People would have to transition, that might cause rage problems.Thats my entire point. Make them as fast and accurate as they are now, but force them to have a melee weapon and allow them to have armor. Same archery strength, more melee strength, but less kiting capabilities.
But, the main reason archers have no melee skills is because they want to be as accurate and as fast as possible while shooting, so they pump into WM. And archery eats wpf like it's a bag of chips, so there is no real hybridization to mess around with.
Sounds dreadfully OP, because non scrub archers can do this with tunic over mail class armor already with a horn bow and perform great. People just choose not to do this because the Rus Bow is brokenly overpowered, that's all.I don't see all the Rus Bowers as overpowered. My idea wouldn't make archery itself stronger, it would just change the way they deal with enemies closing in. Overall this will grant archers who are good at melee a bit better performance, but I don't mind.
As much as I like your idea, I dont see archers suddenly going : MNJAMNJAM---MELEE.Well, if they cannot reach sprint speed with their bow and have a forced slot for a melee weapon. There is very little reason to not take a melee weapon. Having decent melee skills, having a melee weapon, and having to switch to it a lot, will most likely greatly encourage fighting in melee. You see this with crossbowmen. They don't really have much reason to take 2 stacks of bolts so they mostly have a 1 slot weapon. Combined with them being able to wear decent armor, spare points for PS, having wpf to spare, they kite a lot less.
Crossbowmen also kite less because it takes far longer to reload than archers.
I do support giving archers a buff for melee. It doesn't mean they won't kite but it gives them a far better option to melee instead of kiting.
Slot system and wpf requirements/repairs killed hybrids. I was one back then, carrying a longsword doing fine. Now is just meh..^ this
Reduce their accuracy. They will need go closer and miss more often. They will have same problems like infantry all time hearing hooves so they cannot predict if it is friend or foe.
Also I think about removal of damage dependent on wpf only Pd should matter for better hybridisation.
i disagree with free melee slot . slots are the basis of this mechanic system.
Depends what slots you're talking about. Four weapon slots are warband default but items taking more than one slot is something exclusive to cRPG and there was a time when we played without it and I loved that time.
In my eyes both slot system and non-sheatable tag will remain bad changes. Realistic, maybe. Somewhat good for balance, maybe. Pain in the ass, that's for sure.
I think he meant having one of the existing slots be melee exclusive for archers, which would limit an archers's choices, but encourage melee. Noone is giving free slots to anyone.
-drastically decreasing the speed with bow out will punish armor users, because armor already makes you slower. So, reducing the accuracy penalties from wearing armor to a bearable extent, will free archers to replace kiting with melee while being able to shoot properly with the best bows.
Just nerfing the class wont do.
Reduce their accuracy. They will need go closer and miss more often. They will have same problems like infantry all time hearing hooves so they cannot predict if it is friend or foe.That would remove the only difference between a good archer and a bad one.
Slot system and wpf requirements/repairs killed hybrids.Bullshiieet.
Slot system and wpf requirements/repairs killed hybrids. I was one back then, carrying a longsword doing fine. Now is just meh..
Even on level 30 archers already now can have a nice PS and some points into melee.Yep, that's why nerfing kiting and forcing melee capabilities are required to stop kiting and to make the game better.
Problem is that most archers will rather max out athletics and wm, even on higher levels, just so they can kite instead of fight.
There are viable archer hybrids that can fight back, without hindering the WPF too much, but I guess most people like to play like cowards.
10 wpf difference that one will get by going from 18/24 to 18/27 is negligible, waste of points that could've gone to PS.
10 wpf difference that one will get by going from 18/24 to 18/27 is negligible, waste of points that could've gone to PS.
There are viable archer hybrids that can fight back, without hindering the WPF too much, but I guess most people like to play like cowards.
Even on level 30 archers already now can have a nice PS and some points into melee.
Problem is that most archers will rather max out athletics and wm, even on higher levels, just so they can kite instead of fight.
There are viable archer hybrids that can fight back, without hindering the WPF too much, but I guess most people like to play like cowards.
10 wpf difference that one will get by going from 18/24 to 18/27 is negligible, waste of points that could've gone to PS.
Remove kiting and do so that the closer to your target you are the less damage you do, if possible, so a facehugging my old friendcher would glance on his headshot and a good archer with a decent aim will onehit guys miles away.Think about your suggestion for another moment. Is that really what you want?
