Poll

Remove kiting and replace it with fighting

Yay
121 (81.2%)
Nay
28 (18.8%)

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Author Topic: How to make archery more fun for everyone  (Read 8240 times)

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Offline Rextard

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2012, 12:02:35 am »
+1
Shub: If you're being shot at by multiple ranged on different angles, its no different than being attacked in melee from multiple angles. A shield doesn't save you from either unless you're quick and accurate with your shield aiming and timing. If the attacks are synced up, it won't save you anyway. There's nothing stopping most melee players from picking up a crossbow, with no skill point or wpf investment, and firing back at archers. It's about the same as archers picking up a weapon and trying to melee.

Kafein: Hiding behind cover isn't being useless, it's avoidance of being made useless by getting lit up. Staying there the whole round is useless sure, but so is any other form of risking nothing and doing nothing.

Archers can't protect themselves from ranged or melee attacks with a bow out. At least you can cancel an attack straight into a block in melee.  As it is if you get caught in melee with your bow out and you didn't see it coming, you're pretty well auto-boned. Making archers better at melee won't change the time it takes to get a weapon out when already being melee'd to death.

Good judgments come from making appropriate choices, options don't have to be less than plainly evident for different ones to make more or less sense in different situations.

Wanting archers to fight back with decent melee abilities, is still wanting them to fight back with melee. In every class the individual should have the choice of being dedicated or hybridized. You would say it's more interesting to play a feasible hybrid archer. Good for you, I would also, but what's interesting for some is not by any necessity for others. If someone want's to max their athletics and one weapon type then that's their choice. There's no such thing as a correct build.

Running is choosing where to place yourself. There are indeed tradeoffs from running, such as becoming isolated from your team and losing the protection of friendly melee.  And arrows aren't infinite. Melee attacks are.  It's not hard to type, "you go the other way while I chase the my old friendcher into you," in team chat. Slowing down archers across the board will make it harder for the archers that do stick with melee groups to keep up, especially if they're high str builds.

Battle also has motf, which makes running away fairly obsolete. Once it pops up. Motf coming up quicker, or being the focus of battle from the get go, would negate the problem of endless kiting. I think it'd be a far fairer solution than forcing all archers to play a melee-ready archer.

A delayer is a delayer. But a group of archers if they're all that's left at the end of the round, shouldn't be penalized into having to melee to make it easier on melee. Anyway I've said my bit. Hopefully a good solution comes about to the kind of kiting you're talking about. But I don't think changing all archers, yet again, is the solution.

Offline Teeth

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2012, 12:52:15 am »
0
Just reading the last two pages has reinforced my opinion of Kafein, who in the face of great ignorance and retardation, is able to keep calm and discuss in a thorough, yet focused way. You deserve a cookie for saying exactly what needed to be said.

It's not hard to type, "you go the other way while I chase the my old friendcher into you," in team chat.
Think about that for a second, you know archers aren't sheep right? And what would happen while you were typing eh?

In every class the individual should have the choice of being dedicated or hybridized. You would say it's more interesting to play a feasible hybrid archer. Good for you, I would also, but what's interesting for some is not by any necessity for others. If someone want's to max their athletics and one weapon type then that's their choice. There's no such thing as a correct build.
That's where you're wrong. The choice of being a dedicated archer fucks everyone else over, therefore it should be a gimmick build. Not more viable than an archer with melee capabilities. That's why horse archers aren't stronger archery wise than foot archers. It would majorly fuck up the game if that was the case. Yet kiting pure archers are stronger than archers with melee skills, there's the problem.

Anyway I've said my bit.
Excellent.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 12:57:41 am by SgtTeeh »

Offline Rextard

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2012, 01:34:13 am »
+2
Not all pure archers are kiters.

Try playing archery for a couple years and readjust to it every few months because people whine about it, then call me an ignorant retard.

Offline MrShine

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2012, 03:20:47 am »
+1
Yet kiting pure archers are stronger than archers with melee skills, there's the problem.
I disagree, archers who are able to hold their own in melee are clearly better & more successful overall that most archers who do nothing but run from melee.  The 'pure archers' have a slight edge at range over more hybrid oriented archers (as they should), but you can't tell me that the "kiting" archers are more successful than their counterparts.  I very rarely see one of those archers come out with an end-of-round clutch.

It should also be said that all archers kite to some extent, just like most smart players of other classes.  Have you ever decided not to get stuck in in a losing battle during a round and chose to go a different way?  Aren't you technically kiting that group?  The thing people have a problem with is those who take the 'kiting' to the extreme, and in those cases no, I don't think they are much more successful than any other archer.  Annoying?  Yes.  Effective?  Not really.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 04:02:44 am by MrShine »
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2012, 03:46:23 am »
0
nerf strength builds: archers complain that it takes 5 arrows, it takes balanced melee 10 hits to kill them so we all hate str builds.  make strength only give .5 HP per level instead of 1, reduce powerstrike and make weapon master give more damage in comparison but fizzle out at about 140 WPF in a melee weapon.  rewards balanced/agi builds fucks over pure strength stacking 0 WM idiots that EVERY class not just archers find retarded

completely remove the ability of archers to run fast or do 180 pr0 skillshots:  melee already got nerfed to limit this kind of animation abuse

reduce the damage on the rus bow:  this weapon sees 80+ percent usage statistics on NA and EU for bows if I recall, its blatantly OP since bodkins got pierce, nerf the shit out of it somehow, just lowering damage would be a good start.  but its too fast accurate and strong overall and disgustingly overused with the kite builds.

