Author Topic: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.) nvm patch out!  (Read 9753 times)

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Offline Thomek

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #120 on: October 29, 2012, 01:35:16 am »
0
ITT: Upset 2h/pole bundle of stickss whom have somehow managed to convince themselves that ranged classes are easier to play than melee.
I have two characters, a dedicated 2h (easymode) and a pole / crossbowman hybrid. Only a fool would call archery easy to play. (i've tried it many times with looms)
Original poster is clearly retarded, but I must thank him since I laughed heartily.

Lol no I don't think so.

I just think you still should have targets to shoot at that can't shoot back.
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Offline Corsair831

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #121 on: October 29, 2012, 02:29:38 am »
+2
Lol no I don't think so.

I just think you still should have targets to shoot at that can't shoot back.

that doesn't make any sense
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Offline Thomek

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #122 on: October 29, 2012, 02:34:03 am »
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Yes we were loosing infantry players like hell.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #123 on: October 29, 2012, 02:40:18 am »
+2
Funny just bought and played chivalry. Second medieval game I've now played that does ranged better than crpg (WotR being other). Handing archers a sword, slowing them down whilst moving with a bow and making them slower in general actually makes them work quite well. They also don't have a random crosshair. The good archers are still killer archers. This is regardless of tdm/conquest/battle. Getting tired of people saying giving archers melee capabilities is such a bad thing. In chilvalry archers have to stand and fight if they are charged down. I've had a few try to run on me but I can chase them and swipe them with a 2h sword easily. However cause they're so quick they can be a pain in the arse to fight in melee. But it's a good thing. It teaches them to fight and not run.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 02:46:17 am by Overdriven »

Offline Joker86

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #124 on: October 29, 2012, 04:07:14 am »
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I have read only the first few posts, so sorry if the discussion has developed further. All I will do is posting my personal opinion on that matter and on your OP.

1. Cavalry and archers are not OP. There are only too many of them, making them look like OP. In fact they are UP.

2. There are two reasons why nerfing is not a good solution. Reason 1 is that the game is already nerfed down to hell. Reason 2 is, that although those classes are nerfed to the ground, they are still popular. So another nerf won't help it.

3. I know you don't believe in the solution, but changing the game mode from battle to conquest would perhaps not instantly fix all issues, but sure as hell it would improve things a lot. And I don't think it's that unlikely they will implement it (given they WANT), they already have implemented a lot of fantastic stuff.

4. There are also a few other ideas which would help the whole matter, for example implementing a well working commander feature (admittedy this IS very unlikely  :rolleyes: ), or buffing infantry instead of nerfing the other classes. For example an armour buff is pretty much welcomed by the majority of the community

5. A nice side effect of the conquest mode would be, that some UP classes like cavalry and archers could get buffed again  :wink:


The problem we are facing has a lot of different reasons, be it the average skill level of the community, medieval warfare never meant to be fair (thus making it difficult to implement in a fair game, e.g. a working rock-paper-scissors-system), the higher need of infantry to play in a team or the weird effect that the effectivity of cavalry and archers raises the more there is of them, without the need of actually playing together, and finally the already mentioned problem of the game mode asking a goal ("kill all enemies") of classes which don't really have the tools for it (infantry vs. kiting ranged). Even the upkeep system is a part of the problem, as it doesn't really fullfill its purpose as equipment limitation and thus forced the developers to keep the viability of different items on different levels to encourage/duscourage the use of certain items. There is no way lowering some stats could help those problems.

I am honestly disappointed of what I heard of the new patch, because just nerfing DGS/GGS, Rus Bow, Heavy Lance and other popular items and buffing a few alternatives, or buffing archer armour to make them slower spposedly, is a solution which is to compare with sawing off the too long legs of a chair to prevent it of wobbling, just to create another pair of too long legs, until the chair has no legs left. It lacks imagination and basic understanding of the problem. A few of those changes were reasonable, but at the moment we have different problems, like Thomek noticed very well.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 04:18:19 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline SMEGMAR

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #125 on: October 29, 2012, 05:11:39 am »
0
Lol no I don't think so.

I just think you still should have targets to shoot at that can't shoot back.

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Offline Thomek

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #126 on: October 29, 2012, 05:17:43 am »
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(click to show/hide)

Well I know :) And I also think those are great ideas!  :rolleyes:
It's just that I don't think they are realistic atm.. Good shit, but really not gonna happen very soon. (Or who knows?)

Anyway.. the action I suggested was simple things that could be done NOW. They are not going to replace dreams of conquest..
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Offline Vibe

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Re: My last post on the matter.
« Reply #127 on: October 29, 2012, 08:34:04 am »
+4
Can everyone please add their main char's class to their posts?
Just for the lulz :mrgreen:

As a kiting archer: OMG NERF SHIELDS!

please remove archer kiting

- sincerely, a shielder

Offline Kafein

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Re: My last post on the matter.
« Reply #128 on: October 29, 2012, 10:50:00 am »
+2
please remove archer kiting

- sincerely, a shielder

+1 that


and add "thrower"

Now I think I've tried everything, still haven't found a counter to archers.

Offline Moncho

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Re: My last post on the matter.
« Reply #129 on: October 29, 2012, 10:57:32 am »
0
+1 that


and add "thrower"

Now I think I've tried everything, still haven't found a counter to archers.

