etc).

Also something that bothers me is, why do people consider 18/24 rus bow archers to be agi? Many high level players have 21/21, 18/24 and similar builds, the difference is afaik in the armor used (and maybe some movement penalties to long weapons that bows are not affected by).

And cav, well, cav has always been very powerful, but what is the point of having a horse if it does not give you a big advantage?
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Pejlaen on October 27, 2012, 06:59:40 pm
I used to really love this game before I started reading and unfortunately absorbing to much from the forums. Caring TOO much about what other peoples opinions are, and letting it affect my playstyle has just made me a worse player and I dont have fun anymore because of it, regardless of how I am doing
 
My advice if you want to enjoy Crpg, is to play it in a way that makes you have fun in it, and ignore peoples critics and negative opinions about you, unless you feel they have some point.

You could also leave the gamebalance to those that made the game in the first place, and obviously knew what they were doing, I doubt we would all enjoy this game otherwise.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Leshma on October 27, 2012, 07:00:14 pm
As someone who has been away from cRPG for some time I have to say that ranged in this game is broken. Not saying that they are OP (in most cases they aren't, quite the contrary).

In any other similar game ranged isn't annoying as in Warband. Class is badly designed, that's all. I hope Taleworlds will fix that in M&B2. Can't expect that from donkey crew, they worked on it for two years and even though there were so many changes, class is bad and annoying as it was from day one.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: PhantomZero on October 27, 2012, 07:17:56 pm
I think if anything was truely "broken" or "imbalanced" then both the NA and EU servers would have the same sort of problems.

Really archers are pathetic and can hardly do any damage at all without masterwork bows and bodkins/tartars. Historically whenever someone was afraid of being shot by an arrow, they would typically carry around a flat piece of wood.

Having OP Archers AND Cav seems kind of silly since the cavalry will typically overrun any "kiting" archers. If they are kiting you, why chase them? Wait for MOF and grab a plated shield.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Bjord on October 27, 2012, 07:54:50 pm
FYI, "get a shield"-argument has gotten old, and it doesn't work. Shielders also get shot.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Denam on October 27, 2012, 07:59:33 pm
I wonder what they can honestly do to tide this. Everytime they adjust or try to change something, a bevy of threads pop up crying to bring things back to normal.

I guess nobody will ever be happy with anything.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Adamar on October 27, 2012, 08:03:04 pm
the difference is afaik in the armor used (and maybe some movement penalties to long weapons that bows are not affected by).

Oh yes they are, and that's the key issue that all you non archers haven't been able to point out.

Armor makes you move slower, shoot slower, and gimps your accuracy. So, in archer vs archer situations the fastest/most accurate win. If armor became an advantage rather than a disadvantage in this situation, there would be a lot less light armored/kiting archers in time, and melee archers would return.

I'd really like to know the dev's opinion on this.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on October 27, 2012, 08:06:58 pm
Most archers have loomed weapons now, infact It seems pretty rare to me to find a non-loomed weapon now days. And the fact you say archers do little damage yet they are able to kill me in three arrows when Im in around 52+ body armor (and this is without headshots)

And Bjord is right, even the shielders cant deal with archers now days cav can catch them but once we do all they do is just hug our horses and unless your on a fairy horse (champ Arabian) you cannot hit them and Iv even seen 1h cav fail to kill archers because of this.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Fips on October 27, 2012, 08:15:50 pm
Delete Melee out of cRPG
re-name forum to rangedgaming.com
????
profit!
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on October 27, 2012, 08:31:13 pm
Delete Melee out of cRPG
re-name forum to rangedgaming.com
????
profit!

Only plausible solution at this point.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Torben on October 27, 2012, 09:20:17 pm
at this point,  I am bored of cav because it became meh with all the nerfs,  so very often i aint trying any more to succeed.  which ends up for me in going melee very very often.  Dont rly try there that much,  but just enough to know,  that  the only real problem this mod has is class balance (staking). 

seriously,  an average melee fighter like me,  with low class armor and a long hafted blade can fight off several melee cav at once,  can dodge several archers at once,  often even coming close enough to kill one or another...  cant do much against super kighting or HAers,  but they can hopefully be dealt with by my teammembers, if they are the right class.

now if I would team up with 3 or four guys of the same class,  none of them suited to fight archers,  horse archers or cav easily, then wander off alone into the dark....
I would probably make a thread about nerfing those classes. (wink ; )