Think about your suggestion for another moment. Is that really what you want?Yes
Yes
Remove kiting and do so that the closer to your target you are the less damage you do, if possible, so a facehugging my old friendcher would glance on his headshot and a good archer with a decent aim will onehit guys miles away.I much prefer having archers who are close to the main group, myself.
Then I don't think you realize how your suggestion would play out, since it would encourage kiting even more. If every step someone takes towards me as an archer reduces my potential damage, I'm just going to keep running further and further away.If you take an arrow from a mile away you're either stationary, running in a straight line, or really unlucky, I said nerf close range (only talking actual facehug range here) AND slow 'em down in general.
Also it doesn't take a genius to figure out the next round of 'nerf archery' threads.
"OMG I just took 80% damage from an archer a mile away, blah blah blah no chance to defend myself nerf archers"
Sorry but it's a really bad suggestion.
Tennoth is a perfect example that not only is it possible to be a really good archer and also carry a usefull melee weapon but also show that unlike him people just tend to min max an just kite instead since its more easy for them if they dunno how to fight in melee..
I like your suggestion Teeth but lets not forgot that many archers do it simply because they cant Manuel block or cant be arsed to learn it.
Remove kiting and do so that the closer to your target you are the less damage you do, if possible, so a facehugging my old friendcher would glance on his headshot and a good archer with a decent aim will onehit guys miles away.
Please change title to: How to make archery more fun for everyone (that wants to dictate how archers can play).
I understand archers want to keep their power, as right now it's "how to stop archers from effectively dictating everything the other classes do".
I understand archers want to keep their power, as right now it's "how to stop archers from effectively dictating everything the other classes do".
We all remember your overpowered archer alt with 1-3 kd. It's clear that archers are extremely overpowered.
So when I plug 4 to 7 shots into a heavy armored high strength opponent, and it doesn't kill them, that's me dictating how they play? I get run down by plenty of melee, and it takes most 1 or 2 hits to kill me. Lately, its a 1 shot more and more. 7 IF down the drain... This idea that all archers kite on the reg, and well, is retarded. It's also not their 'power'. No one thing is any class' 'power'. The more little options for variation you take away from any class, the shittier and more unilateral that class becomes.
On other words archery was not overpowered in your mighty hands?
How is it even possible..
No it's not all unrelated. You're just arguing your points without genuinely considering anyone else's, Kafein.
Okay this time I will also argue about the color of oranges if you want.
You're also confusing the causality of the kiting behavior. Archers kite because they get chased. Melee is the impetus of the kiting behavior. Those classes don't -have- to do any of that hiding you mentioned, because they are obviously chasing archers for a 'kiting problem' to exist in the first place. At least you have cover to use against the missile fire. If an archer doesn't have range on his side, he has no cover from melee.
In short, you are saying melee either have to hide and do nothing useful, or chase archers.
An archer with a correct build is constantly "under melee cover" since he's shooting from far away, and he can do what he is best at while being virtually immune to all infantry, shooting. No melee class can protect itself and attack at the same time, especially against ranged attacks.
There's little point being dedicated archer if you -have- to stand and fight every time someone decides to run at you. If all your points are in archery then being forced to switch to a weapon you have neither good damage nor speed with is stupid. I go to melee almost every round and it mostly ends up being a wasted effort because, if you trade even hits with a melee character you lose out on damage and very likely die first. Not to mention your swings are slower, so good luck keeping even hits with them.
What I want is archers that fight back with decent melee abilities. Of course in the current system it's horrible, but it doesn't has to.
What you want is for archers to have an upper limit on how much they can benefit from making good judgments as players. by forcing a need for hybridization. If any char (melee or ranged) is being shot at, it's a good judgment call to get behind cover or start dodging. At least you can hear arrows coming. Plate wearers make less noise.
There's plenty of good judgments to be made even if you can't run away from half the server all day. I'd even say playing an archer that can't kite is much more interesting, as pretty much everything in the game is more interesting than running. Furthermore, good judgment usually comes with several options that are not evident. The decision between kiting and *something else* right is non-existent, as there is virtually no tradeoff for running away. That's just what all experienced players do, exactly like all experienced players will try to dodge projectiles coming at them or hide.