reduce the damage on heirloomed arrows:  a fully loomed archer has an enormous advantage compared to any other class with looms.  their bows and arrows stack with bonuses that get amplified with WPF and PD to a much higher degree then melee classes and you start to get rus bow archers that 2 shot medium-heavy infantry with ease.  don't tell me this is impossible, because it happens to me and countless others daily.

scale down WPF-damage gain or whatever the fuck it is for archers:  high level archers that pump WM do absurd amounts of damage, and raising PD for a harder hitting less accurate build which could be considered fun or different for a lot of players.. is not viable.  rebalance WPF and PD gains to find more even ground

I shit talk ranged balance in this game constantly, but not as a broad O WOW ARCHER KILLED ME LOL NOOB GO BACK 2 CS.  I think the rus bow has been absurdly overpowered for many, many months, and the popularity statistics, damage testing, and non biased archers will all testament to this.  I think archers scale with looms and levels better then any other class, scale too well, and just looking at the formulas behind archery damage shows why.

and no one.  NO ONE.  can argue that kiting archers who move insanely fast and can 180 shoot on a dime is fun.  its fucking awful.  remove this already with WSE jesus christ

^^ balanced game plz consider
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 03:53:10 am by Smoothrich »
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Offline Shub

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2012, 09:13:09 am »
+1
That's why horse archers aren't stronger archery wise than foot archers. It would majorly fuck up the game if that was the case. Yet kiting pure archers are stronger than archers with melee skills, there's the problem.


Yea that's good example :  Archers kitting is like horse archery without penalty   (horse archery skill, and accuracy and dmg penalties) Foot archers does exactly the same job as horse archer fucking up balance - without any penalty

Offline Grumpy_Nic

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2012, 10:17:43 am »
+1
Yea that's good example :  Archers kitting is like horse archery without penalty   (horse archery skill, and accuracy and dmg penalties) Foot archers does exactly the same job as horse archer fucking up balance - without any penalty

Thats not true, its not exactly the same. You cannot rear a kiting foot archer with a pike

Offline Teeth

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2012, 11:28:15 am »
0
I disagree, archers who are able to hold their own in melee are clearly better & more successful overall that most archers who do nothing but run from melee.  The 'pure archers' have a slight edge at range over more hybrid oriented archers (as they should), but you can't tell me that the "kiting" archers are more successful than their counterparts.  I very rarely see one of those archers come out with an end-of-round clutch.

It should also be said that all archers kite to some extent, just like most smart players of other classes.  Have you ever decided not to get stuck in in a losing battle during a round and chose to go a different way?  Aren't you technically kiting that group?  The thing people have a problem with is those who take the 'kiting' to the extreme, and in those cases no, I don't think they are much more successful than any other archer.  Annoying?  Yes.  Effective?  Not really.
On my side of the ocean it happens a lot that there are multiple archers left on one team, who spent the entire round on a hill or kiting. These clutch rounds against larger groups of players regardless their class. Maybe horseman, ranged and infantry together could beat kiting archers, but most horses are dead and any ranged left loses against a group of archers. I've seen 4 shielders get lamed to death by 3 pure archers. I rarely see a hybrid archer at all, let alone doing better than pure archers. They just run into different directions, a shielder that follows one gets shot in the back by the other etc. 2 minutes later the archers win.

It makes my cry to watch those ends of rounds and they are not at all uncommon.

It should also be said that all archers kite to some extent, just like most smart players of other classes.  Have you ever decided not to get stuck in in a losing battle during a round and chose to go a different way?  Aren't you technically kiting that group?  The thing people have a problem with is those who take the 'kiting' to the extreme, and in those cases no, I don't think they are much more successful than any other archer.  Annoying?  Yes.  Effective?  Not really.
I already touched upon this in the OP, what I am specifically referring to in the case of archers, is running away for individual players. Run away, shoot if they get enough space. Run away again. If the chasing individual gives up, they proceed to shoot him in his back. Ofcourse if 20 infantry come your way you run, but this is not like that. Just choosing to run away from whatever it is chasing to shoot some more arrows everytime as long as they still have arrows or it's not delaying.

Offline Sylfirus

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2012, 11:44:47 am »
-2
Good idea and good tread !

I really want see all archer with 18/18 build hybrid :)

Offline Cup1d

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2012, 12:23:49 pm »
0
I'm sure you'll eventually get around the idea of ad hominem and why it is not helping you.

1. Kafein, this is not scientific discussion, so I can use any kind of arguments.
2. Any player effectivity add same data for global pool of weapons effectivity. It's just another side of the coin. Bagge on obverse, someone else on reverse.


Teeh - i can make your idea shorter - two qiuvers is max, and no slots please.

And for all who like suggest about kiting - remove «S-key, right swing» tactics at first
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 12:28:22 pm by Cup1d »

Offline Paul

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2012, 12:31:07 pm »
-1
I had the two quiver max idea a long time ago. Shik didn't like it.

Offline POOPHAMMER

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2012, 12:39:51 pm »
0
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The archer
That's an archer. He's gay.

The problem
Gay kiting.

My proposed solution
Remove archers.

This post killed me
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Offline Teeth

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2012, 02:30:40 pm »
0
bump

Offline El_Infante

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2012, 02:35:19 pm »
+1
About a year ago, where slot system was not implemented, every archer had a melee weapon to fight with it. It was more funny. Players adapt to cRPG changes and kitting is the only way that an archer have to play because devs nerfed ranged melee to the ground. Giving all bows one slot will solve the problem, IMHO.

Offline Fartface

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Re: How to make archery more fun for everyone
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2012, 03:37:21 pm »
+3
I just made an 18/18 archer and I have to say it's very effective.
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