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Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Wiltzu on October 27, 2012, 09:29:56 pm
I ragespecced to archer mainly cause I've been having ping problems (when I engage melee fight my ping jumps from nice 45 to 110..) HOWEVER I have some self respect so I choose to have 3ath  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Tibe on October 27, 2012, 09:35:12 pm
I ragespecced to archer mainly cause I've been having ping problems (when I engage melee fight my ping jumps from nice 45 to 110..) HOWEVER I have some self respect so I choose to have 3ath  :mrgreen:

Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: STOPHammerTime on October 27, 2012, 10:11:52 pm
I agree with everything Thomek writes, I used to think this game was far too addictive to quit but at the minute the simple fact that it is no longer fun to play when it feels like every spawn is the omaha beach landings has seen me spend less and less time on the servers!

Ive even played Age of chivalry like some kind of animal!

Please do something admins before I am forced to turn my X-box on!
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on October 27, 2012, 10:16:45 pm
NERF CAV
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: oohillac on October 27, 2012, 11:19:21 pm
JUST ADD MORE COVER TO ALL THE MAPS

ROCKS TREES BUSHES WALLS HOUSES
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: BlueKnight on October 27, 2012, 11:30:08 pm
Just a question:
Right now you are complaining about kiting, but what about 1shooting archers? That would be the next big cry wave if STR archers were made viable...
We could make every PD point add 10% bonus not 14% and str archers are ok :-)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 27, 2012, 11:34:29 pm
Due to the air friction values even the current 14% is a garbage number. Shik a 10PD archer hits about as hard as a WM-stacked 6PD archer unless it is practically point-blank (But due to the PD is far more inaccurate). This is partly why I respected, because my 24/21 build under current mechanics was in almost every way inferior to an 18/27 build.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: djavo on October 28, 2012, 12:12:42 am
Buff throwers and maybe I get back in game. Wololo.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: bilwit on October 28, 2012, 12:26:07 am
JUST ADD MORE COVER TO ALL THE MAPS

ROCKS TREES BUSHES WALLS HOUSES

More places for archers to hide in?
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: dynamike on October 28, 2012, 12:37:20 am
Buff cudgel?
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Schmackofatz on October 28, 2012, 12:51:51 am
In my opinion the player base has evovled but the game hasnt. The  general players skill has increased alot, making infantry much harder and fights much longer. I think the game should match this, and change and evolve with the player base.  The way it is now, infantry feels very stale, which is why i believe theres been a big increase in ranged and cav. Why have these long blocking fights and then get shot or couched when you can do the shooting and do the couching. Infantry isnt as rewarding as it was and thats because the game feels is slower and people are better.

 A solution would be not to nerf cav or ranged, but to make infantry more appealing again, so players want to go infantry. This mainly could be done by just increasing the game speed, making things faster so were not stuck with 2 minute fights every time you meet somebody on the battlefield.

What he said  :o

Kinda Off-topic for that matter but would love to have that happen  :wink:
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Tzar on October 28, 2012, 01:14:29 am
Chase is correct ..... touche the devs dun gief a feck  :lol:
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Kirman on October 28, 2012, 01:20:33 am
+1 for that thread. Im one of infantry who doesnt play on battle server anymore.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Gristle on October 28, 2012, 03:25:24 am
Threads like this come up every few weeks, and it's always the same. "At this rate, there won't be any pure melee players left!" That statement was bullshit 2 years ago and it's bullshit now. The sky is not falling.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Thomek on October 28, 2012, 03:58:34 am
well I've played since 2 years and it never was this bad..
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: IG_Saint on October 28, 2012, 03:59:23 am
Threads like this come up every few weeks, and it's always the same. "At this rate, there won't be any pure melee players left!" That statement was bullshit 2 years ago and it's bullshit now. The sky is not falling.

For NA, sure, EU that's a whole different story. I swear the cause of the biggest arguments on this forum are just NA players arguing with EU players (or the other way around) about matters that are completely different on either side of the atlantic.

Besides, the ranged population got out of control twice already from what I remember. Just before the upkeep patch when everyone and their mother carried some form of ranged and then again a couple of months later with the insane thrower population. Both times ranged got hit by the nerf bat hard causing population to drop. That's why it took so long before ranged really became a problem again. Now (on EU) it's out of hand again as far as I'm concerned. At this point I don't really care if the devs nerf ranged or find some other way to reduce the amount of it on the servers, I'd just like them to acknowledge the problem and do something about it.