An interesting gameplay element however, is determining where you will place yourself. An archer that can't rely on running to stay alive the whole round has to stay close to his team, or far enough not to be in danger. But only taking this into account will not lead him to good firing positions either.
It's not hard to type, "you go the other way while I chase the my old friendcher into you," in team chat.Think about that for a second, you know archers aren't sheep right? And what would happen while you were typing eh?
In every class the individual should have the choice of being dedicated or hybridized. You would say it's more interesting to play a feasible hybrid archer. Good for you, I would also, but what's interesting for some is not by any necessity for others. If someone want's to max their athletics and one weapon type then that's their choice. There's no such thing as a correct build.That's where you're wrong. The choice of being a dedicated archer fucks everyone else over, therefore it should be a gimmick build. Not more viable than an archer with melee capabilities. That's why horse archers aren't stronger archery wise than foot archers. It would majorly fuck up the game if that was the case. Yet kiting pure archers are stronger than archers with melee skills, there's the problem.
Anyway I've said my bit.Excellent.
Yet kiting pure archers are stronger than archers with melee skills, there's the problem.I disagree, archers who are able to hold their own in melee are clearly better & more successful overall that most archers who do nothing but run from melee. The 'pure archers' have a slight edge at range over more hybrid oriented archers (as they should), but you can't tell me that the "kiting" archers are more successful than their counterparts. I very rarely see one of those archers come out with an end-of-round clutch.
That's why horse archers aren't stronger archery wise than foot archers. It would majorly fuck up the game if that was the case. Yet kiting pure archers are stronger than archers with melee skills, there's the problem.
Yea that's good example : Archers kitting is like horse archery without penalty (horse archery skill, and accuracy and dmg penalties) Foot archers does exactly the same job as horse archer fucking up balance - without any penalty
I disagree, archers who are able to hold their own in melee are clearly better & more successful overall that most archers who do nothing but run from melee. The 'pure archers' have a slight edge at range over more hybrid oriented archers (as they should), but you can't tell me that the "kiting" archers are more successful than their counterparts. I very rarely see one of those archers come out with an end-of-round clutch.On my side of the ocean it happens a lot that there are multiple archers left on one team, who spent the entire round on a hill or kiting. These clutch rounds against larger groups of players regardless their class. Maybe horseman, ranged and infantry together could beat kiting archers, but most horses are dead and any ranged left loses against a group of archers. I've seen 4 shielders get lamed to death by 3 pure archers. I rarely see a hybrid archer at all, let alone doing better than pure archers. They just run into different directions, a shielder that follows one gets shot in the back by the other etc. 2 minutes later the archers win.
It should also be said that all archers kite to some extent, just like most smart players of other classes. Have you ever decided not to get stuck in in a losing battle during a round and chose to go a different way? Aren't you technically kiting that group? The thing people have a problem with is those who take the 'kiting' to the extreme, and in those cases no, I don't think they are much more successful than any other archer. Annoying? Yes. Effective? Not really.
It should also be said that all archers kite to some extent, just like most smart players of other classes. Have you ever decided not to get stuck in in a losing battle during a round and chose to go a different way? Aren't you technically kiting that group? The thing people have a problem with is those who take the 'kiting' to the extreme, and in those cases no, I don't think they are much more successful than any other archer. Annoying? Yes. Effective? Not really.I already touched upon this in the OP, what I am specifically referring to in the case of archers, is running away for individual players. Run away, shoot if they get enough space. Run away again. If the chasing individual gives up, they proceed to shoot him in his back. Ofcourse if 20 infantry come your way you run, but this is not like that. Just choosing to run away from whatever it is chasing to shoot some more arrows everytime as long as they still have arrows or it's not delaying.
I'm sure you'll eventually get around the idea of ad hominem and why it is not helping you.
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The archer
That's an archer. He's gay.
The problem
Gay kiting.
My proposed solution
Remove archers.
visitors can't see pics , please register or loginSigned
The archer
That's an archer. He's gay.
The problem
Gay kiting.
My proposed solution
Remove archers.
what is wrong with kiting ? i just dont understand.You can take an 18/21 1h build with light armor, and still not be able to catch a ton of archers. It's silly.
you take heavy armour, because you're bad .... heavy armour = advantages, you're really hard to kill, disadvantages = you're slow ....
