How to make archery more fun for everyone

[Adamar]

Tennoth is a perfect example that not only is it possible to be a really good archer and also carry a usefull melee weapon but also show that unlike him people just tend to min max an just kite instead since its more easy for them if they dunno how to fight in melee..

I like your suggestion Teeth but lets not forgot that many archers do it simply because they cant Manuel block or cant be arsed to learn it.

In my experience, archers are in general more skilled in melee than the average meleer.

[Arrowblood]

I need no melee weapon i punsh people to death

[Kafein]

Remove kiting and do so that the closer to your target you are the less damage you do, if possible, so a facehugging my old friendcher would glance on his headshot and a good archer with a decent aim will onehit guys miles away.

That idea is rather bad IMO, but I personally think there should be a minimum range of ~1 meter to use any ranged weapon, firing within that distance of an enemy resulting in a critical failure (crossbow jamming, bow broken, whatever).

That would be a start as it would solve the problem of archers being able to shoot around/over shields while facehugging (there's almost no way to counter that from the shielder's side, as he is locked in block mode)

Similarly, the stun caused by enemies running into archers drawing their bow should be buffed to existence.

[Shub]

yes dmg based on range is bad idea. Why not comment good ideas that are in this thread instead?

- best is Not being able to sprint while having bow out. / drastic speed reduction while having bow

But it might not be enough so other things suggested here also might be taken into use.

[Rextard]

Please change title to: How to make archery more fun for everyone (that wants to dictate how archers can play).

[Vex.]

Good suggestion, but you know then the bitching from the bad melee players about archery being OP cuz they can shoot you and fuck you over in melee. Which is why they nerfed archery so hard in the first place...
I doubt the devs are gonna do anything about it...

[Kafein]

Please change title to: How to make archery more fun for everyone (that wants to dictate how archers can play).

I understand archers want to keep their power, as right now it's "how to stop archers from effectively dictating everything the other classes do".

[Cup1d]

I understand archers want to keep their power, as right now it's "how to stop archers from effectively dictating everything the other classes do".

We all remember your overpowered archer alt with 1-3 kd. It's clear that archers are extremely overpowered.

[Rextard]

I understand archers want to keep their power, as right now it's "how to stop archers from effectively dictating everything the other classes do".

So when I plug 4 to 7 shots into a heavy armored high strength opponent, and it doesn't kill them, that's me dictating how they play? I get run down by plenty of melee, and it takes most 1 or 2 hits to kill me. Lately, its a 1 shot more and more. 7 IF down the drain... This idea that all archers kite on the reg, and well, is retarded. It's also not their 'power'. No one thing is any class' 'power'. The more little options for variation you take away from any class, the shittier and more unilateral that class becomes.

[Shub]

yes versality has to stay. 

- non-loomed arrow/bows has to do more dmg
- str pd archers has to be boosted - imo they should be able to shoot accurately on longer RANGE
- loomed/arrow/bow should deala bit less dmg to CHEST  (me promote headshots not bodyshots;p)
- MW should be re-designed to give a little more points  (this will help in wep versatility and heavier armor for archers)
- running speed with bow out /unsheathed should be drastically lowered / no kiting with bow out sorry .
- speed penalty for heavier armors should be  re-disigned/lowered

[Kafein]

We all remember your overpowered archer alt with 1-3 kd. It's clear that archers are extremely overpowered.

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So when I plug 4 to 7 shots into a heavy armored high strength opponent, and it doesn't kill them, that's me dictating how they play? I get run down by plenty of melee, and it takes most 1 or 2 hits to kill me. Lately, its a 1 shot more and more. 7 IF down the drain... This idea that all archers kite on the reg, and well, is retarded. It's also not their 'power'. No one thing is any class' 'power'. The more little options for variation you take away from any class, the shittier and more unilateral that class becomes.

All of this is unrelated to the issue at hand. Balance problems arise when at round end, a small number of archers can consistently take down a higher number of any other class, using the strenghts of their class (mobility and ranged attack) to their advantage, and negating the abilities of classes designed (as in, the design failed because it doesn't work) to counter archers. Horses are so squishy they die before being able to attack, end even in the odd chance they manage to come into melee range, they are dodged. Shielders are so slow they never catch archers.

Yes archers dictate how everybody else plays because :

- 2h, polearms and shieldless throwers have to get behind cover/shielders or get shot to death
- Horsemen have to hide somewhere else or get shot to death
- Shielders have to keep their shields up and shouldn't advance since this will set them up for crossfire and death.


Actually yes, on some maps crossbowmen have the upper hand over archers, when they manage to find a good camping spot somewhere. But in the end that's equally lame.