Cav on the other hand is imo a different problem and one that's much easier to solve by just tweaking some stat numbers on horses and lances.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see ranged or cav nerfed to the point of uselessness, I do not want melee only, but right now melee fights (the reason I and probably a lot more people play mount&blade) are often impossible, and more importantly just not any fun, due to the sheer amount of ranged and cav on the servers.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Adamar on October 28, 2012, 01:44:30 pm
Spoiled/skilless meleers are the root of the problem if they keep switching battle for siege. Maybe caving to their demands is not a good idea for game ballance.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Corsair831 on October 28, 2012, 02:15:08 pm
Dear devs.

Please nerf Archers, Xbows and Cav.

Battle is nearly unplayable at the moment. The amount of the above mentioned classes has made infantry either flock to Siege, quit the mod, or joined the Cav and Archer zombie horde. It is a vicious circle growing stronger every day 1 infantry player quits/transforms.

We are loosing players fast on battle, and it seems to be mostly infantry we are loosing..

It is high time to set the 2 most boring, skill-less classes back in the back-seat where they belong, and balance the mod primarily for INFANTRY.

If you are out of imagination:
(click to show/hide)

Because we don't have that many players left, and many of them are cav and archers (!) we should give free respecs with the changes.

Balancing is a continuous process that is only finished until players/metagame develops and becomes stale. (Like now) This is when we need active balancers with fresh eyes to take a look and see what can make gameplay better.

Please hire some active balancers if Paul can't be bothered.. (i.ex Tydeus if he wants)

EDIT: Yeah I know I will get heat for this, because.. surprise surprise, eventually only cav and archers will be here to lobby for their classes!

standard 2h hero crying that archers won't stop and duel him, and cav won't dismount and duel him, whilst he refuses to counter either class.

/bored with 2h noobs.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Tzar on October 28, 2012, 02:30:47 pm
No matter how hard you try you really cant say that Loomed high lvl Archery or lancer cav takes more skill then melee...... but keep fooling yourselfs its a good laugh watching you hang on to your crutch  :lol:

Also for shit n gigles

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Also food for thoughts.. its been 2 years since this picture was posted an the combat have just become so fuckin slow an boring no wonder people take the shortcut nowadays...

Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: korppis on October 28, 2012, 02:33:47 pm
It's getting a little crazy, that's for sure.

First and foremost though, they should fix kiting archers.

Maybe rework the quiver size up a bit, and have them be able to bring only 1 quiver at spawn? No more kiting with endless bag of arrows and archers would always have a slot to bring a proper melee weapon.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Tzar on October 28, 2012, 02:34:14 pm
Maybe rework the quiver size up a bit, and have them be able to bring only 1 quiver at spawn? No more kiting with endless bag of arrows and archers would always have a slot to bring a proper melee weapon.

Derp...
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: POOPHAMMER on October 28, 2012, 02:37:48 pm
I have no problem with cav (easy to counter, yes I play cav but I spend most of the time on foot), just turn around and look at them and 95% of the time they will turn the other way to stab someone else in the back

but there is nothing I hate more than being mowed down by a hail of arrows and bolts before I can even meet another player face to face to combat, either dead before I can make it, or down to a tiny sliver of health

All of the ranged nonsense is the reason I barely touch this mod anymore
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Corsair831 on October 28, 2012, 02:39:32 pm
No matter how hard you try you really cant say that Loomed high lvl Archery or lancer cav takes more skill then melee...... but keep fooling yourselfs its a good laugh watching you hang on to your crutch  :lol:

Also for shit n gigles

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-tbh crpg in general is just in general incredibly easy ... there's high armour/hp and long ranged weapons so melee is incredibly easy and lowskill, not to mention all the crazy slow weapons that are super easy to block

-the arrows and bolts are crazy innaccurate and low travel speed, meaning they're much more random than native, meaning less skill

-the horses whilst they may not have side lance, they are much quicker turning, and have much more hp than native horses, as well as doing insane bump damage, and the rider being able to have high infantry specs / gear (unlike native)

crpg is just an easy mode game, a game with a lower skill cap than native. you can't really go anywhere with the balance decisions that have been made.

that's not saying it's not fun though ;).
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 28, 2012, 03:11:57 pm
Thomek you see good inf players getting owned by good cav on "1 vs 1" because the infantry player was distracted and unaware for half a second too long. Cavalry doesn't need to stab you in the back necessarily. It's enough to wait, circle around and see when the opponent is in the middle of a fight and vunerable even from the frontal area. It takes a fair amount of time to be able to recognize those small moments of opportunity (especially if the infantry player is skilled one). Half a second too early and you he sees your attack and turns around. Same thing if you are half a second late. You either have to circle away and look for other "distraction window" or potentially get slashed/stabbed.