Might I redirect you to garison's thread? Maybe it helps you... but hell yeah, point 2 in the ground rules is still great to do
http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/(guide)-how-to-defend-against-archers-xbows-and-not-become-a-statistic/

Offline Arrowblood

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #130 on: October 29, 2012, 01:54:38 pm »
+1
your posts suck.
I still havent figured out what wrong with him is.

Offline Ylca

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #131 on: October 29, 2012, 03:03:43 pm »
+2
Yes we were loosing infantry players like hell.

Have you considered that it's due to the fact that 2 other similar games have come out in the last month. I personally have been having a blast in War of the Roses and am only back here because i was worried about some of you e-people and Hurricane Sandy. Next month I'll get chivalry as well and while i've enjoyed CRPG for quite some time it's very nice to have different playstyles.

CRPG used to be the only option and now it's becoming one of many. If you're noticing dwindling numbers it's due in part the fact that the mod actually has legitimate competition now.

Offline Kafein

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Re: My last post on the matter.
« Reply #132 on: October 29, 2012, 03:05:03 pm »
+2
Might I redirect you to garison's thread? Maybe it helps you... but hell yeah, point 2 in the ground rules is still great to do
http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/(guide)-how-to-defend-against-archers-xbows-and-not-become-a-statistic/

I think I might have even more to add to this guide. But really the golden rule of fighting archers is "do not fight archers". When you understand that no matter what your setup is (except archer of course), you will never be able to consistently kill archers, you can start concentrating on things you can do.

I'm fine playing like that myself. If you think this is fine too, good for you. It does sound odd some classes have no counter though.


Have you considered that it's due to the fact that 2 other similar games have come out in the last month. I personally have been having a blast in War of the Roses and am only back here because i was worried about some of you e-people and Hurricane Sandy. Next month I'll get chivalry as well and while i've enjoyed CRPG for quite some time it's very nice to have different playstyles.

CRPG used to be the only option and now it's becoming one of many. If you're noticing dwindling numbers it's due in part the fact that the mod actually has legitimate competition now.

But why do infantry players flee, and not ranged ? cRPG still has the best melee, but even the ranged mechanics of WoTR are better. Logically, it's ranged players that would switch.

Offline Mr_Oujamaflip

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Re: My last post on the matter. (Please do something about Balance.)
« Reply #133 on: October 29, 2012, 03:05:46 pm »
+1
I think Chase has made the best point here. Most players are so competent at blocking they don't need to be a 2h hero to be effective at melee, this allows them to go crossbow hybrid (which for me is the hardest class to deal with) or pure archer with a crappy sidearm since they can defend themselves competently without some epic sword. Personally I think low WPF should make the blocking delays with smaller swords much larger to prevent backpedal blocking spam. I've actually just had an idea: Make low proficiency work like it does with ranged. If you've got the strength then you can use your weapon, but if you've not got the WPF you're gonna do fuck all damage with it.

I'd also like to see something done with point blank shooting, if I've gotten within 5 feet of a guy this should be a win for me unless my opponent runs because I've had to evade all the ranged to get up close. While I'll admit point blank shooting does take some ability, it's getting more and more common. Plus up close players like Bagge, Zerobot (u fucker) and Arrowblood amongst others basically instakill me (Fucking ninja armour huh). I did have a thought that when you draw a bow or crossbow you are forced into the zoom mode which obviously decreases FOV and makes it harder to hit moving targets up close, seems a bit radical but just a thought.

As for cavalry I only have issues with HA and sheer volume of cavalry. Of course there's the occasional absurd reach from 1hers (seriously scimitars are not longer than a nodachi) but that's been around for ages and yes, I should bring my spear in those situations. Horse Archers are a tough one to deal with in regards to balance, the entire idea of the class is a problem because it's an extreme version of kiting archers, they control the engagements because of their manoueverability and range. Now you can say archers should deal with them, but the fact is most archers aim for infantry because theyre easier to hit and you cannot rely on a teammate to do something every time. I don't have any ideas for a solution here.

Also many of the issues we have with horsemen would be fixed with better hit detection.

In regards to 2hers; while I appreciate the nerf to greatswords (they were boring) I think the speed of all melee weapons should be increased somewhat. It's a simple change to spice things up and it's difficult to tell how it will work since some of the faster swords like my own katana are very fast. It will however definitely increase the skill involved simply to defend yourself against the spammy onslaught of us ninja. I also think a change to how cut/blunt/pierce affects different types of armour would be cool, a rock, paper, scissors system with armour classifications rather than just a number might help. Pierce > mail, blunt > plate, cut > leather or something to that extent.

Just some thoughts, let the trolling begin.

Offline Ylca

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Re: My last post on the matter.
« Reply #134 on: October 29, 2012, 03:09:06 pm »
0

But why do infantry players flee, and not ranged ? cRPG still has the best melee, but even the ranged mechanics of WoTR are better. Logically, it's ranged players that would switch.

Because ranged often takes longer to learn than melee given that you have to relearn leading, drop, and a variety of other factors having do do with the way the various builds handle their weapons. The melee skills directly transfer, ranged not quite so much (not to say archery in WOTR is particularly difficult, just different).