As a corollary, you should try to find what class can force archers to change their kiting behavior or even maybe be as useless as melee hiding behind buildings (hint : there is none).

[Cup1d]

On other words archery was not overpowered in your mighty hands?

How is it even possible..

[Rextard]

No it's not all unrelated. You're just arguing your points without genuinely considering anyone else's, Kafein.

You're also confusing the causality of the kiting behavior. Archers kite because they get chased. Melee is the impetus of the kiting behavior. Those classes don't -have- to do any of that hiding you mentioned, because they are obviously chasing archers for a 'kiting problem' to exist in the first place. At least you have cover to use against the missile fire. If an archer doesn't have range on his side, he has no cover from melee.

There's little point being dedicated archer if you -have- to stand and fight every time someone decides to run at you. If all your points are in archery then being forced to switch to a weapon you have neither good damage nor speed with is stupid. I go to melee almost every round and it mostly ends up being a wasted effort because, if you trade even hits with a melee character you lose out on damage and very likely die first. Not to mention your swings are slower, so good luck keeping even hits with them.

What you want is for archers to have an upper limit on how much they can benefit from making good judgments as players. by forcing a need for hybridization. If any char (melee or ranged) is being shot at, it's a good judgment call to get behind cover or start dodging. At least you can hear arrows coming. Plate wearers make less noise.

[Kafein]

On other words archery was not overpowered in your mighty hands?

How is it even possible..

I'm sure you'll eventually get around the idea of ad hominem and why it is not helping you.

No it's not all unrelated. You're just arguing your points without genuinely considering anyone else's, Kafein.

Okay this time I will also argue about the color of oranges if you want.

You're also confusing the causality of the kiting behavior. Archers kite because they get chased. Melee is the impetus of the kiting behavior. Those classes don't -have- to do any of that hiding you mentioned, because they are obviously chasing archers for a 'kiting problem' to exist in the first place. At least you have cover to use against the missile fire. If an archer doesn't have range on his side, he has no cover from melee.

In short, you are saying melee either have to hide and do nothing useful, or chase archers.

An archer with a correct build is constantly "under melee cover" since he's shooting from far away, and he can do what he is best at while being virtually immune to all infantry, shooting. No melee class can protect itself and attack at the same time, especially against ranged attacks.

There's little point being dedicated archer if you -have- to stand and fight every time someone decides to run at you. If all your points are in archery then being forced to switch to a weapon you have neither good damage nor speed with is stupid. I go to melee almost every round and it mostly ends up being a wasted effort because, if you trade even hits with a melee character you lose out on damage and very likely die first. Not to mention your swings are slower, so good luck keeping even hits with them.

What I want is archers that fight back with decent melee abilities. Of course in the current system it's horrible, but it doesn't has to.

What you want is for archers to have an upper limit on how much they can benefit from making good judgments as players. by forcing a need for hybridization. If any char (melee or ranged) is being shot at, it's a good judgment call to get behind cover or start dodging. At least you can hear arrows coming. Plate wearers make less noise.

There's plenty of good judgments to be made even if you can't run away from half the server all day. I'd even say playing an archer that can't kite is much more interesting, as pretty much everything in the game is more interesting than running. Furthermore, good judgment usually comes with several options that are not evident. The decision between kiting and *something else* right is non-existent, as there is virtually no tradeoff for running away. That's just what all experienced players do, exactly like all experienced players will try to dodge projectiles coming at them or hide.

An interesting gameplay element however, is determining where you will place yourself. An archer that can't rely on running to stay alive the whole round has to stay close to his team, or far enough not to be in danger. But only taking this into account will not lead him to good firing positions either.

[Shub]

From Rextard post we can learn that :

Archers  are not chased cause they are kitting but they  are kitting cause they are being chased - HM  lovely .

Rextard that would even make sense if  it was on long range  and some MrPeasantIwannakillarchers would chase them.
but REALITY is they are being chased cause they stun lock you on very close distance , cause they kill u in 3 shots , and they are anoying.
You could even say to ppl that claim something is broken with archery ( and i would say that ) DEAL with it  "noob"  if not ONE thing .

YOU CANT HAVE Combat action that is not counterable thats plain retardnes rex retardess even;p
U cant counter cause its RANGE and u have 120 range not 9999999 .mechanic is BROKEN cause he can run away from your counter . If he would at least stop attacking u while u chase him  - THEN we have a counter. and thats the idea.
every action has its counter and balance counter  : attack vs block/doge  etc  . well excuse me for all fairness there is one counter - called shield but as i have written it doesnt work .

with all respect

-SHUB