In pure 1 vs 1 situations without any distractions your "statistics" are way off. I should know because I practically play both infantry and cavalry class with my main.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: SixThumbs on October 28, 2012, 03:19:06 pm
I played team deathmatch on native the other day so I have no idea what the complaint is about cav and ranged.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Wrangham on October 28, 2012, 03:36:44 pm
I haven't figured out how to give +1s to other posts yet, so just chiming in with my opinion that ranged characters kiting slower characters has been the main reason I'll stop playing cRPG for the day. I mostly play 1h/polearm/shielder.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Tzar on October 28, 2012, 03:38:33 pm
Seems like the community is split between the hardcore melee players an the ones that cba to play an just takes the easy way out  :lol:'

Or you guys could try out playing a hybrid instead of goin pure melee/ranged/4legged noob carrier kdr gocart  :wink:

(click to show/hide)

An there is allways Eu2 if you can catch a spot if your fed up with the ranged/cav fest on Eu1  :lol:

Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 28, 2012, 03:41:34 pm
Seems like the community is split between the hardcore melee players an the ones that cba to play an just takes the easy way out  :lol:'

Or you guys could try out playing a hybrid instead of goin pure melee  :wink:
Try harder :D.

Damn you edit button. That's kinda reasonable post now :D
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Tzar on October 28, 2012, 03:43:01 pm
Try harder :D.

Shatup you!!! one day ill have a legion of 1h/shield/throwers role-playing a Roman cohort  :!: :!: :!:
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 28, 2012, 03:43:46 pm
Shatup you!!! one day ill have a legion of 1h/shield/throwers role-playing a Roman cohort  :!: :!: :!:
The horror :F
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Bonze on October 28, 2012, 04:24:51 pm
Dear devs.

Please nerf Archers, Xbows and Cav.

Battle is nearly unplayable at the moment. The amount of the above mentioned classes has made infantry either flock to Siege, quit the mod, or joined the Cav and Archer zombie horde. It is a vicious circle growing stronger every day 1 infantry player quits/transforms.

We are loosing players fast on battle, and it seems to be mostly infantry we are loosing..

It is high time to set the 2 most boring, skill-less classes back in the back-seat where they belong, and balance the mod primarily for INFANTRY.

If you are out of imagination:
(click to show/hide)

Because we don't have that many players left, and many of them are cav and archers (!) we should give free respecs with the changes.

Balancing is a continuous process that is only finished until players/metagame develops and becomes stale. (Like now) This is when we need active balancers with fresh eyes to take a look and see what can make gameplay better.

Please hire some active balancers if Paul can't be bothered.. (i.ex Tydeus if he wants)

EDIT: Yeah I know I will get heat for this, because.. surprise surprise, eventually only cav and archers will be here to lobby for their classes!

Do you really think they change the combat balance/system after years of stagnation?This mod have nearly 100.000.000   weapons bugs/glitches and with every patch we got more and more.

Paul play the game with ping 15 as melee and in his world all is ok.

Fine ..



Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Kafein on October 28, 2012, 04:36:46 pm
I have a stable 29 ping on EU_2 and EU_1 yet I see people running through each other like quantum particles.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Berserkadin on October 28, 2012, 05:03:04 pm
Best suggestion is just to make the game faster, like it used to be. Then infantry will be alot more effective.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Bonze on October 28, 2012, 05:06:10 pm
Best suggestion is just to make the game faster, like it used to be. Then infantry will be alot more effective.