Strength: 18
Agility: 27
Skills to attributes: 14
Athletics: 9
Power Draw: 6
Weapon Master: 5
Archery: 152With a +3 bow and +3 arrows, you will hit most player quite hard. This will also allow you to outrun pretty much any dedicated melee class in the game.
You can take an 18/21 1h build with light armor, and still not be able to catch a ton of archers. It's silly.
At level 33, you can do this:Code: [Select]Strength: 18With a +3 bow and +3 arrows, you will hit most player quite hard. This will also allow you to outrun pretty much any dedicated melee class in the game.
Agility: 27
Skills to attributes: 14
Athletics: 9
Power Draw: 6
Weapon Master: 5
Archery: 152
"18/24 in padded cloth with a shield is never going to catch 18/27 in plainclothes without one. In addition to not being able to catch that archer, you also now stand to die in two teamwounds, or even a couple teambumps.
At level 33, you can do this: "
if he's level 33, and you are level 33, you can be 18/24 not 18/21
18/24 in padded cloth with a shield is never going to catch 18/27 in plainclothes without one. In addition to not being able to catch that archer, you also now stand to die in two teamwounds, or even a couple teambumps.
In addition, having extra levels as a melee class does not suddenly make you immune from nearly every other melee class in the game. It does make you quite a bit more powerful, but you are still forced to close distance to engage. This makes it possible for any other melee specced character to kill you.
well i dont know what you're all whining about, im light armour 18/21 hoplite and i have no problems catching archers before patch, now it's just a joke they're so slow
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The archer
That's an archer. See what he's carrying? Yes, that is a sword. See what he's wearing? That's right, armor.
The problem
I hate archers. Not because they shoot at me and occasionally kill me, that is to be expected if you're a retard who refuses to use a shield. It's what they do and are supposed to do...
Fighting is good gameplay, running isn't. Remove running and replace....
Replace slot system with encumbrance system. Done.
i see more something like that :
when u bent your bow you lost all your athletics then u shot your bow is back in passiv position and your ath is back
and about the melee weapon i ask that since a while
imo archers started to kite when the slot weapon system appear coz they lost their way to defend
Replace slot system with encumbrance system. Done.
If you want us to melee, most pure dedicated archers use a Rus Bow or greater, and are interested in being pure archers and want a damaging bow. This means I have to use a 2 slot bow which means I'm restricted to using 0 slot weapons.
This means I have no reason to spend any points into one-handed profiency nor to fight in melee unless I have no other choice (majority of team is dead and outnumbered).
I can actually melee decently but unless I have a better 0 slot with some actual weapon reach or a 1 slot 1he I'm not going to stop kiting or split my proficiency and melee unless I have no chance of winning.
<- Mindset of a rus bow archer
A fun and currently possible build is:That's the current build on my archer alt. Works like a boss. Especially if you can change between Longbow and Horn bow and 1 slot or 2 slot melee weapon, depending on the map/number of players/side (if you're on siege). Even an unloomed 0-slot hammer can be a beast with 8 PS.
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)Strength: 24
- Agility: 12
- Hit points: 75
- Skills to attributes: 2
- Ironflesh: 5
- Power Strike: 8
- Athletics: 4
- Power Draw: 8
Would be pretty cool to see the mechanics encourage such a thing ^^ Personal preference is a HBS, Yumi and Bods
- Weapon Master: 4
The archer
That's an archer. He's gay.
The problem
Gay kiting.
My proposed solution
Remove archers.
Bump for one solution with no obvious issues.
ONLY "archer limit" can solve this problem. Nerfs cause only ruin game for archers.
Like WOT team balance system.
So if theres to much Archers in the server you can't play?
What if theres enough in every server?
The poor Archer won't be able to shot his little arrows :? :cry:
In my eyes it does have issues. It's not a bad solution at all, but it's nothing I would get exited about either.An archer sacrificing a few points for melee WPF and PS is little different than an infantryman sacrificing a few points for throwing WPF and PT.
I don't like archers being almost as good in melee as infantry. If you don't lower their ranged capabilities in exchange for the increased melee skills, the class would be OP.
How to make archery more fun for everyone :i might be sorry for this, but i agree with what this archer is saying.
archer side :
- buff missile speed
- put back jump shot (but keep this heavy weight on quivers to counter kite)
infantrie side :
- buff medium and heavy armor
- nerf 10 or 20% body shot (keep head shot dmg)