Sure more lag ...thats what we need .. only spam ..
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 28, 2012, 08:48:07 pm
Thomek I hope you're happy:

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Masterwork Heavy Lance
Type:Polearm
Requirement:11 strength
Weight:1.8
Slots:2
Upkeep:679 gold
Speed:75
Length:190
Thrust:26 pierce
Swing:19 blunt
Couchable
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 28, 2012, 08:57:05 pm
Oh and this one too (a buff if Vibe is not completely wrong)

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Katana
Type:Two handed weapon
Requirement:9 strength
Weight:1.5
Slots:2
Upkeep:656 gold
Speed:100
Length:95
Thrust:18 pierce
Swing:38 cut

Happy early Christmas.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Bonze on October 28, 2012, 09:01:54 pm
I see a lot of one shot my old friendchers now so he cant use his katana and my old friendchers with full plate and 20/4 score after 5 rounds   

Time to say good bye Thomek  :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Arrowblood on October 28, 2012, 11:10:21 pm
I see a lot of one shot my old friendchers now so he cant use his katana and my old friendchers with full plate and 20/4 score after 5 rounds   

Time to say good bye Thomek  :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Did you cry after i shot u from 1m + 60kg steel on me and u rode with 100kmh  towards me  :lol:?
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Silicium on October 28, 2012, 11:17:32 pm
Did you cry after i shot u from 1m + 60kg steel on me and u rode with 100kmh  towards me  :lol:?
haha that thing made me laugh.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Bonze on October 28, 2012, 11:56:11 pm
...
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Bonze on October 29, 2012, 12:03:19 am

Did you cry after i shot u from 1m + 60kg steel on me and u rode with 100kmh  towards me  :lol:?

schizophrenic?
Knights or "deutsch"ritter never use bows.

How can you shot me with a bow Mr. Deutsch"ritter"?


Btw: get a girlfriend or go to the next cathouse if have some sexual/mental problems

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Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Torben on October 29, 2012, 12:11:22 am
your posts suck.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: SMEGMAR on October 29, 2012, 12:44:39 am
ITT: Upset 2h/pole bundle of stickss whom have somehow managed to convince themselves that ranged classes are easier to play than melee.
I have two characters, a dedicated 2h (easymode) and a pole / crossbowman hybrid. Only a fool would call archery easy to play. (i've tried it many times with looms)
Original poster is clearly retarded, but I must thank him since I laughed heartily.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Thomek on October 29, 2012, 01:35:16 am
ITT: Upset 2h/pole bundle of stickss whom have somehow managed to convince themselves that ranged classes are easier to play than melee.
I have two characters, a dedicated 2h (easymode) and a pole / crossbowman hybrid. Only a fool would call archery easy to play. (i've tried it many times with looms)
Original poster is clearly retarded, but I must thank him since I laughed heartily.

Lol no I don't think so.

I just think you still should have targets to shoot at that can't shoot back.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Corsair831 on October 29, 2012, 02:29:38 am
Lol no I don't think so.

I just think you still should have targets to shoot at that can't shoot back.

that doesn't make any sense
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Thomek on October 29, 2012, 02:34:03 am
Yes we were loosing infantry players like hell.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Overdriven on October 29, 2012, 02:40:18 am
Funny just bought and played chivalry. Second medieval game I've now played that does ranged better than crpg (WotR being other). Handing archers a sword, slowing them down whilst moving with a bow and making them slower in general actually makes them work quite well. They also don't have a random crosshair. The good archers are still killer archers. This is regardless of tdm/conquest/battle. Getting tired of people saying giving archers melee capabilities is such a bad thing. In chilvalry archers have to stand and fight if they are charged down. I've had a few try to run on me but I can chase them and swipe them with a 2h sword easily. However cause they're so quick they can be a pain in the arse to fight in melee. But it's a good thing. It teaches them to fight and not run.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Joker86 on October 29, 2012, 04:07:14 am
I have read only the first few posts, so sorry if the discussion has developed further. All I will do is posting my personal opinion on that matter and on your OP.

1. Cavalry and archers are not OP. There are only too many of them, making them look like OP. In fact they are UP.

2. There are two reasons why nerfing is not a good solution. Reason 1 is that the game is already nerfed down to hell. Reason 2 is, that although those classes are nerfed to the ground, they are still popular. So another nerf won't help it.

3. I know you don't believe in the solution, but changing the game mode from battle to conquest would perhaps not instantly fix all issues, but sure as hell it would improve things a lot. And I don't think it's that unlikely they will implement it (given they WANT), they already have implemented a lot of fantastic stuff.

4. There are also a few other ideas which would help the whole matter, for example implementing a well working commander feature (admittedy this IS very unlikely  :rolleyes: ), or buffing infantry instead of nerfing the other classes. For example an armour buff is pretty much welcomed by the majority of the community

5. A nice side effect of the conquest mode would be, that some UP classes like cavalry and archers could get buffed again  :wink:


The problem we are facing has a lot of different reasons, be it the average skill level of the community, medieval warfare never meant to be fair (thus making it difficult to implement in a fair game, e.g. a working rock-paper-scissors-system), the higher need of infantry to play in a team or the weird effect that the effectivity of cavalry and archers raises the more there is of them, without the need of actually playing together, and finally the already mentioned problem of the game mode asking a goal ("kill all enemies") of classes which don't really have the tools for it (infantry vs. kiting ranged). Even the upkeep system is a part of the problem, as it doesn't really fullfill its purpose as equipment limitation and thus forced the developers to keep the viability of different items on different levels to encourage/duscourage the use of certain items. There is no way lowering some stats could help those problems.

I am honestly disappointed of what I heard of the new patch, because just nerfing DGS/GGS, Rus Bow, Heavy Lance and other popular items and buffing a few alternatives, or buffing archer armour to make them slower spposedly, is a solution which is to compare with sawing off the too long legs of a chair to prevent it of wobbling, just to create another pair of too long legs, until the chair has no legs left. It lacks imagination and basic understanding of the problem. A few of those changes were reasonable, but at the moment we have different problems, like Thomek noticed very well.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: SMEGMAR on October 29, 2012, 05:11:39 am
Lol no I don't think so.

I just think you still should have targets to shoot at that can't shoot back.

Eurobabble
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Thomek on October 29, 2012, 05:17:43 am
(click to show/hide)

Well I know :) And I also think those are great ideas!  :rolleyes:
It's just that I don't think they are realistic atm.. Good shit, but really not gonna happen very soon. (Or who knows?)

Anyway.. the action I suggested was simple things that could be done NOW. They are not going to replace dreams of conquest..
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Vibe on October 29, 2012, 08:34:04 am
Can everyone please add their main char's class to their posts?
Just for the lulz :mrgreen:

As a kiting archer: OMG NERF SHIELDS!

please remove archer kiting

- sincerely, a shielder
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Kafein on October 29, 2012, 10:50:00 am
please remove archer kiting

- sincerely, a shielder

+1 that


and add "thrower"

Now I think I've tried everything, still haven't found a counter to archers.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Moncho on October 29, 2012, 10:57:32 am
+1 that


and add "thrower"

Now I think I've tried everything, still haven't found a counter to archers.

Might I redirect you to garison's thread? Maybe it helps you... but hell yeah, point 2 in the ground rules is still great to do
http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/(guide)-how-to-defend-against-archers-xbows-and-not-become-a-statistic/ (http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/(guide)-how-to-defend-against-archers-xbows-and-not-become-a-statistic/)
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Arrowblood on October 29, 2012, 01:54:38 pm
your posts suck.
I still havent figured out what wrong with him is.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Ylca on October 29, 2012, 03:03:43 pm
Yes we were loosing infantry players like hell.

Have you considered that it's due to the fact that 2 other similar games have come out in the last month. I personally have been having a blast in War of the Roses and am only back here because i was worried about some of you e-people and Hurricane Sandy. Next month I'll get chivalry as well and while i've enjoyed CRPG for quite some time it's very nice to have different playstyles.

CRPG used to be the only option and now it's becoming one of many. If you're noticing dwindling numbers it's due in part the fact that the mod actually has legitimate competition now.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Kafein on October 29, 2012, 03:05:03 pm
Might I redirect you to garison's thread? Maybe it helps you... but hell yeah, point 2 in the ground rules is still great to do
http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/(guide)-how-to-defend-against-archers-xbows-and-not-become-a-statistic/ (http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/(guide)-how-to-defend-against-archers-xbows-and-not-become-a-statistic/)

I think I might have even more to add to this guide. But really the golden rule of fighting archers is "do not fight archers". When you understand that no matter what your setup is (except archer of course), you will never be able to consistently kill archers, you can start concentrating on things you can do.

I'm fine playing like that myself. If you think this is fine too, good for you. It does sound odd some classes have no counter though.


Have you considered that it's due to the fact that 2 other similar games have come out in the last month. I personally have been having a blast in War of the Roses and am only back here because i was worried about some of you e-people and Hurricane Sandy. Next month I'll get chivalry as well and while i've enjoyed CRPG for quite some time it's very nice to have different playstyles.

CRPG used to be the only option and now it's becoming one of many. If you're noticing dwindling numbers it's due in part the fact that the mod actually has legitimate competition now.

But why do infantry players flee, and not ranged ? cRPG still has the best melee, but even the ranged mechanics of WoTR are better. Logically, it's ranged players that would switch.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on October 29, 2012, 03:05:46 pm
I think Chase has made the best point here. Most players are so competent at blocking they don't need to be a 2h hero to be effective at melee, this allows them to go crossbow hybrid (which for me is the hardest class to deal with) or pure archer with a crappy sidearm since they can defend themselves competently without some epic sword. Personally I think low WPF should make the blocking delays with smaller swords much larger to prevent backpedal blocking spam. I've actually just had an idea: Make low proficiency work like it does with ranged. If you've got the strength then you can use your weapon, but if you've not got the WPF you're gonna do fuck all damage with it.

I'd also like to see something done with point blank shooting, if I've gotten within 5 feet of a guy this should be a win for me unless my opponent runs because I've had to evade all the ranged to get up close. While I'll admit point blank shooting does take some ability, it's getting more and more common. Plus up close players like Bagge, Zerobot (u fucker) and Arrowblood amongst others basically instakill me (Fucking ninja armour huh). I did have a thought that when you draw a bow or crossbow you are forced into the zoom mode which obviously decreases FOV and makes it harder to hit moving targets up close, seems a bit radical but just a thought.

As for cavalry I only have issues with HA and sheer volume of cavalry. Of course there's the occasional absurd reach from 1hers (seriously scimitars are not longer than a nodachi) but that's been around for ages and yes, I should bring my spear in those situations. Horse Archers are a tough one to deal with in regards to balance, the entire idea of the class is a problem because it's an extreme version of kiting archers, they control the engagements because of their manoueverability and range. Now you can say archers should deal with them, but the fact is most archers aim for infantry because theyre easier to hit and you cannot rely on a teammate to do something every time. I don't have any ideas for a solution here.

Also many of the issues we have with horsemen would be fixed with better hit detection.

In regards to 2hers; while I appreciate the nerf to greatswords (they were boring) I think the speed of all melee weapons should be increased somewhat. It's a simple change to spice things up and it's difficult to tell how it will work since some of the faster swords like my own katana are very fast. It will however definitely increase the skill involved simply to defend yourself against the spammy onslaught of us ninja. I also think a change to how cut/blunt/pierce affects different types of armour would be cool, a rock, paper, scissors system with armour classifications rather than just a number might help. Pierce > mail, blunt > plate, cut > leather or something to that extent.

Just some thoughts, let the trolling begin.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Ylca on October 29, 2012, 03:09:06 pm

But why do infantry players flee, and not ranged ? cRPG still has the best melee, but even the ranged mechanics of WoTR are better. Logically, it's ranged players that would switch.

Because ranged often takes longer to learn than melee given that you have to relearn leading, drop, and a variety of other factors having do do with the way the various builds handle their weapons. The melee skills directly transfer, ranged not quite so much (not to say archery in WOTR is particularly difficult, just different).
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Kafein on October 29, 2012, 03:10:45 pm
Because ranged often takes longer to learn than melee given that you have to relearn leading, drop, and a variety of other factors having do do with the way the various builds handle their weapons. The melee skills directly transfer, ranged not quite so much (not to say archery in WOTR is particularly difficult, just different).

Dis true.

I'd also like to see something done with point blank shooting, if I've gotten within 5 feet of a guy this should be a win for me unless my opponent runs because I've had to evade all the ranged to get up close. While I'll admit point blank shooting does take some ability, it's getting more and more common. Plus up close players like Bagge, Zerobot (u fucker) and Arrowblood amongst others basically instakill me (Fucking ninja armour huh). I did have a thought that when you draw a bow or crossbow you are forced into the zoom mode which obviously decreases FOV and makes it harder to hit moving targets up close, seems a bit radical but just a thought.

Simple : moving your aim should cause a considerable loss of accuracy. It is ridiculous to see people doing 180 turns and immediately shooting with pinpoint accuracy.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter.
Post by: Overdriven on October 29, 2012, 03:15:01 pm
Because ranged often takes longer to learn than melee given that you have to relearn leading, drop, and a variety of other factors having do do with the way the various builds handle their weapons. The melee skills directly transfer, ranged not quite so much (not to say archery in WOTR is particularly difficult, just different).

Yeah this is true enough. I'm fairly decent at melee in chivalry and was ok in WotR beta but I was awful at ranged and likewise in chivalry just because it was quite different (in a good way).
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: cmp on October 29, 2012, 03:18:57 pm
Have you considered that it's due to the fact that 2 other similar games have come out in the last month.
...
CRPG used to be the only option and now it's becoming one of many. If you're noticing dwindling numbers it's due in part the fact that the mod actually has legitimate competition now.

Have you considered that it's due to the fact that 2 other similar games have come out in the last month.

Some competition that is.
War of the Roses is well on the way to its grave... at launch it peaked at ~3k unique players daily, which is lower then Warband after years. After less than a month it struggles to peak at 1k (http://store.steampowered.com/stats/), which is much lower than cRPG alone.
Chivalry will probably do better (because of the existing fan base and because it's a better game than WotR in nearly every aspect), but so far it didn't really affect Warband or cRPG player count. The only games that have caused noticeable drops are Skyrim and Guild Wars 2.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Ylca on October 29, 2012, 03:25:06 pm
Some competition that is.
War of the Roses is well on the way to its grave... at launch it peaked at ~3k unique players daily, which is lower then Warband after years. After less than a month it struggles to peak at 1k (http://store.steampowered.com/stats/), which is much lower than cRPG alone.
Chivalry will probably do better (because of the existing fan base and because it's a better game than WotR in nearly every aspect), but so far it didn't really affect Warband or cRPG player count. The only games that have caused noticeable drops are Skyrim and Guild Wars 2.

War of the Roses sold quite a few copies, makes regular patches, and still gets very good media coverage. Chivalry i haven't tried yet, so i can't comment on but from the videos looks quite good. I wasn't trying to insult CRPG i was just pointing out that these options didn't exist before and now they do. Keep in mind in addition to the people who are trying out this game because they're need a change from CRPG there are also others who will find either of the 2 new games and never find CRPG because they've think they've found their niche and don't need to search anymore.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: Tzar on October 29, 2012, 03:32:08 pm
Im sitting on a badass gamer rig which i waisted lots of money on yet i find myself still only playing cRPG for the last 2 years.....  :?



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Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
Post by: cmp on October 29, 2012, 03:32:56 pm
War of the Roses sold quite a few copies, makes regular patches, and still gets very good media coverage. Chivalry i haven't tried yet, so i can't comment on but from the videos looks quite good. I wasn't trying to insult CRPG i was just pointing out that these options didn't exist before and now they do. Keep in mind in addition to the people who are trying out this game because they're need a change from CRPG there are also others who will find either of the 2 new games and never find CRPG because they've think they've found their niche and don't need to search anymore.

I know you're not insulting cRPG, I'm just saying that "infantry players fleeing" is not really related to the competition (unless the numbers are so small I can't see them in the statistics).
Besides, I think it's good that there are more medieval themed games; we might not get players directly from them, but the niche getting bigger is not a bad thing.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.) nvm patch out!
Post by: Kafein on October 29, 2012, 03:34:51 pm
Actually yes I think WoTR and Chivalry, with the amount of cRPG people playing them, might offer great advertisement for cRPG. Those games are more widely known and get a lot of media attention (despite, at least for WoTR, their bad results), unlike a mod for an obscure turkish game. This is a good opportunity for doing something, or just waiting for bonerfart, erm, Bannerlord.
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.) nvm patch out!
Post by: Thomek on October 29, 2012, 05:05:55 pm
I'll just lock this one, and revive it in a year! :D

Now.. how do I lock it??
Title: Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.) nvm patch out!
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 31, 2012, 06:49:21 am
I'll just lock this one, and revive it in a year! :D

Now.. how do I lock it??
Nice move to lock the thread when cmp came to talk about the real statistics (not your bs ones). Didn't even see these last posts until now.

Well anyhow... Happy reviving on the thread. We will see if you can do it after I lock it 8-)